The End of Late Night as We Know It

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2:14Hello and welcome to Little Gold Men, Benny Farr's podcast for film, TV, and awards lovers. I'm Rebecca Ford. And I'm John Ross. John, we've been talking a lot about Cannes lately, and we're going to do a little bit more about that now. Do you want to brag? I do. You should brag. You should. Fjord won the Palm, the top prize, which I had said at least out loud once during a Cannes podcast. So I'm taking credit for that win, which I think was a great winner for the Palm. How did you feel about it? Well, it's my favorite thing I saw at the festival. So, yeah. I will say we missed some stuff at the end.

2:54I missed Minotaur, which you saw. And the Black Ball seems to have been quite a sensation that we both weren't able to see. And Minotaur won second place at the Grand Prix. And the Black Ball won Best Director along with Fatherland. So there were a lot of double wins this time around. Right. Well, you also had another prediction that came true, which was for Best Actress. Yeah, I was hoping you'd say that out loud just to give me the credit. Well, I'm going to start. I have to brag just very quickly about myself before we get into it. Yes, so those are the two lead actresses in All of a Sudden, Virginie Efira and Tao Okamoto, were really great in their performances.

3:35They have to speak English and French and Japanese, and it's a very dialogue-heavy three-hour movie, and they really delivered. What did you want to show off about John? Well, it's not Cannes related, but if you remember when we were doing our Oscar predictions way too early, I said, I think Netflix is going to release Cliff Booth, the David Fincher, Brad Pitt, Quentin Tarantino written film in theaters. And they are. They are taking the IMAX screens that were previously being held by Narnia, which moved to February of 2027. So it is getting a 14-day IMAX theatrical run. What can I say when you're right, you're right.

4:18And you know how it feels, Rebecca. You know how it feels to know something and be right about something. So this week, we're just on a roll. Did you feel like anything got snubbed, John, that you felt like deserved an award? No. Before we jump to the rest of the episode, I will say that I think Director Park had the biggest win because he made like the funniest joke at the press conference that happens after the winners are announced where he said he didn't want to give anyone the palm because he himself has never won, but he had no other choice. I was just like, I love you. I love, I love a reference like that.

4:56So he seemed like a great jury president. It sounds like it was all very smooth of a process. So he's a big winner in my book.

5:07Today on the show, we wanted to talk a bit about a genre of television that many, many people care deeply about, the late night show. The Late Show with Stephen Colbert aired its final episode last week, and there's no new host coming in. The Late Show is going away entirely. Audience numbers for all the late night shows have declined dramatically over the past 10 to 15 years. And at the same time, we've seen a big spike in shows built for YouTube or social that are doing similar things when it comes to comedy and celebrity interviews. Think Hot Ones or Chicken Shop Date, the list goes on and on.

5:42So to help us unpack the end of one era and maybe the beginning of another, we're joined by Vanity Fair special correspondent Joy Press. Hi, Joy. Hi, gang. So happy to have you, Joy. We're going to start with Colbert's last show, which we all got to watch. And Joy, you wrote a really beautiful review about it that I encourage everyone to read at VanityFair.com. But Joy, maybe you could give us a little background on why The Late Show was canceled and what has been going on here. What a story. So back in July, Colbert announced that CBS was canceling his show. The final episode, of course, was last Thursday.

6:25He'd been hosting it for almost 11 years. And the network claimed it was purely a financial decision, which caused a lot of skepticism because the timing was a little bit weird. CBS's parent company, Paramount, was at that point closing a multimillion dollar merger with David Ellison's studio, Skydance. And they needed approval from the FCC, Trump's administration. And, you know, Colbert also said that CBS had been really eager to nail down a contract before that. And then you add to that, like Trump kind of regularly taunting Colbert on social media. and it all felt like a very kind of bad precedent, you know, an attack on media freedoms.

7:10I mean, just kind of an attack on a mainstay of American television, especially when shortly after that, the FCC threatened to take action against Jimmy Kimmel for another political monologue that they did not like. Yeah, the timing was very suspect. I think everyone's very aware of how that seemed, at least to someone like me, pretty obvious. and so sad. I mean, you could argue that the show is a financial burden, but if you're going to have network broadcasting, this is one of the anchors of network broadcasting. He is one of the main faces of CBS. And, you know, I think the announcement that they were going to cancel his show only made his ring skyrocket.

7:56Yes. So the thing that I felt like was pretty significant is he's had at least a long runway to say goodbye. Like he's been doing sort of special moments in his shows leading up to this. But as someone who doesn't regularly watch Late Night, but did watch obviously the final episode, I thought it was really beautifully done. What did you two think? Yeah, I mean, I think it's really hard to end a show like that. And I think he, you know, he had a great run of guests, but he pretty much did what he does best. I mean, certainly the last couple of weeks, He had, you know, this mix of political and topical commentary.

8:34He did not hold back. His last regular interview was Paul McCartney, which was quite a great guest to go out on. And then, you know, he reminded us of all his wacky hijinks, you know, kind of the legacy of Letterman and Conan, you know, he threw stuff off the roof with Letterman. And I think the stuff that I really loved was, you know, he did a bunch of segments with his fellow talk show hosts. And that was both really funny and really heartfelt. And they saw him off with a segment in which a wormhole sort of comes to devour all of late night television as we know it. So I kind of couldn't have gone out in a better way.

9:16But how many times have you watched a full episode of a late night show? Not clips online, but a full episode. Because I can tell you, watching a full episode, I was thinking that this format is not as modern as it once was. I thought it was a good final episode. But I did think watching it that for this format to continue, it will need some sort of great upheaval. Well, that's what I liked about your piece, Joy, was that you were talking about the bigger picture of that and why this format may be, you know, becoming extinct along with Colbert, which I thought was a really smart take about it.

10:09Yeah, I mean, I don't think that most people watch television that way anymore. And I do think these talk shows, along with SNL, are often viewed in much larger numbers on YouTube via clips and TikTok and everything else. I mean, I think the monoculture is gone and the way that we watch television has changed. Absolutely. And I don't watch a lot of these shows straight through. And honestly, I think most people have very short attention spans for this kind of television. When we were researching this episode, I was looking back at a piece that Joe Hagen did for Vanity Fair with Colbert. It was right before Biden was going to be elected.

10:52Like, I think the night of is when he talked to him. And so it talked about how Colbert and these other hosts had gotten us through Trump's first term and the pandemic. and it felt very hopeful, but it was such a beautiful moment in time to capture because I do think even then people were maybe leaning on these hosts in a way that is different than now and that it's only been a few years. But anyone who can reread that piece, I thought it was really beautifully done and looked back on Colbert's career in a way that I found even more interesting now that we know this is ending. I mean, I think generationally, you know, you still have an older audience who finds this really comforting to watch at bedtime.

11:35But most people just don't watch television that way anymore. Do you think that this is a good business decision for CBS? I mean, I think we all agree something's fishy with the timing. And they are pretty adamant that this is strictly business and that the cost of producing the show was not worth it versus what they were getting from advertisers. Colbert and others are pretty adamant on the other side saying that it was still profitable where do those advertisers though go I guess is what I think of when I think of like this situation is this there's so few things that are live that are daily where advertisers can put their money.

12:28And it's interesting, the week that Colbert's last episode airs, Netflix announces that they're doing a daily show with Charlemagne Tha God, which I think is probably creative, but also advertiser-driven because they now sell ads on Netflix. And you need content and space for those ads. And so I wonder where this will go for NBC with Jimmy Fallon and ABC with Kimmel. I'm not a network accounting executive, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. But, you know, it seems to me that networks days may be limited, but as long as networks exist, it is useful for them to have a Colbert or Kimmel or Fallon as their face of late night and as a place that draws a bigger, consistent audience and that advertisers can come to.

13:30What makes me worried or curious is what happens to the rest of these shows. I mean, I guess we should talk a little bit about what happened at Kimmel because, I mean, he references in that Black Hole skit that there were like three days where he also was maybe going to be taken off the air permanently, but obviously came back. And then there have been new threats against his show pretty recently. So what do you guys think? Does this feel like the first in sort of a domino effect? I mean, I think Trump very much has his eyes on Kimmel now in a way that feels like concerning. Yes, although I have to admit credit to Josh DeMauro, who's the new head of Disney.

14:13He's like, we're not blinking on this. Yeah. And what happened the last time when, you know, the local stations refused to carry Kimmel for those couple of days while they figured it out, that has not happened in this particular case. He is still, you know, on air despite Trump's complaining and the FCC claiming that they're going to be looking at all of the various different carriage deals. So that gives me a little bit of hope. Yeah, it feels like they maybe learned a lot from that first snafu. Well, and Disney has had a lot of scuffles already. I mean, they've already been faced with a slippery slope.

14:55And I think they have decided that they are going to stand their ground because this is the first of many, potentially. So if Jimmy Kimmel goes for the same reason, then it feels like all is lost. Not to be overdramatic. What a lot of pressure on him. No, no, I... I agree. The end of society is on your back. If Jimmy Kimmel goes, it'll be a huge impact on freedom of speech. But when you look at, you know, what CBS has done is they basically decided not to replace Colbert at all. And in that slot, they've leased the space to Byron Allen and a comedy show. So basically they've chosen to secede from that space altogether.

15:46Yeah. It just seems very short-sighted. You know, like I just, Colbert is going to be okay. He's writing a Lord of the Rings TV series. Yeah, he's writing a Lord of the Rings. I have no doubt that he'll finally get to do his dream of being on Broadway in a musical. Because do you guys know that about him? Yeah, he's a big musical singer guy. And he'll get to do that. I mean, he's going to be okay. If he wants to do a YouTube show, I think it'll be a big hit. Oh, yeah. I mean, sure. But there is, you know, a huge financial implication for all the people that work on his show. These are steady jobs.

16:27There's a lot of them. There's a lot of people working on them. I mean, just hearing him when he's given interviews, he was really most hurt by that. that they are going to put something like over 300 people out of work who have been working on this show for a very long time. And one of the things that people said to me beyond just the people who work behind the scenes at Late Night is that Late Night has traditionally been a really important platform for upcoming talent, comedy talent. And it is really the first step in this sort of entertainment ladder that is going to disappear if late night goes away.

17:10I always noticed how massive the staff is on these shows when at the Emmys, a lot of these shows bring out their entire teams to sit in the sort of upper balcony. And it's incredible how many people work for these shows and are passionate about these shows and the talent of the writers who work on them. And you don't realize the amount of people behind making those moments work that now are going to be looking for a job in an industry that is really struggling in the first place. So there's a lot to be sad about about this ending. And I think it's really beautiful how he made it a very, like, uplifting final episode.

17:47But we can still feel very sad that it's over. Yeah, and in regards to, like, what we think will happen to Kimmel and Fallon and Seth Myers, I have to believe, actually, Fallon and Seth Myers have a little bit of an edge in that they have Lorne Michaels. And regardless of what anyone says about SNL, SNL is still one of the most important network programs you could have. And it still manages to be culturally relevant week over week. So I think that they will be able to ride out this storm. Well, we should talk a little bit about the Emmys because Colbert won last year, you know, because his cancellation was announced.

18:37Was it right ahead of voting? The timing was like... Right ahead. Yeah, very specific. So he won last year. I could definitely see him winning this category again. I don't know what you guys think, but it feels like that's probably what will happen. But there is a twist in that the category is changing in a sort of wonky way that I tried to understand. Okay, explain it to me. I can understand it. I don't, you know me, I only want one rule change for the Emmys this year, which was to allow them to have heated rivalry participate. They didn't listen to me. And now they're doing, what's the change?

19:17Explain it to us like we're five. Yeah. So, basically, the Academy is merging Outstanding Talk Series and Outstanding Scripted Variety Series, which had been separate categories. And this needed to be fixed because essentially these two categories had like two to three nominees. And John Oliver had been winning one category since he was moved from the other to that one. And then John Oliver has been winning an Emmy since he was a twinkle in his mother eye. They were giving him an Emmy. So they're combining them again, which I think is fine. But that is not the weirdest part of this. It's that they're changing it to an, quote, area award, which means each nominee will be individually judged and Emmy voters will have to answer the question, does this nominee merit an Emmy, yes or no?

20:12And if 90 % say yes, then that nominee gets an Emmy. So there could be multiple winners in this category. or if none of them get to 90%, whichever show gets the most yeses wins the Emmy. So I just, I can't, like there's a way - Wait, and is SNL in here now too? Yes, so there's a way SNL could win, Colbert, John Oliver could all win an Emmy. We're all winners here is basically what could happen because don't you think 90 % of people would say SNL should win an Emmy and Colbert should win an Emmy? Not 90 for SNL necessarily. And Colbert, I think given – I mean, I think people are furious about this decision that CBS made coupled with people losing their job.

21:03You know, all of it. So I think 90 percent is pretty high. You're right. In such a big voting group that is quite high. But also, like, Kimmel has gone through it, you know, and hasn't won this Emmy. Like, if we're just handing out the Emmys, like, there's a lot in this group that deserve it. So I don't – I don't – Well, and this year there are quite a few that, you know, it would be a symbolic move for people to do that. And you could just imagine Trump's social media that night if they all win. Ultimately, if it benefits Colbert and Kimmel and some of these others and we get some good speeches on the stage, that would be worth it.

21:40I'm not understanding this is necessarily the way to get there. I think we should go ahead and take a break. And when we get back, where does late night go from here? Stay with us.

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22:58Welcome back to Little Gold Men. A few months ago, Vanity Fair had a package that we called The New Late Night, featuring the hosts of these new digital shows. And Joy, you wrote the feature for us. Can you talk a little bit about some of the hosts and shows you profiled? I wrote about a whole array of online talk shows. Most of the shows have some kind of a theme or a gimmick to get guests to open up. They usually have very high-profile guests. Their hosts, they have between 2 and 30 million followers online. So, you know, they are or have become very substantial influencers. I mean, I think the granddaddy of it all was Sean Evans in Hot Ones, where he interviews people over, you know, spicy wings.

23:46You know, we have Brittany Broski, her royal court. She interviews guests over medieval, you know, wearing medieval clothes and kind of quizzes them. I mean, you have somebody like Kareem Rama with Subway Takes, where, I mean, he has a range of kind of ordinary people and celebrities, you know, doing kind of hot takes. And politicians and, you know, anthropologists. I mean, you know, a whole array of people who are giving a counterintuitive hot take while on the subway with everything, the heat and smell and interruptions that that brings. So, you know, they all have their own little space that allows them to sort of bring a new twist to the idea of the talk show.

24:35They're not generally not variety shows in the way that, you know, a Colbert show was. They are usually a lot more focused on having fun with guests. Yeah. I mean, they focus primarily on the interview portion. Las Culturistas has a mix of what I would call like a version of a Wendy Williams. Jake Shane's podcast a little bit is similar. Like he has his friends on and they sometimes sort of, they talk a lot about their personal like lives. But then they'll sort of get into like the, what I would call like quote unquote hot topics of the week. But the rest are pretty focused on the celebrity interview, which is a huge part of late night.

25:25And I think they're very different than the celebrity interview that you get from late night. Well, you know, all the shows in some way or other interview celebrities, whether that's internet celebrities or, you know, movie stars. But other than Z-Way's show, you'd be an iconic guest. none of them really have any kind of confrontation or pushing the way that a late night show might. You know, Z-Way is sort of known for really kind of sticking the knife in and putting her guests up against the wall in a great way, in an iconic way. But, you know, other than that, I think almost everyone that I talked to really saw their role as, you know, it was fun.

26:08It was about positivity. It was about creating a positive space. And that, I think, is somewhat different. Not that late night hosts go out to skewer their guests, but it feels much more journalistic to some degree. And, you know, Sean Evans actually started out as a journalist, but pretty much all of the others come from a completely different space and they do not see themselves as journalists in any way. And they will let you know. They will let you know. And, I mean, Jake Shane often has his friends on. Other people become friends with their guests. You know, Amelia de Moldenburg on Chicken Shop Date, the whole idea is that they're on a date.

26:47Now, she does sometimes make people squirm, but the show does not go out of its way to make someone look bad. It's almost someone described it as a joint collaboration. They see it as a performance between two people as opposed to trying to get information or trying to put somebody under a microscope. I mean, they're very entertaining. I watch clips of them all the time. I wouldn't say I've sat through an entire quote unquote episode of most of these, but I can see why publicists like doing them, right? Because you know, you're not going to get hard questions and you get to reveal a little bit of this actor's fun personality without having, you know, them to step into anything personal they don't want to talk about.