Did The Grammy Awards Nominations Finally Get It Right!?!

0:28Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, It's sort of the last hurrah before the Thanksgiving holiday. And the Governor's Awards is going to be happening. And so everyone shows up. So I feel like this is the first event of that. And it's hosted by the Academy and Chanel. It's a very lovely lunch on their beautiful Academy Museum rooftop. And they always have like a really inspirational keynote speaker who's usually like, yay, women, we can do this. We can make movies. And it makes me feel good. But this year, it was Kristen Stewart who really had a much more honest take on the way of the world right now and how there just hasn't been improvements for women, especially as directors of like top films in Hollywood.

1:09When the content is too dark, too taboo, when the frankness with which it serves up observations about experience is routinely experienced by women frequently provoke disgust and rejection. But they are true. And I don't feel disgusting. And, you know, she's known to drop an F-bomb or two, and she definitely did that. But I thought it was actually really refreshing to have, like, a more honest take of how things are. Yeah, I thought her speech was good. And I mean, very Kristen Stewart. I think we have been beginning to notice both with the Academy Gala and this brunch, there's a little less people out and about this season.

1:53And it'll be interesting to see. This coming weekend is the Governor's Awards weekend. That is like the pinnacle of the campaign time. But so far, it's been a little bit quieter. and then they finally aired the Wicked One Wonderful Night special which I got to go to the taping of. Full disclosure, I had to leave early because I had a flight the next day and it was four hours of taping. But if you want to know what movie marketing is, Wicked One Wonderful Night is like that's how you do it. It's a concert special from songs from the movie on your sister network NBC that the next day streams on Peacock, your streaming platform.

2:46You know, over the weekend, all these clips were all over social. They ended it with singing the famous duet between Judy Garland and Barbra Streisand, Get Happy. That was spectacular. It's a reminder that these two, like, can really sing. and we better see them on the Oscars stage singing. They filmed it at the Dolby, which is where the Oscars take place. And I don't know, I just saw it this weekend and there's been a lot of talk about like how we're marketing movies right now and how we're getting audiences to the theater. And I thought, well, this is how you do it. Yeah, I think they've been really smart in the way they're sort of doing the second phase because they're not repeating themselves from the first phase.

3:33They're doing this sort of like this big TV special and now they're sort of on their world tour to open the film, but they're not doing like a ton of these sort of interviews that we saw on the first run. So it feels like they really made an event out of that TV special in a way that honestly not even television does very often anymore. So yeah, I think they're really doing it right and I feel like we'll see that when the movie comes out and it's like another huge hit at the box office. Okay, we have a big episode today. We're following the yellow brick road away from the Oscars and to another award show I love, which is the Grammys.

4:12Yeah, the nominations for the Grammys were just announced on Friday, so it feels like a really good time to take a break from all this Oscar chatter and explore another major, very important award show. So we're going to discuss all the surprises and snubs, what performances we're hoping to see at this year's ceremony, and whether or not the Grammys are, as they say, music's biggest night.

4:39Here with us for today's conversation are Vanity Fair staff writer Erin Vanderhoof and associate editor Daniela Tijerina. Thank you both for joining us. Thank you. Happy to be here. Long-time listener, first-time guest. It's so nice to have you guys here because I'm going to start this episode with a sort of embarrassing confession is that I don't know anything about the Grammys. I make cover awards all the time, but the Grammys is just sort of a big blind spot for me and music is not my expertise. So I'm really hoping you can both help me out today. I do think there's some very strange things about the Grammys that I feel like many of our listeners probably haven't wrapped their head around.

5:20But I think we should sort of start with how you view the Grammys. Does it compare to the Oscars for you? Is it as important for the music community? Yes and no. I'd say that Grammys are essentially just like a big concert with this weird industry conference tacked on. And you'll notice that like the telecast every single year, there are fewer categories that actually get awarded during it. And that's because, you know, altogether. So on Friday, 95 different categories were released. And that's just like way too much for one ceremony. So there are all of these different genres, like classical and gospel and metal and Americana, where they have these really, really, really, really committed voters, you know, because the Academy is made up of so many musicians.

6:04It's their like peak of the year. They're having the most fun of their lives. And then the show is kind of like the end of that. They get to sit there in the audience when the pop stars go on. So it's like a very, you know, insofar as like the Oscars bring movies together, Grammys are sort of like a lot of different people from different parts of the world, like coming to one place at one time. But the actual awards mean a lot less to the shape of music to come, except for the last few years. So we'll come back to, I think that there have been some changes in that. Yeah, I'd say I agree with Erin in that it's about the night.

6:38Unlike Hollywood, there's no sort of major lead up. there's no big award season that gives any sense of what's to expect that night, unless you take the VMAs very seriously, which most people do not. But it's all about that night and seeing all those people in one room together. And I think people tune in because you really have no idea how the night is going to go, historically speaking. Though in the last five years, they've been adding so many more new members to the Academy. And even this last few months, they've announced that they invited every single person in the Latin Grammys voting body to join the regular voting body.

7:17And I think that that says a lot about, they're just trying to make it a lot less about who do these people who are kind of random like, and like, how do we make this more about like, supporting music as an endeavor in modern society. Right. And the move to become more modern followed lots of controversies and changes in leadership at the Recording Academy. There was that famous moment in 2018 when Neil Portnow, who was the president of the Recording Academy, made that unfortunate comment in a press conference that women needed to step it up. He shortly afterwards stepped down. And then there were changes to the actual awards show itself.

8:02Ben Winston was named executive producer in 2020. But before that, it was this guy named Ken Ehrlich. He had produced the show for many, many, many years. He's a famous character in Grammys history. Erin, I know you have some thoughts on him. Oh, so many thoughts. I do want to ask you guys, do you guys remember Ken's final show? It was February 2020. Yes. And it was the day that Kobe Bryant passed away. And Alicia Keys was hosting, which was fine, but she had an impossible task. And then it just went on and on and on. And then it ended with a tribute to Ken Ehrlich, which was like the song from fame, just getting a bunch of famous people to do it.

8:45And it was, to me, the pandemic started that day. But then, I mean, even the next year, I think that in the end, Ben Winston got pretty lucky because the expectations for that 2021 Grammy, the pandemic Grammys, were just so weird that he could pretty much do anything and like just feeling fun was good enough. But I think the really inspired thing and the energy he's tried to keep through the rest of the ceremonies he's done is in 2021, he had other artists waiting on the edge of the stage as artists were performing. And they were these moments where they sort of would like film people who were kind of acquaintances or even actual friends like hugging each other.

9:27And it was just like this kind of cocktail party feel. And I think from that moment, I was like, oh, OK, he can do this. because I think that one of the things that was really hard about the Ken Ehrlich years is that because Ken was such a legend in television production, he'd been doing the Grammys for four decades. And the term that he came up with, but I think is like, you know, it's expanded far beyond that, is like the Grammy moment. And if you think, like to me, the quintessential Grammy moment is the Jonas Brothers playing Superstition with Stevie Wonder, where it's like, oh, okay, like two different people from two different generations that don't really have anything in common, like having a fun, weird moment.

10:06And it's like, I'm sure it was fun for them, but like that doesn't actually make for that good TV. And you can see from like the way that the show has changed that putting as many people on display doing what they're good at is the goal other than like creating something that feels exclusive but comes off as random to the audience. Ken Ehrlich didn't allow the young people to sing their own songs. The young people had to sing covers of older songs in these weird medleys that they did. And it started to become like an SNL parody of itself. And then in 2021, the Grammys opened with Harry Styles.

10:45So it was like a record scratch of like, like, whoa, like we're starting it off with, Harry's probably the biggest male pop star, right? I mean, definitely. And, you know, when you open with Harry, it's like a message to young people like, come in, come in, come in. Please come in. We're begging you. Yeah. So it sounds like there's been a couple reasons the show has been reinvigorated in the last few years and you guys are saying it has worked. I think so. It seems to be trending upwards and at least in my opinion, I think that, I mean, even in 2024, women won all major categories. Last year, Beyonce finally got her album of the year.

11:28it seems that we're seeing music as it is reflected back to us in a way that feels authentic to the moment and what audiences want in a way that in the past, to John's point, like the show kind of just felt like one big in memoriam when we're singing songs by people who are not even alive anymore or are, you know, relics of the show. So I do think that the tides are turning in the right direction and in a fun way too. Like I'm excited to watch the Grammys. Last year, I think the thing that worked is they had all of the artists nominated for Best New Artist performing. Right. And that was just like, oh, wow.

12:05It was lucky because they had Dochi, Sabrina Carpenter, and Chapel Roan are like the three biggest people under the age of 30 right now. And so they just got lucky enough that like, other than Billie, of course. And they had that big Charlie moment too. Yeah, they had the big Charlie moment as well. And that, I think it was like a bit of luck that the people who were nominated for that were the people that you actually really wanted to hear from. Right, and are willing to put on a performance like that. Yeah. Yeah, they were really showing off last year, and it worked. Well, I think that ties in a couple more of my dum-dum questions.

12:39The first one is, how is Best New Artist? Like, how are you eligible for Best New Artist? Well. You don't have to be new, first of all. It's a wacky award. Basically, you can't have applied three times to be nominated for Best New Artist, nor can you have received a Grammy nomination unless it's if you were like a featured performer. Other than that, you can be a Best New Artist. So if you've released 15 albums, but you've never actually applied for a Grammy, you can be a Best New Artist. Look at Sabrina Carpenter. Yeah, both Sabrina and Krongybin last year, which was the Krongybin one was especially funny to me because it's like, I remember seeing them live in like college.

13:21age. Interesting. Never give up, guys. Never give up or don't apply too many times too early. Exactly, Rebecca. It's like you have to be a little bit careful. Like, if you know you're not getting it, don't apply. Yeah. Okay. I think this is a universal question with these awards, but what is the difference between record of the year, album of the year, and song of the year? Oh, I love this is my favorite question to answer. If I just spend the rest of my life explaining this to people, I will be happy because it's so fun. And you might. I really might. So people can never decide if album of the year is the actual big one to win or if record of the year is the big one to win.

14:02But album is for a traditional LP, you know, usually between like 45 and 90 minutes long, a full recording package. Record is for a single. So it's one individual song, but it is for the recorded performance of that song by a specific artist. Whereas Song of the Year is that song's performance by the specific artist, but it goes to the songwriters, and it's supposed to be sort of about evaluating the craft. It all makes tons of sense. That's so funny. Is there anything when it comes to sort of the categories or anything else that's been changed this year that we should pay attention to? So there are two things I'm excited about.

14:46So for ages, they've had a thing called Best Recording Package, but now they're changing it to Best Album Cover, so it's more about the artistic process that went into it and less about the outcome. And then there's also Best Traditional Country Album, which is supposed to separate it from Best Contemporary Country Album. What do you think that signals? Do you think that the Recording Academy hasn't been happy with what is considered country these days with more sort of contemporary country artists sneaking in there? So this is a long history, and this is another one of those things I hope to be still talking about, you know, when I'm gray.

15:22But essentially, there's been this fight in the last 30 years in country that when country gets pop, it means the sort of like twangy, like banjo-y, like more traditional music gets shoved aside. And that's partially why there's the Americana genre. but the Americana genre is its own thing with its own rules. They love bluegrass and that's not traditional country. And so I think because we had Morgan Wallen and Zach Bryan who are both country-ish artists who had super stratospheric rises and then Beyonce and Post Malone with going into it, I think that they kind of saw there really is a divide between traditional and contemporary.

16:03But then none of these people were eligible this time. Morgan and Zach didn't put their albums in for consideration. So in the end, you just got two country albums. Right. Like there's not really a difference there. And last year, Beyoncé won Album of the Year and Best Country. Yes, exactly. So that was sort of a shift in things. The Grammys is very territorial about country music. It's almost like they're just acknowledging there is this divide, but saying like we don't actually know what to do about it. Totally. I mean, even with the mention of Morgan Wallen and Zach Bryan, two slightly controversial characters in country music.

16:37Very controversial. Yes. And so it makes me wonder if, you know, Nashville being very protective of country music and what they represent, if that is like a pointed choice to not have those two submit or not be representative of the country music category in some way, or if that's some sort of joint effort. I think you're right, Danielle. I mean, I think the Grammys are no longer God's country, as Morgan Wallen would refer to it. I think there was a lot of controversy within the country music establishment when Beyonce won last year for Cowboy Carter. And I think we're seeing the results of that in people who submitted into those categories this year, which that, Rebecca, is totally unlike the Oscars.

17:31I mean, you can say you don't care about an Oscar, but you still submit. Right. Like, you're still submitting, even if you're like, I don't know, what are awards? You're still like, but I submitted in every category I was available. But the Grammys have a history of people not submitting. The Weeknd took himself out of contention for a number of years. Frank Ocean, Drake, yeah. And so that is a huge difference between the two. It speaks to what we were saying earlier about the cachet of Grammys and what they mean. You can operate completely outside of the Grammys and be the number one artist in the world.

18:10You don't need the Grammys for that. If anything, the Grammys needs you. And so when artists take themselves out of consideration, it is sort of a power move. and it says a lot about the state of the Grammys, although I think going forward, people are more excited or willing to participate within the confines of the Recording Academy. Guys, thanks for answering my dum-dum questions. I really appreciate it. Now I feel much better versed to head into our next section because after the break, we're going to talk about this year's nominees and what they might tell us about where the music industry is heading.

18:50Stay with us.

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20:37Welcome back to Little Gold Men for Vanity Fair. All right, let's get into this year's Grammy nominations, which were just announced last week on Friday. Let's start with the headlines. What did you feel like was sort of the big narrative out of the nominations? That they were good. Yeah, yeah. They were logical. They were not silly. They were not unserious. Which is a huge win for the Grammys. I think to me, you know, going into it, even as the Grammys, I think, had like a more complicated relationship with the bigger pop landscape, they have always, always, always had a lot of appreciation for Taylor Swift, for example, and Billie Eilish for like sort of young women with songwriting talent and performing talent in a way that reads to like the great American songbook like tradition.

21:29And this year was the first time in years that not one of them has not had an album in consideration. So I was kind of like, okay, what are we going to see here? And I think I'm not surprised by Lady Gaga for Mayhem. I'm not surprised by GNX Kendrick. I was pleasantly surprised by Bad Bunny. Yes, I'm so excited. Sometimes they forget to include the Spanish speaking artists. Right, especially because they have the Latin Grammys as their own entity. I think that the crossover is often, you know, a blind spot for them or something that is an oversight rather. And so to see him in the conversation is really exciting, especially this year.

22:08And then I think the thing that really, the biggest surprise to me was that Swag by Justin Bieber got more love than Justin Bieber has ever gotten from the Grammys. Which is so surprising. I mean, again, speaks to the nonsensical ways of the Recording Academy. I actually was not as surprised by that because the way he rolled it out with basically no press or promo and sort of had it as its own musical entity without the Justin Bieber-ness I think was appealing to the Grammy voter. It's an uneven album, but it did remind you that Justin Bieber is a talented pop star. Right. He still got it. Yeah.

22:58Yeah. He still got it. And the songs that work on that album are really good. And so I think when you take out all of the Justin Bieber-ness, people were able to evaluate the album a little bit more clearly. To be fair, he also did get nominated for Peaches a few years ago and got a lot of nominations for that and like the sort of R &B space. And I think that that's kind of what this album is falling into again. I just will just never, ever, ever forget the funniest moment in modern Grammys history when Esperanza Spalding, the jazz musician, who's wonderful. Lovely woman. Well, lovely woman. Very, did not deserve what happened to her when she beat Justin Bieber for Best New Artist.

23:43That was like, you know, I feel like that was what Twitter was made for. And if Justin Bieber does finally take a major win, there will be some poetic justice in that. Totally. And I do feel like the Grammys has course corrected with Best New Artist a little bit, though. And the nominations this year for that, I think, were leaning in the right direction. So Best New Artist this time around, Olivia Dean, Cat's Eye, the first American K-pop band, The Marias, Addison Rae, which I know Daniela is really excited about. Very, very excited, which I will get to. Sombra, which I'm really excited about.

24:19And then Leon Thomas, Lola Young, and then Alex Warren, whose song Ordinary demolished the charts. Yeah, inescapable on my feeds and on the Hot 100. So, Daniella, why are you excited about this group? I'm excited about this category because I think it opened its doors, especially to someone like Addison, who is a little more subversive and someone who's taking a risk. it's not traditional in the sense that you know it wasn't a hot 100 album um those singles were not everywhere it's I think it's appreciated by a more niche um group of people which is not to say that she's not a total star she is she's very famous she's probably one of the most followed people on TikTok where she got her beginnings as a TikTok dancer and to see the crossover and for them to respect the risks that she's taking, I think is really impressive because the Grammys have been restrictive in that way where they want to see someone who knows how to play piano and guitar and writes, you know, their songs and is trying to play the game and she's not.

25:23And so I think that's just really interesting and nice to see her part of the conversation. Even someone like Somber, who I know Aaron is a big fan of, he's extremely new. To this world. Yes. Extremely young. Extremely new to this world. 20 years old, my man. Those songs are huge. So it's like it feels authentic to what's going on in music right now. Even with Cat's Eye. Also interesting beginnings. We've literally watched them be formed on a reality show and break through into the mainstream and for the Grammys to still be willing to acknowledge that this product to view them as artists is really interesting.

26:03That's interesting. Are there any major snubs this year that shocked you guys? Okay, I thought it was very telling that they got Alex Warren for another TikTok star turned, you know, musician. They got him for Best New Artist, but they did not put that song in song or record. And I'm okay with that because I do get, like, you can appreciate Alex's talent as an artist and his ability to sort of, you know, he was one of the original members of the TikTok Hype House to like go from, you know, prank videos to making like credible, good music. There are some historic nominations. There are two Hype House members nominated for Best New Artist this year.

26:44Just never happened before. That really does about say it all too. Like, you know, I think the last five or six years with the exception of Billie Eilish and Dua Lipa, like they were success stories in a time when I think the major labels were just having a hard time launching new people. And I feel like you just see a much more confident music industry after like the success of Sabrina and Chapel Roan last year and Dochi that like now you're, I think that it feels a lot less like eternal identity crisis than it has in a while. Yeah, they're riding a high. For years in film and TV, the running joke was like, oh, we think we have it bad, but the music industry is always in worse crisis.

27:27And now in the past couple of years, I think the music industry is like, ha ha, you guys are in trouble. We actually are kind of stable. Like the reality is the distribution model for music is the same. It's YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, and people are paying a trillion dollars to go see these bands live. So the music industry, you know, is having its issues with AI and everything, but overall is stabilized and less in crisis and film and TV is just exploding. I mean, you can't get anyone to a movie theater, but you can sell out stadiums every night. Yeah. And I think in terms of like snubs and surprises, like we said at the top, these nominations are pretty good.