From Indies to Blockbusters, Paul Mescal Commands the Screen

0:01Hey, Little Gold Men listeners, especially the ones across the pond. We're recording a Little Gold Men episode live in London on the evening of February 19th with the cast of Sentimental Value. We've got a select number of tickets to give out to our listeners. So if you'd like to join the fun, email us at littlegoldmen at vf.com. We hope to see you there.

0:31Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford. Today we're once again digging into the archives and sharing a conversation I had last awards season with Paul Meskel. When we spoke, he was fresh off the premiere of Ridley Scott's Gladiator 2. It was his first big blockbuster after a string of performances in independent projects from All of Us Strangers to Aftersun, for which he earned his first Oscar nomination in 2023. Now that he's back in the Oscar-bound Hamnet, we wanted to reshare that conversation. We talked about what made him finally commit to a big studio movie, how he's approached his increasing fame, and what he thinks about people's obsession with his Gaelic football shorts.

1:18Plus, we did a round of Proust Roulette to wrap things up. Let's dive in.

1:27I'm so excited to welcome Paul to the podcast. It's the day after I've seen Gladiator 2, so it's fresh in my mind. Paul, thank you for joining me. No, thanks for having me. Tell me what it's like. Last night, Paramount did sort of a big, glitzy premiere at all their theaters on the lot, and you were there to introduce it and then do a Q &A after. I know you'd seen the film already, but what is it like to know that now the public is finally getting to see something you've worked on? Yeah, I think like regardless of whether it's Gladiator 2 or any film that you make, like it's, that's like a highly stressful moment in the life of a film is the moment when you hand the baton over to audiences.

2:09But I think this one is kind of exacerbated by the fact that there's been a 24 year lead in period to this story being told and to be an ambassador for that legacy last night. It's like, you're trying to like dial down the imposter syndrome at a rate of knots on the night. But by all accounts, the the reaction was really strong. So like, collectively, I think we're really happy with where we're sitting right now. Yeah, I think it played really, really well in theater and everyone seemed really, really happy after. So I think that was great. You know, you said on stage when you introduced it that casting me in this has totally changed my life.

2:55And I'm curious if you can break that down for me and what you mean by that. I mean, it's changed the mechanics of my life. Like, Ridley, when he wanted me to do it, I assume, I haven't even spoken to him about this, but I assume he would have had to fight for me because I've no box office credentials. There's a real generosity and a bullishness that he has with his taste. And I'm very glad that I was to his taste. But it's not lost on me that, like, this film does well, which I hope it does. And I think it will do well. It's like being in a big studio temple film, no matter how you look at it, it just changes your life and it gives you certain opportunities.

3:44And that's down to Ridley and kind of essentially nobody else. It's funny because the last time I interviewed you was the year after Sun was coming out. I think it was at a festival. And I think you were talking about how you love indies and you'd be happy doing them forever. And now... You look too. You're doing this gigantic ten-pole sequel. I assume this wasn't the first sort of big movie to come along as a script or an offer to you after you sort of broke out. But what made you say, I'm ready for this? I'm ready to take on something this big. it's a hard thing I think to describe to people that are inside the industry but outside the world of acting I think it's to do with I don't really have an interest in doing any big film where I don't see any avenue for me to act in it that and that's a taste thing that's that's nothing to do with that it's totally subjective but I think having seen the first one and knowing Ridley was going to be involved in this one and him describing the arc of the story to me I was like this is the perfect opportunity for me.

4:52Because it wasn't that I didn't have an appetite to do big films. I just didn't have an appetite to do big films that, to my mind, didn't have the substance that I wanted to spend my time on. Whereas this had both of those things, you know. So I felt ready because I could see an avenue in the film where I could do the part of the job that I love, which is diving into a character's psychology and figuring out what makes them tick. Yeah, you talked a little bit about that in the Q &A and how you think this character is very intelligent, but also is sort of deadly because he doesn't care if he lives or dies for a lot of the movie.

5:32What else did you sort of do in preparation to understand where his head was at? Where do you take inspiration from? I just felt like there was something in this part that felt Shakespearean to me. It's not like there's, of course, you're trying to find moments of naturalism, but like I have no real reference point to what it's like to feel abandoned by my mother and lose my wife in the space of the first 10 minutes of the film. So I kind of went back to the idea of when I was playing in Greek dramas in drama school, normally I think I would work inside out. And at this point I was going, what is the template or style of performance that I think is required?

6:17And kind of filling that in because I haven't done that yet. I haven't played a kind of front-footed leading man, definitely not on this scale, but that kind of template of character. And then I was like, if I can establish the style of performance, I know that my instincts will take me to places where I can like try and find little hooks of naturalism or things that people will identify because I think that's the challenge with period films in general, but especially where the stakes are so high, you have to give an audience an opportunity to go, well, regardless if this is a character who's spending his days in a coliseum fighting for his life, we still have to try and understand him.

6:59So long-winded answer, but trying to build the frame and then find moments where I could let an audience in. This film is obviously a sequel. I know you had seen the original growing up, but how much re-watching did you do of the original? Did you watch it with Ridley? No. Okay. I saw, I've seen, I'd say I've seen about three or four times growing up. And then once I was cast, I was like, I'm going to put this to bed until I'm finished the film. I watched it again recently and it's just extraordinary. But I did a similar thing when I was cast in Streetcar, Named Desire. I was like, I'm not going to watch this because it might be useful to some people.

7:43I was just like, it's not useful to me at this moment. Yeah, it would just kind of loom large. No, yeah. Not that it would loom large, but it's like, I think it would be actually weirdly neglectful to the film that you're shooting. Because it's not your job to try and recreate, you're trying to create, you know, you're trying to build something new and authentic. And of course, it's informed by the first one because of like the lineage and the legacy. but that's in the writing like I don't need to go back and watch Gladiator 1 to like remember what was so iconic about it it's like seared in every audience member's mind so it's like and also I think that's a useful way to imagine memory it's like Lucius doesn't have a like distinct memory of who his father is it's not I can't play a version that's not his true lived experience if that makes sense yeah it does yeah and this is the first role I assume that you've had to do such an extreme amount of physical demands on you between the fight training and the physical transformation.

8:51How did that process surprise you? I loved all that stuff, to be honest. Like I love the rigor of, if somebody tells me what to do, I can get competitive with it. You know, like it's, you set these targets before you start shooting and you're like, you want to put on X amount of muscle. So you just kind of get into a rhythm with it. And also I find like prep periods, the most panic inducing times anyway. So if there's something that I can do every day that is preparation for a role, then like you sign me up. Pedro Pascal is also very good in the film. You know, I think it's no surprise the two characters have their moments of fighting together.

9:37And Pedro, we did a piece where he talked about you and he said he got so strong I'd rather be thrown from a building than have to fight him again and um I'm curious if what your impression of fighting Pedro was because he's given you the ultimate compliment there yeah I mean like thank you Pedro I've like got that quote pinned on my wall or my trainer has got that quote pinned on his wall um no I think I think me and Pedro are very different in the sense, but also Pedro's like great with a sword. Like he's really, like he's done it in Game of Thrones. That was like, that was probably one of my favorite days filming because it was like, it's super intense and Pedro became one of my really good friends.

10:25So you're in an environment where you're, I'm in the middle of the Coliseum shooting Gladiator 2 with my friend and we're doing one of those moments. Pedro just threw himself into it and we both kind of just went head to head for an afternoon. Can you talk a little bit about how the physical transformation informed the character? You mentioned it a little bit in passing last night. Building the frame, both like physically and psychologically, it's like that informs how you walk, how you move. Emotional temperature, like whatever's going on physiologically, you kind of just feel like, even though you know you're not, You're preparing for violent acts, essentially.

11:09Like, you're spending the months leading up to it where you're like, the only way you can survive this film is by being able to be victorious in the arena. It feels like you're kind of building up to like, or it reminded me of like playing sport, like you're building up to like a big game and like it's kind of you're on the edge of, or you have to have aggression available to you or anger and those things that typically we try to suppress a kind of the physical training informed the psychological I would say. After the break, more of my interview with Paul Meskel. Stay with us.

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12:26Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. So because Gladiator 2 was one of the biggest movies Paul had filmed thus far in his career, I wanted him to take me back to the first big scene he shot. The first big day was in Morocco when it was the Ugartha, played by Peter Mansa, when he's doing the blessing of the troops. so it's like camels fire hundreds of extras we shot that in about 12 minutes like it's not 12 minutes but like you shoot that in half a morning and then we went straight into me giving the speech to the men on the top of the wall so that was a pretty like like a baptism of baptism of fire yeah did you feel like you thought you would feel in that moment I think most of the demons in my head existed in the four weeks after I landed in Morocco before we started filming.

13:26There was about a month, like let's say three or four weeks. That's when it was like at its peak. And I think something settled for me when Ridley slapped me in the back and said, your nerves are no fucking good to me. And then he throws me into that scene and then puts me on top of the wall and he's like, OK, give the speech to your men. I was like, okay, this is what he means. This is going to be recorded forever. Your nerves are actually no good to him, but they're also no good to me. You want to be proud of your work, and especially the rate that Ridley works at and the speed with which he works at.

14:00There's no dead space. You're not filming any filler time in the film at any moment. It's all probably going to be used. You're not doing 12 takes. It's like when the camera's turning over, it's probably going to be in the film. And I imagine that being number one on a call sheet for a movie like this is a little bit different. What was that experience like for you? I mean, obviously, Ridley is the leader of his sets, but there is a certain tone set by number one on the call sheet as well. yeah I suppose that's probably a question to other people I think I don't know what tone I said I know that I like work hard and I can say that comfortably but um I think if there was a tone set I think it would have been with the relationship that I think like a couple of days into Morocco me and Ridley I if I'm being honest I never expected to go into the film and go like Ridley Scott is going to be my friend.

15:01I was like, I'm going to be working with one of the greatest directors of all time. But then there was something that happened at a certain point where I was like, oh, there's a close collaboration that I think I probably had judged because I've had that on kind of more independent films, but I just assumed that that wasn't going to happen. And it did. And I think that gave me a huge amount of relaxation because I was like, ultimately if you cut all the noise of large-scale filmmaking that the same rules apply and it's like I think the film benefits if you see the lead actor and the director having a clarity of purpose and respect for each other and that was apparent to me very early in the shoot.

15:42That's interesting yeah I think with names like Ridley Scott and Denzel Washington. Yeah you assume that there's and it makes total sense to me that's probably the big learning I've had from it it's like respect and admiration are really healthy things to have but I don't think you should wear them openly because I think it makes it alienating for people to work if they're feeling constantly admired like I would hate that if I got to a certain point in my career where you have actors coming onto set and they're like sycophantic or they're I think it's a deeply uncreative atmosphere to be in because then you feel like oh you've already impressed them whereas actually I think people want an avenue to be creative and feel like they can make mistakes.

16:24So I was kind of keen to keep those boundaries in place early on with like Ridley and Denzel. But every actor that I work with, it's like respect and admiration are good things to have. And I have them, but it's not a good place to start a scene from, you know? Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah, it's so collaborative. of. Did you have anything you did every day to get into character, whether it's like music or some inspiration you read, or was it just putting on the costume? What really clicked it in for you? Yeah, I feel like costume for me as an actor is always like a kind of junction in the day when something changes.

17:00So with this, it was a particularly like steeper step, I would say. And then you're kind of spending a lot of the time. I listen to music with each character that play. But I think I got into a rhythm with this with Ridley because of the... I've never worked with a director that shoots as quickly as he does. And I think it caters to my own lack of patience as well. But I'm not used to it like when I filmed anything else. So with this, I kind of felt like a latent kinetic energy once we would step on set every day. I wanted to match Ridley's speed, like internally. And I think that's your job as an actor for the most part, is like find out what your director wants, how you can carve an avenue alongside them, but also you want to be working in, like almost cohabitating their rhythm or their language with them.

17:53Was there any part of his journey or story that you sort of struggled to understand or get right as you were in preparation? It caused me anxiety. His relationship with his mother, I wanted to be pretty robust. I didn't want to preempt where we get to in that with the discovery of why he was abandoned. So there's a key scene for me, which is the first scene that we meet Lucius and Lucilla in the cell, where Connie's desires in the scene and my desires in the scene are totally in conflict. and Connie will say this herself there was pretty robust discussions on the day about what that scene would look like, like Connie's desires to come near and touch me and I remember in the rehearsals I was just like backing into the corner of the room like ready to bite her hand but I think that's an important it was important for me that there was no kind of sense that he would soften in that scene in particular because it's too early, like there's no reason for that to happen.

18:59And there's such few moments with them that you're trying to fill, which is the nature of these kind of bigger films like this are more compressed in terms of story, which is a really interesting challenge for actors. But that relationship to me was one that was, essentially drives the character from having nothing to live for to suddenly a legacy to fulfill. And it's tied to that relationship for me. Yeah, Ridley really is the master of like a giant battle scene that feels fresh and then still feels personal with the way he cuts in close-ups. And it's just, this movie reminds you of that so much, you know, that he does it like nobody else.

19:38And I really think that that opening, I'm a huge, and have been for forever, a huge fan of his work. But that opening sequence in Morocco to me is like one of his best battle sequences that I've ever seen. I think it's one of the best battle sequences that I've seen full stop in any film. Yeah, it's hard to make them feel original because you've seen so many and he does it. Plus the monkeys, but we won't talk about the monkeys. I know, yeah. After the break, the rest of my interview with Paul Meskel. We'll talk about his career path and his experience of award season. Stay with us.

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21:19Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. Gladiator 2 was Paul's seventh movie to come out in the four years since his breakout turn on Hulu's Normal People. And at the time, he had three more films yet to come out, including Hamnet. So I wanted to know, how was he handling that breakneck pace? Here's Paul. My neck's actually really sore now. It actually is. I don't really know how to explain it. I think it's like you look at somebody like Ridley and his rhythm makes sense to me. Maybe now is the first time that I've thought about like, it would be nice to have like three months somewhere where I'm not.

22:05But also I say this to you now, but I also know that there's like, I have a large appetite for work. And I think like before there's like a family on the scene or life gets in the way, I think now is the time to put my foot down and hopefully audiences don't get bored of me, but hopefully we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. I don't think people are going to get bored of you. I know, but you know what I mean? Like it happens. Yeah, when you see someone too much. When you see someone too much. But I also think like you can offset that by doing something like Gladiator versus something like Aftersun.

22:37And if you're able to retain the same appetite, but maintain your standard that you've set for yourself, it hopefully makes it easier for an audience to encounter your work. Even if they want to hate you because they're bored of you, you'd hope that the films kind of survive on their own merit. Do you ever get worried about burnout? Do you have ways to protect yourself from getting there? I think I do worry about burnout, but it's in direct conflict with wanting to work. But I think the minute the work would start to suffer, then you have to start making decisions and go like, it's actually as much as it would be painful to take about a year or two years out.

23:21I don't think I'm there yet. I'm just going to like shut my ears to it and cross it when I get to it. you know this is our awards podcast and and obviously you got your first oscar nomination with after sun and i'm curious what were sort of the highlights and lowlights of doing the whole oscar campaign being a part of that machine for you that was such a if that was to ever happen to me again that would be a very distinct experience the after sun one because it was it's a film that like in terms of pride, like that's a film I hope will be associated with me until the day that I die. But I think with a film like that, that's not a film that it's supposed to happen for.

24:06Right. It was a big surprise. It was a real surprise. And I think it kind of reaffirmed to me that actually people were going to go and see that film. And I also managed to avoid the whole campaigning for it like it was like it was the it was the like we did bits and bobs but like I was doing the play at the time because nobody was like A24 would even say this I don't think they were anticipating it so it was like I was off doing my play and then it was kind of just we were creeping in into lists at certain moments so it was like the dream of not really campaigning and uh and it happening so what was it sort of the highlight and lowlights of being the highlight The highlight was getting the nomination and the highlight was also not really having to do a huge amount of campaigning for it.

24:55It's actually like the dream Oscar. Yeah, it's literally, it doesn't get better than that. It's just like showing up and actually doing a play is one of the best ways to not have to campaign. I know. Trust me. Trust me. You can quote me on that. We recently had Richard Linklater on the podcast and he was talking about Merrily We Roll Along. But I'm curious for you where you are in that process. I know it shoots a little and then doesn't shoot for a while. Yeah, we do another slot this year. And then I think we have a chunk of time off. But Rick has kind of said to us, like, the less we talk about that, the better.

25:37Because I think we're just shooting ourselves in the foot. If we talk about this for like 20 years, anticipation is going to be through the roof. It'll be like gladiator press cycle all over again. I know what I was talking to him about how he's the only director who's able to do that sort of incredibly strange process. It's so interesting. Like, I think it'll be because we're also shooting something kind of behind the scenes. And I was thinking about it this week, like what that will look like. Because I think it allows you as an actor to be more candid in that environment because, you know, you're not going to have to deal with the fallout of what you're saying for 20 years.

26:14You know, so I'm like really curious to see what we were taught, like how that resonates personally in whatever it is, 15, 16 years time. It's like a personal time capsule for you as well, which is very interesting. So I think you mentioned this a little bit, but Gladiator will obviously raise your profile even more. And I'm curious how you mentally prepared for that. Are you sort of ready for, has the way you view fame, I guess, changed as you've been approaching this? You're right. Like being in a big studio film and if it goes well and lots of people go to see it and it does well at the box office, it will, it just literally means that there's more eyes on you.

26:56But I think for me, the sharpest moment of the ascent was actually after normal people. Like that was the most distance was traveled in that world. Right. I think with this, it's like I've had kind of five years that like there's also other junctions like the Oscar nomination changes certain things. And just kind of being in the world for five years kind of gives you an opportunity to develop a language for yourself. So the answer to that is I'm kind of closing my eyes, hoping for the best. And I will just deal with those problems as they arise. Or fingers crossed, it'll just be gravy and nobody will stop me going to the shops.

27:42And I'll be fine. I know your fashion, your Gaelic football shorts has come up plenty and how the sales really increased for fans of your style. But I'm curious, does that ever make you think about what you wear before you head out? I think that's the point. I think if I thought more about what I wore in, say, like more casual settings, I probably wouldn't wear shorts. is they're just like very comfortable items of clothing. But I do, like that being said, like I do like clothes. It sounds like a basic sentence, but like, yeah, it's fun. We're going to wrap this up with a couple of questions from our Proust questionnaire.

28:28It's this very iconic questionnaire we do in the magazine we've done for many decades. So we're just going to pick a couple of questions from there and they're very fun. Let's start with what is your greatest extravagance? Not looking at the minibar prices when I'm in hotel rooms. That's a new thing for me. Growing up, I remember my mom and dad being like, the minibar was totally off limits. And so whenever I take something from the minibar, it always feels deeply extravagant. What do you take? What are your top minibars? It's like you would take a can of Coke out of the minibar and if you looked at the price of it, it would be like$8 or something insane.