From Uncanny Valley: The Creators of 'Hacks' Really, Really, Really Hate AI

25:21Like, why didn't Jimmy read the contract more closely? Great question. And make sure that this woman was not, like, signing a deal with the devil. So, Paul. I think Jimmy did know. I thought, not to defend my man, but Jimmy knew the contract. And I think Debra knew the contract, too. She just never, ever could have imagined a world where she would have left the show. Because she was living the dream, so why would she ever? She's like, I might get fired. Fine. Then they have to pay me out. I'm not going to leave. You know, that seemed it seemed so far fetched to her. But as she says in the show, she didn't realize it, but her dream changed.

25:54You know, the landscape changed. And so did she. Good reminder for everyone. Read the fine print and then negotiate a better contract. I want to talk to you about AI, too, which is obviously a huge and very fraught topic for us, for our audience. You know, it's been top of mind for me recently. We just closed our next print issue and package, which is all about AI and work. And one of the pieces, Truth Stranger Than Fiction, applies very well here. It's from an underemployed, I hope she doesn't mind me saying that, she describes herself as underemployed, an underemployed Hollywood writer who's now making ends meet by doing gig work training LLMs.

26:26And it's like her and a bunch of her friends, and they're just like running from slack to slack trying to like get gigs, training LLMs. It's very, very bleak. It's a very bleak story about not only artificial intelligence and how it's made, how it's trained, how these models come to be, but also about the entertainment industry and sort of what is going on with employment prospects for people. I'm curious about how you're seeing AI affect your world right now. You know, we are hearing about it and talking about it so much, but we personally do not use it in any way, shape or form. We personally won't work with people who use it.

27:10We are completely anti-AI in the creative process in any possible way. I think it's been completely forced upon the creative world as a way to minimize our talent, minimize our ability to have employment. And it's frankly insulting. and I feel badly for this woman because yes there should be a more sustainable industry that doesn't force her to be in this position so I'm not necessarily frustrated at her but the system that is forcing her to be in this position but you know for us and this is something that we do explore in an episode the creative process we got that we do not need AI coming in and disrupting the thing that is about humanity.

27:58The last thing we need in the expression of humanity is robots coming in and telling us how it should feel and how it should look. And, you know, it's just, it's like so deeply offensive to me on every level. Even if it comes down to, and I know that people feel differently about this, even if it's like, oh, I don't want to write that email, I'll have AI write that email for me. Just the fact that you're not willing to, You don't want to think. You simply don't want to think. The repercussions of people not wanting to think is so disturbing to me because really they don't want to think because it doesn't feel good.

28:35They're literally trying to avoid feelings. And the more that we take feelings out of being human, and we do that over and over in every different way of our lives, where does that leave us? Not to mention the fact that people aren't reading as much because of AI. And so their reading comprehension is plummeting. I mean, it's so disturbing to me on so many levels. I really, I have to stop talking. I'm getting damn pissed off. It's okay. It's okay. I hear you and I understand. And, you know, I think what's been interesting for me when I have sort of tried using Chachi BT, I can feel the atrophy of my own mental cognitive abilities happen so quickly that it's scary and I have to stop.

29:18Like, I don't like it because I became a journalist to write, like to be a writer. And if I no longer write and I become complacent and I let it, I let AI write for me, then the idea of writing feels so much harder. Like writing is already hard. It can be very hard, but the process is the point. Like the process is how you get to that end product and you have that feeling of satisfaction and your brain is tired and it was hard and it sucked, but it was satisfying. And I think the idea of all of us losing that and just becoming these little like blob bots, these little like blobby blobs hanging out in our blob world, like with our agents doing all of our work for us, is really strange.

30:01And I'm the editor of Wired, and I think it's really, I'm sorry, like, I get a lot of criticism from some of our former fans who don't understand why we're not all in on AI. And we're not, and for a very good reason. So I totally understand what you're saying. Yeah, I think you're right. The argument being it makes life easier is exactly what you're saying. It takes out the grist, the thing that's hard. You know, it takes out the thinking. And I think, therefore I am. If you're not thinking, you're not existing. And I do think it's, especially when it comes to the creative process and comedy in particular, you're a comedian because you've tried a joke a million times and it fails and you get up and you do it again and it bombs and you try it a different way.

30:41And then you find your voice and you figure out who you are. And I think trying to take the work and the struggle and the friction out of the creative process makes it not art. And I think even beyond that, when people say, well, really helped me do a rendering of my backyard. Now I know where I want to put my rose bushes. I'm like, that's great. But think about the cost. Think about the cost of training an LLM and how much easier it will be for a studio to say, I'm going to hire one writer and I'm going to have an LLM write all the episodes and one writer can do the rewrite. You know, like it is taking jobs away.

31:11And when there's an argument around feminism, around gender equality, we have to understand it. Well, you can understand it, but know that the thing that it's benefiting, especially in production, film production, is the top 1%. It is the people that stand to benefit the most and profit the most. It is the shareholders who get to say, we don't need a VFX house. We can just do it with this. We don't need to hire any of those people. Okay, I have one more complaint. Please. I know you're like, we're going to edit all this out. It's too long. I mean, I understand if you want to, but the other thing that is so interesting to me is if you have nothing new to say, if you're using AI to write, all it's doing is scraping everybody else's thoughts and mixing it up and maybe shifting it into your style, but it's not really saying anything new.

31:55So all you're making is just, you're reheating literally everybody else's nachos, as it were. You're just, you're not saying anything fresh and new. And if you're not doing that, then a little bit like, why are you even saying anything as a creative in Hollywood? Why do you even want to put your name on something that some LLM has generated? Like Paul's saying, of course, if you're a boss and you don't want to hire writers, then you don't care either way. But from a creative, and I've heard about creatives who I previously really respected using AI to generate their outlines in the style of me.

32:31And I just feel, honestly, I feel sad for them because they're just not interested in even stretching their minds forward. They're okay with just doing an average of the past. I mean, we have seen Hollywood types embrace AI very publicly, right? I feel like there's a new one every week. There was this bizarre like mini scandal involving Reese Witherspoon a few weeks ago where I was like, why is Reese Witherspoon all over my Instagram talking about AI? You know, you have Matthew McConaughey investing in 11 labs. You've got really prominent sort of A-list celebrities out there talking about embracing the technology.

33:04Does the industry need a more united front here? I mean, what has to happen to sort of safeguard the creative process in Hollywood? And do you feel like that's even possible? Do you feel like you're sort of screaming into the void or do you feel like there are there is enough concern and sort of enough will that there is a path forward here? I mean, I want to be hopeful. I know that the Screen Actors Guild, you know, I think the unions do need to flex whatever muscle they have to help. Make guardrails happen, because we can do that at least in terms of contracts with the studio when there are negotiations.

33:34But it's really hard when it's not on a federal level, when it's, you know, I think it's it does feel sometimes like screaming into the void. Even if you are doing protections against like, well, you can't use my face in a movie if I don't give you permission. Like, sure, that's helpful. But I think that the ramifications are so far beyond that that I don't know how you put guardrails in place. I don't know. I also think it's garbage. I think it's a bubble that will pop because it's useless. I mean, and I'm not saying that all AI is useless. I do think, of course, in like medical fields and in science, there's certainly computational abilities of AI that are beyond human ability.

34:19I'm talking specifically in the writing, in writing, especially what comedy or whatever. I just think it's not good. It's not good. And it's never going to be good. So come at me, zeros and ones. I think you suck. Let me move on to something a little more fun. Let's end with a little bit of levity. I want to talk about fandom for a minute. So on the show, Deborah has her little Debbies. We love them. I mean, we love most of them. They're terrifying. And this season, Jimmy also meets one of his idols in a very embarrassing and adorable scene. But you sort of, you nod to fans and this idea of fandom and sort of how wonderful but how insane they can be.

35:01But you also, I mean, Hax has a fandom. You've experienced the world of fandom. I was in your Reddit earlier just checking out what people had to say. How would you describe the Hacks fan base? I mean, what are the fans like? Well, I only know the fans that approach me mostly or things that I don't seek it out. I don't read the Reddit. Yeah, I was going to say, do you read the comments? Like, are you one of those? No. I mean, I'll see comments on my Instagram. You know, I will see those comments. So I do see some of them, and some of them you can't avoid because there'll be like a reposting of a tweet that did really well about the show.

35:39And so you do see, I do get a sense of it, but I don't seek it out. I'm not somebody who's reading everything. Jen and I have a more complicated relationship with it where that we both ebb and flow with our intake of the, like, I didn't, for example, this season I read one review and that was it. One review like from mainstream press, like from the media. Yes, yes, yes. Wow. Yes. That is very, that is a very limited intake. Maybe a second one that somebody sent me. But originally, like, I'm very, very sensitive about the show being seen. We put so much love and care. It really is our baby. So it's like, you're writing about my child, you know?

36:20And as for the Reddit, like, I ebb and flow on going to it and seeing it and not reading it at all. It really depends on, like, my emotional state. In general, I believe the fandom of Hax is very lovely. Really just mostly people who love the show, who like watch every episode five times or just like continue to rewatch and then go back to the beginning and rewatch again and like are so loving and sweet. That is, I think, how the Hax fandom is. There's, of course, like the subsect of it of the Ava shippers who want them to be together romantically. Oh my God, is there Hax fanfic? I didn't even think.

36:57Oh. Oh. Yeah. Oh my God. I can't believe I didn't look for this. I am aware of that. You okay. You're both aware of the fanfic and I'm, I'm late to this. So there's my Monday evening reading. I can't wait. I've never read it. Honestly, I haven't read it. I read one once. And as soon as it kind of like graphic or something, I was like, I shouldn't be seeing. I think that's the point. I shouldn't be seeing this. I think they're probably all having sex. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of Ava fanfic and there's a lot of like edits, like, you know, video edits of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen those two. I guess they have made its way to me.

37:31Yeah, for someone who doesn't read the comments, I mean, people do send it to us a lot often. And sometimes it's so fun. And part of the comments that I always get are make them kiss, make them a couple. I mean, I get those comments every day. I mean, I scream that at the TV when I'm watching you and Kayla. Oh, thank you. There are a lot of people watching me and Kayla together. Yeah, that is so interesting. Meg included. And you know, Kola Skolov of O'Mary fame was a consultant on season one, and that was kind of their first pitch was Jimmy and Kayla get married. Well, after they saw season one, they texted, okay, they get married.

38:09Totally. They get married in the end. Thank God. I totally understand. I love that. The Hacks and Estas are amazing. The Hacks and Estas. I will say this. Like, the Hacks fans have allowed us to have the show. Yeah. allowed us to do five seasons because the fact that they have been so rabid about it and told friends to watch and gotten groups together to watch and engage online about it. You know, all of those things nowadays when people are making business decisions about whether or not a show will have another season, engagement, online mentions, all of those things are factored in. And so to be honest, as much as I like don't read because I can be sensitive, I also worship our fans.

38:50I appreciate our fans and their engagement so much. Oh, that's going to end up in fanfic. Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, well, it will. And then I'm curious, lastly, about sort of how you've promoted the show. And this might just be my algorithm. I watch the show. I follow you on social media. And so you are everywhere on my Instagram and TikTok. Like, I know what you think the best bread in LA is. I've seen you tell two truths and a lie you all have done a lot of promotion and it's very heavy on social media and I'm wondering from sort of the earlier days of your career or sort of the first season of the show obviously the show is a success right so more people want to talk to you etc etc but have you seen the way television or a project is promoted change over five seasons right like where everything is a social clip like what stands out to you about the kind of promotion that you were doing three, four, five years ago compared to what you're doing now, where you're recommending bread, you're telling true truths and a lie.

39:49Like you're participating in many formats, right? You're doing a lot of different, a lot of different brands have formats that they make for social and you're in all of them. How has that changed? It's wild how social clips travel and how people see them and then know about the show. You know, it used to be that like, God, could you imagine getting on The Tonight Show? And I still, well, I've never been on The Tonight Show, would love to do it. But doing subway takes, I got probably as many views, you know, doing that. Oh, I'm sure. Or more. Yeah. Yeah, it's really, it is kind of wild. And it's also the way that things get to me.

40:27Because I don't, you know, I don't see The Today Show every morning. And I don't see an interview on The Today Show. But if there's a clip from it that's really funny, that ends up finding its way to me. In the same way that even late night clips. I see Colbert. I watch Colbert. But then if I've missed an episode, it's aggregated to me. The thing that it wants me to see, I do end up seeing. So it is interesting that it's kind of a whole new world of promoting a show. Things that you might have been like, two truths and a lie? Is that really something that you want me to do? And the network's like, absolutely.

41:04And it's like, oh, yeah, because it's – people see it. People do see it, yeah. It was very funny. I think part of what – the reason that the Hacks ones do tend to be aggregated and spread a lot is because Gene and Hannah and Paul and Meg and Rose and Carl and Mark, like, they're like – we all really genuinely, like, love each other and love hanging out and love chatting. And so I think that, like, sometimes it's almost like parasocial. It's like, I love just watching them because personally I do. I like watching them because I'm like, it feels like they're my friends. I mean, they are my friends, but I just do feel like there's like a casual ease to the relationships that all these people have that makes it fun to watch.

41:45And so I think sometimes when it's like a movie and it's like these people knew each other for 45 days and now they're promoting a movie and they have to pretend that they're in a relationship or something. With this group of people, we've become family over the course of six years. So really, I think that there is something underneath that that is so authentic and real. And these are real relationships that does make it a little bit more fun to watch. All right, another quick break here and we'll be back with our favorite game.

42:15I may not hold a diamond, but I do hold a few opinions about Bravo. I'm Sarah Galley, certified Bravo-holic and host of Andy's Girls, the only Bravo podcast that takes housewives as seriously as they take themselves. Recorded straight from my closet office, or as I lovingly refer to it, the cloffice, this show offers a psychological deep dive into the drama on and off screen, not to recap per se, but to understand what's really going on. Think of it as C-SPAN meets Ayanla Fix My Life, a little stream of consciousness, a little emotional autopsy, and a whole lot of nuance. From housewives themselves to culture writers, comedians, and everyday Bravo-holics, I'm joined by rotating guests to explore the psychology behind Bravo's most fascinating personalities.

43:06Because when someone storms out of a reunion or rewrites their own history mid-season, we don't just ask what happened, we ask why. So if you're looking for something different than a recap and deeper than a soundbite, you're in the right place. New episodes of Andy's Girls drop every week, streaming from the Clawfist to wherever you get your podcasts. C 'est bon, c 'est bon.

43:38As my kids are getting older, I've been trying to renovate our outdoor space to fit their endless energy and desire for exploration. That's why I turned to Wayfair when I was looking for quality products that could stand up to real life. I recently got a wooden outdoor mud kitchen and a sandbox from Wayfair to transform our outside patio into a fun play area. Wayfair also has tons of options for outdoor seating to make it a tranquil area for adults too. Wayfair has options that fit every style and every budget so you can create a home you love. You can also shop with Wayfair Verified, your shortcut to durable pieces hand-vetted by product specialists using a 10-point quality inspection.

44:22Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5 % back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Wayfair. Every style, every home. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

45:06Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans.

45:20I'm going to end with a very quick game, if you'll indulge me. Yes. Okay. The game is called Control-Alt-Delete. We made it up ourselves.

45:31And you can take turns or you can each do your own, but I want to know, what piece of technology would you love to control? What piece would you love to alt, so alter or change? And what would you love to delete? Vanquish from the earth. With a caveat, a disclaimer, so many people have said AI that my producers are now forcing me to get more specific. You need to say specifically what about AI or what specific type of AI because it can't be all AI. God, that's the only rule. Okay. Okay. I'm just going to start with alt, which is internet. I got to alt internet because on one hand, like it's the reason I feel I have a career.

46:10Like I said, we started out on YouTube. I literally learned how to edit using YouTube and like the internet, especially in that kind of right after I graduated late aughts, early tens, like really made my career possible. So I can't totally hate on internet. But it just feels like especially in sorry to say this like AI slop culture where it's like, I just don't know what's real and what's not. It's getting so scary. It's getting crazy that you cannot believe what you see. And so I do feel that like anything that isn't real should not be allowed to be uploaded. So I'd like to control the internet for accuracy, an accurate internet.

46:55For accuracy. For accuracy. I believe if everything was just like it was forced to be completely true, then I'm like, let's go internet. Otherwise, it's not for me anymore. It's very ambitious. I like that. Control government. Can we do control government? You can control government. Medicaid for all. Here's my hot platform. You ready for it? I'm ready. I believe that if you get a certain college GPA, whatever it is, let's say 3.5, and a certain MCAT score, whatever a good MCAT score is, that you should be allowed to go to medical school as a doctor or a nurse for free and the government should pay for it.

47:34Because I think if you are intelligent enough and you want to be a doctor and help people, that there should be no financial roadblock to doing so. And I think that everybody should be able to be a doctor and we could solve so many issues if health care was more accessible to people in this country, including mental health. Okay, there we go for that. That's my government hot day. Lovely. Wonderful. Canadian, so I agree with you. Dual citizen, but I lean into the Canadian thing now because… That's so cool. Who wouldn't? Yeah. I know why. I have an Italian passport, so you know me. I'm one foot on the damn plane.

48:13Yeah, I can imagine. And what do you delete? Do you have a delete, Paul? Yeah, do you have a delete? Yeah. Do we do all of them? Whatever. Choose your own adventure. You do delete. Okay, so I would control... I guess I would control social media so I'm not tagged in unflattering photos. But the photos are allowed to exist on the internet. You just don't want to be tagged in them. I can take them off. No, no. I want to be able to control that. Oh, you want to remove the photo. I see. Yeah. Alt. I guess I would do an alt version of Bluetooth. And actually, speaking of subway takes, this was Zoe Kravitz had this hot take, which I agree with.

48:47She's like, Bluetooth does not work. That was a really good one. It doesn't work. We need Bluetooth to work. My alt is, I want Bluetooth. I think that would be good, but it never connects. I need it to work. So let's alt that. Let's figure it out. And then delete. Even though I said I want to control social media, I think I might delete social media. I get it. Control it by deleting it. Look, I think that there's so much joy and discovery that I have. I do, you know what I mean? I do enjoy keeping up with things or people or seeing that Colbert clip that I missed or whatever. But I think I am so sad for a generation of people that don't have what I had, which was not having it.

49:23It's so scary. I'm like, I don't want people looking at their phones so much. I just want that to go away. How would you promote the show, though? I think if we deleted social media, I think there would be so much more interest and appreciation of journalism. I think people would have to go back and read the art section. How dare you ask that question, actually? How dare you? We're going to get more subscribers. I think that's how it would change. If there's no social media, where are you going to get your entertainment and see a really beautiful couch? it's going to be coverage in traditional media.

50:00You know, it's not going to be in your explore page. It's going to be... You're going to Architectural Digest. Yes, you are. Another fabulous Condé Nast brand. Thank you for that reference. That's right. You're reading Talk of the Town of the New Yorker. You're getting on Wired. You're looking at Architectural Digest in print. You know what I mean? I'm like, you're helping Condé Nast in any way you can. And that's really what this is all about, isn't it? Well... It's what you get up in the morning to do. I know that. Thank you both so much. This was so much fun. The series finale of Hacks will be out Thursday, May 28th on HBO.

50:30Thank you both.

50:34The Big Interview is a production of Wired and Kaleidoscope content. This episode was produced by our showrunner Anne-Marie Fertoli. Kate Osborne is our executive producer. Music and mixing by Pran Bandy. This episode was fact-checked by Matt Giles. And I am, of course, your host, Katie Drummond, Wired's Global Editorial Director. Check back here on Thursday for the latest episode of Uncanny Valley, where Wired's writers and editors add you to their Slack channel.

51:10I may not hold a diamond, but I do hold a few opinions about Bravo. I'm Sarah Galley, certified Bravo-holic and host of Andy's Girls, the only Bravo podcast that takes housewives as seriously as they take themselves. recorded straight from my closet office or as I lovingly refer to it, the cloth-ice. This show offers a psychological deep dive into the drama on and off screen, not to recap per se, but to understand what's really going on. Think of it as C-SPAN meets Ayanla Fix My Life, a little stream of consciousness, a little emotional autopsy, and a whole lot of nuance. From housewives themselves to culture raiders, comedians, and everyday bravoholics, I'm joined by rotating guests to explore the psychology behind Bravo's most fascinating personalities.

52:00Because when someone storms out of a reunion or rewrites their own history mid-season, we don't just ask what happened, we ask why. So if you're looking for something different than a recap and deeper than a soundbite, you're in the right place. New episodes of Andy's Girls drop every week, streaming from the Clawfist to wherever you get your podcasts. C 'est bon, c 'est bon.

52:33This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.

53:06I'm Vincent Cunningham. I'm Nomi Fry. I'm Alex Schwartz. And we host Critics at Large from The New Yorker. Each week we pick a starting point. The new novel you can't stop thinking about, the movie everybody's seeing this weekend, and we kind of go galaxy brand with it. Right, we take the ideas at the center of these things and trace them across history, across mediums, all to get to the bottom of why this particular text is important right now in politics and culture and also in your everyday life. We go highbrow, we go lowbrow, we go everything in between. Food culture to meme culture, Charlie XCX to Toni Morrison.

53:43K-pop to the Kennedys. From horror movies to heated rivalry. From the Oscars to the Met Gala. The Golden Bachelor to Wuthering Heights, great expectations to desperate housewives. That's what we're talking about over here. We're having fun. It's Critics at Large from The New Yorker, every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.