The Agony and the Ecstasy of Euphoria

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2:26Hello, and welcome to Little Gold Men, vanity affairs podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford. And I'm John Ross. John, how you doing? My bags are packed. You're ready to go. Yeah, I'm going to New York and then we're going to Cannes. How many bags, John? Well, I could be like one of the extras in the film Titanic, like with the trunks. I'm nervous. Well, Cannes is the hardest festival to pack for because you have to bring black tie. It could rain. You need different kinds of shoes. It's really tough. Well, poor us. It's a huge challenge, though. I'm not judging you. Cry me a river.

3:05Right, right. Rebecca, do you want to talk about the Academy announcement that they made last week? Some new rules. Yes, every year they announce a few new rules after the season. Many of them reflect what has happened in the most recent season. But I think there were a few big ones. They made some clearer language on AI, which basically said an AI actor is not eligible for the acting categories and a script written with AI is not eligible for the screenplay categories. Sorry, Claude. Which I think was obvious, but, you know, this is the organization that leads Hollywood. So for them to say it out loud is notable.

3:47And then the other interesting thing was they're opening up the international feature film category. Traditionally, those submissions are done by the country. So each country submits one film. Now, a film could also be submitted if it wins a major film festival like Cannes or Berlin or Venice. And that means certain films that the country didn't pick, like I think the big one is Anatomy of a Fall was not selected by France, which was a crazy thing to do. And that could have been submitted on its own as the Palm winner that year. So that's a big change. And the other one that I thought is worth noting is actors can compete in the lead category for two different performances, which they didn't used to be able to do.

4:32So studios would kind of finagle it if an actor was in two movies and put them in supporting in one and lead in the other. Yeah. So actually, these rule changes were pretty significant. Sometimes they make these announcements and I'm like, what? Like, what's the difference? I can't tell. This was real. um devil wears prada to made 233 million dollars worldwide so go disney i think this is part of a trend that films that are female-led and female-driven are doing really well obviously last year we had the house made which is very different but this is a huge success they nailed it with the sequel and they nailed getting people to go to the theaters.

5:18And then lastly, this was an interesting one, I thought. Netflix moved Narnia from Thanksgiving to February 2027 and they're giving it a wide theatrical release. So previously it was just going to be an IMAX theaters, but now they're committing to IMAX plus a 49-day theatrical window before it appears on Netflix. I kind of feel like that's a big deal, even though they keep saying it's just for this film and you'll never see it happen again. But they always do that. It's like putting your foot in the door. Yeah, I think it is a big deal. I think, I wonder how much of it kind of came about because, you know, when Netflix was potentially going to buy Warner, Ted was going around talking about how he is more open to theatrical and he's not against theatrical.

6:10And I wonder if those kind of sparked new conversations about it because it's exactly what you're saying. If you do it for one movie, people know you can do it again. And so filmmakers may start demanding that in the way they didn't. And I really hope it works because there are movies that go to Netflix that I think it's a shame we don't get to see them in theaters. So I hope people support it when it comes out in 2027, this new date. I think it's also good. They were going to have a tough time being up against the Dune, Avengers, Doomsday sort of glut of stuff. I know they were coming out a little bit before.

6:45I think like February, it's like there's less competition. It gives them more of a runway. I think it's good news for the potential for theatrical. It's setting them up, I think, for more success than if they were competing with a lot of projects in the fall. My big question, though, is does it take it out of being an Oscar contender? Because the previous date was a real Oscar date. All of Greta's previous films have been Oscar contenders. Oh, you mean for 20? Forever. Like, because it's in a February release is really early in the year to be an Oscar contender of 2027. It's definitely out of the Oscar race for this year.

7:23This year, of course. Yes, yes. Yeah, I think it's out of the Oscar. I think it's a true commercial kids film. All right. I think she made a true commercial kids film, which is good. great. I mean, I don't know if they ever really thought of it as a big awards thing. Although, like you said, everything she does is in the awards conversation because it's her. Well, we'll see. I guess we'll be keeping an eye on that. And one last thing, just as a reminder, we are heading to Cannes next week. So send us your questions about the festival to littlegoldman at vf.com.

8:01Today on the show, we're getting into the onscreen and offscreen drama of Euphoria. I've been referring to this episode as the agony and the ecstasy of Euphoria because this show has taken us on such a ride since it debuted in 2019. So to help us dig into things, I want to welcome a new voice to the Little Gold Men world. It's Vanity Fair senior staff writer Max Adler. Hi, Max. Hey, Rebecca. Hey, John. Thank you guys for having me today. We're happy to have you on our LA-based team and then, of course, are dragging you into Little Gold Men. So welcome. We're so happy to have you here. Yeah, LA hive rise.

8:40So Euphoria first premiered in 2019. It was created by Sam Levinson. You also may know him from The Idol and Malcolm & Marie. It stars Zendaya, Hunter Schaefer, Sydney Sweeney, Jacob Elordi, Alexa Demi, Maude Apatow. The list goes on and on. How would you guys describe what the show is about? Well, what the first two seasons are about? Yeah, start there. Start there. The first two seasons is a show set in high school that is centered around Rue, played by Zendaya, who is a recovering drug addict, and her group of friends. There's drama between them. There's a lot of high-stakes drama, but I think really at the heart of the show, it's about Rue's personal journey with sobriety, and she's not always successful.

9:36In fact, often she's not. That is, I think, the center story of euphoria. And then there's just a whole lot of other stuff happening with the other characters and how they interrelate. Max, did you watch the show from the beginning? Do you remember like it sort of landing on everyone's radar back then? Yeah, I watched the premiere the night it came out and it felt like the next installation in this great history of American raunchy teenage dramas. And yeah, the first two seasons were definitely that. Third season, it feels like it's very removed from where it started. We'll get into that. Yeah, we're going to get into the agony.

10:19This third season. Yeah, I remember this show being so talked about when it came out. Like, because it is, you know, the storylines are quite shocking. My high school experience was nowhere near like this. And it's obviously very, I think, heightened in its storytelling. But it's also such cinematic filmmaking. Like, there's some scenes that are so beautiful when they go to that fair, you know. It's just the way everything is lit. And I think there was a lot of ambition with the visual style of it that I think also really attracted a lot of fans early on. Yeah, the fair episode in the first season was when you realized that HBO spent a fortune on this show.

11:01Yeah. Because you don't see that on high school shows. You just don't see that level of production. I think he's influenced by the British show Skins, Sam, mixed with a bunch of other stuff, like My So-Called Life, in a way. And it had high pedigree. I mean, it was produced by Drake. I mean, we don't know how involved he really was. And also the musician Future. so it just came in with a lot of momentum and then things just exploded from there after the premiere. Yeah, I feel like Skins is a good comparison because it was similarly a sort of shocking teen show and it also had like people that went on to be huge stars like Dev Patel and Nicholas Holt and Daniel Kaluuya.

11:53So though that show I felt like had a much lower budget than this one, But it had a style all its own, I think, in the way they decided to sort of tell it. Another show it reminds me of is Shameless a little bit with a slightly less comedic tone. Yeah. Dealing with a lot of those teenage issues, a lot of moral third rails, and not being afraid to really jump into that. It kind of actually felt very realistic to me when it first came out. I graduated high school in 2012, and there was definitely a lot of serious addiction stuff going on in high school. And a lot of those characters did feel familiar to me.

12:32Yeah, it's funny because I talk to, you know, grown moms now who are like, I can never watch that show because of the fear it would put into me about having teenagers. And I get it, but it's hard to hear that it might be realistic in a lot of ways. But I think, you know, as much as fans loved the show, we should note that critics were pretty mixed on it. You know, I think there was a lot of pushback on how sort of shocking, you know Sam tried to be in some of these storylines and was it just shocking for shocking's sake I guess and so it wasn't like beloved by critics I would say even though it you know did earn some awards Zendaya won two Emmys for her performance no critics dislike this show yeah and actually Zendaya's win for season one was surprising right critics I think immediately found it to be explicit, exploitative.

13:29They commented on this sort of like, it's trying, scared straight elements of the drug use and the partying and the sex. And that to me sort of played into the show's success because it was kind of like for young adults, it was like a naughty thing to watch, right? It played into the mythology of this show because it's like parents just don't understand. Yeah, the second season was like a phenomenon, I think, because they had, you know, really built this fan base by then. The premiere was the strongest HBO Sunday night release since the HBO Max app launched. So like more than White Lotus or Succession and it like broke a bunch of records.

14:17It was an extremely active show on social media. Like, it was the most tweeted about show of the decade at the time, I believe. So by the time season two came around, it was like, this is the show. Do you guys remember, like, what you liked about season two? Or what was your feeling about it? Everything. I mean, season two, listen, it has that insane ending with the school play. Which, you know, makes no sense, right? I mean, the budget for Lexi's school play, like, it's completely insanity. But by season two, it was a true water cooler show. I think this is the most important TV show since Game of Thrones.

15:03in terms of cultural relevancy, in terms of how TV is being watched and how huge the audience was on social media. All the memes, all the, you know, Instagram photos of girls dressing like the various different characters. I don't know if there's another TV show after its second season that has influenced the culture quite as much, for good or bad. Totally. You know, the monoculture is dead at this point. And every single person, though, that I know is talking about this show, whether they hate it or love it. Right. And, like, especially with this season, like, a lot of people are really frustrated.

15:49It seems like a lot of the fans are, like, increasingly frustrated with the show's direction and the character's direction, but everyone is still watching it. And the viewership numbers are showing that. Yeah, I think that's totally true. I think, you know, when I look at the critical reception to it and the sort of critiques of it, I think I would have probably agreed with sometimes it would feel like, are you just pushing for the sake of pushing or is this exploitative? except the performances were so authentic and vulnerable. Like you were just watching actors deliver these incredible performances and they were actors you didn't know before this show mostly.

16:32And I think that sort of allowed the show, you know, even if I would find things that I think, maybe not like because the performances were so good, I forgave anything that made me maybe pause for a second. Yeah, I have two things for that. Is the show pervy? Yes. There's no question. It's over the top. But at the center of the show, Rue's journey is incredibly heartfelt. And it's a beautiful performance that she gives. because she is a world-class fuck-up. I mean, she's a good person, but when she wants to get her hands on drugs, she'll do anything. And in that episode in season two where they're chasing her around the city and her mom catches her, and that's when she reveals that Cassie is sleeping with Nate in that scene that has been clipped over and over and over again on social media, there's a ton of heart to that.

17:40Like, that struggle of addiction feels real. And it probably feels real because, you know, as we know, Sam Levinson struggled with his own addiction issues. That plus everything in high school is just heightened. Right. Like, your emotions in high school are out of control. Like, you're completely not in control of your own body because you're completely insane. You're hormonal. You're everything. And so I forgive the, you know, overwroughtness because I think high school just can be like that. Plus, as you said, Rebecca, the cast. Yeah. And another character, you know, Hunter Schaefer's character is so three-dimensional.

18:27And there's a lot of criticism online about Sam Levinson writing about communities that he has no direct connection to. But he really has created fully three-dimensional characters that audiences obviously love. We're going to take a break. When we get back, how Euphoria's cast and creator made the show such a hit. And what might have happened behind the scenes. Stick with us.

19:03Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, the Global Fashion News and Features Director and co-host of Vogue's podcast, The Run-Through. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all-access pass to the world of Vogue with the latest fashion news and the most exciting voices in the industry. On Tuesdays, join me to hear interviews with influential leaders in the industry like Calvin Klein, Daniel Roseberry, and Jonathan Anderson. On Thursdays, join Head of Editorial Content at Vogue, Chloe Mao, and Head of Editorial Content at British Vogue, Chomenadi, as they explore style and culture through the lens of fashion with guests like Martha Stewart, Kamala Harris, and Tracee Ellis Ross.

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21:35Welcome back to Little Gold Men. So one of the things that has made Euphoria so storied is all the people involved. I mean, this cast is insane when we look at the careers that they now have. I mean, it really, I can't think of a show that birthed this many movie stars, essentially, by this point. Yeah, I mean, let's just go down the list. So, he develops the show with Zendaya. She, as we had discussed, Disney star, relatively famous. This show definitely made her a big name. Jacob Elordi was in this Netflix series slash movie, The Kissing Booth, which has its fans, but is very, very YA. Sydney Sweeney, another working kid actor.

22:25Then Maude Apatow, Nepo Baby, and Alexa Demme was a total find. And then, of course, Hunter Schaefer. And also Barbie Ferreira, who was just like a model on the street. on the street. She was working for American Apparel. Yeah, no, no, no. Actually, I had interviewed Jennifer Vendetti. She was the first casting director on Euphoria. So she did the initial casting of the main characters. She also discovered Angus Cloud, who played Fez. He was a major character on the first two seasons. It's a murderer's row. I mean, these are the biggest young stars working today. Totally. I love the connection to the 1927 Yankees lineup, the murderer's row.

23:10Max, we don't usually have a sports-referencing person on this podcast, so we're glad you're here. It's interesting to look at their careers now because I think for a lot of these people, it proved their abilities as a grown-up actor, and then they went on to make really smart choices after this. I guess we should talk about Sam Levinson because I remember when the show, you know, the first couple seasons, the way these actors talked about him was like he was the second coming or, you know, he was the biggest creative genius to ever walk the land. Well, they talked about him like he was a cult leader.

23:46We're underplaying. There was a lot of criticism waged at this show the first two seasons. and the cast also did a lot of press because they were, you know, on their way to become stars. And they were asked constantly about the sexuality and do you feel safe on the set? And over and over, you heard the terms, you know, I trust Sam implicitly. I mean, Zendaya, in an interview in 2019, goes, he's fucking brilliant. It's very rare that we are not on the same page. Similarly, Sidney Sweeney, Jacob Elordi, they're kind of like the way they discuss the making of the show. And we should discuss the making of the show because each season was a complete and total shit show, it sounds.

24:36Like, there's a lot of rewriting on the set. They refilmed a lot. It's very complicated. It's shot on film. It's expensive. You don't hear a peep from the cast or one complaint. about the process. And then towards the end, we start to hear like our first deflector of Sam with Barbie Ferrer. Max, do you want to talk about that? Yeah, I mean, but even her, she went on Dax Shepard's podcast shortly after they announced that she wasn't going to be on the show for season three. And she was talking about how it was a mutual decision to leave the show. She dismissed rumors that like she walked off the set or that she had strong disagreements with Sam Levinson.

25:20And she was essentially saying that like they came to a mutual decision that there wasn't a good place for Barbie's character to go and that they wouldn't do the character justice so that she left the show. And it was like as magnanimous of an exit that she probably could have given, given like all of the noise that was surrounding her exit. Yeah, that's a good point because I tried to look back at sort of what she had said on the record and, you know, it was sort of other reporting that had painted this picture and she was pretty gracious about how it ended. But then, you know, you hear about what happened on The Idol and there was a lot of reporting that came out about the set being sort of toxic and the challenges of making that.

26:04And it starts to add up, I think, is what happens. You know, it creates a different narrative. But again on The Idol, so The Idol was a show that legitimately was reshot, right? Right. Like, I mean, there was a full version that we'll never by Amy Simons, and then Sam Levinson reshot it. That Cannes press conference, they're all sitting there and they're just talking about how much they love them. Lily Rose Depp still, you know, hasn't said anything negative. There was stuff from the crew being like, this was an absolute hell of a set. And there has been stuff from the crew of Euphoria always as well.

26:45The Hours are crazy, reshoots, all of that. But again, he has a real hold on the creatives and the cast in a way that harkens back, I think, to like, you know, the David Chase era. Like, they are just all in on his vision. Totally. And even with a lot of the criticism about how much nudity there is, and there have been some examples of some of the actors talking about conversations that they had with Sam Levinson about perhaps showing less of themselves on screen, but none of them talk about it in a particularly negative light. Like, Sidney Sweeney brought that up in one example as a way to show, like, how much Sam actually values their input.

27:34And granted, like, you know, it does sound rude to show up without a shot list and to be wasting people's time. But I think you're right. Like, everyone is fully bought into his creative vision. It's interesting because I feel like throughout my career, you hear about the permission creative geniuses are given to be difficult, you know? I mean, there's plenty of film directors who are supposedly difficult to work with, especially with men. It's sort of allowed. But I think that has changed a lot in the modern era. But Sam seems to sort of fall into that group of like, well, he changed every word of the script on set, but he's a genius.