Michael B. Jordan Feels Like He's "Getting Beat Up By [His] Wildest Dreams"

0:28Hi, listeners. It's Rebecca.

0:37Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford. My guest today is the incredible Michael B. Jordan, the actor, director, and producer who's nominated for his first Oscar this year for the dual roles of Smoke and Stack in Ryan Coogler's Sinners. Sinners might seem like an unlikely Oscar film. It's a genre movie, for one, playing with horror tropes. Plus, it came out all the way back in April of last year, well before the Oscar race usually kicks off. But the film has had an extraordinary reception and momentum ever since last spring, and it's racked up a historic 16 nominations.

1:17It's also excellent, thanks in no small part to Michael B. Jordan's performance as both of the Smokestack twins, who open up a juke joint in rural Mississippi in 1932. I caught up with Michael last week after the Academy's nominee's luncheon. We talked about the technical difficulty of acting against yourself, his long career from All My Children to the Oscars, and about his upcoming directorial project, a remake of The Thomas Crown Affair. Let's dive in.

1:49Thank you, Michael B. Jordan, for being here today. I'm so excited we could do this, and I'm so impressed that you were doing this on the day you spent several hours at the nominee's luncheon celebrating your nomination, and now you're here with me. So I feel very honored that you had the time after that. You're all so good. Thanks for taking the time to do this. How was it? It was your first nominee's luncheon? Lots of Sinner's friends there? A lot of Sinner's crew and cast was definitely in attendance, and it felt awesome. And it was, you know, it felt like high school all over again, like a class pitcher.

2:22You know, you felt a part of the community in a really big way. So it was a fun experience. Yeah. And in other big news, yesterday was also your birthday. Yes. Two big days in a row. How do you celebrate? Listen, I, you know, so blessed and fortunate to have, like, you know, so many things going on and successful things at that. Super Bowl Sunday, got a chance to, like, watch the game. And I had some family and friends over and got an opportunity just to just be, you know, do a little karaoke, watch the game, you know, just watch my niece and nephew and the rest of the kids run around and, you know, get all sugar high and go be crazy and then give them back to their parents and get them out of here.

3:05It was awesome. The best part of being an uncle, I think. Isn't it? So let's jump into Sinners. I've seen this film several times. I think your performance is some of the most incredible acting I've seen, especially the demand of playing two characters who are so distinctive from each other. The minute you said, yes, Ryan, I'm going to do this, the minute you started prep, what did you feel like was the very first thing you had to do to prepare to play two characters? I had to write their backstories, I think. I got journals for a smoking stack and had an opportunity to really crack through their childhood with Ryan and be as colorful as we needed to be and go through those milestone character canon moments in their life.

3:59the childhood trauma that they carried with them, the trauma of, you know, their environment and, you know, the world that they were living, the era that they were living in coming up in the early 1900s, um, that would ultimately get us into that, you know, 1930 sweet spot that our story picks up on. So doing that was kind of like the first things that I kind of like went through. And then everything else is like, you know, you build in a house, you know, it's like layers and layers and layers that you kind of have to dive into, working with my dialect coach to really, and doing some chakra work and some energy work to really identify where he's holding his pain, where he's holding his trauma, and let that dictate and determine a little bit of his cadence in which they speak, small core stack, the way that they walk.

4:44The music that I was listening to, this music is such a vital heartbeat of this movie. The type of music that they were listening to, the, for both brothers, you know, it was, I had to be very specific to both of them. Key phrases that kind of kept me in their dialect and their cadence, you know, I used some old recordings from the late 30s for Smoke, and I found like this older, this older black woman from the South, from like the mid 30s that I used for Stack. and keeping those, you know, nearby to kind of keep me locked in. And yeah, there's a whole technical aspect of filming it. But to answer your question, just starting from the inside out, you know, really starting from, you know, where they carry their emotions and their pains and then just building on top of that piece by piece.

5:36I recently spoke with Sinner's DP, Autumn, and she happened to just mention in passing that you make the hard stuff look easy, which is such a, I think, a true thing about your acting in general. But internally, did you feel intimidated or nervous about how demanding this project would be on you? I think a little bit at first when you're figuring out, I mean, with the unknown, when you just don't know what it's going to be. And I guess every version of it seems daunting or heavy, which it was. But once you do the work, the fun part is letting go and just kind of walking in every day. there's a workload and a demand that I enjoy in life in general.

6:18You know, I love multitasking and I'm pretty ambitious. You know, so I was up for the challenge. That's what I think. I was really excited about the challenge. How much I could change myself or how much, you know, what my limitations were going to be. And push beyond them. Can you talk to me about the opening scene? Because I think what's really smart about the film is it proves immediately that this is not a gimmick, that you're going to, as an audience member, I viewed those two characters as different people. I wasn't, you know, watching how you did it. And I think the way they just passed this cigarette between the two of them, just like immediately, like, yes, I see this.

6:57This is real. And what do you remember about filming that? Did you all read it? It was 120 degrees. It was so goddamn hot. No, no, no. I think it was probably the hottest thing to shoot. It had to have been. and we did that shit at like high noon. It was ridiculous. And those three-piece suits, the hat, it was cooking. And it was one of those ones where we were still. So it wasn't like moving around or you can get a little bit of breeze from walking. It was like, no, stand still in his hot-ass car until we got it right. But no, it was a really ambitious shot that we've been talking about all through pre-production.

7:33And one of the ones that we used for our camera tests earlier on, we were working through some things. And, you know, Mike Rollins, our incredible, you know, visual effects, you know, head and finding the process of how we were actually going to do it, you know, and the technicality of continuity of hitting that mark, you know, over and over and over again and finding how to pass it. And what was the right? Okay, you hold a cigarette like this and a cigarette like that. Okay, I'm not going to look at you because they're twins. They've been doing this all their lives. So it's secondhand nature.

8:05They kind of know and feel exactly where they're going to be at. So working out that rhythm, it took a long time, but that shot kind of symbolized a little bit of like the egg multiplying, you know? So it starts out as one, as Smoke being the oldest since he was the first. And then you see the twin as the egg kind of divides as he kind of pan and you show Stack. And I thought that was like super ambitious and again, setting the tone immediately for the relationship and how to view these guys for the rest of the movie. Is something like that where you're saying they're still and it has to be perfectly choreographed harder or something like that last fight sequence where you're fighting yourself in these scenes where there's so much action?

8:48Oh, man, I was quickly getting to say that. The fight scene was probably easier than the cigarette. But I would like to say that, man. I've stumped you. No, they're extremely hard, but for different reasons. I would say it's hard to say which one's harder, but I would say the cigarette because of like the elements at the time, the stillness and the margin for error was like, fuck, like nothing. Like it was like you either get it or we didn't get it, you know. The fighting myself one, there was a formula to it. And that was an evolving, growing thing as we were shooting it. Yes, there was blocking.

9:25Yes, there were certain things, but we would have to sometimes maybe abandon a shot or a piece of choreo if it wasn't working the way we needed to, to really achieve the things that we needed to achieve. Having a twin double and having a stunt double to fight against. But then also remembering that choreo and those emotions and being able to play both sides of it. And then, you know, later on doing the face replacement and blending things the way they needed to blend it was a whole other layer as well. Would you say this is the hardest role you've ever had? Yes. For a lot of the obvious reasons of like playing two people.

9:59And the fact that I didn't have something that I normally have as a performer, which is the ability to improv and be spontaneous. Because whatever brother goes first sets the rules and the boundaries. Because the second take that I do, I'm marrying to that first performance. Oh, interesting. So if I walked in a certain area or if I occupied a certain space on set or said something, that's there. When I become the other twin, I can't walk in that same space at the same time. I can't talk over him in a certain area. So I have to leave these spaces and these moments to listen. So what that does is I have to premeditate what I'm acting against.

10:42So when I'm directing my twin double in rehearsal, I'm like, yo, I might walk over here by this door. and then Stack's going to like look that way. And then, you know, you count to four and then look at your brother. Then I'm going to look at my brother because that's a moment where I want eye contact between the two brothers. That's a look, not something that's nonverbal communication. And then we're going to move at the same time over to that door. That's something I got to tell him exactly what I would do, et cetera, et cetera. And then he loosely does that. But if in the moment, if I don't want to look at him in that moment or if I don't want to do something else, it handicaps me in that way.

11:17You know, so but when I go the second time, I can look back at what I did the first time and I can pick nuances throughout there. So I lay little like seeds of things that doesn't necessarily derail the individual choices of smoke to say smoke. But when I turn to the stack, if I chose to pick up on any of those seeds, it would be a moment of connectivity between the twins that that would feel like something spontaneous. It would feel like something like we just decided to do in the moment. But it was all premeditated. So I think that's like one of the biggest challenges that I faced on that that made it like the hardest thing that I've done.

11:58Interesting. Did you always shoot one brother first or did it vary depending on the scene? It really varied. Like we tried to do that for a few times, but just depending on like where the scene was and the setup, it's actually kind of too selfish to like always stick to one brother. But I would always want to go with Stack first, personally, because Stack speaks in a higher octave. He has more energy. He's more talkative. Normally, by the end of the day, I'm like hanging on by a thread. So naturally, Smoke's in a lower octave, and he doesn't move around as much. So it always felt easier on me, Mike, to probably do Smoke last because I can naturally fall into a lower register because I'm naturally tired.

12:43et cetera, et cetera. And I don't have to, like, at the end of the day, try to fucking get up into stack. And then also, I'm smoking fake cigarettes all day. Right, right. So naturally, I mean, there's only but so much tea and lemon and honey that you can have. You know, I naturally, my voice would be just shot by the end of the day. So we would have to protect those things in certain areas. But yeah, that's kind of how we did it. Ryan Coogler's talked about how personal this story is to him, inspired by his own great uncle. James. Yeah. I'm curious if you had personal ties, you know, that led to inspiration for you as well.

13:20If there's anything from your own past that felt really connected to it. Yeah, my grandmother's side of the family is from Hope, Arkansas. My dad's side of the family is from Shreveport, Louisiana. And they were all sharecroppers growing up. So my lineage, my history is from that era. And you don't really realize it. But for me, it was my realization that I only know my grandparents as being older people. Right. And then you forget, like, oh, shit, grandma was 30 one time. you know and you know and i'm sure she went to a juke you know and or had moments of you know having fun you know all those things that grandmother that you know me growing up that's disciplinary and you know and very strict don't sit on that couch and you close make sure that all that you forget oh yeah that's what they were they were my age they were entrepreneurs they were fighting for freedom they were fighting for like you know some happiness some joy and in that world in a time and an era that said that you couldn't have it, you know?

14:17So it turned out being like a love letter to my great-grandparents and my grandparents and great-uncles and cousins and everybody that's kind of, you know, been on that journey. So the film's been out for a while now, not quite a year, but many months. Have you, you know, and you've been touring the world with it at times, have you had any reactions that have been very surprising to you from fans or audience members or other people in the film industry? I mean, whenever I hear somebody say they've seen the movie like 10 or 11 times, I'm like, whoa. No, that's like, that's support, yes. But then you're getting something from that.

14:54Like the things that they take away, you know, which is funny because after the movie came out, I was already in production for Thomas Crown. So I was already directing that one. And I wasn't able to really be out. I didn't, the only way I knew what was going on with that movie was through my phone. so once I finished crown I was able to kind of like walk around a little bit and be out in the world I kind of really felt the impact of the movie really made you know and the fact that people the replayability of the movie and things that people were taking away and I was like man we didn't even mean to shoot it like that but that's what you took from it you know it's just a testament to Ryan's specificity becoming so universal you know that's one of his superpowers that he does with his movies.

15:38He's an empathetic person. He tells stories about the truth in very specific things and experiences, but everybody taps into it in all walks of life, in all generations, somehow walk away feeling like they got something from it. Yeah. And I think that's pretty powerful.

15:59More of my conversation with Michael B. Jordan after the break.

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18:03So, Michael, Smoke and Stack, Eric Killmonger, Oscar Grant, a lot of these characters you play have a very heavy emotional weight to them. Do you ever have trouble letting go of a character after you're done, or does part of them stick around with you? I think when I was younger, maybe like a decade ago, maybe harder to let go. You know, I think now, like, I ain't had no blueprint to any of this shit. I'm figuring this out as I go, trial and error, figuring out what works for me. And the process of letting characters go or transitioning out of one to the next has been what works for me within these two characters or this character.

18:44Therapy. And then also there's a part of these characters that are never going to leave me. There's a lot of these characters, there's a piece of me, a piece of them with me always. ways. So that's, you know, that's comforting. But yeah, I think I got better at it as I got older. I think it helps when you discover therapy as well. It sounds like that's always a plus. Yeah, I mean, I encourage it. You know, it's something that I've threaded, the idea of emotional intelligence and being able to communicate that and how you communicate your feelings and, you know, things that have gone on, especially through men and black men at that, you know, that toxic masculinity and what that looks like and all those things.

19:31So yeah, yeah, I'm an advocate for talking. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about you and Ryan Coogler. Obviously, you've had such an incredible collaboration, artistic partnership throughout the years. I was such a fan of Fruit Fail Station when I saw it, and I've just been so impressed how you both have grown as artists. Did you know when you first started working together that this might be a lifelong collaboration at the time, or does it just keep growing as you grow? I'll say yes and no. I'll say that there was an immediate connection, you know, and a like-minded approach to the work that just made us compatible.

20:13But before I even shot one frame of Fruitvale Station, he already pitched to me Creed 1. So there was already a double feature that was in the, you know, God willing, you know, yeah, things were going to work out that way. But the plan before we even shot Fruitvale was to do another movie. So, yeah, I thought that we had chemistry and in success, we should do this again. And the no of, you know, nothing's guaranteed and who knows what's going to happen in the future, you know, holds what it's going to hold, you know. But yeah, yeah, it has worked out that way. How did the two of you show up in your personal lives?

20:56I assume you're also friends. You have a friendship. I mean, how do you two support each other off set? You know, there's like marquee moments for sure. You know what I'm saying? And the milestone, you know, holidays or, you know, special moments and events and, you know, him and his family's life that I'm always showing up for. We're in each other's community, which is great. You know, we're both very busy people, but very family oriented as well. Yeah. You know, birthday was, you know, yesterday. You know, I woke up to a FaceTime message of him and his three kids singing me happy birthday. You know what I'm saying?

21:30Uncle Mike. And it's just like, it's like one of those things where, you know, you got best friends where you may not speak every day, but when you do, it's like no time is lost. You get picked right back up. That's kind of like it is with us. And then we have concentrated moments of time where we do nothing else but work together. Right. Yeah. No love is lost. No time is lost. You've been working as an actor for, you know, since you were quite young. I mean, The Wire, Friday Night Lights. You're number one, huh? You ain't want to say it. Go ahead. It's all good. It's all good. I mean, but when you start out that young, I do wonder if you have to have a moment where you're saying, I'm committing to this as an adult.

22:06Like, this is what I'm going for as a career. Do you remember a moment or a time when you felt like you had to make that choice? Mm-hmm. It was when I decided not to go to college in L.A. I think that was the no looking back, pointing no return. My dad was very, is very, you know, be serious about something. And at the time, you know, being an actor, you know what I'm saying, like wasn't really like a, you know, I'm first generation, you know, actor. So it's like, it's not like a typical, you know, dad, I'm going to be an actor. Like, okay, you know, no, graduate school, you go to college, get a degree, get a job.

22:39You know, there's those like, you know, checkpoints that I think a lot of people from that generation kind of thinks is the way to kind of get to some stability and security. but yeah when I decided not to go to school and move to LA that was the the put up or shut up you know I'm all into this and yeah there were moments you know a lot of moments where you're like oh man I don't know how am I gonna get through this next month like I ain't got the money for I ain't no rent like I I'm already went through savings I don't borrow money I don't oh man and then whenever it felt like I was almost getting ready having to move back or it wasn't working out, I would book something, you know?

23:17And then, and then, then you hit a stretch where you could put a run of projects together. Like the goal was always to kind of get to a point where you could stack, you know, and actually like, you know, get on the positives and get out of the next, you know? And that happened around like 2009, I think. And then from there, it was just like a, it seemed like the floodgates opened up. Yeah. Everything was still hard and challenging, hard work, all that good shit, but it felt like I had momentum and I could put a run of projects together. And then when you do that, you maximize it, you know, and you really make, you make a moment out of it.

23:51And that was intentional. You know, I've been very intentional for a long time. Yeah. I think that is something I've noticed about the way you've sort of navigated this career, but also producing and sort of all the choices you've made. Do you have a project from your past that maybe holds a special place in your heart, even if it's not one of the ones you're most well known for, whether it was because of the way you grew as an actor or the way it changed you? Is there any of your projects that sort of holds that place for you? I mean, All My Children definitely is one that doesn't get enough praise for my molding in the early years of being around professional actors that's been doing it for a long time.

24:34Me coming off of The Wire, which is still me more imitating and just more and more and more and more, just really learning the idea of trying to become somebody else. And All My Children is kind of where I honed that. I think being prepared and knowing your lines and, you know, and the pace. We were doing 100 plus pages a day, episode and a half. Like we were churning those things out. So daily you had to be on top of your game and working with like Susan Lucci and Darnell Williams and Walt Wiley and all the slew of actors that have been through soap operas. That was my acting class. That was where I got a chance to experiment and to grow.

25:16So many people say that about soaps, like that because of the pace, it really just helps hone you as an actor. It's so interesting. And that's when you knew Amanda Seyfried from that. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Amanda was working on that together. That's where we first met. It's wild. so a thing I've noticed is that it's pretty rare for an actor to be going through this the sort of awards circuit while also being on post on a movie he directed I can't think of another example of that happening and what's it been like for you like how do you keep the balance I know you're a workaholic and a multitasker but this is pretty seems pretty extreme to be juggling yeah it's pretty extreme we can go out and call it what it is yeah this is uh it's challenging but uh it's sometimes it's good to kind of like be able to get out of something that you have no control over you know and then i could go back to my edit my post and and something that i have full control over you know yeah it's it's good to break up the mental um and get back to the work i wish i had a twin for real right that would help I can break some of this up a little bit.