How the Oscars Have Changed — and Changed Us

24:50As in things that seem as if they came out in a year or several years before or after that their Oscar and awards trajectory could have been completely different. I was watching Kelly Reichardt's Wendy and Lucy, and what really struck me is how Nomadland adjacent it was, and I think Michelle Williams would run the table with her performance. I mean, we could just make this about Kelly Reichardt, but... Yeah, that's a good pick, I mean, because there are I would argue that Nomadland is a bit more sweeping and cinematic than is Wendy and Lucy, which is a great movie. But yeah, that's an interesting question that I have to think about.

25:23Do either of you have an answer ready? Well, a movie that I was thinking about, I don't know if it exactly fits in this, but Selma in 2015. Because I think Ava made a very special film there with incredible performances. And it got nominated for Picture and I think one other nomination, which sounds great on paper. but I just feel like it wasn't given the space it should have had in the awards conversation at the time and David Oyelowo gave an incredible performance in that role and as we all know that sort of contributed to that conversation about Oscar's so white but at the time the makeup of the Academy was so different and I think it was an incredible film and in a different time with a different Academy that would have been very different.

26:08I think this comes up sometimes with directors before they are on the Academy radar. we were just talking about some of those 1999 movies that are from directors who are now such mainstays at the Oscars so that's one area you could look in and I think Kelly Reichardt is a filmmaker who I considered First Cow to be a near masterpiece and that was a pretty thin Oscar year because it was the COVID year and it didn't get any nominations and so sometimes there are just these filmmakers that no matter how great their movies are, how acclaimed they are it just is not clicking She, to me, is an example of like ever wrong place, ever wrong time, unfortunately.

26:44An example I was thinking of is A Separation, the Oscar Faraday film. If only because this was, you know, a little over a decade ago, maybe 15 years ago, and it was such an international sensation. You know, it was such a critical darling. It was all over those best of the century lists that we've seen come out over the last few months. It's a brilliant movie. And I think it's a movie that with today's Academy, would have been a Best Picture Player, Best Director nomination, probably screenplay contender for a win in the way that Anatomy of a Fall won, but it was kind of reduced to a surprise screenplay nomination and the international feature wins.

27:20So I always think of movies like that, really great international films that did get celebrated at the Oscars to an extent that would just perform so much better nowadays. Yeah, and thinking about like how international films have been embraced more and more, I think about someone when he was really operating at like peak form. So like In the Mood for Love was what, early 2000s? So like Wong Kar Wai, I think for sure would be like an Oscar mainstay if he was making those films now, you know? And maybe there's something coming down the line that will do that for him. But yeah, I think there are a couple films that he made about 25-ish years ago that would have been pretty major at the Oscars as they exist now.

28:01It's wild that In the Mood for Love was not even nominated for the Oscar. I know, it's so crazy. Our next question comes from Ben. A simple question, but one that I'm going to have to think about a little bit. What has been the most annoying film discourse to witness during your time at Vanity Fair? Oh, man. It's hard because I feel like I immediately forget drama of a season as soon as the Oscars have wrapped up. There are so many. I mean, for whatever reason, what sprang to mind was like the whole, like, is First Man, the astronaut movie, is that anti-American because of something Ryan Gosling said or something about like an American flag and then that was crazy Ted Cruz or somebody who hadn't even seen the movie like stuff like that is so maddening because nine times out of ten it's people who have not seen the movie so I think any discourse where people are arguing about something that very few people have seen yet is pretty frustrating yeah you're right it's when it happens based on trailers that it's the most maddening I think people keep telling me that the whale won an Oscar and I'm just like no come on that's fake news No, that didn't happen, Richard.

29:08That didn't happen. I've got one. This is more the way movies get talked about in the prognostication predicting circles. But I just found the way that women talking was discussed to be very, very, very frustrating from the moment it premiered. And it has nothing to do with whether you think it's a truly great movie or not. I happen to. A lot of people who I respect, whose taste I think is great, do not, and that's fine. but it sort of immediately became pegged as well the academy has mostly men in it still and this is a movie for women and it's a small movie so therefore it'll never get nominated for best picture i mean there was a there was a lot of talk around that um and i remember it quite vividly because i covered the movie quite a lot i talked to sarah polly and francis mcdormand actually about this very subject on this very podcast and they found it really frustrating it was something that took on a life of its own and i think actually did affect the movie a little bit in the the way its scope was considered.

30:06It was very much put into a niche that I don't think it deserved. And you see this happen every year with movies that, to be very frank, are not about straight white guys. It's just the way it goes. And that movie to me seemed like an egregious example of one that had the goods and indeed was one of the very few movies that year to win an above-the-line Oscar and did get nominated for Best Picture, but was just dismissed kind of outright. Yeah, I think the people who cover this space best are aware of their own bias and can see and understand how films that maybe they don't relate to are still great films and will be widely loved.

30:53And it's still a struggle, I think, in the way awards films are covered. And we see it a lot. and yeah, that's a good one, David, because I do feel like that continues to go on. I will say I'm really done with the anonymous ballots. I wish we could just get rid of those. I think maybe we are since it's like against the rules now to participate in them, but maybe they will still be happening. Oh, they're still going to pop up and you know they will. I know. I feel like that's one thing I would be just fine with if ends forever. I can finally reveal I've been the one writing those this whole time.

31:29you're really good at creating different characters who all say the same horrible things I just channel a rich asshole Roberto Benigni famously has some really horrible ideas about the industry this guy just picked Pinocchio for everything I don't get it yeah it's kind of a mainstay at this point of what we have to deal with when we talk about the races these extreme opinions that no one will own that live on the internet and we should make the distinction that like there is some film discourse that can be contentious but is worth existing. You know, like something like the Amelia Perez stuff last year.

32:02I liked that movie, but I totally heard the arguments from people who didn't like it and for very principled and totally legitimate reasons, you know? And I thought that was a healthy discourse to be surrounding that movie. And then it got a little weirder, obviously. But no, I think that's one thing. And like a first man thing or a women talking has no shot kind of thing, that's different. Yeah, and it just happened with Nickel Boys too. But when it's a real in-good-faith debate about what the movie is saying and what it's putting forward, that's a very different matter than whatever tends to pop up from year to year.

32:33I would also really like to put to bed, and I think I see people who I thought I respected say this, like filmmakers and stuff. Every year they just nominate movies no one's seen. That sort of line of argument is really annoying to me because, well, now you will see it. Now you have heard of it because it was nominated. it, you know? Yes, what do you think the Oscars are for, if not to put forward great films that people may not be aware of? I also hate that. Our next question comes from Seth, who asks, which actor or actress who has never been nominated for an Oscar should have received a nomination already living only?

33:07So many. She doesn't do a lot of movies, but I think Mary Louise Parker is one of the best actors of her generation, and I would love to see her get nominated for something for sure. I had high hopes for Regina Hall in one battle after another, but I'm told that her part is actually pretty small, but she's great. Well, I will just do my very consistent issue that Daniel Deadweiler has missed out on nominations twice when she deserved them. And I, again, think it'll happen eventually for her because I think everything she does is great, even her episode of The Bear is my favorite episode because she just can do anything.

33:47So that's sort of my more recent issue. But I was surprised Ewan McGregor has never been nominated. I'm such a Moulin Rouge stan, and Nicole was nominated for that. And maybe it should have been then, but maybe there will be something else that gets him there. I was thinking about Joel Edgerton, somebody who's just been really great in a lot of movies. The movies aren't always great, but he, for example, was very close with Loving. He is tremendous in Train Dreams, and I just don't think that that's going to happen based on the way that category is shaping up. I would be happy to be wrong, but he just seems to always be standing out in projects that are not getting him across the finish line.

34:31So yeah, he's one I would put forward. I think it would be nice to see Brendan Fraser get a nomination at some point, you know? Well, he's in a movie this year, so... He does have a movie, yeah. That's true. That would be great. Don't give up a real comeback story. Real comeback story. And it's been a while, so. And we'll wrap this segment up with a question from James, who asks, I've always wanted to go to one of the big-name international film festivals, in particular Cannes, Sundance, and Telluride, but it seems so intimidating. I just assumed that getting a hotel in one of these cities during their festivals would be impossible.

35:04Same for tickets to screenings, tables at restaurants, etc. I know you guys aren't travel agents, so that when you do go to these festivals, you're going in a professional capacity, so it's different. but any advice you might have for folks who dream of attending one of these festivals would be greatly appreciated. My advice would be of the three that James named, I think it is expensive but Telluride is the most accessible in terms of getting things. I mean, I guess Sundance too could be. Well, it's about to change, you know. It is about to change. That's true. Maybe the Boulder thing will make it easier for people.

35:34Yeah, I think Sundance is easier than Telluride. You're right. Because the past is a sellout at Telluride in two minutes. But it's a different kind of movie at Sundance, you know. At Telluride, you know you're going to get at least like some of the big fall movies, whereas Sundance, it's a little bit more of a crapshoot. But I don't know my advice, and maybe it's not what James wants to hear, and work up toward going to those festivals. You'll have a great time. But like there are so many great regional festivals that get great movies. It's so much easier to get into things. A lot of them are in great little towns or cities like Savannah, for example, that have great restaurants.

36:07And, you know, it's not like this mad crush of people because the festivals just aren't, you know, as crazily attended as something like Cannes is. So yeah, I would recommend like Savannah is great. The Middleburg Film Festival in Virginia. Where else? Mill Valley. Mill Valley, absolutely. Palm Springs at the end of the year. Palm Springs, exactly. You know, there are just so many of those and more and more I feel like crop up each year. The Camden Film Festival in Camden, Maine, if you're interested in documentaries, apparently is really gaining steam in recent years. like a lot of big people in the dock space go to that festival.

36:41Camden, Maine is apparently a great town. It's like the summer home of NPR. Wait, wait, don't tell me, I'm told. So yeah, I would look into those and see if you like the festival experience. I think it can be overwhelming for some people and it's kind of frustrating to like make a schedule and all that. So yeah, start there. And then if you have a great time, then start thinking about, the one I would say don't bother trying to go to as a just kind of civilian, so to speak, is Cannes. I think it's very, very hard to get into anything there. It's probably almost impossible. How does Venice compare?

37:12Oh, good question. I don't know, actually, in terms of how much the public goes. I know that they have like younger people can get tickets to things, I believe. But getting around is a pain with the boats and everything. Unless you're staying on the Lido, which is really expensive, that would be a challenge too. I don't want to deter James or anyone from, you know, aiming for those big European festivals. But things are run a little bit or a lot less excessively there, from my experience. Yeah, I feel like with Cannes, you need to pass to even get into a hotel lobby. Like it's really, really tough there.

37:47And I think that makes it hard. James did not mention Toronto, but I would say Toronto, I would highly recommend. It's, you know, in a city that there are plenty of restaurants, there's places to stay. And the ticketing is a little more friendly to audiences and all the good movies go there. So I think that's one worth considering. I totally agree. I think Toronto is the one, if you have done some of those regionals, the one to level up to. I will just say about Telluride, because I do always meet people not in the industry who are just going because they want to go there. It seems to be a special experience for that crowd.

38:26It's just the kind of experience where you have to buy the pass within five minutes of it going live. And even then, you might not get it. You have to book accommodations that will be extremely expensive around that time as well, very, very early. And then you have to be prepared to wait in line at the actual festival because priority pass holders and things like that that you won't be able to get are prioritized. So it's very difficult, but it will give you that kind of exclusive special experience that I think cannot really be copied anywhere. and that would, in my opinion, rival Cannes and that is, you know, more publicly accessible.

39:06Yeah, and I would recommend the New York Film Festival. They have great programming. They actually this year have more like world premieres than they normally do. But you're in a big city. It doesn't have that same sort of like summer camp feel that other festivals in smaller places, even as, you know, Cannes is a big town, but it's smaller than New York City, you know, so. But yeah, if you're in the New York area, they do program really great things. Okay, well, let's leave it there for now. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we will end our episode with a special ceremony, the Little Gold Men Awards.

39:37Stay with us.

39:51Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. Here on Little Gold Men, we cover Emmys, Oscars, Tonys, all the most important awards in entertainment. But perhaps the most esteemed of all is the ceremony we're holding today. It's not quite as long as those award shows, the Little Gold Men Awards. Rebecca, why don't you tell us a little bit about the Little Gold Men Awards? Well, the Little Gold Men Awards are an extremely prestigious and exclusive event that does not have an award show and it just takes place over the airwaves. We have two participants in this show. I'll be reading the category, and then they will be revealing their choices.

40:31So we just have a few sort of fun categories I came up with. So we're going to start with the most earned Oscar win in history. All these titles say in history after them. And for my purposes, history is 1985 and all. I think that's how we're operating today. Yeah. Just after 1985, I think my most earned Oscar award goes to Cher for Moonstruck. A fantastic performance in a fantastic movie. She had been fantastic in other movies prior to that, is great in movies past that. It was an award for the Moonstruck performance. It's also an award to Cher for being Cher. And I can't argue with that at all.

41:09Good one. That is a good one. David, what you got? I think my most earned Oscar win would be Moonlight. the combination of how much money that movie was made for, what it was up against in a very good movie in La La Land, but a movie that had a lot more resources and a lot more going forward in terms of narrative and things like that. You know, this came from a director who had made a great film already, but was not even close to, you know, an Oscar contender until Moonlight came out. Mahershala Ali, winning Best Supporting Actor, an actor who really was nowhere close to that kind of recognition before that.

41:51It's a movie that got there purely on the basis of how good it was. And that doesn't always happen. And we all remember when it won. And of course, it had to win in the most insane fashion imaginable. But when the dust settled, I remember just feeling really comforted by it. And really, feeling really special that a movie like that could pull that off. and that the whole industry could rally behind it in the way that they did. Even when it did seem kind of impossible by that point, it certainly did. That's a good one. I know. That's, I think, one of my favorite Oscar memories forever, like being there for that because it was so crazy.

42:29Okay, second category. Most undeserving Oscar win. The mean one. The mean one. I mean, it's here where I go mask off and say that I really didn't like everything ever all along. I had to bite my tongue during the entire award season. No, I mean, I'm happy that Michelle Yeoh has an Oscar, and, you know, so I don't begrudge that movie. But I think, this is going to sound mean maybe, but I think Alicia Vikander for The Danish Girl, and that's only because she was so good in Ex Machina that same year and should have just won for that, and no one would be complaining. A movie in which was an actual supporting performance as well.

43:01Yeah, and The Danish Girl's a bad movie that shouldn't exist, and who remembers that performance or that movie other than that it was bad? And so, yeah, Vikander can still have an Oscar, just not for that movie. It should be for Ex Machina. So it's both mean and nice. Yeah, there you go. I was going to say Jamie Lee Curtis, and I all love to Jamie Lee Curtis, who I think has given many great performances over her career, and who is perfectly fine on everything, everywhere, all at once. But that just never made any sense to me at all. And I just, it still gnaws at me that it came down to her and Angela Bassett.

43:34And the narratives were similar, you know, career narratives, their moment coming. and it just went in a direction that made no sense to me. I think that's fair. You know, if Brendan Fraser had won for the whale, I would say that, but obviously that didn't happen, so I won't. Okay. Next up, we have best acceptance speech. Well, the one I watch a lot is not even an Oscar speech. It's a Golden Globe speech, and it's, of course, when Oprah won the Lifetime Achievement Award and gave that rallying Time's Up Me Too speech. But for Oscars, it's corny, and it's, I guess maybe I'm showing my age. I don't know.

44:13But Julia Roberts' acceptance speech is wonderful. Oh, that's lovely. And it's totally vainglorious and a crazy actor moment, but in the best way. And she's talking to the stick man, the conductor, and she's got that great dress on. And that movie's great and she's great in it. So I say Julia Roberts for Erin Brockovich. Favorite acceptance speech. Sally Field. Which one? You like me, you really like me. Of course. You know, owning the moment on the stage, no filter. that's what I like. Yeah, and also she's kind of misquoted in a way. Correct. She wasn't saying what people made fun of her for saying.

44:47The sentiment actually expressed in that speech is really nice. Exactly. It's a really lovely and very human moment, I think. And that's what the Oscar speech should be all about. Yeah, it's so rare to actually get there. All right, last category from me, and then we'll have one more mailbag question. an Oscar win that didn't happen that you think could have changed history? Well, I think Brokeback winning would have made some sort of impact, for sure. I think it's great that Ang Lee won for Best Director, but I don't think that moved the cultural needle in the way that a Best Picture win would have.

45:24I don't know 100 % if there would have been a huge flood of queer Hollywood movies, but it would be interesting to find out if that's the alternate timeline that would have resulted. Yeah, I think in this question's case, you want something that had a good shot. I don't know if this would have changed history, say, but in terms of the career trajectory of David Fincher, I do wonder what would have happened if The Social Network won Best Picture over the King's Speech, as I believe should have happened. And I think that that win had kicked off kind of a stretch of Oscar wins for Best Picture that were not especially exciting.

46:06You know, the artist, Argo was kind of exciting just because of Ben Affleck's snob and everything, but I don't think that movie was the most exciting of that year by any means. So, yeah, it just seemed like it kicked off kind of a dud of an Oscar era. And I think that the social network winning to start that decade off would have kind of created the opposite energy and hopefully led to the kinds of movies that David Fincher makes best. I don't know, David. Be careful what you wish for because if the King's Speech hadn't won Best Picture, we might not have cats because it gave Tom Hooper a real boost.

46:41And that actually would be a tragedy. I mean, I'm speaking seriously. That would be a tragedy, so. Yeah, so, you know, sorry, David, but we need cats. Who would have made cats if the King's Speech didn't win Best Picture? David Fincher. So we're going to wrap things up with one more mailbag question, which we all really loved, and it's from Julie. What's your favorite awards watching memory? For example, mine was staying on campus during spring break, ordering Thai, getting Ben and Jerry's, and watching Brokeback Mountain lose to Crash. Parentheses, okay, that last part wasn't a highlight. Agreed, Julie.

47:16So when I first moved to Los Angeles for grad school, I went to USC, and I entered into the lottery to get bleacher seats at the Oscar red carpet. I was going to journalism school. I'd never done any sort of professional writing, but I already loved the Oscars and I won the tickets. And so I dragged my husband there and we sat in the Oscar bleachers for hours. I don't even know how many hours because you have to get there super early to, you know, be there before the talent gets there. And this would have been the departed year. So I, you know, could see all these stars walking this carpet. that was just like the most glamorous experience in the world.

48:00And at the time, I couldn't even imagine that I would get to cover this as a job. So now every time I do have to walk this carpet and do all these interviews and all of that, I think about having been in the bleachers that first year and really just try to keep that love for the experience, even when, you know, for work, it can sometimes be exhausting. But it's just like a strong memory that sticks with me. Yeah, mine is, it goes back to college as well. I think I met my husband in college and the first Oscar season that we sort of followed together and I think he was very baffled by my level of investment and obsession over prognosticating and trying to figure things out.

48:48I was already very deep into this, but this was, I think, 2013. the year of 12 Years a Slave and American Hustle her, those films and so the memory of it is really kind of a culmination of a year of me kind of finally getting to share it with somebody because it had lived online for so long and he not to get too too happy but he made me the most insane and comprehensible Oscars board game based on all of those movies that were in contention. I don't remember how you could play it. I don't think you could play it. But it was the nicest gift I'd ever gotten because it was very thoughtful. And we played a version of it while the Oscars were happening.

49:36And yeah, I just remember watching it in the dining hall with him and one of our best friends. It's just a very special memory. It was the first time I really got to share with anybody outside my family and that it was accepted and not ridiculed felt nice. I don't remember if I've shared this story on the podcast before. It's been 10 years, so it's possible I have. But the year that Titanic won everything, I had seen every Best Picture nominee in the theaters with my parents. So I was very excited. And I normally was not allowed to stay up late because the Oscars were on Mondays back then. But I was 14 then, And so I think my mom was like, you know, he and his sister are old enough.

50:24And I came home from piano lessons. And on the dining room table, my mom had made all this food that was like themed to all the different Best Picture nominees. And it was so exciting. And she'd kind of repurposed. We had like a Playmobil boat from when we were kids that she had like put cardboard around to look like the Titanic and like the steam, you know, towers and all that stuff. It was really sweet. And then she informed us that we were, in fact, allowed to stay up until I think well past midnight that year. to watch Titanic win Best Picture. And I dare say, a lifelong Oscar fan was born.

50:56And if you had told little me then that all these many years later that I would have gotten the chance to talk about Oscars for work for this long and to go to some of these film festivals we mentioned and to go to the Vanity Fair Oscar party a couple times, I wouldn't have believed you. But I'm so glad that I got the chance. And I thank my mom for instilling me with that love of this ridiculous and wonderful thing. oh that's lovely Richard and so with that on a not at all emotional note as we discussed last week this is the last episode for me and Richard I've been on this podcast for four years Richard you've been on this podcast since it first started you've had an incredible run here I have been listening to this podcast as long as it has existed so it's an emotional moment Yeah.

51:47It is, yeah. I've had a wonderful time and podcasting was very scary when I started and now I think of it as like a major part of what I do and what I want to keep doing. And yeah, it's just been a blast and I was really happy when you guys came aboard and that everything worked out so well. But also, like, listeners are amazing and these questions were great. And anytime I'm at a festival and someone says, I recognize your voice. Are you from Little Gold Men? It just means the world to me. So thank you for anyone who's ever reached out in an email or in person or anywhere in between that. I'm really grateful for the time that you've spent listening to me hammer away and make dumb jokes.

52:26Same here on a much more reduced scale. And I also just have to thank you, Richard, and everyone else who welcomed me and Rebecca on when we came on and got to spend these really wonderful years together on this podcast. And I'm glad that the show will continue with Rebecca. So please keep listening and sending great questions and engaging and all that because we all love Rebecca and we know she's going to be great. Yeah, we are excited for the next era. And so with that, Rebecca, I'm passing the baton off to you. Thanks for tuning in to Little Gold Men. We're taking next week off, but please join us again on Tuesday, September 9th to hear our Little Gold Men live recording from TIFF with special guests Riz Ahmed and James McAvoy.

53:09If you'll be at TIFF and would like to see this live, we have limited tickets available, so please send us an email if you'd like to join us. If you have any questions about film festivals, upcoming premieres, or anything else at all, please send an email or voice note to littlegoldmen at vf.com. I'll also be at Telluride and TIFF, so please say hello if you're around. Little Gold Men is produced by Hiba El-Urbani with mixing by Bumi Hidaka. Conde Nast's head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. And this week's award for the best description of what it feels like to record an episode of Little Gold Men goes to Julia Roberts.

53:47I love it up here.