Ben Stiller Wants to Make Severance More Quickly—But First, He Needs to Get It Just Right

0:04Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. I'm David Canfield. Today we're kicking off our Emmy nominee interview series with Severance's Ben Stiller. The show is in the lead this year with a whopping 27 nominations, including for Best Drama Series. Ben is nominated there as an executive producer on the show, and he's also nominated for directing the incredible season two finale, Cold Harbor. He joins me today to discuss the long road to season two and what this huge showing on the other side has meant to him. We also discuss the journey to receiving this kind of recognition as a filmmaker, from taking a lengthy acting hiatus to navigating major changes in the industry and how projects can get made.

0:52Ben Stiller, welcome to Little Gold Men. Thank you. It's nice to be here. We are thrilled to have you. 27 Emmy nominations for Severance. That is the most of any show this year. You are personally nominated for both producing and directing the show. How does it feel? Of course, it feels great to have that recognition. I don't know. yeah it's really wonderful i feel like there's so many shows that are being made now and there's so many shows that are really high level that uh to be able to you know be a part of that group is really nice and you know i don't know it's like this stuff it's it's it's you can't control that on the outside that that part of it so um i just try to like kind of appreciate it in the moment and try not to get too caught up in all that.

1:46But it's hard, honestly, because, you know, obviously we do things like this and talk about it a lot. And the work itself is something that is what it is. And kind of we, you know, did complete that a while ago. So in my head, I'm kind of, you know, we're into season three and different things and the challenges of that. So it's always funny kind of the dichotomy between the pain of what you're trying to create for the next season. And then, you know, kind of going around and talking about what you did before. Yeah, I was wondering about that because there was about a three-year gap between seasons one and two for Severance, as has been discussed, I would say, ad nauseum, as I'm sure you've heard.

2:23And that led to a lot of anticipation, a lot of speculation. And obviously you're already coming off of great reviews, huge audience numbers for this season, but I wonder if it also just feels like an affirmation to you that like, yes, the wait was worth it. We knew what we were doing and people responded to it. Well, it is, I think, on a certain level, just the affirmation of when you basically follow your instinct of knowing that you have to make sure something feels right and that you get it to the place you need it to be. The frustration was, for us, it was just that it was taking so long, honestly.

2:59And sometimes I look at the outside factors, which are beyond our control, but then also, I mean, I won't lie, I look at my own process, too. I know Chris Storer, who will shoot an episode in an hour and a half or something on The Bear. On The Bear, yeah. And it's brilliant. I'm like, God damn, why can't I do that? But honestly, the process is what it is, and you just have to kind of stick with that. And as we were going along for season two, knowing that the strike really impacted us badly, but also just in the process of making the show, as the time went on, I really did feel like we just had to kind of stick to our guns and keep going because I knew at the end of the road, there will be an audience for it that is waiting for this and their expectations are high for the fans of the show and you want to just be able to deliver on that.

3:53So that's the conundrum when you're in it. It's not that easy though, because you do feel that, and you start to feel like, oh, wait a minute, it's going to take this much longer and then there's going to be that much more pressure on it for people who will be saying like, oh, we waited this long, I hope it's worth the wait. So you're just kind of stuck with that and you just kind of have to move forward blindly. What do you remember about that period, like the month or two before the season premiered, when you were doing interviews like this, but kind of on the other side of the equation where you don't know how people are going to react?

4:24Again, it has been quite some time. I don't like it. Yeah, because at that point you finished it and it's sort of out of your hands. You've just kind of done what you've done. And it's kind of like that on anything. You finish it and then all of a sudden you have all these new ideas and thoughts. And you go, well, I can't do that because it's over. But it's also that thing of just you want to feel like when you have finished that you've done everything that you could do. And then it's kind of up to everybody else to have their reaction to it. and I remember there was like one day that kind of the, I guess the review embargo was over.

5:05So there was like one morning that I woke up and like kind of got this like flood of, you know, texts and things from people saying that these reviews were out. I mean, it's just my least favorite part of the whole. Yeah. I'll be honest with you, you know, because I don't read reviews, but you know if they're good or they're bad and people will tell you and all that. And at the end of the day, it's like, how can you justify the work, like the opinions, the outside opinion of, you know, of other people on something you've spent years of your life working on? Because if everybody thinks it sucks or they don't like it, does that mean that the last, you know, two years of what you did was, didn't mean anything or was, you know, for naught?

5:45No, it can't be that, you know, and you have to kind of somehow figure out a way to just have that perspective. I think honestly, since I've been in the business a long time and you know usually the response has not been like it is on severance on for most things like i i appreciate it but i also kind of have a perspective on it like well i think that other thing i did that i liked that nobody really was going crazy over was still worth that too so you have to get to a place where what you've made is what it is and that's where the joy comes from is is in making it and trying to make something that's in your head And it then becomes, you know, you're able to realize that.

6:22Yeah. And the way people engage with this stuff now is so much more immediate, sometimes intense. I would say that that was definitely true for season two of Severance. It kind of exploded. And you were hosting this podcast with Adam Scott about the show. There was so much activity like on Reddit and X and all these social media platforms. Did you engage with that? Like, to what degree were you aware of that? Did you enjoy reading about it? because obviously they're really picking apart your work in very exacting ways at times. The cool thing is that people are paying attention to it. And I think, honestly, that's what you just dream about when you're making something.

7:02You're putting in as much detail work as possible to see that people are picking up on that is great. Like I was saying just before, it's a lot of times that doesn't happen. Where it's just like you make something most of the time, honestly. There's so much out there for people to see and to, you know, something that actually can, like, that people will talk about or pay attention to and then have an audience that's that committed to it that cares as much about the show as we do making it, which I really feel in this. I've never experienced that before. And I guess maybe it's partly because of, you know, the time we live in now with social media and the interaction that people can have with something.

7:44and also maybe the way that people express themselves about how much they care about these shows and movies and how they connect with them in their lives. I think people can express that more through social media and that you never used to know or hear about except maybe somebody would write a fan letter or something like that. But to have that, to me, I really appreciate that. Like I said, I don't delve into reading reviews and stuff, but I will go on X or Twitter and interact with fans who are really into it. And sometimes, yeah, it's fun to me. It's sort of like, it's a thing that I never experienced before.

8:23And I really love it when you feel like you can connect with somebody on something, a stranger, and feel like that they were somehow affected by something that you may, but also to be able to go back and forth with them. Or if somebody says, like, I don't really get it, sometimes it's fun to go back and forth with them on that too. Yeah. With the finale, which you're nominated for directing, Cold Harbor, first of all, just as a fan of your directing for a long time, it felt like such an incredible statement, incredible filmmaking statement. You have absurdism, these action sequences, this romance, all of it cranked up to 11.

8:57It felt like you just sort of diving in and giving it all you had. Yeah, no, I mean, I think we had the goal was, I remember talking about it with Adam, even when we were shooting, like, we just want to give everybody a full meal for the finale, you know, and really like have it be fun. And kind of, you know, the thing with the show, I think is, you know, there are a lot of these long sort of build up tension builds and times when there's like not a lot happening, but there's something under the surface and it usually is building to something. and I felt like the finale in season one was really appropriate for that ending of the season.

9:40It was so well written by Dan to tie all these loose ends together. But I also thought, well, that finale, if you watch that finale out of context, not that you should ever watch a finale for a series out of context, but if you did, it's kind of like, I don't know, it's following people from room to room and it's first person and it's this subjective experience, which is what it should have been. But then I thought, oh, it would be fun to have the finale for this season be something that kind of on its own, you could just experience for the fun of it. If you didn't know every single detail of the story, that it would just be almost like this kind of fun ride that you could go on and have just sort of different elements in it that would maybe be more enjoyable out of context too.

10:23I wonder though, with an episode like that, if you ever feel like the way people are reacting and picking things apart gets a little out of control. I remembered after it aired, there was so much obsession over this particular moment at the end with Heli R., people wondering if she was actually Helena Egan and kind of picking apart the way Britt Lauer was playing it. And she's talked about that. She actually came on this podcast and talked about it wasn't as complicated maybe as people were making it out to be. I wonder what you make of that as the director of that episode. I mean, I never even thought of that, honestly.

10:58I swear to God. I never thought of that moment, except I thought that was a really interesting take and moment and that look that Brit, as Helly, gave to Gemma. There was a lot going on there in that look at the end. In my mind, I was never thinking, oh, we want the audience to maybe think she's Helena, honestly. but it felt like a little bit, there was like sort of a darkness there or something that was, and even when I talked to Britt about it, she was like, no, I didn't think. Everybody has their own interpretation of these moments, but that's what I think is really, there's also a moment in episode 204 in the tent with Irving when she gives him this little snow seal or whatever, and she gets upset with it, and there's like this shift in her eyes where you just see this like kind of intensity and darkness.

11:48And Britt just has this amazing ability to kind of, you know, allow those things to happen. And it's very unexpected. So that was what I liked about that moment. And yeah, I was not expecting any of, I honestly did not think people were going to think, oh, we're, you know, she's actually Helena or any of that. But of course, you know, everybody has their ideas. Yes, indeed they do. It's fun though. It's fun though that I feel like that's, you know, something we've worked at on the show is to allow space for people to fill in. And I think that's really, really important.

12:24More with Ben Stiller after a quick break.

12:34Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. Here's more of my interview with Emmy-nominated director and executive producer of Severance, Ben Stiller. So you mentioned, obviously, the sheer success of this show is not always the case. It's not that common. Your one Emmy win is for the Ben Stiller Show in 1993. And I believe that came after it was canceled. Is that correct? Yeah, it was for the group of writers on the show. Yes. And I credit, it was Odenkirk's episode mainly. So I feel like we all rode on Odenkirk's coattails for that episode. But yeah, we'd been canceled for about nine months, and it's a totally different time in my life.

13:19It was really fun, though, because there wasn't any expectation, and there wasn't any campaigning, and there were no podcasts back then. No little gold medals. And even if there were, we wouldn't have been on it, because it was just the show that was sort of like the also rant. So it was really, really fun. I mean, I think just the whole experience of the Ben Stiller show was, it took such a long time to get it to the point where it got on the air. And then we got canceled really quickly. But I had no bitterness about it because I was so happy that we even got the chance to do it. And it didn't feel like a disappointment or anything.

13:53It just felt like, oh, we, and honestly, by the end of the run, we were kind of like, I think we were all ready to kind of move on. Because we were all in our mid-20s and not really experienced at writing television and the amount that you have to write. And by the end, we were sort of rejecting sketches more and kind of had like a whole like kind of pile of sketches that we didn't think were good enough. So the ratio was getting higher as we were getting closer to finishing. I was rewatching some of it. My parents, for reference, love that show truly more than like anything ever and still do.

14:25And there's some pretty brutal, spot on Hollywood satire that I would say really holds up in that show. So how do you look back on the work you did and the kinds of statements you were making in that show, especially as somebody who's, you know, had to navigate much of those corners of the industry since? Yeah, I mean, it always was something that was interesting to me because I grew up in it. And I've always found show business humor and kind of backstage humor and behind the scenes. There's something very specific about in Hollywood how things happen based on what's happened before. and people kind of bullshit each other and all that stuff.

15:04That's just, you know, nobody ever says no. It's all very real. So I don't know, for me, there's a lot of fun to be had in that. At the time, I'd been working on a thing that Norman Lear had sent called The History of Celebrity in America, which was a movie that was sort of like almost like a mockumentary about a guy who becomes famous for no reason. And I remember, what was the movie, the Chris Guest movie, The Big Picture? Mm-hmm. Remember that movie? Yeah. I remember that movie to me was, I loved that movie so much because it was, and Martin Shore plays this hilarious agent in it. Just making fun of show business stuff I loved.

15:41So that's what I thought when we started doing the show. I loved all that stuff. I was kind of an outsider, sort of, because I didn't really have anything on the line. So we just kind of did it and didn't think about it, really. Yeah. I'm going to jump around a little bit, so forgive me, but I wanted to zero in on the year 2017 for a moment. You gave two of my favorite performances of yours in that year, Brad Status, directed by Mike White, and The Meyerowitz Stories, directed by Noah Baumbach. I'm just curious kind of how you felt at that time as an actor, working with those directors in these really great films, and maybe connecting that to the directing work you would go on to do in Escape at Dannemora, and then obviously Severance.

16:22Like, kind of where were you creatively at that time? Well, I mean, at that time, it was really coming off of doing Zoolander 2 and having that not really being the opposite of a success. Fair enough. And it was pretty tough. Personally, I did a little bit of soul searching. I was really trying to figure out how to navigate that. And the things that came out of that that were super positive for me were realizing that I only wanted to work with directors besides myself, because I directed directors who I really admired and wanted to work with. And then also realizing I didn't want to act and direct at the same time for a while because I wasn't enjoying it as much.

17:09and I loved directing and I realized I had never directed anything that I wasn't in except for Cable Guy, which was a long time ago. And I loved it. I loved that process. So the space that was there after Zoolander, because it wasn't really like a lot going on in terms of like people like coming to me saying, hey, do this, do that. I had time to develop Escape at Dannemora and I had the space to kind of commit to doing this series. And the first day of shooting on it, I was so happy. I just so happy doing one thing and exploring genres as a director that I'd always wanted to, because those are the kinds of movies that I've been a fan of growing up.

17:49So I think that was a big thing that changed. And then I love working with Noah. I love working with Mike. And that, again, it was like right after that. So it was sort of like putting, putting all of my sort of creative energy into working on those movies as an actor, but then saying like, I'm not going to, I just want to do one thing at a time. and I'm not going to act in something until a role comes along that I really, really want to do with a director I really want to work with. I think that was the shift for me. And then making Escape was so enjoyable to me. It was like, oh, I just want to keep doing this.

18:20And that's kind of what led to Severance, too. I'm curious what you can say about Patricia Arquette as a collaborator, Flirting with Disasters, another one of my favorite movies of yours. I think we're at the 30th anniversary next year. she's incredible in Dannemora she's amazing in Severance she's nominated again this year I would say largely for a standalone episode focused on her character that you also directed there's a really rich through line I think in terms of your work together yeah I mean I love her I didn't really spend a lot of time with her between flirting with disaster and when we did Escape we had the same manager Molly Madden over the years as a good friend.

19:02And we'd stayed in touch a little bit, but when Escape came up and it was so clear that she would be amazing in that role, I reached out to her and she was like, it was almost like no time had gone by from when we worked on flirting. And I remember loving hanging out with her and she's just such an honest, open person. And she's so, she's very courageous in terms of her choices as an actor, because she just is willing to try things. And as a person too, She's willing to speak out about things she believes in. She doesn't care. She doesn't give a shit. She just wants to be an authentic person. And someone who's that talented, if they're open to trying things and to not being locked into caring about how they're going to be perceived because they know that the character is the most important thing, that's what I feel with her.

19:53She just kind of puts it all into the work and is willing to try this. And then she'll go, no, I'll try this 180 degrees. Let me do this. I'm going to do it while I'm shouting. I'm going to do this while I'm super, like she plays around and she's so funny too. So there's just like a comfortability there with her. And I feel so lucky that I can have that process with her where I really trust that if I say something to her and say, look, maybe that doesn't work or I'm not sure that she's not going to get freaked out or anything. She's going to go, okay, well, let me try this. Or she's going to go like, come on, you're driving me crazy.

20:20What do I do here? But it's that kind of a relationship, which is just, you know, it's the best because you just kind of trust. And then she's just so good. She's just so, and she always gives you so much. It was so much fun to work with her on that episode, episode eight, because she just filled it. She filled it with so much history and backstory that we didn't even know, but it was just so full. And her and Jane were so great together, I thought. Yeah, you're in a completely new location there. The tone of that episode is so different from really anything else in the show. It's almost like you're making a little short movie with her.

20:59Yeah, yeah. We went up to Newfoundland and, you know, we had a small crew that came from Montreal that Jessica Lee Gagne, our cinematographer on that episode, who also directed that great episode 207. She had a bunch of friends from Montreal that we brought up to Newfoundland and it was just its own little thing. And I really was wanting to work with Jane, who I've known since I was a little kid, because Jane was friends with my parents and her husband, Ed Shearn, who was a director. And it was kind of, for me, like having grown up watching her play Eleanor Roosevelt and, you know, and she'd done so much as a kid that I was like really impacted me like to be working with her.

21:44I just consider her, you know, she's such a good actress and she's so, I don't know, believable. And I think that's the thing with Patricia and the same thing with Turturro, these people, like they just imbue so much reality into these sometimes hard to believe situations. And so being in that little house with them, you know, up there just doing those scenes with one camera and doing a few takes in each one, it was really, it was a really fun experience. To what you were saying about Dan Amara and getting to direct in this kind of genre you'd always wanted to work in, it's interesting because it's a television series.

22:17And I was thinking about you and Mike White both being nominated in the same category this year. Two filmmakers who've been working for a long time behind the camera experiencing this real kind of explosion through directing in TV after years of working in indie film. I know we're like these old people. Mike's not old. But there's so much energy to it, you know? No, no, but Mike's eternally youthful. Come on, he's like the survivor guy. I think you both are. Yeah, but no, but that thing of like, we've been, yeah, like an appreciation of that. I actually ran into Tony Gilroy the other night. I don't really know him that well, but we were laughing too.

22:57It's like, hey, we're still working. We're still doing our thing. And you know, that's something that you really appreciate at this age, that you're able to do that. I mean, I think Mike is a genius. I literally no one else could do what he does, but he, you know, what he created, he created a genre, I think, with White Lotus and how he does it is it just, it blows my mind because he does the writing by himself and the, and the directing. and I've talked to him about his process too, which I think is, you know, he's such an artist because he's really trying to find something, even though he knows how to do everything logistically and the writing and the shooting and all that, he's going for emotion.

23:35He wants to surprise himself and he's willing to kind of rip his own stuff apart until he feels something. So he has sort of a lack of ego there, but yet a real understanding of when it's working and his writing, I just think, is so brilliant and directing. So, yeah, I love Mike. Is there, I suppose, for people in your world, an acceptance that TV kind of offers this combination of creative freedom, creative ambition, and financial backing that is a little bit harder to gain in film at this point? I think so, for sure, right now. I think the ability to work on something on a scale and in genres that people, for whatever reason, the studios don't think are going to the movies to see, genres that I think I miss being in the theaters, that's what's drawn me to it.

24:34And I think there are incredible movies being made, but the budget levels for those movies have to be very low for them to be something that's outside of what the studios think is going to make money. And that's the unfortunate thing, is that if you want to do something in film that's not one of the genres that everybody feels safe with now, which is horror or sequels or superhero, whatever it is, you're going to be limited budget-wise. Now, which is not bad because when some brilliant movies are made, probably most brilliant movies are made on low budgets, you know, that we're seeing that win awards and stuff.

25:18But it would be nice to have what we had in the 70s and 80s and even 90s where there were studio movies that were not necessarily going to be something that is so crazy over the top that you have to go to a theater to see it. But you go to theater because you want to have the experience of watching a movie in a theater with people, whether that's comedy or drama, too. Because I feel like both the dramas and the comedies are really kind of missing there right now. Yeah. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, the movie that you did kind of come back to a starring role in after taking a break was Nutcrackers, the holiday family comedy, a very sweet movie directed by David Gordon Green.

25:58It opened the Toronto Film Festival, and I remember being at that premiere, and during your Q &A, one of the main points you'd made was the hope that it would come out in theaters. Disney acquires my dashed hope Disney acquires the movie, puts it on Hulu it does very well on Hulu but it's this kind of movie that you're talking about that 20 years ago would be a big family movie in theaters was it disappointing that it couldn't happen for that movie? yeah, sure honestly, I would have loved that movie to be in theaters because I feel like comedies work really well in theaters and also So there's just nothing like going to the movies.