For Michelle Williams, Dying on Dying for Sex Was “Therapeutic”

0:04Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford. Today, I'm joined by Emmy nominee Michelle Williams. For her outstanding portrayal of Molly Cochin in the FX miniseries Dying for Sex, Michelle is nominated for Best Lead Actress in a Limited Series or Anthology. It's a category she previously won in 2019 for Fosse Verdon. Dying for Sex, which was written by Liz Merriweather and Kim Rosenstock, tells the true story of a woman named Molly who is diagnosed with terminal breast cancer and decides to spend the time she has left exploring her sexuality.

0:43It's a hilarious and heartbreaking story that I first heard on a podcast by her best friend, Nikki Boyer. Nikki is played by Jenny Slate in the series, and their beautiful friendship is one of the best parts of the show. In our interview, Michelle, who called in from her home where she's juggling taking care of a brand new five-month-old baby along with her three other kids, shared with me why this was the role that got her to return to acting, the challenges of getting the tone just right for the show, and why she's still optimistic about the film and TV industry.

1:17Michelle, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm such a fan of the show. As our listeners know, we've talked about it a lot. But I wanted to sort of start with what it was like to hear about the Emmy nominations. I know you've been through this rigmarole a few times before. It was really exciting to see the number of nominations and to see the people that I love and collaborated with recognized really across the board. yeah I think like Jenny Slate getting that love I thought was really special you two have such a wonderful chemistry on this show and and the way it captures female friendship uh for me that was something that I feel like I hadn't seen enough of on screen and the way you two did that was really special same and that was a really big way in for me because my female friendships have been like the stabilizing force of mostly my entire life.

2:12And when I would talk to those female friends about the idea of doing this show and what it was about, they just got this like misty, faraway look. And they said, please do this for us. Um, and for how much we love each other and for who we are to each other, um, how passionate a friendship can be. And I just related to it so much. I assume you've heard from a lot of people since the show has come out, sharing their own stories with you, their reactions to it. Have you had any that really stuck with you or surprised you? Every single one of them. It's so moving when you make something to hear back from people.

2:51Often you kind of feel like you sort of send it out and you don't know how far it goes or where it lands or what its longevity is going to be. And so when people take the time to say firsthand or secondhand, you know, from a friend or a friend of a friend or however far removed the acquaintance is when it travels back to you that something landed. It's very humbling, very, very meaningful experience. Have there been any that sort of surprised you or weren't sort of the reactions you expected from their experiences? I mean, I think it was Nikki, Nikki Boyer, I think, who told me about a pair of best friends who watched it in hospice while one of them was passing.

3:39That I never could have anticipated. I never could have imagined. And they sent Nikki a picture of them watching it, both with huge smiles on their faces. And that was not something I could have imagined. Wow. To go way back, I listened to this podcast when it came out. And I remember standing on my front porch and finishing it and just crying my eyes out. And I didn't even put together that this was the adaptation of that until, you know, I started hearing more about the show, but I understand you also sort of had a quite an emotional experience when you listened to it. Was that way back when it first came out or was that more once you were looking at it as an adaptation?

4:17Yes, same. It was a gut punch for me. And I didn't know about the show when it first came out. I was introduced to it alongside the first draft of the first episode that Kim and Liz sent to me. so it happened in tandem for me it was the experience listening to the podcast and then reading this script i finished it and thought much like i did with podcast hang on a second is that as good as i think it is i need to go back and read it immediately again and i did the same thing with the podcast what happened to me why did it overwhelm me to the point of weeping that's so unusual so i immediately went back to it and listened to the whole thing over again and wept for a second time.

4:59So then I thought, okay, here we go. I'm in. And this happened from what I understand. And then there was like a pause. You had a baby and the project was maybe went away or you weren't sure the sort of normal development of it. And then you came back to it. Is that the right way to explain the trajectory? Yeah. We were set to go when I got pregnant. And we talked for maybe one minute about continuing to do it, but employing CG and, you know, pregnancy shouldn't stop a woman from working and realized, wow, it's going to be a very difficult thing to work around, especially in a show. This was so much physical intimacy.

5:39And then I went into pregnancy and postpartum. And when I kind of poked my head up when I was on the other side of it, I asked whatever happened

5:49Michelle Williams:to that show? Who did they make it with? And they said, nobody. And so I said, well, then it's meant to be, it must be for me. And so we got back to work. Was there anything about playing this character that felt hard for you to wrap your head around a part of her story that was maybe the hardest for you to relate to or understand before you started doing the work? No, I mean, there were things that I was nervous about or unsure of how to do, but I really embraced her wholeheartedly from the very beginning and did not feel a great distance. There were challenges ahead, but I don't think that I was scratching my head about sort of her essence because such a beautiful record was left for us.

6:39Not only the podcast, also Molly wrote a book. We don't include that in our show. We chose to, it didn't quite fit, but she really wanted to finish a book before she died and she did. So I also had that to go from. So the questions that I had, the answers were sort of in front of me. The tone of the show feels like a tricky tightrope because it is a very sad story, but there's so much humor and so much personality to it, you know, as life often is. What were the conversations like with Kim and Elizabeth about getting that right? It was just that, but what's the tone? But what's the tone? Seriously, you guys, what is the tone?

7:24Because this is a lot of things. And so just tell me what the tone is. And they were like, yeah, no, we can't really. It is. It's all of this muchness and you have to just sort of, let's embrace that and let's call that the tone. And so I finally dropped that question a few episodes in and just said, okay, I'm going to go with this big soup that we're making with so many ingredients. And I hope it comes out really flavorful and bright and not muddy. and that was I really truly I mean everybody was saying that Jenny was saying that Rob was saying that anybody know that the tone is here and then we relented and just wrote on the writing yeah talk about working with Rob I know you've spoken how you all had an intimacy coordinator for those scenes but what was the conversation like or the collaboration between you and Rob to make sure those scenes felt really real and also comfortable for both of you.

8:27I think that when two people look at a piece of material like this and each decide to embark upon it, there is an immediate groundwork of trust and camaraderie and love because it's going to require you to be so intimate and so vulnerable with each other and so that's really where we started from and we had the support of the intimacy coordinator but rob and i have what would i call it like we have connective tissue and that keeps things stable but pliable underneath us. Were there ever times either of you sort of doubted the choices or the direction a scene was going and had to work through it?

9:23How did the two of you have those sorts of conversations? I think that there were things that we had nerves about doing and it's hard to get to the end of a project when you've spent so much time on it And it's hard to get to the end of a project when the end is somebody dying. And I think that we were both kind of digging in our heels, wishing we could put the brakes on and not really get to episode seven, even though everything's been leading up to episode seven. And that was painful. It was painful to sort of see it coming. And these two people were going to have to say goodbye to each other.

9:56They were going to find fulfillment. And the thing that they had been mutually questing for was going to be satisfied. but then they would have to say goodbye and rob and michelle would have to say goodbye and that's hard it's sad yeah luckily the show's been out for a while so i actually wanted to ask you about the final episode because there's a lot packed in there and i think a lot of bold choices from the sort of hallucination scene where stuff's flying off the walls and there's a flying penis and all this sort of stuff what was your thought when you saw that that was something you would need to pull off.

10:31Thrilled. We didn't have all these scripts when we started. We started with three scripts maybe and the rest would roll in. So you would be receiving this information in real time while you're engaged on one episode and the work of that episode. Then you get the information about what's happening a little bit further in the future. And so when eight landed, We'd all been hotly anticipating it.

10:59Michelle Williams:When's it going to come? When's it going to come? How are they going to do it? How are we going to land the plane? What's going to happen? What's going to happen? We were in mutual awe of what Liz and Kim had dared to dream of, i.e. flying penises, and moved and torn up and sad and ultimately excited to go get to work. The way that they combined the podcast with Molly's book with their research into the fields of bereavement, hospice, cancer, sexuality, their weaving of all of these things created something that is derived from Molly and Nikki and from the podcast, but is also their own. And it was like this other creative act entirely.

12:02More with Michelle Williams after this quick break.

12:07Michelle Williams:I may not hold a diamond, but I do hold a few opinions about Bravo. I'm Sarah Galley, certified Bravo-holic and host of Andy's Girls, the only Bravo podcast that takes housewives as seriously as they take themselves. recorded straight from my closet office or as I lovingly refer to it, the cloffice. This show offers a psychological deep dive into the drama on and off screen, not to recap per se, but to understand what's really going on. Think of it as C-SPAN meets Ayanla Fix My Life, a little stream of consciousness, a little emotional autopsy, and a whole lot of nuance. From housewives themselves to culture raiders, comedians, and everyday bravoholics, I'm joined by rotating guests to explore the psychology behind Bravo's most fascinating personalities.

12:58Michelle Williams:Because when someone storms out of a reunion or rewrites their own history mid-season, we don't just ask what happened, we ask why. So if you're looking for something different than a recap and deeper than a soundbite, you're in the right place. New episodes of Andy's Girls drop every week, streaming from the Clawfist to wherever you get your podcasts. C 'est bon, c 'est bon.

13:36Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. Here's more of my interview with Michelle Williams, Emmy-nominated star of Dying for Sex. So it sounds like you did get to shoot in order. So the last stuff you did was the death scene. And I thought that was so beautifully done. But how did you get into the headspace for that day? That was quite a space to walk into and out of. You know, they built this hospital room with a waiting room. And I think I saw it for the first time on camera. Molly is wheeled into where she's going to die. And it was emotional. I'll tell you what, though. So when you die on camera a few times and have the experience of people grieving over yourself, the feeling of standing up and walking out of there is really therapeutic.

14:35I never thought about that. Like I have a new leaf on life. I'm a new person. I won't make the same mistakes. I know why I'm here.

14:47you know towards the end of this series did playing this character who is physically dying did that have any physical stress on your own body or your your mental well-being because I can't imagine it's easy to sort of carry that I think that's why it feels such a big experience to get up and walk out of that and you know that's the part that I take part of home with me is, oh, like I get to wash off some of the makeup that's meant to make me look unwell. And I get to walk on my two strong legs and I get to leave this place and go back to my home. So that's the part that I take away. And the other things are for action and cut or the work day and I can feel the respite of returning home.

15:49And, you know, the story has been told that you, this is the project that sort of brought you back. You'd taken a couple, two years-ish off from acting at the time. Did you feel different coming back after a couple years? Like, is it like riding a bike? Did it feel exactly the same or did it feel different when you did step back into this? Yeah, I know. It had been so long, too long, two and a half years. I felt so grateful that there was a place, FX, a home that wanted to make a show about two women, one of whom is horny and dying. Written by women, directed by women, produced by women, starring women, about women.

16:36So that was never lost on me that this was a rare opportunity. So that's the other energy that I would say I took with me and was really alive in the making of this. It seems like it's a bit of a busy time for you now. You finished Chloe Domont's film, A Place in Hell? You guys are done? Yeah, we finished it. We shot it over the spring in New Jersey. And then you're also returning to the stage pretty soon. November? Is that right? Yeah, in November in the fall. And so you must be in prep for that or starting or where are you in that process? Exactly.

17:19Where am I? I'd like to go also. Oh, that part of the process. Yes. The where am I stage. I'm at the where am I stage. Thank you. Does it You haven't done theater I think since 2016 Is that going to feel Exciting, nerve-wracking What are the feelings that go with going back on stage? Has it been that long? I think I'm going to have to show up and see what happens It has been so long And it feels very different Than acting for film I have a lot to remember and a lot to learn. How would you explain what you're saying yes to at this point in your career? What makes you jump at something? Is it different than what it used to be?

18:08It's just an instinct guided by location. It's maybe the thing creatively that I think the least about because it's an instinct that happens without my presiding over it. And it happens or it doesn't. And so it's an easy yes or an easy no. And then there's location. Right, that whole family thing that you want to be near, yeah. So it's a gut thing for you. It is, yeah. Essentially. And it's always been that way from the beginning. It has, yes. Have you ever had to fight against other voices or things that have gone against your gut? maybe earlier in your career? I made some mistakes, but by and large, I'm pretty stubborn.

18:59And it's been one kind of reliable thing for me. Like I said, the one thing I don't have to overthink. Yeah, I saw in Colbert, you described yourself as a leap and then look person. Is that just career or all aspects of your life? I mean, I don't think I'm like that necessarily as a mother. So maybe when it comes to myself, that's an apt descriptor.

19:37More with Michelle Williams after this quick break.

19:48welcome back to little gold men from vanity fair here's the rest of my conversation with michelle williams emmy nominated star of dying for sex so you'll be back at the emmys in next month and i assume you're going and uh and i know you've done the oscar thing the emmy circuit you've done all these before. At this point, what do you find still, you know, we hear about how draining that can all be, but what do you find enjoyable about going through that process? Well, it's so hard to get anything made. It's so hard to make anything good. It's hard to be asked to the dance. So when I'm at the dance, I am out on the floor, look like my head thrown back and my arms up in the air and appreciating something good happening.

20:40Do you have a favorite memory from a past Oscar Emmy experience? I know you're, I always see your face in that picture they show from the envelope gate when

20:48Michelle Williams:the audience was in shock about that, but I assume you must have other personal experiences. That probably takes the cake. I don't think I can best. Being front row for that must have been really. Yeah. And we were almost in the bathroom. Busy and I were trying to take a bathroom break, but we didn't get out in time. And we didn't know what was coming up next. We weren't paying attention. And yeah, so luckily, we didn't miss it. Now you're forever a part of the Oscar history of that year. When we're looking back at your career, the industry has changed so much. and we hear a lot about what's hard right now to get things made as you're pointing out it's always been a battle but it gets harder I think especially when we're talking about things like theatrical but what keeps you optimistic about being a part of this storytelling world I suppose that people continue to seem to watch stories and crave them and return to them and so it feels like the need is there.

21:58The formatting is different, but the basic human need is there. Michelle, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

22:09Thanks for tuning in to Little Gold Men. We'll be back on Thursday to discuss all those comedy remakes that have been hitting theaters and to share some underdog nominees we're rooting for before final Emmy voting. We have one more Book Club episode left. On August 28th, we'll be discussing Ballad of a Small Player by Lawrence Osborne. The film adaptation is being directed by Edward Berger and stars Colin Farrell. You can send us your questions about that book or the upcoming film, Emmy season, or anything else to littlegoldmen at vf.com. Little Gold Men is produced by Hiba El-Arbani with mixing by Amar Lal.

22:44Connie Ness Head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon.