How to Hit a High Note with a Music Biopic

0:04Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, Fanny Fair's podcast for film, TV and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford. And I'm John Ross. Rebecca, it's been 24 hours since I've last seen you. We were together at the annual gala for the Academy Museum. How are you doing? I'm good. It was a fun, busy weekend, and I feel like I've been so busy just trying to catch those last remaining screenings. But before we dive into all that, I wanted to let listeners know that our mailbox is open. We'd love to do a mailbag episode in the coming weeks, and we'd love to answer any of your questions about the upcoming awards season, the movies, anything you want to ask us.

0:52Please send an email or a voice note to littlegoldmen at vf.com. Yeah, and as Rebecca knows, I'm in that mailbox. I'm reading your notes and I'm trying to respond when I can. But let's get to the meat at hand. So Saturday, we went to the annual Academy Museum Gala that is put on by Ampast, the organization that puts on the Oscars. It was very glamorous. It was like, I went home that night and was like, I cannot believe how glamorous that was because there's very few agents. There's very few publicists. There's no like hanger-ons. It's just like the famous people. And the only other time I really see that is our own Vanity Fair party.

1:39So, but I think this was incredibly like just so selective in a way that you don't see it a lot of Hollywood events anymore. Right. And it's also, as they tell you a hundred times upon your confirmation, off the record. Right. So we're going to be real careful here. Careful, careful. Anything you say will be used against you in a court of law. they have actually turned this into kind of a met ball-esque event especially on the fashion front because it's so close to the fall fashion shows so it's the first time a lot of people are wearing these new designers that's a whole thing I will say compared to other years the talent they had there were not actually all the people that are in the race this year.

2:35I mean, Leonardo DiCaprio, who never shows up to anything, but he does show up to the LACMA Gala. And he did show up, I think, the year of Killers of the Flower Moon. We didn't see Timothee Chalamet. We didn't see Gwyneth Paltrow. We didn't see Jessie Buckley. I was actually kind of surprised. Listen, she lives in London. So to schlep from London to this is a lot, but. A lot of people schlepped. Oh yeah, a lot of people schlepped. So I was a little interested in that. I think that was a little bit of a indicator of this might be a kind of strange awards campaigning season where might be a little bit more muted, a little less thirsty is maybe the only way to describe it.

3:21because I went to this event last year and it was like Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo were there ahead of the Wicked. Cynthia sang. Oh yeah, neither of them were there this year. Neither of them. Ari is filming her movie. Paul Mesko's filming his movie, The Beatles, which maybe we'll be filming forever. But it was interesting because, yes, there was a ton of stars, a lot of music people, stars everywhere. but it didn't totally align with the race. Which, you know, technically this is a fundraising gala, not officially a race stop, but it is a race stop. It's a room full of voters. But there were a lot of them.

4:07And there were a lot of people who have nothing to do with this race the year. There were a lot of pop stars. There were a lot of directors and just like friends of the Academy, that kind of thing too. So it was an interesting mix. Yeah. And really briefly, other news of the week. Don't worry, everyone. We're not going to become a box office podcast. However, I am beginning to see a trend this year in what's going on with these smaller specialty films in the box office. And what's going on is it's not good. after The Hunt made$1.5 million this week after expanding to 1 ,500 theaters. That means basically they expanded to all the major cities, but not like fully nationwide.

4:55That is a really, really low number and is a little alarming. I saw ads for it everywhere. Obviously, they did all of these premieres. They did a lot of press. to land at that number is uh-oh. Yeah, I just think the word of mouth was really bad for it. You know, the reviews were so mixed up for the people like us I've heard on other podcasts talking about how cold the reception was at early screening. So that stuff, I think, really got around to the sorts of people who would go out of their way to see this kind of movie in those theaters. And so it was a real struggle. And, you know, Julia Roberts is incredible, that movie.

5:42I thought maybe there'd be some people who just want to see Julia Roberts, like really kill it in a film. But I think it just was too polarizing, you know, for everyone who would have maybe been interested in seeing it in the first place, unfortunately. Yeah, I'm going to be a little harder on that and say there's something going on in the MGM distribution model model because they are just unable to get these movies seen. There are other movies that they have, like they had that big Christmas movie last year with The Rock and Chris Evans. They did get people to the theaters for that, but these types of movies, they're really struggling and I don't know what's going on there.

6:25But we're here to talk about some other films that are coming out later this week. We did get to see Bruce Springsteen at the gala. Yes, he was honored. And he performed. That's a big deal. Yes, that's a real big deal. Yeah, biggie, biggie, biggie. This is all tied to his film, Deliver Me From Nowhere, which is hitting theaters tomorrow. So today we thought we would talk a little bit about what we thought about the film and its awards chances. And then later on, we have music journalist Alan Light joining us. He's going to discuss the business of musical biopics and what it takes to make one and the power they have to get audiences into theaters.

7:10And then we're going to check in on the best director race. So let's get into it.

7:22Deliver Me From Nowhere stars Jeremy Allen White as the boss himself. And then it stars Jeremy Strong, the other Jeremy, as his longtime manager. And it's directed by Scott Cooper. And it's not a big old biopic about his whole life. It's very specifically tied to the making of Nebraska. His album that was really different than a lot of the other stuff he was making or expected to make. And sort of the process of him going through that, along with his sort of state of mind at that time in his career. or when he had just really hit success, but was sort of, as many artists do, sort of grappling with that newfound success.

8:01I got to see it at Telluride. A long time ago, I got to moderate a panel there with Bruce Springsteen, and it was a pretty incredible experience to see it with an audience like that. And it had a really strong reception there. There are a lot of diehard fans of Bruce that seemed very happy with this movie. John, what was sort of your experience? Okay, so I saw it at a screening here that was a lot of dads. And this is a dad movie. And that's important because there actually aren't a lot of them. And I think that the dads and the Bruce Springsteen lovers really responded to it at my screening. I personally, similar to last year watching Complete Unknown, And I don't know that much about Bruce.

8:54And I didn't know that much about Bob. Sorry, don't kill me. It's just, that's not my thing. And so, you know, I was watching this movie and a lot of it was like news to me. He does sing Born in the USA. Spoiler. So, you know, fans of Bruce, you're going to get that moment. Jeremy Allen White wears contacts. So his eyes aren't blue. Yes. It's distracting at first. Yeah. It was just shocking because, you know, I'm so used to his big blue eyes. Right. He is really strong in this film. Yeah. I also think in these past couple of weeks, as we're seeing the best actor race form, he's kind of going to do a pretty traditional campaign.

9:42And I think that's going to benefit him. because he's doing all the things that you need to do in a role that is the type of role that gets you an Academy Award nomination. It's interesting because he's never starred in a movie before. He, you know, is the star of The Bear, which is this hugely successful TV show, but he's jumping into film in a big starring role, and he does carry the film. Yeah. I think he's really great. I think Jeremy Strong is very good too. I talked to them together in Telluride and they're both very talented and I think deliver very intricate character performances here.

10:28So I think supporting actor is a little more unformed. So I think they both have a real chance in performance. I'm curious how this film does in the picture race. I think it's hard to know, you know, because it can be a crowd pleaser. It has strong crafts. There's a lot going for it. I feel like I can't trust my gut on music movies, too, because they often do a lot better than I expect them to do. And the feedback I'm getting is that most people like this movie. Maybe not love, but like it a lot. So I think we'll have to kind of wait and see there. Did you think Jeremy Strong's role was big enough for supporting actor?

11:07I thought it was a little too small. It's not as showy because he's literally like the steadfast hand to this musician. So he doesn't get to have an explosive moment. And he has one scene that's just like purely there for exposition that everyone I talk to about this movie is like, why is that scene in this movie? But because I got to meet the person he's playing, like you can tell how much work he did to become that character. Like he told me he left a voicemail as the character to the real man. Just the kind of stuff you would expect Jeremy Strong to do, which I think there's a lot of actorly work going on in there with him.

11:45As we know, that's his style. And I wonder if the other actors will want to support that, even if, as you're right, it's not as showy as a lot of supporting actor performances we're probably going to be talking about. In terms of best picture, I think that if this film is wildly successful or even successful, that's going to help propel it into the top 10. And also, I think our blind spot is musical biopics combined with just how big is this Bruce Springsteen fan base? I mean, Bruce Springsteen sells out arenas still. Yeah. So we might see the power of Bruce that maybe we're not seeing in our little awardsy circles that we're living in.

12:36We might see the power of Bruce in the nation overall, and that could help tip this over and be one of those movies that people see in theaters. And I think, speaking of seeing it, the fact that Bruce is going to be participating in Q &As, going to screenings, going to events, that means people are going to come out to see this movie. Maybe they go out just because they want to see Bruce do the Q &A after, but they will have seen the movie. And that is like the first step to getting the attention you need for nominations. So having Bruce be this supportive and participate this much is beyond important, I think, for this movie.

13:16Yeah. So I guess what we can agree on is that Bruce Springsteen is a star. Yeah. Breaking news. Breaking news. We've come to the conclusion that Bruce Springsteen's a pretty big music star. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Deliver Me From No More isn't the only music biopic on the horizon. We've got The Beatles one, as John mentioned, and quite a few others coming down the pipe. So after the break, we're going to welcome music journalist Alan Light to join us to discuss why there's been such an influx of these films lately. Stay with us.

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14:43Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. We're here with Alan Light, music journalist and author of the upcoming book, Don't Stop, Why We Still Love Fleetwood Mac's Rumors. Thanks for joining us, Alan. Thanks for having me on. Happy to do it. So, Alan, you've written a lot about musical biopics over the years, And we're going to get into the deeper analysis of why there are so many of them right now and the complicated nature of how they get made. But before we get into that, let's just have a little fun and let's each of us talk about our favorite music biopic. I'll go first. I have two and I'm cheating a little on one.

15:29Funny Girl, which is kind of a music biopic in that it is about Fanny Bryce, but it's also a musical first. They used a little bit of her actual music, but then they also wrote, you know, songs for the Broadway show. And then also, I love What's Love Got To Do With It, the Tina Turner biopic. So, Alan, what's yours? Coal Miner's Daughter. Oh, nice. Yeah, I mean, an incredible performance from Sissy Spacek, obviously, and from Levon Helm from the band as Loretta Lynn's father in that film. And it's a reminder that there's history and it's not a new phenomenon to look to these musical artists' life, which are dramatic and which, you know, have all of this stuff to draw from.

16:20That's not a thing that's been invented, you know, the last few years with Bohemian Rhapsody. And a movie like Coal Miner's Daughter, I think, was, you know, demonstrative of the strength of what you could do with these stories. It wasn't cliched. It wasn't, you know, a formula that we were burnt out on yet at that time. So I'll go with that for breaking some ground. That's a good one. Rebecca? I was on a weekend away with a bunch of my daughter's preschool friends, families, and we had a long, like, three-day debate about what biopics were actually good. And so this wasn't my idea originally, but one of my friends brought up Amadeus, which I feel like is the best.

17:01And I totally agree, so I have to give them credit. But I think, you know, that's what you want for one of these movies is that sort of originality and energy of a film like that. which was a big Oscar contender at the time. For sure. I mean, this was a big movie, which I guess they're talking about remaking, I fear, which is absurd. Oh, no, please no. Don't do it. It's not a remake. It's like a retelling. Yeah, so Alan, can you tell us, you wrote an article for Vanity Fair in April 2024 about these music biopics and why there's been sort of this surge of them, but when did you first start to notice that that was happening?

17:37Well, I think there were really a couple of different things that were coming together at that time. I mean, one is the unbelievable success of Bohemian Rhapsody, which was the biggest biopic, not just music, but any biopic. I guess Oppenheimer now technically has surpassed that, but it was the biggest to its time. I think that was really a wake-up call or something that said that these can really extend beyond just being music fan pieces into a bigger sort of audience than all that. And then on the heels of that, There was the Bob Marley film, One Love. There was the Baz Luhrmann Elvis film. Like, there were a few big swings that did really well.

18:18And then the final piece of that is that it was coinciding with all of these, and it really is almost all of these legendary, you know, rock and roll greatest generation artists doing these massive deals to sell their publishing and sell their catalogs to these different investment funds or different publishing companies who are looking for ways to extend and exploit the assets of these songs. And one natural way to do that, one obvious thing if it hasn't been done, is if you can go make a feature film working with that material, that's a way to make money on that project, to draw attention to that artist, pump up their streaming numbers and extend the listenership for their work.

19:01It can be a huge win for these companies that have spent$300,$400,$500 million. dollars. So the timing of a few of those things, you know, not coincidentally coming together, I think really led to this explosion of a whole bunch of films, whether it's the Michael Jackson film, now we're seeing the Springsteen film, A Complete Unknown last year, ones that didn't do as well, the Amy Winehouse film, a Whitney Houston biopic, the, you know, four-part Beatles cinematic universe project that's coming a few years down the line. This has just become this big category unto itself. Bohemian Rhapsody, I think, was a pretty big surprise because, yes, Queen is a hugely successful brand.

19:43I mean, obviously. And yes, we know so many of their songs, but this movie seemed to go beyond their fan base. I would say similarly, Elvis did. I mean, Elvis, you know, is obviously one of the biggest music stars of all time, But the Baz Luhrmann version was a very young, modern take on that tale. And Austin Butler evidently brought a lot of young people into the theaters. What do we think it is that's going on right now where they're trying to marry these sort of older, legendary artists with a different take to get a wider audience into the theaters? Yeah, I mean, I think there was a different question around each of those two projects, right?

20:32I mean, I was stunned that Bohemian Rhapsody turned into it. I mean, I saw a screening and thought, like, this is okay. We all, I think, had that experience. It had no sense of, like, oh, this is going to be this massive hit, and, you know, Rami's going to win the Oscar for it and all of that. I just didn't see any of that coming. But in retrospect, you know, as you say, Queen remained this hugely popular band. these are these big sing-along songs. I think it sort of turned into a participatory event for people to go to and took on this other momentum. Elvis went in as a very open question of, we know what the issue is here.

21:11Like, is Elvis still a resonant figure? And are they going to be able to pull off something that's going to bring attention and interest around this figure that, you know, everybody's heard of, but not everybody has really thought about for quite some time. as you guys know as well as anybody then it's what's the magic of making the movie and the treatment and the way in that's going to connect with people and resonate and we've seen the ones you know some of these that have worked really well and some that have not um and that you know the biopic formula at a certain point did get kind of stale and predictable and formulaic enough that it was being parodied that there was the john c reilly dewey cox movie that was the spoof of music biopics because even at that point it had become, you know, like behind the music, we knew what the arc was.

22:01We know it's, you know, here's the low point, here's the salvation, here's how it ends on the, you know, you could, you could plot it out on a graph, what that story is going to be. So the idea of coming at it from some other way, whether that's, you know, visually or narrative or, or, you know, texturally, um, those were examples that, that did that and did that effectively and worked Rocketman as well. That was, I think, the first one on the heels of Bohemian Rhapsody. And that was, as we know, sort of unconventional musical treatment. It was not presented as the sort of linear chronological story of Elton John.

22:36It was much more the atmosphere and the spirit of Elton John, which I liked quite a lot. And I thought it was true to his character and sort of that extravagance and conveyed that and worked really well as a way to get at that story. And these movies, there are a lot of them, but they're actually not that easy to make because they require behind the scenes two sort of sets of complicated factors. One, you have to get the rights to the songs. and then two, you basically have to get the life rights. And whether that's the artist's family or if the artist is currently still alive, those two things you would think are actually tied together, but they're not always.

23:31Can you talk about the difficulties in doing that? And then I think we can talk about some upcoming films that have hit a bump in the road in getting this done. I think that's more or less right as you lay it out. And it really is, you know, almost all of the legendary artists, the people with these big, huge catalogs, and the kind of people that you would look at to make a movie out of. There was a huge explosion in investment in buying publishing rights and buying songs as investments and as assets. It drove the price way up. People were getting multiples that they never dreamed and thought, well, this is as good as it's ever going to get.

24:16So, you know, pretty much everybody, whether that's Dylan Springsteen, Neil Young, whether that's more recently Queen, sold their catalog for around$1.2 billion with a B dollars. Unbelievable. And that's with Bohemian Rhapsody already made. But these are, you know, big, huge deals. Some of them involve name-image likeness. Most of them do not. And so, as you say, most of that control over the image and the person and the character lies with the estate, which is usually the family, and which is usually the most protective of that image. And when you're talking about individuals that are, as many rock stars are, complicated, controversial, you know, surrounded by some sort of scandal or something that makes them beyond just a everybody's happy and everything's great kind of story.

25:11How do you navigate putting together a biopic, a fictionalized to some degree retelling of that story that it feels true enough to satisfy people who want to feel like they're seeing the real story, but not overplaying the sensitive parts that the families want to shy away from. And, you know, we've seen some of these that have come out that haven't really worked. The Whitney Houston biopic, I think, really didn't pull that off. And there was a feeling that they were not honest enough about some of the more complicated things about Whitney's story that fans were kind of like, you know, I don't need it.

25:48That's not telling me anything. And we know what's not in there. I think that came out too soon. They did address her drug use. Yes, you're right. It was not the full story. I mean, you know, I don't believe the movie includes any like being Bobby Brown in it, which was a pretty significant part in her career that was marked basically the beginning of the end. but there is also something about the timing of when you do these movies and back to black for example the amy weinhaus so i mean that movie doesn't work from front to back but it is also like a little too soon for us to get some perspective but then we have you know uh the springsteen film coming out with springsteen still active and touring and making new music This is about a period from 40 years ago, granted, but it is competing in your head with, I just went to a Bruce Springsteen show.

26:51I have a sense of what it's like to see him on stage, even right now. You know, there's a reality that there's a challenge that's different than if you're telling, you know, again, a story from somebody who's been gone for decades, and there's a little bit of a cleaner slate to be able to define that character. That's what I always find challenging about these is when the subject is involved. Like we saw Elton promoting Rocketman. We see Bruce is out there promoting this film. I think Dylan did a one tweet, but had not actually seen the movie. So, which is very Dylan of him. So there are varying levels of involvement of the subject.

27:32And I always get a little nervous because, as you're saying, it's a balance to tell a story that feels true and authentic. But when the subject's involved and maybe there are things they want shown a different way or they feel like, you know, their experience was different than what's been captured in the film, it can get really tricky. Yeah, it's really tough. The ones that get it right are a tribute, I think, to both sides, to the subject or the representatives of the subject knowing when to back off a little bit and at least give it a feeling that's more genuine. And the filmmakers having a sense of where to push and which things are imperative and which things are not.

28:10The other thing to mention here is there have been the films that have been biopic treatments without the approval of the estates, where they didn't get access to the music and found workarounds, which have resulted in, I think, some movies that are kind of interesting, but not very successful. There was the Jimi Hendrix film with Andre 3000. Oh, right. Yeah. About his early years in London that I actually think was a pretty interesting movie, but nobody wants to go see a Jimi Hendrix movie that doesn't have Purple Haze in it. And so it's not going to happen. So these are all trade-offs. Well, there's one film that was supposed to come out this year that I think is a great example of the trade-off that did not happen or the trade-off that is currently still being negotiated, which is the Michael Jackson film directed by Antoine Fuqua, was supposed to come out this fall then hit a pretty big snafu in the final edit where the estate is making them reshoot the ending of the film um alan do you have any like additional insight as to what's going on there and how how they got this far you can get to the point where you're shooting yeah not a big surprised that a Michael Jackson project is complicated and messy.