Can You Smell What The Rock is Cooking? Is it An Oscar?

18:19Rebecca Alter:and their pursuit of collegiate basketball scholarships, NBA dreams and all of that. And, you know, it's funny, that's one of the more infamous Oscar snubs. It wasn't even nominated for Best Documentary that year. And now it's widely regarded as, you know, not just the best sports documentary, but maybe one of the best documentaries, period. But another great sports doc from that era is When We Were Kings, which is about the Muhammad Ali, George Foreman fight in Zaire. and I mean you just have some incredible archival footage uh you have great contributions from George Plimpton and Norman Mailer you know these literary lions who love boxing so much and that's really good but it's just to to move it to more of the um you know the Dwayne Johnson of it all the the fictionalized sports movies I I was thinking you know one of the better movies of the 21st century I think Moneyball from 2011 which is an adaptation of the the Michael Lewis book, which is all about the general manager of the Oakland Athletics, soon to be the Las Vegas Athletics, and his approach to team building.

19:24Rebecca Alter:He assembled this roster on a shoestring budget. It's a small market team. And he really pioneered this analytical approach to sports. And I just think that it's such a touchstone for this era because analytics have taken over professional sports in so many ways. And I do think that Billy Bean and And his team and what he created there was sort of a progenitor for that movement. So those are three that just come to mind. You know, two from the 90s, one from this century. But yeah.

19:53Tom Kludt:Yeah, I grew up in the East Bay, so I'm an Oakland A's fan. So Tom, you're now my favorite now that you've picked my books. Well, that's a sore subject, of course. That's a big one for me.

20:01Rebecca Alter:They're no longer in the Bay Area.

20:04Tom Kludt:It's a heartbreak. Yes, yes.

20:06John DeFore:Why do we think that so many of the biggest sports movies are always centered around wrestling, boxing? What about that sport lends itself to film and television, do you think? Is it the characters? I think that's a big part of it.

20:29Rebecca Alter:I think that there are so many, unfortunately, tragic arcs in both those realms. I mean, there are so many tragic tales of boxers whose lives, you know, went awry. And ditto for wrestling, of course. I mean, I think that these are guys who they live hard and they train hard. And, you know, when they're at their apex, they're kind of like burning the candle at both ends. You know, you think about Raging Bull, the iconic Scorsese movie. Jake LaMotta is, you know, one of the ultimate tragic athletic heroes. And yeah, I mentioned when we were kings and just Norman Mailer and George Clinton involved, like there's always been this literary synergy, I think, with boxing too, you know, in a way that you don't see with, say, UFC, you know, the combat sport at the moment.

21:17Rebecca Alter:It doesn't seem to invite like the poetry and the romance that boxing does. And I think that lends itself well to art in general and movies specifically. I mean, boxing is its own film genre, right? I mean, you could narrow it down from sports to just boxing movies.

21:33Tom Kludt:Yeah, I think when we think about Rocky winning her best picture, Million Dollar Baby, of course, they've had a lot of success in the Oscar race. I think because of what you're saying, they do have this connection that I think really works for audiences. So when we want to talk more specifically about what is happening this year, I think I was extremely excited to see Dwayne Johnson take on this role. But what is sort of your read, Tom, of Dwayne's crossover into film at this point, leading up to this film?

22:07Rebecca Alter:Yeah, you know, he really caught lightning in a bottle with The Mummy Returns, right? He had a very small role in that. And it tested well, so well that they created a spinoff for him, The Scorpion King. And that really jumpstarted his movie career. But I think that kind of belies the sluggish start that his film career had. He was making movies like The Tooth Fairy. There was the Get Shorty sequel. And he wasn't really like popping until that first Fast and the Furious movie. I think it was Fast Five was his first role. That would have been around 2011. And then, you know, he did pretty much one of those movies every year for the next decade after that.

22:45Rebecca Alter:And then he became this like blockbuster icon. And so it seems like his latest movie might be, you know, a springboard to, I don't know, maybe more of the indie art house variety, maybe more of the Oscar bait like this. I mean, I'm really looking forward to seeing it because it will be such a departure from, you know, the more pop-to-end films.

23:05John DeFore:Tom, my question for you is, one, the wrestler-to-actor pipeline is pretty full. Why do you think that is? Is it because, you know, I mean, God forbid we say this out loud, but like there's acting and wrestling and that's what, is that what it is? And then I also, I also though want to know prior to movie stardom, where did The Rock rank compared to John Cena or David Batista? He was a bigger wrestling star than those two, correct?

23:41Rebecca Alter:Yeah, I think by consensus, The Rock is on the Mount Rushmore, if you will, of all professional wrestlers up there with Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Stone Cold Steve Austin. You know, he's in that pantheon. I would say John Cena is not far behind. He's an all-time great in his own right. But, you know, you're absolutely right. There's a well-traveled pipeline from the ring to Hollywood. And I think there are obvious explanations why it is performance. people might scoff and roll their eyes, but it truly is theater of a different kind. And I think that where guys like The Rock and John Cena really buttered their bread was with their mic skills, cutting the promos, as they call it in the biz, which honestly is probably more important than the fights themselves.

24:29Rebecca Alter:It's those moments when they're being interviewed, when they're backstage, when they're taunting their rivals. And for my money, The Rock was second to none. I think that his mic skills were just unbelievable. You could rewatch some and you can see the charisma just oozing out of his pores. I mean, he's like a preacher. You really can't teach that. And I'll be curious to see what that looks like in this film, taking a more serious turn like that.

24:57John DeFore:I mean, it's fascinating to see a star of this size, both physically and figuratively. He is doing an incredible repositioning for this film in terms of how he is reshaping his own narrative. I had a chance to read the New York Times piece, which is, I think, his first foray into Dwayne Johnson, the serious actor. And I think we're going to get a lot more of that this season. and it's a pretty good profile. For me, the thing that stood out the most was that he doesn't like to receive phone calls. He only likes to receive voice notes.

25:47Tom Kludt:That's very Gen Z of him, yeah.

25:50John DeFore:Yeah, that was the most revealing part to me because the rest of it was a little eye-rolly. He does talk a lot about his relationship to his father and how he channeled that into playing this character and sort of internalizing pain. It is a good first step in a campaign to getting an Oscar nom. It is interesting, though, because he is so synonymous with big blockbuster kind of schlocky movies. and he really has to reposition how the public thinks about him. I mean, Rebecca, what do you think? You've seen the film. You've seen the performance. Where do you think he stands?

26:48Tom Kludt:Yeah, I think the thing with him is, and I think why he succeeded so well in crossing over to acting, was he has the ability to be a showman, which he learned, I assume, from wrestling. and it really worked in promoting these big blockbusters. He knows exactly what to give audiences. He knows when to lift his eyebrow and look like a superhero or whatever. The physicality and the storytelling he can do. So I think that just needs to translate into doing the awards race. And he has the narrative. We had a first look on the film that was similar in telling the story about him having to really push himself to go more vulnerable and more real for this film.

27:31Tom Kludt:And so I think he's got to do that, but also not seem like he's repeating himself. Like we don't want a Lady Gaga moment here where he's telling the same story 500 times for the next three months.

27:44John DeFore:There's a hundred wrestlers in the room, but only one can be Oscar nominated.

27:51Tom Kludt:Yeah, so that'll be the challenge. But I think that's why he succeeded is his ability to promote films and himself in a way that feels like entertainment. So it's just changing that for this strategy, I think.

28:05John DeFore:Right, and he cried in Venice. At the Venice Film Festival, he gave a great performative standing ovation that was enough to make headlines where the headline was Dwayne Johnson breaks down in tears, which, by the way, if you see the video, is not what he does. He's more just, you know, regular emotional. But I wonder, though, like to what you said, Rebecca, how he'll continue this season because typically in getting your first nomination, you have to do quite a lot of work, especially this season where there is an incredibly crowded best actor race. And he is astronomically famous. But is he going to do as much as a first-time nominee normally has to do to get that nomination?

29:10It still remains to be seen.

29:14Tom Kludt:What do you think, Tom? Do you think the Academy or the industry will take him seriously as this sort of actor-actor?

29:21Rebecca Alter:Well, something I was thinking about, just to piggyback on the point you made earlier about what a box office draw he's been, I think that an extension of that is just how likable he is. I feel like the public loves The Rock. I mean, so much so that there have been fairly serious conversations about him potentially running for president someday, a draft Dwayne movement. And I wonder if that will dovetail with the Oscars campaign at all. And that like, I mean, I think the public would like to see Dwayne Johnson win an Oscar. I don't know if the Academy feels the same way, but I do feel like this is a guy who, by and large, people root for, you know, we like to see him.

30:01Rebecca Alter:People like to see him on the big screen. They like to see him in commercials. And he doesn't have a lot of haters. And I just wonder, I mean, you guys tell me, I wonder if that will benefit him at all. I mean, I understand some of the stuff he does is a little performative. It might induce an eye roll here and there. But for the most part, we're charmed by him, aren't we?

30:21Tom Kludt:I'm very charmed by him. I'm a huge fan.

30:23John DeFore:So in this past month, I've learned that Rebecca loves The Rock and Channing Tatum, which has been pretty eye-opening for me. I'm sorry, it wasn't what I expected.

30:37Rebecca Alter:That sounds like a formidable presidential ticket, honestly. Right, it does.

30:41John DeFore:Well, and they're similar. What is it, Rebecca? When was it that you were like, this is one of my guys?

30:48Tom Kludt:Well, different reasons. Channing is, you know, from a step-up obsession a long time ago, and then I just followed his career from that. But I think the thing they haven't, and I'm a huge Fast and Furious fan, And so the Dwayne love started there. But I think what they have in common is they know how to open a movie. They know how to give audiences what they want. And I think that's a huge part of being a movie star. It does take talent to do that, to know what kind of film you're starring in and what you need to deliver for audiences. And they both do that very well. And I think I sort of root for people in the Oscar space who've maybe been pigeonholed for their career and have another side to show.

31:31Tom Kludt:And I think that's exactly what Dwayne is trying to do this year. So I think there's a lot of talent and charisma and a lot of things that make them both movie stars.

31:41John DeFore:There are throwbacks to, I think, a 90s movie star. Like, there are throwbacks to back in the day when the MTV Movie Awards was akin to the Oscars for some.

31:54Rebecca Alter:Yeah.

31:54John DeFore:You know, they are people that can perform an MTV Movie Awards skit and have it land in a big way. And that's part of, I think, what makes them such fun stars in this day and age. Yeah.

32:13Tom Kludt:Yeah, I think one of the bigger hurdles we haven't mentioned so far is that these sort of, I call them wrestling slash fighting slash boxing movies, haven't done very well with the Academy in the last couple years. I loved The Fire Inside last year, and it just didn't go anywhere. There was also the movie Unstoppable. There was Ironclaw the year before. And then we have to go all the way back to 2014 for Foxcatcher, which did not get Best Picture, but did get a couple acting nominations. And I'm curious, Tom, what you thought about that sort of handful of movies that have come out in the last couple of years.

32:47Rebecca Alter:Yeah, I mean, I think Foxcatcher seems like a decent corollary to what Dwayne Johnson is trying to do right now with his new movie. I remember all the momentum behind Steve Carell's performance in that movie. And while he got nominated, he didn't win. But I just feel like there was a similar curiosity surrounding that performance. And this guy who was so identifiable with this indelible role on this beloved sitcom, taking a very serious turn. I think it's a similar pivot for Dwayne Johnson in this one. And so I saw a parallel in that. But beyond that, it's an excellent point. They haven't fared as well as they have in the past.

33:26Rebecca Alter:I was thinking about movies like The Fighter or The Wrestler, but that's getting back to about 15 years gone. So maybe this is the one to break that streak.

33:38Tom Kludt:Well, we'll definitely be keeping an eye on this film in both The Best Picture Race along with Dwayne Johnson's journey to the Oscars. Tom, thank you so much for joining us today.

33:47Rebecca Alter:Thank you for having me. I had a lot of fun with you guys. Thank you.

33:50Tom Kludt:After the break, we're sharing our recommendations for other must-watch films hitting theaters this month. Stay with us.

34:03Rebecca Alter:I'm Shilpa Oskakovich. And I'm Jazzy Sefcek. And we're the hosts of the Bon Appetit Bake Club podcast. Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident, curious bakers.

34:13Tom Kludt:Jazzy and I love to bake. Some might even call us obsessive. And we love to talk about all the hows and whys

34:19Rebecca Alter:and what didn't works that come with it. Every month, we publish a recipe on BonAppetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll bake, send us any questions you have. And we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. So consider this your official invitation.

34:36Tom Kludt:Come join the BA Bake Club.

34:37Rebecca Alter:New episodes on the first Tuesday of every month, wherever you get your podcasts.

34:41Tom Kludt:Happy baking.

34:50Tom Kludt:Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. I love this time of year when all the films that we've seen at festivals start hitting theaters, and I thought we could kind of help listeners out by giving some of our favorite picks. And I feel like October is full of a lot of good stuff. What do you think, John?

35:07John DeFore:Yeah, I literally was having lunch with somebody today in London town. Listeners, I'm in London. I'm still one battling after another with the Hollywood issue. We're shooting till the very last day. But I was talking to somebody who was telling me, he was like, you know what? There's so many October releases this year. And I think that that's a little bit of the Anora effect. Anora was released in the middle of October last year, obviously went on to win Best Picture. it had a very long theatrical run. And traditionally, Oscar films, they really like to push the release date as late as possible.

35:50John DeFore:But I think the Enora effect, I think is rubbing off now on some of these film releases for this year.

35:58Tom Kludt:Yeah, that's a good theory.

35:59John DeFore:So let's talk about, Rebecca, you go first with some of your October movies.

36:05Tom Kludt:So I'm gonna keep on the Channing Tatum bus here. I knew you would. And pick Roofman, which is coming out October 10th. I got to see this at TIFF where it world premiered. And I thought it was great. It's a really entertaining film. It's based on a true story about this guy who escapes prison and hides out in a Toys R Us. It's a really interesting character for him. I think a lot of people are pointing out it's some of the best work he's done. And, you know, this guy is charming and intelligent and really interesting to watch and has a very personal reason for trying to get out of prison. And it really works as a film.

36:46Tom Kludt:There's some really great chemistry between him and Kirsten Dunst, who plays this employee of the Toys R Us that he starts a relationship with. They have really unexpected dialogue. And I think it's a really great movie to watch in theater. I'm curious about its awards chances still, but I think if you're looking for an entertaining movie to see, I'd highly recommend it.

37:06John DeFore:John, what's your first pick? I'm going to combo. Next week, we're going to discuss all of Netflix's awards films, which is a staggering amount. I don't think we've ever seen a studio have this many releases.

37:23Tom Kludt:Big contenders, yeah. Yeah, in a really long time.

37:26John DeFore:But two films come out in October. One is Catherine Bigelow's House of Dynamite. it will be released in limited theatrical on October 10th and then on October 24th streaming on Netflix I don't want to give anything away about this movie it is incredibly intense we'll talk about it next week and then Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein also comes out in October that I don't need to give as much away by the title I think you know what it's about but it comes out October 17th in select theaters and then it'll be streaming on Netflix starting in November.

38:12Tom Kludt:I would recommend seeing both in theaters if you're able to because I think they really benefit from being in a big screen and in an audience. So if you can do it, do it.

38:20John DeFore:Well, if you're able to, I think it's going to be a big topic of conversation next week. Moving on, moving on, moving on.

38:27Tom Kludt:So my second pick is If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You. It's an A24 film. It stars Rose Byrne as this mom who is really struggling. It's bonkers. It's really wild. I had a hard time watching it the first time. It's a hard story to watch because she makes a lot of insane decisions. But it is a truly incredible performance from Rose Byrne. And if you have appreciated her as an actor but feel like maybe she hasn't gotten enough to do or enough big projects. She's very talented at comedy, but this is really just very demanding of her and she's really great in it. And especially if you're a mom like me, you're going to relate to some of the feelings that she may have because it really is about a mom who's just in over her head.

39:13Tom Kludt:And I think it's based on a very personal story for the filmmaker, Mary Bronstein, and she does a great job with it. So I highly recommend.

39:22John DeFore:Yeah, I agree. this is one of Rose Byrne's best performances. And she has a lot of them.

39:30Tom Kludt:Yeah.

39:31John DeFore:My next pick is the film that won Cannes. It won the Palme d 'Or. It was just an accident. It comes out in limited release in October. What's really interesting about this film is it is tonally very odd. It's both a thriller, and then sometimes it's like a dark comedy, and then sometimes it's almost a broad comedy. And also it's only an hour and 45 minutes, because I know a lot of people, when they hear Cane, Pom Dior, they're like, strap in three hours. Hour and 45 minutes. Definitely see this movie. It will get into your brain, and I see why it won. That original take on filmmaking is so refreshing.

40:23Tom Kludt:I think we get a lot of that when we do expand beyond American films and go see international features. I just thought it was incredible as well. So I hope it gains an audience here as well.

40:35John DeFore:I think the director, Jafar Panahi, is definitely going to be in the Oscar conversation for Best Director because of what he does with the tone and how he plays with the different characters and beats, it's highly original.

40:53Tom Kludt:Well, speaking of highly original, my next pick is Hedda, which is coming out in October 22nd, limited, and then on Prime Video on October 29th. It's obviously based on one of the most famous Ibsen plays ever. But Nia DaCosta has done something really interesting with this film. It's really beautiful. It's very bold. It's very fun in a lot of the ways. You get to watch Tessa Thompson play Hedda and just like create chaos and destruction everywhere she goes. But she changed one of the characters from male to female and then cast Nina Haas in it. And this Nina Haas performance did not leave my head after I saw this movie because she is incredible in this role.

41:36Tom Kludt:And I really hope she's in the supporting actress conversation because it's just like such a scene stealer. And it created a totally new dynamic between Hedda and her husband and also this ex-lover. And I found it a really wonderful watch and I hope people will go see it.

41:54John DeFore:My last pick, we've talked about this film to death, but it is after The Hunt. Is this film perfect? No. But it is going to get you talking. I agree with Julia Roberts at that Venice Film Festival press conference when she was like, I like films that, you know, make you have a conversation afterwards. You will go see this film. You will leave it and you will argue about it to death. Is that a good or bad thing? I don't know. But I still appreciate when films take a swing like this. And boy, oh boy, does this film take a lot of swings. And, you know, you can go to this movie and afterwards have a drink and you and your friends will be talking about it for sure.

42:45Tom Kludt:I agree with you. I think it's worth seeing even if, you know, reactions are going to be mixed. I'm going to do one more shout out for one more film. What a month we've got. I know. It's so busy. I know. I feel like we're just naming every movie. But Begonia is coming out at the end of the month, October 24th Limited, and then Halloween Nationwide, which feels sort of appropriate for this movie. this is Yorgo Lantimos' latest film it has a Jesse Plemons plays a basically a conspiracy theorist who's convinced that Emma Stone's character who's sort of this corporate very successful businesswoman is an alien and it will I guarantee it will surprise you and Jesse Plemons is giving maybe my favorite performance of his ever and he's done a lot of incredible work so it's a really incredible performance to watch, but also just a real, you know, another original, even though it is an adaptation, it's just such original filmmaking from Yorgo.

43:44Tom Kludt:So perfect Halloween viewing, in my opinion.

43:50Tom Kludt:Thanks for tuning in to Little Gold Men. We'll be back next Thursday to talk more about A House of Dynamite and the many, many Netflix movies that will be in the race this year. As always, if you have a question you'd like us to answer in the podcast, feel free to send an email or voice note to littlegoldmen at vf.com. Little Gold Men is produced by Hiba El-Urbani with mixing by Bumi Hidaka. Our executive producer is Stephen Valatino. Kande Nesk Global Head of Audio is Chris Bannon. And this week's award for why Tom Clute is the perfect Little Gold Men guest goes to me. He knows when to like lift his eyebrow and look like a superhero or whatever.

44:36Rebecca Alter:Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global Director of Vogue Runway and Vogue Business and host of the Runthrough podcast.

44:42John DeFore:Every Tuesday, join me for the latest fashion news like the shakeups of Balenciaga and Dior and what's trending in Paris and Milan. You'll also hear interviews with top designers from Mark Jacobs and Rick Owens to Daniel Roseberry, Sarah Burton, and many more.

44:58Rebecca Alter:On Thursdays, Chloe Maul, editor of Vogue.com, and Choma Nadi, head of editorial content at British Vogue, take you behind the scenes at Vogue and share their thoughts on fashion through the lens of culture. You'll hear interviews with some of your favorite stars like Julianne Moore, Pharrell Williams, and celebrity stylist La Roche. Join us to get your fashion and culture news twice a week. Listen to The Run-Through with Vogue every Tuesday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

45:28Thank you.