Leonardo DiCaprio's Battle for Another Oscar

0:04Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford. And I'm John Ross. Hi, John. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm here. I've survived a weekend of many, many photo shoots for upcoming Hollywood issue, which is going to be spectacular. And the theme for me and this Hollywood issue is the theme for this podcast as well, which is one battle after another. I'm really excited we're going to get to use this phrase in so many ways for the next several months of awards season because it really works for our lives right now in so many ways. Yes, we are one battle after another, but we both got to see the movie and we're going to do a deep dive on it today for the podcast.

0:58Yeah, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson's film, I think we weren't, before we had seen it, sure if this was going to be a real awards contender because it didn't premiere at a festival, though we know Paul Thomas Anderson infamously hates them. But now that we've seen it and it opens nationwide tomorrow, I think there's a lot to discuss about it being a huge awards contender and especially for its star, Leonardo DiCaprio. But given his sort of complicated history with the Oscars and how incredibly competitive it's going to be, is it enough to get him a nomination? Yeah, so today we are going to be talking about one battle, but we're really talking about all things Leo and his relationship to the Oscars.

1:42Leo DiCaprio is considered by many to be one of the last remaining true movie stars in this industry. but he has a complicated relationship with the Oscars, which I think mirrors a lot of young actors of this current generation, specifically one young actor that we'll be talking about at the end of this podcast. And despite having such an incredible career, he's actually only won an Oscar once, and that was for The Revenant. And we'll talk about that campaign and coronation and how it's affected Leo's relationship with promoting films since. Yes, we can never get enough of Leo. So we'll be discussing all that and more with today's guest, Vanity Fair Culture and Society reporter, Case Wickman.

2:26Case, thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. So I think we should dive in by talking specifically about the film, which we've all seen. Just to recap the plot for those who are going to head to theaters this weekend. And it follows Leonardo DiCaprio's character, who's named Bob Ferguson. He's a former revolutionary who's living this sort of quiet family life with his daughter, but then that all comes under threat when a military leader from his past, played by Sean Penn, comes searching for him and his daughter, who's played by this new breakout named Chase Infinity. The film also stars Tiana Taylor, Regina Hall, and Benicio Del Toro.

3:07It's got quite the cast. So I think maybe we'll just jump in and talk about what everybody thought about it. I think that this film is a ton of fun. I think it's interesting that it touches on timely themes. But Paul Thomas Anderson does a very canny job of not getting too into the weeds about current events. It's more like commenting on larger themes about current events. Wouldn't you agree, Rebecca? Yeah. Like, we're just sort of getting into the concept of being a radical or living off the grid. And also Sean Penn's character is very deeply politically relevant to what's going on right now.

3:59But really, the through line is it's a fun action story. and I think it really works all around. Is it too long? Yes. But then when I think about like, oh, what could be cut? It's hard because every scene I think sort of works. And so it's hard to really think like, oh, what could he have cut from this movie? Because scene to scene, you're really, really enjoying it in my opinion. Yeah, I agree. although I don't think it felt too long actually. I infamously think that everything could have 30 minutes cut from it. I'm like everything should be shorter. This 20 minute TV episode, lose 30 minutes.

4:49But it's funny because I went into this movie actually pretty blind. And before I was talking with my seat neighbor at the screening and I was talking about parent stuff and things that you don't expect to be doing as a parent and gross baby stuff and whatever. And right before it started, I said, well, but Leo is never going to have to deal with this. And I was actually surprised that a huge through line, one of those things that is one battle after another is parenting. This is not only prescient commentary on othering and our current political climate and what it is to be a revolutionary, what it is to be a radical on either side, but also what it is to be a parent and to try and make a better world for your kids and also protect them from how the world is and how it might be.

5:40And so that really surprised me. And I did not expect to be fully cackling during some parts. I hid my eyes. I laughed. I cried. Edge of my seat. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. And I came out and I was like, that didn't feel like almost three hours to me. I'm also very anti-long movies. And I actually got to see this a while ago and have sort of been sitting quietly on it because I was so excited that I loved it so much but didn't want to affect other people's expectations for it. But now it seems to be the consensus. But I think it moves so much because he really brings you from sort of one part of this world to the next and the next.

6:25It never feels still. It has such an energy to it that he's created. And I think a lot of that is the character work Leo is doing because he's really at his most befuddled. We'll talk about the middle 40 with Leo, which I think is spectacular. Remarkable stuff. Yeah, unbelievable, yeah. And he allows you to meet new characters and become attached to them, but then he's not afraid to take them away. And I think it's such a wonderful theatrical experience that I really hope people go to theaters and see it. Yeah, I was glad that I saw it in a theater. Great big IMAX. It just needs to be a little bit bigger instead of on my couch, which is how I see a lot of movies.

7:13The big thing that is going to happen this weekend is there's going to be a lot of news reporting about the budget of this film and how the film opens in its opening weekend. It is wild to see the discrepancies in what people are saying how much this film costs. It's somewhere between$130 and$175 million, which is$45 million in difference. Time change. Yeah, time change. Nothing. Yeah. But it's expensive. It's his most expensive movie. You see the money on the screen, in my opinion. There are several action sequences that are beautifully filmed, that are beautifully edited. But it also means that the film has to perform at a pretty high level at the box office.

8:05I'm not sure it's going to get there on its opening weekend. I think that this film is going to have legs and people are going to watch it throughout the month. as long as they can keep this film in theaters, I think people will be like, you know what, I'm going to go see weekend three of this movie. Oh, let's go see the P.T. Anderson-Leo movie. I think it has that element to it. Warners has been very good about that. I mean, Sinners is a movie that opened big, but really started to make its money on weekend two, three, and four. So I hope that they can do the same for this because I think we're not going to have the full story on this movie's box office success until a month in.

8:52Well, and I think that this being a PTA movie and some of the people who his movies tend to attract are like big format heads, right? They'll pay to see it in 70 millimeter. They'll go to the boutique theaters. They'll maybe pay a premium there for the format that they want to see it in or see it more than one time. So I think that it's got legs and I think that it's got range. She's got range. Yeah. Yeah, I think word of mouth is going to be really powerful in this one because the people who see it this coming weekend will then tell all their friends and I'm finding myself already doing that where I'm saying oh, you should see the PTA this weekend and I think that's going to really help the film.

9:36So obviously it's an impossible narrative with that budget to say it's going to be a win on that front, but I think in the end when people look back on it as you're saying, John, it'll be a victory because I do think it's going to get a lot of support in theater because it's a great film and we have to support great films for what are we doing here. I know. So I have faith in it. So let's talk a little bit about its awards chances across the board. First off, Best Picture. I mean, it's getting a Best Picture nomination. Yeah. I think we all agree. I actually think that this is Warner's strongest film in the race.

10:15And I think that this film has a way to go all the way. And I could see this walking away with the big trophy at the end of the night just because, like we keep saying, the audience reaction. So I went to a SAG nominating screening, and just so for people at home, the SAG awards are voted in a sort of strange way, where the nominations are done by two nominating committees. 2 ,500 people vote for the films. 2 ,500 people vote for television. And then once the nominations come out, the entire SAG members are allowed to vote for the winners. This SAG nominating committee, I mean, the energy was palpable how much they loved it.

11:03Granted, Leo was coming for a Q &A afterwards, which helps, and we'll talk about that later. the power of Leo in a room is remarkable. But then the next day, I go to another screening. Afterwards, we're all downstairs in the garage. It's a bunch of us award storks, as I like to say. And you know what? The first thing out of everyone's mouth is, you know what I loved? I loved one battle after another. And I keep now hearing it. and that type of thing is what gets you to the final, final end and the final win. So I'm feeling like this film has a real shot at best picture at the end of the day. Yeah, I think you're right.

11:52I think the one challenge they may have when it becomes really campaigning season is that we know PTA is not going to do much and we know Leo is not going to do much. So it is, and Sean Penn probably won't do very much. So it's going to be leaning on the supporting cast, Tiana Taylor. We don't know how much she'll do since she's sort of newer on the scene in the movie business, and Regina Hall and Benicio and Chase Infinity. So they all do really phenomenal performances and I think should be, you know, trying for supporting as well. But I think the thing that you will see with probably with Sinners and things like that is they'll be moving through campaigning as a pact and be in those rooms all together.

12:34So I think it'll have to be a different strategy for this film, but they have, with Leo, the biggest movie star in the world, so he doesn't have to do that much. But I agree, I think it's a real best picture lock. I'm seeing a lot of people in social media who are just like, this is the best American film in a long time, and that's its own narrative. So yeah, I mean, it definitely feels a lock there. Case, are there any other supporting performances you felt like really stood out? I mean, Sean Penn absolutely the new news. Yeah. In this role. I mean, honestly, all throughout the film, it's a chaos of supporting characters, right?

13:14You never know when you're going to see someone again or if you're going to see them again. And it's great. It adds to the whole vibe of like, wait, who is this? What did they do? Is that actually their name? Are they? I mean, there's a Heim. sister in it. Okay. Why not? So lots of really great performances in this. But yeah, Leo, obviously, as the centerpiece, as he should be. And Leo has a middle, just so everyone knows, there's a middle 40 minutes that's very Leo focused. And it's Leo on the run. And it is so funny. And you forget sometimes when he is funny, he is so, so funny as this guy that's been out of the game for however many years, 16 years, and he's got to put his revolutionary hat back on and figure out how to find his daughter.

14:14And he is hysterical while also being totally believable. and it is like we take Leo for granted sometimes at just how good he is at being the star of a movie. I mean, he just carries that middle 45 minutes. That's when I had the hardest laughs. There's a sequence where he can't remember a password. I don't want to give anything away. I deeply related to it. I think we all relate to it in the age of Microsoft Teams and Okja and all this stuff when they're asking you to reset your password and this and that. I felt like he was me sitting there being like, I don't know my password. I don't know it.

14:55That was the greatest. Yeah, you're just rooting for him so hard. He gets you on his side so hard. And this, I walked out and I was like, I mean, it sounds so obvious, but you're like, that Leo, he's real good. He's good at this. He's going somewhere that good. He's just really good at this. I think he may have a future. I don't know. I think so too. You know, I also walked out of the screening thinking about how incredible the script was. So I expected to be a real contender in screenplay. PTA has been nominated five times already for screenplay. He has yet to win an Oscar. So we all probably need to talk about how it's time for him to win specifically for himself.

15:37So I think screenplay and directing are both extremely competitive this year, but definitely ones to watch where I think this will really play. Yeah. The big question we're left with is, is this performance from Leo enough to get him another Best Actor nomination or even a win? After the break, we're answering this question by getting into his relationship with the Oscars and where it lands him today. Stay with us.

16:06Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, the Global Fashion News and Features Director and co-host of Vogue's podcast, The Run Through. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all-access pass to the world of Vogue with the latest fashion news and the most exciting voices in the industry. on Tuesdays join me to hear interviews with influential leaders in the industry like Calvin Klein Daniel Roseberry and Jonathan Anderson on Thursdays join head of editorial content at Vogue Chloe Mal and head of editorial content at British Vogue Chomanati as they explore style and culture through the lens of fashion with guests like Martha Stewart Kamala Harris and Tracy Ellis Ross the run through with Vogue new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts

17:01Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. One battle after another is a great way to describe Leo's history with the Oscars. I think we all agree that his performance in this is amazing and worth a nomination. But given the long journey to his first Best Actor win in 2016 for The Revenant, will the Academy be voting for him? I think it's worth taking a look at Leo's history with the Oscars before we even answer that question. Starting with his first nomination for Best Supporting Actor in What's Eating Gilbert Great, he was only 20 years old. He was, you know, super young. Again, reminds me of another young actor we're going to talk about at the end.

17:43He gets nominated for that. And then he goes through a period of time where they snub him. Most notably, they snub him for Titanic, which is the biggest movie of all time, pretty much, and is the movie that made him the biggest star in the world and probably still the biggest star in the world. That snub, as a teenager, I remember that being, like, national news, you know? Like, when Leo didn't get nominated for Titanic, like, everyone in my high school, it's like we held a vigil. It was devastating. But he drew her like one of his French girls. How could they? We were like, what are the Academy Awards?

18:29Who are these people? And what have they done? And so he then continues to get some snubs. And then he starts getting nominated in 2005 for The Aviator, then Blood Diamond, then Wolf of Wall Street, where he comes kind of close, I think, to potentially winning, but ultimately loses to Matthew McConaughey for Dallas Buyers Club. Matthew had a longer runway for a campaign and really established himself that year. He had a lot going on. And then in 2016, he gets his win for The Revenant. And surrounding that, there's a lot of talk about Leo and wanting this Oscar and it's his due and like he's campaigning for it.

19:20Do we want to sort of talk about what the sort of chatter was around Hollywood during that time? I remember this year so specifically. I feel like I was already covering awards for a while, but I just thought the narrative was so loud at the time about he's finally doing it. He's finally doing all the campaign stops that are required. And, you know, Leo has a chance now. And I mean, there was, there was a whole narrative like sleeping in a bear carcass. Yes, sleeping in a bear. I mean, we all remember that moment. Like there were these sort of grand stories about how much Leo really wanted it all of a sudden.

19:58But I don't know how much of that was just sort of like award season lore when I look back on it. Like, did he really do more than the average campaigner? No, Rebecca, he did less. So that's what's so interesting. And there's an old story from a woman who is very centrally involved for a period of time in awards campaign, Peggy Siegel, who did a little Goldman interview in which she talked about meeting Leo in St. Barth's over Christmas, which is very Peggy Siegel, if you knew anything about her. And he asked her, how am I going to win an Oscar? And she's told him, you're going to have to do a lot.

20:33And then the next year she saw in the year of the Revenant, and she said, this is your year, you're going to win, but you got to work it, you got to work it, you got to work it. we get so little about Leo behind the scenes this story got a lot of pickup it helped form a narrative after he won of like oh you know Leo really wanted it he really worked it but in reality he didn't really do the whole what I like to call chicken circuit like what he did which was different from before is he did a lot more screenings he did q a's after the film was released so there's a whole pr mechanism in this world where you do pre-release press which is helping open your movie and then after your movie opens a lot of movie stars are like well i don't really do press after it opens because the whole point is to just open the movie leo for the revenant did do post-release press but it was nothing compared to like what we've seen other actors do to score a win.

21:47And yet that little bit that he did birthed this whole narrative of like, you know, thirsty Leo, desperate for Oscar this year, climbing into bear. And it's not really fair, in my opinion, because that really wasn't what he did. but because also at the same time he's so private and quiet and does so few interviews he never really addressed it he sort of just let people talk about it that way and I think that that's also a little bit a part of him as an actor which is he's very press shy and reluctant to engage with press so narratives can be built around him that he doesn't engage with Well, what's he going to do?

22:38Be like, actually, I didn't want it that bad. I don't feel like, you know. True, true. It's kind of a lose-lose if he addresses it either way. But, you know, like, wanting things and admitting that you want things is seen as so thirsty. Yeah. And so, again, there's just no way to come out on top of this, right? Like, we have seen people who, in recent years, have openly tried to make nominations happen, tried to make wins happen. Sometimes it works, as you know. Right. But I think that this has a nice chance for him because people are going to see it. It's not super niche, but it is an prestige movie.

23:23You're not going to have a tough time getting voters to watch this movie, you know? Yeah. And he's so good in it. And also, I think there's not a hint of smarm in this. He totally humanizes himself. Like, catch me if you can. He's a smooth guy. Aviator, smooth guy. I think that as much as it should be about the performance and not the person, I do think that it makes a difference that it's not Leo being like, cool Mr. Guy. I think that's the scientific term, cool Mr. Guy. Yes, that's a clinical, what the doctors prescribe. Yeah, I just had to check with science real quick for that. But I do think that him humanizing himself and crawling through tunnels and he's got his dirty robe and his dirty hair and he's like, look, I'm just doing the best I can.

24:18I do think that that works in his favor here. I also think, as you were mentioning, Case, The fact that this character is a dad, it brings the softness to the character that I didn't associate with the kinds of characters Leo has played that I think will really work for him in a similar way. Because, you know, a lot of people will relate to that. And it's sort of a thing I haven't seen him explore, obviously. He's in his dad era. He's in his dad era without having to have become a dad. But he is really good with Chase. Chase plays his daughter in the movie. She's fantastic in it. it's a real breakout performance and Rebecca, shout out to you for profiling her for Vanities and picking her out early on because I think this is like a real star making turn for this young actress she has a tough role she's got to be up against Sean Penn, Leo she's doing a lot and she does it incredibly but their relationship as father and daughter is so relatable it's very like like a teenage girl rolling their eyes at their dad.

25:26And he does it really, really well. And Leo and his dad era is a trick we haven't seen before. And it might, I agree with you, Rebecca, it might be something that really pushes him forward in the conversation because there is so much heart to it. Yeah. Oh, I do want to tell one Leo story from the year he won because I was backstage at the press room when that happened. and the press room is the first stop they make after they win the Oscar on stage. They come back and do a few interviews and a woman asked him a question, a very normal, benign question from a reporter and he just was like stunned.

26:06Like he couldn't answer the question. He was just like, so clearly he wanted this. You could tell in that moment that he was just stunned he had won and like taking it in in a way that I still remember that moment because, you know, these actors are so charming and rehearsed And that's one of the few times you can see them actually be shocked that it really did happen. And I remember that for him because there was this narrative about how long he'd been waiting. And it remains one of my favorite moments backstage. Dangerous question. Do we think that some of the personal life of Leo, the dating the models, the yachts in Ibiza, going to the Jeff Bezos-Loren Sanchez wedding.

26:50Do you think that rubs off on him for the Academy or do you think he's immune to that? I mean, it's nothing new. He was dating models when The Revenant came out. It's true. He, you know, he has a yacht of fun. The image of him like pulling the hat over his entire face at the wedding will haunt me forever. Agreed. But, you know, it's kind of the fact that before the screening, I was saying, oh, you know, baby spit up. That's not something Leo ever is dealing with. And it kind of comes with the bit at this point and for the past several years, right? Like, I think that his personal life and the image therein, I don't think is going to be changing anyone's mind.

27:42Yeah, I agree. I think he's created enough of a barrier of some kind. I think that— And a body of work. Yes, and a body of work as a real actor. In the body of a bear. Sorry. Yeah, I just don't think that will affect him. And the way he does protect sort of any conversation about his personal life from ever bleeding through to his press, I think you're right. It will not affect this, and it's not anything new. So I think that's not really going to be a part of it. Rebecca, do you think Leo will get a nom for this movie? I do think he will get a nom, but I think the field is incredibly crowded.

28:26Like I made a list of other actors in the race. I see. And it's like 15 actors long. It's a crazy year and not enough of these movies have played to enough people for us to know who else is going to be in there. I'm just going to rattle off a bunch of names without saying they're movies just to give listeners a feel here. Timothy Chalamet, Jeremy Allen White, Dwayne Johnson, Jesse Plemons, Michael B. Jordan, Brendan Fraser, George Clooney, Daniel Day-Lewis, Paul Meskel, Ethan Hawke, Colin Farrell, Channing Tatum, Will Arnett, Joel Edgerton. Like, it's just crazy. So there's only five slots, but I think Leo is one of the few we could say is locked for one of them.

29:02Oh, you think he's locked? I do think Leo is locked. I really do. Oh, you do. I want him to be, but I think in order to do it, he's going to have to do just a little bit more than he's comfortable with. Just a little. Just a little. The movie's opening in September. It's a long road to January 16th when those final ballots are filled out. and he's going to have to remind people a little that, you know, sometimes you just have to, it's like Groundhog Day. He has to poke his head out and just be like, yeah, you should nominate me, guys. Like, I deserve it for this. You like me. Yeah, you do like me.

29:46You should nominate me for this. Because, you know, for Killers of the Flower Moon, the way he approached that movie was he really supported Marty, the filmmaker, and he supported Lily Gladstone's performance. and he did very little about his own work in it, which was also very good. And he ended up not getting a nomination. So here, I know he loves to support his filmmakers. I know he loves to support his co-stars and he does do that really well. I hope he just does a little bit. I hope he supports himself because a little bit of that will go a long way. Someone's got to look out for Leo. Someone, please.

30:28People at home are probably right now like, this man's insane. What is this guy talking about? Leah's fine. He's doing fine. Yeah, we're just talking in the context of being one of those five. What do you think the equivalent of sleeping inside a bear would be for this movie? Not bathing for six days and wearing the same bathrobe. I don't even. Give me an Oscar. I think the father-daughter. Yeah. Father-daughter relationship. And, you know, we don't want to give anything away, but the ending has an emotional ending to it. And there is a heart to this film that is going to resonate. It feels real, you know.