Sex Is Back (On Screen)!

0:01Hey, Little Gold Men listeners, especially the ones across the pond. We're recording a Little Gold Men episode live in London on the evening of February 19th with the cast of Sentimental Value. We've got a select number of tickets to give out to our listeners. So if you'd like to join the fun, email us at littlegoldmen at vf.com. We hope to see you there.

0:30Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, vanity affairs podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford. And I'm John Ross. John, busy weekend. I think I'll say that every week until we get to the Oscars, but how are you doing? Well, it was less busy than last weekend, but I went to the DGAs on Saturday, which is a very long award show. But, you know, listen, I don't think there was a lot of surprises as in there was none. Paul Thomas Anderson won the big award. What was really interesting, I guess I didn't fully realize or I didn't put two and two together, but Christopher Nolan as the president of the DGA is like a big deal.

1:20Yeah, yeah. They kept calling him President Nolan on the stage, like, as a joke. And he got up there and his speech was short but pointed. And he was very, like, clear. He was like, there are still audiences for the work that we're doing. We just need to make sure that we're being taken care of. And then he sort of looked at Ted Sarandos, Pam Abdi, and Mike DeLuca, who were sitting in the front row. And they're the executives at Warner Brothers and Netflix. You know, they're the big guns. And it was a little like, stand at attention, boys, because Nolan's got his eye on you. I mean, he's one of the most powerful people in Hollywood, period.

2:10So to have him as your president of your union is, you know, a really big deal. It's crazy to me. I think he's got a huge movie coming out next year. Like, who has the time to also run a union? But I think he's going to make a huge impact. Yeah. I mean, he was pretty clear that he takes this seriously. I mean, he takes everything seriously. And it was cool to see that. And then Spielberg was in the audience. He presented. So the DGAs, all the nominated directors for theatrical film get to make little speeches and get a presentation. and Spielberg presented to Chloe Zhao for Hamnet. He's a producer.

2:52And just everyone in the audience kept giving him shout-outs and he's the reason why they got into filmmaking. So that was cool. Kumail Nanjiani's opening monologue was super sharp, very funny. I will say, though, a lot of female directors won. A lot of female director nominees, you know, especially in the television space and a lot of them won. So that was cool. That's nice to hear. Yeah. In the year of 2026. I know, I mean, listen, we gotta take the wins when you can. Like, you know, like the Pitt was a female director, the SNL special was a female director. There was a bunch. Yeah. Well, I think the next big award show will be the Independent Spirit Awards, which are this coming weekend.

3:40And I'll be there in the room. I think if we want to just sort of loosely talk predictions, I feel like it'll be a pretty good night for Trained Dreams. I think that film really has sort of the indie spirit to it, along with being an Oscar nominee and having that sort of high profile. Is there anything else you're watching out for indie spirits, John? No. I mean, other than that, the show is really fun. I mean, it's one of the most fun shows. Yeah. And we talk about the Gothams, which got rid of. The cap on budgets. The budget cap. Yeah, so it's nice that the indie spirits truly are a place to celebrate those types of films solely.

4:23Oh, I will say the other person who got the biggest shout out at the DGAs was Michelle Satter, who runs the Sundance Institution. Every single director that was nominated in theatrical had all gone through the Sundance labs and all thanked her. Chloe, Ryan, PTA, Guillermo, maybe not Josh Safdie, but she was like the big goomba of the night. Yeah, so that was cool. So indie films still matters. Yeah, and Sundance's labs still really matter. I mean, they really are a hub for filmmakers to get their first films made. All right. So before we dive into the main topic today, we wanted to let listeners know that we're doing a Little Gold Men live show in London right before the BAFTAs on February 19th.

5:20We'll be joined on stage by Stellan Skarsgård, and there's a little cocktail party afterwards. We're holding a very select number of tickets for Little Gold Men listeners. So if you want to come, email us at littlegoldmen at vf.com. And we're also going to be doing a mailbag episode soon, so you can send us any questions that you have to that same email address, littlegoldmen at vf.com. So today on the show, we're taking a pause from this year's Oscar race to talk about a little film that's opening today, Emerald Fennell's polarizing adaptation of Wuthering Heights. And we've been saying this for months, and Kumail also said at the DGAs, sex is back on screens.

6:06So later in the show, Chris Murphy is going to join us and talk about some of the titillating shows and movies we've been seeing already this year. And we're also going to talk about why the Academy doesn't seem to always like to reward these sort of movies that have explicitly sexual themes, even if they're incredibly popular. John, why don't we start with Wuthering Heights? Obviously, this is a new and a very loose adaptation of the 1847 Emily Bronte novel written and directed by Emerald Fennell. It stars Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi as Kathy and Heathcliff, who grew up together and are clearly very drawn to each other, but, you know, have a hard time actually being together.

6:47John, so what did you think? I think that Jacob Elordi is acting with every muscle in his body, especially his tongue. He does the best tongue acting I've seen in a movie in years. I can't remember the last time. I know when was the last one. Last time we've seen a tongue really commit to a performance. I thought it was super fun. I think it totally works. Their chemistry is off the charts. It has enough of the emerald, you know, perverse or what is it? Yeah, visceral, subversive stuff in there. It is a studio movie, so it's not at the level of salt burn or promising young woman, which, you know, had such a twist at the end.

7:42But it is a really fun time. And I thought it looked beautiful. It takes some pretty major liberties from the book. And also for those who have read the book, like all film adaptations of Wuthering Heights, they just get rid of the last third of the book, which has this completely different, strange sort of thing with the kids, which is actually kind of the falling in love again and again and again and again, the Charlie XCX song. That's kind of like what the book is. It's like they keep repeating the story even through generations. But I just thought it worked. I agree. I think it totally works.

8:24I think a lot of that is because Jacob Allordi is so good in this movie. Like every choice he makes is just, like I was reading some interview where there's a scene where Heathcliff like covers Kathy's face. So she's like shielded from the rain. And apparently that was an improv moment like that Jacob just did. And it's like women are just like falling out of the aisles swooning for this guy in this movie. And it really, really works. And Margot, you know, she's so charismatic. She's just an actor you can't take your eyes off. And that's a hard character to play. Kathy's very complicated, and I think she really pulls it off.

9:02So the chemistry is incredible. And I think the filmmaking is really, it's fun in certain ways, and especially with the production design and the costuming, which is not, like, period accurate. Like, she really has a lot of fun with the way she makes this film look. I, you know, I'm an Emerald Stan. and I love her first two movies. I love how far she pushes things. And I was kind of waiting for like, you know, the bathwater scene in Saltburn. It wasn't horny enough for you. It wasn't horny. I could have used a little more. A little bit more horny? Yeah, just a little bit more like creepy horny because I feel like that's, it's an obsessive love, right?

9:43Which I think she's really good at capturing. And I could have used like just 5 % more. You needed 5 % more creepy horny. Yes. I was fine with the amount of horny. I hear you, but I also think she is making a Wuthering Heights adaptation, and she's making a movie for a wider audience. So I think that she got enough of her signature stuff in there, but not so much so that it would alienate maybe the casual moviegoer who wants to see a Wuthering Heights adaptation. There, should we talk a little bit about the controversy though in casting Jacob Elordi as Heathcliff. Emerald spoke about it kind of briefly on the carpet where she basically said this is her version of an adaptation of the book and this is how she envisioned it.

10:45But the character Heathcliff in the book is described as dark skinned. What are your thoughts? Yeah, it's complicated. I think I've seen a lot on social media where this is coming up for people. You know, I think this is clearly sort of like Emerald Flannell's like experience with this book. Although, you know, I think if every white filmmaker said I'm only making a film from my point of view, then film would not be diverse a lot of the time. So I think Jacob is the right actor to play this. And I think we have to just go with it in this way. But I think that will always be a conversation that's going to come up now because the audiences are a little more demanding when it comes to making sure representation is fair.

11:35As they should be. I would say it would be a shame if we didn't get to see Jacob Elordi play that role because he's so good at it. but it's something Emerald has to be able to answer, which it sounds like she has. She did. It wasn't the strongest answer, but I think it was true to what she believes, which is, this is my vision. And she said, you can make a Wuthering Heights adaptation every year. I also think the things that she focuses on from the book are different from other adaptations. She really focuses on the sexual politics and dynamics between the two characters and less about, there's a lot of stuff in the book about like the class discrepancy, which is in there, but that's not really what she's trying to go for because it's not meant to be a true representation of the 1840s.

12:32It's a sort of dream world that she's created. Yeah, I think the other thing we're gonna be watching closely this weekend is how this does at the box office. This is Warner Brothers' first movie of the year. Obviously, they had so much success with original filmmaking with Sinners and One Battle After Another last year. But this isn't a safe play by any means, I think. They, in my opinion, really need women to show up to make this movie work at the box office. How do you think it's going to do, John? The problem with tracking for movies like this is that it can be a pretty wide range. So like for Marvel films, they can get pretty close to where they're going to get.

13:17But a movie like this, it's like, yes, Weathering Heights is known IP. Jacob Elordi is very famous. The premieres have obviously been spectacular with all the fashion. But there's kind of a wide range. So I don't know. But I also think like, what the hell else are people going to see this Valentine's Day weekend? I feel like what they've done well is they've made this like an event film in terms of like, do you want to be a part of the conversation? Then you have to come see this film. And also, Jacob and Margot's promo together has been really strong. We talked a lot last year about like promotion for films and how sometimes they don't actually connect to the film and it can get confusing.

14:02That's not the case for this. the whole promo tour for Wuthering Heights, you know when you see Jacob and Margo together that it's for Wuthering Heights. Yeah. Right? Like the movie's name comes up the second you see them, which is incredibly important. Right. I do think it's going to do well. I don't know. I'm always a little biased if I've seen the film. I know we're in this bubble though. It's tricky, but I think the messaging, like you're saying, has been really strong. And I feel like people are, you know, they'll either turn out for them or they want to see what Emerald's going to do. And I think people will see it.

14:39And so far, everyone I've talked to who has seen it has been very positive on it. So I think you're right. Even if it's not quite creepy horny enough for me, I think it's more accessible than her other movies. Well, I think it's, I mean, Rebecca, it's horny enough for most people. It's not horny enough for you. If you know her movies, you're expecting a bathwater scene. There's not quite that, but there is a lot of really good stuff in it. I think that social media is going to explode on Thursday night and Friday morning with all the Jacob stuff. I mean, people are going to be like... Yeah, there's a couple of crazy good scenes.

15:15Or just like you're getting to see Jacob in full heartthrob mode. And he's doing a lot. And so I think that's going to explode on social media. and hopefully that's like the final like propellant for people to be like, okay, I'm seeing it. You know, people that are like, I don't know, is it just going to be like them yearning but not enough stuff? And then people are going to be like, there's enough in there. There's enough. Go, go, go. Well, I think it's great timing for him as well. Obviously, he's the Oscar nominee for Frankenstein and having him sort of back in front of everyone doesn't hurt his campaign at all either.

15:56So we're very happy for Jacob O 'Horby. Yeah, what a year. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, we're talking about how sex and romance are showing up all over our screens this season. Stick around.

16:23Come see Critics at Large live. On February 19th, we're going to be at the 92nd Street Y in New York City for a conversation about Wuthering Heights. There's a new adaptation coming up starring Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi, and we will certainly be getting into that, but we'll also do what we, humbly I'll say, what we do best. Returning to the text, we're going to go deep on the gothic and Emily Bronte. Join me, Vincent Cunningham, and my co-hosts, Alex Schwartz and Nomi Frye, for the discussion. And crucially, if you buy a VIP ticket, you'll join us for an after party too. Go to 92ny.org for more information.

17:06That's 92ny.org. Hope to see you there. This episode is brought to you by MUBI, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover. With MUBI, each and every film is hand-selected so you can explore the best of cinema. Die My Love is now streaming on Mubi in the U.S., U.K., Canada, and many other countries. A visceral and uncompromising portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness, Die My Love is anchored by a ferocious Golden Globe-nominated performance from Jennifer Lawrence and co-stars Robert Pattinson.

17:50Lynne Ramsey marks her eagerly awaited return with this fearless new cinematic vision that charts the complexity of love and how it can change and transform over time. To stream the best of cinema, you can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash littlegoldmen. That's MUBI.com slash littlegoldmen for a whole month of great cinema for free.

18:21Welcome back to Little Gold Men and welcome to VF staff writer, Chris Murphy. Hi, Chris. Hi, thanks for having me back on the podcast. It's nice to have you back since I've basically been slacking and texting you about these projects and now we can talk about it on air. Yes, we've talked a lot privately, but let's bring it to the public. Why not? I feel left out. Gotta get in our slacks, John. I don't like it. So we've talked a little bit about Wuthering Heights and the sexually charged yearning that Emerald Fennell put on the screen, but I wanted to turn now to another new project that's coming out, the new show Love Story, John F.

18:59Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bissett, which is out on FX now. Chris, you did a great first look, which I immediately read after I started watching this show because I had so many questions about the cast and how they pulled this off. can you tell us a little bit about the show? Yeah, well thank you for reading the first look actually I did a first look and then I also profiled Sarah Pidgeon and Paul Anthony Kelly in our winter issue which is out on newsstands now but yeah, it's a new franchise from Ryan Murphy you've seen American Horror Story you've seen American Crime Story you didn't see American Sports Story because nobody watched it and now we have a new franchise love story not American, no American in the title anymore and the first iteration is following the, you know, Roland romance and tragic deaths of Carolyn Bessette and John F.

19:49Kennedy Jr., JFK Jr., who's famously, you know, son of President JFK and Jackie O. So there's a lot of, like, American history and, like, lore in this series, but also it is a romance. It's about him, you know, America's prince and Carolyn Bessette, who is, you know, a shop girl in Boston. She worked as a sales clerk at Calvin Klein and was plucked from there. to headquarters in New York City and worked her way up to become sort of a PR maven for Calvin Klein and winds up meeting JFK Jr. and they fall in love. But it's really complicated. As someone who wasn't a conscious being in the 90s and didn't know much about Carolyn Bessette and JFK Jr.

20:28Right, we know that. Sorry. Because I'm so young. I'm a baby goo-goo-ga-ga. I really didn't know how sort of up and down their relationship was. And, you know, it wasn't just this like linear, like easy match made in heaven thing. They both had exes. His was famously Daryl Hannah. Hers was a model, a Calvin Klein model. And it was really like, it was fascinating. And I know everything with the Kennedys is fraught. It's, you know, it's real. These are real people. The family is still very much in the political conversation. But yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of eyes on the show just because while it is a period piece and we're looking back at Carolyn and John and their relationship, the Kennedys are a real big part of our American culture to this very day.

21:18And we've all seen the show now, and we all really like it, right? Yeah. Yeah, I know with Ryan Murphy, it's so hit or miss, and you never really know what you're going to get with him. But I think the show is really good. It's really addictive. And I think particularly both Sarah and Paul do great work, but particularly Sarah Pidgeon as Carolyn Bissett is really fantastic and, you know, just phenomenal in it. And that's really, you know, anchors the show is their relationship and their chemistry. And so I think they did a spot-on job with casting, which is really important for a show that's all about chemistry and love.

21:55We haven't seen hair acting as good with Sarah Pidgeon since like Kristen Stewart Twilight. Like she is slipping that hair back and forth. And isn't it just by like the, it's mesmerizing. It's hypnotic. It's like, I can't remember the last time I like fell in love with a girl's, a woman's hair on a television show. I'm like, let's go back to the 90s. I will dye my hair blonde. I will be this person. Like it's so good. So good. And there was drama with that hair. When the test shots came out, people said, Sarah does not look like Carolyn Bissette. They thought the styling was wrong and the hair was all wrong.

22:34And Ryan Murphy and company, they responded to the feedback and they got a new costume designer, Rudy Mance, to come in like days into production. Production had already started. And a new hairstylist. And I really think, you know, they did a bang up job in terms of delivering on the promise of Carolyn. You know, this Mandy's it girl. She looks so effing cool. which is what she was, right? I mean, I think the fascination with her was that she was just so cool. And she does that perfectly in this and effortlessly. She's smoking a cigarette in every scene. Not that we endorse smoking on this podcast.

23:19No, never. But it is very 90s. I mean, it is a reminder. Also, you were talking, you know, it's a period piece. it's kind of crazy for maybe some slightly older people, Chris, that the 90s is period, but it is now. And it just, I grew up in New York City, humble brag. It just felt like New York City in the 90s. They did a perfect job of it. And the chemistry between them is off the charts. I think that is what they had to get right with the show, is the chemistry and the sort of, as we're talking about this yearning that they capture, especially in the first few episodes when they are meeting and not together, it's really well done.

24:07There's this scene where she's measuring him for a suit and it's the sexiest suit measuring I've ever seen on screen. And you can just feel that chemistry. And I think it's really well done. And the casting is perfect. So they really pulled it off. It kind of reminds me of the O.J. Simpson season season of American Crime Story, which I thought, it feels more like prestige TV. It's really got a high quality to it. So I think this is similar to that. Yeah, totally. And I guess it should be mentioned that Ryan Murphy executive produces or produces the show, but it was created by a new writer actor, Connor Hines, first show, who created Love Story.

24:46So one to watch, because I do think he really nailed, he nailed the 90s vibe and also the, you know, the yearning and the chemistry. Yeah, as we were talking about sort of yearning and sex is really having a moment on both big screen and small. We can't have this episode and not talk about heated rivalry. The little Canadian show that has become... Not so little. I mean, I can't remember the last time there was something that was this much of a breakout for two actors in the way for Conor Story and Hudson William as this has been. and obviously that show is a lot about yearning and sex in a very bold fashion, I would say.

25:28Yeah, totally. I guess I wrote the profile for VF on Connor and Hudson pretty early in the game, right when it came out. So I guess my beat is kind of sex. That's part of my beat. We're happy you're here today. It's great. But yeah, I think it's so interesting because I think culturally, there's a lot of talk, Gen Zs, they're kind of sex negative, and they're, you know, they don't like to party, they don't like to do anything and whatnot. And it almost seems like the obsession with heated rivalry in particular, which is very sex forward and has these very intricate and long sex scenes that make up like most of the show, one might argue.

26:07It kind of seems like a rejection of that notion that like, oh, you know, society is moving away from sex and sort of like this like real warm embrace. And not only of sex, but of gay sex on television, which is something that like, those are words that like, you know, 15 years ago, we might not be saying. I remember when, back to Ryan Murphy, like, Curt and Blaine kissed on Glee and that was crazy. And now we're in an all new territory. We're way past that. We're way past kissing. But I do think it's an interesting reaction to, you know, this cultural myth about specifically like Zoomers and their relationship to sex.

26:44Yeah, I think the way heated rivalry also sort of transforms over the season to like, they're in a pretty like loving relation. There's a lot of love by the end of the season. I think it's really hard to do and they do it so well on that show that I didn't quite get the fascination until I watched the whole season and then the payoff I think in the final episode is pretty incredible. Yeah, and I mean on a similar note, it's like they found great, I think there was something about we want unknown actors now, right? We're so sick of Nippo babies and people that we've seen before. It's like they found these two great actors in Conor Story and Hudson Williams who really delivered that we had never seen before.

27:25So I think that casting can be so crucial into getting something like Love Story or Hedded Rivalry to pop. Yeah, I think television is a vehicle for discovery with actors, especially. And because they're making so many less movies, so many quote-unquote movie stars have moved into television, and there's been a little bit less of that. But then with Love Story and Heated Rivalry, you're seeing two sets of actors really be discovered, and that is part of the excitement. As you are discovering the actors, you can become obsessed with them as well. Do you know what I mean? I'm in love with them too.

28:13Like there's this sort of like, they're unknown. And so then you're starting to put your emotional like investment onto them. And that I think has been so successful, definitely for Heated Rivalry. And I think will be for Love Story as well. On that note, Heated Rivalry, I will say some of the fandom, it's getting a little intense online. It's getting nuts, right? It's getting nuts online. It's getting a little like parasocial and aggressive and people making a lot of assumptions into their personal lives and wanting to know everything and protect them and whatnot in a way that is a little like, I would say, alarming.