The Tragic, Delicate Queer Love Story of The History of Sound

12:17Richard Lawson:It also sounds a lot like the ending of the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes by Suzanne Collins.

12:22Ben Shattuck:And at Cannes, Paul Meskel did embrace that comparison. He was very popular.

12:26Richard Lawson:Slightly more down market. Sorry, Ben Shattuck.

12:31Hillary Busis:The story takes a turn a bit abruptly, and that's very much the intention and the way it's written, when after the summer they spend together, they go their separate ways again. Lionel learns that shortly after the last day they spent together that David had taken his own life. And you have the story and the narrative speeding up a little bit going through the years as Lionel is catching up to this revelation. There's a really lovely final note that reveals that David had left him essentially a goodbye message that speaks to the connection that lasted between them. What did you guys make of that, fair to call it a plot turn, and the way that the story ends?

13:18Richard Lawson:I was very moved by the actual ending by Lionel listening to this message from beyond the grave. As I was reading it, I was thinking that when they get to this scene in the movie, whether I like it or not, I will be crying.

13:31Hillary Busis:Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the movie. We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll explore how the adaptation turned out. Stay with us.

13:53Hillary Busis:Welcome back to Little Gold Men from Vanity Fair. We are in the midst of our first Summer Book Club episode on the history of sound. We just talked about the short story written by Ben Shattuck. And now we're going to talk about the film adaptation directed by Oliver Hermanis, starring Paul Meskel and Josh O 'Connor. Hilary, as someone who has not seen the movie, I'm just generally curious to start coming out of the story. What big question you had about what a film adaptation would look like?

14:19Richard Lawson:The first question that I had was answered by the first look that you wrote, David, which I think that because word of this project kind of started percolating online after everybody already knew about Challengers, I think there was an expectation that this was going to be a sex-heavy movie. And that is not the case, is my understanding. Yes?

14:40Ben Shattuck:No. There's one brief shot, basically, of the two of them in the aforementioned tent. There's a line in the story about them bathing in the river and then, you know, having a little alfresco fun afterward. and I was like, well, that's not in the movie. Cheated. And, you know, Oliver Hermanis, the director, he has said that he kept that at a remove deliberately to kind of retrain our focus elsewhere. And I understand the sort of intention there. I do think, though, that he then needed to tease out some other aspects of the relationship or just the moments when they were together because the film can at times feel too withholding.

15:18Ben Shattuck:It's almost like it's too aloof and it gets a little frustrating in parts because of that. I found after reading the story a new appreciation for some of the choices that

15:29Hillary Busis:the film made. For instance, the sex scene, if we even want to call it that, in the story, their first encounter is so brief. And you have the next day, Lionel waking up in David's apartment by himself. And there's just a couple sentences in the story. And in the film, it's a whole sequence and there's a real intimacy and almost erotic quality to Lionel walking around his apartment. And Oliver Hermanis had told me that was a big focus for him, that to him that was the sex scene. It was just seeing Lionel in his space, this level of comfort, this level of intrigue. And so there were little touches like that in the film that I think enhanced those very brief details, those very small indications of what these men were coming to mean to each other.

16:19Hillary Busis:It's difficult to do, and it's something that I think if you don't have the story in mind, you might not notice all of those touches. But I definitely gathered them a little bit more clearly after reading it.

16:32Richard Lawson:And reading it, I also almost felt like you could have cast either Josh O 'Connor or Paul Meskel in either role, and it still would have worked. I don't know if you guys share that, but I don't know. I almost would want to see, like, the true West version where they switch parts.

16:48Ben Shattuck:Or the little foxes.

16:50Hillary Busis:The little foxes, I was going to say.

16:51Richard Lawson:Maybe that's more accurate.

16:52Ben Shattuck:Yeah, that's interesting because in the film, I mean, Meskel's great. He can do that sort of sad-eyed yearning very well.

17:00Hillary Busis:He plays Lionel to be clear, yeah.

17:02Ben Shattuck:Oh, yes, yeah. But it's Josh O 'Connor as David, which the character is pretty dynamic in the story, in a very restrained story. But just the way he writes that letter, inviting him on the trip, the final recording, there's a wit to him, a sort of melancholy wit. and Josh O 'Connor teases that out so well. And you're right to point out, David, that that sequence, the first sort of seduction sequence, O 'Connor sells entirely why Lionel would be like pretty much instantly head over heels for this guy.

17:31Hillary Busis:I think at the very beginning as those two actors were circling the project, there was no clarification on who would play what part. At a certain point, Hermanus felt pretty dead set on Paul Meskel playing Lionel and Meskel was actually a bit reluctant just in terms of, at that point, carrying a movie, but also perhaps playing a character that was a little bit closer to other characters he'd played. But yeah, I think that that was kind of the whole game was these are two great actors who could conceivably fill either of these roles. So it is interesting they went in the direction they did.

18:06Richard Lawson:I guess another question I wanted to ask was, I mean, this is very much a two-hander. It's very much a romance between two people. They do encounter other people in the story, But I was wondering kind of who else makes an impression in the movie beyond Bill Connor and Mezcal. So I think what's interesting is you hear Chris Cooper narrating the film right from the start, and he's playing older Lionel.

18:33Hillary Busis:I don't think you have any awareness or knowledge of whether he'll actually appear as he is more obviously present in the story.

18:40Richard Lawson:It's not a flashback as it is in the story. Not initially.

18:45Hillary Busis:But reviews have noted, so I think it's fair game to say that he does appear at the end of the film. The story catches up in the same way that it does in the original story. And that, to me, was where it really came together. It's not a lot of screen time, but his performance is so powerful. And the way he reads that prose is beautiful. and it plays against this really heavy score. I think the movie rightly emphasizes the music and tries to bring that alive in your experience watching the movie is what these men were hearing and what they were experiencing. That's where it really came together was in Chris Cooper bringing this character full circle.

19:30Ben Shattuck:I feel like I haven't seen Chris Cooper in a lot recently and so it's both a surprise, at least before you read the story, that you're going to meet Lionel as an older person but also that it's Chris Cooper and I don't know that I've seen Chris Cooper play a queer character before. I thought that was interesting. What about American Beauty? Oh, gosh. I was going to say. Well, I don't know if I count that murderer. Spoiler alert for American Beauty. Spoiler alert. But also, you know, it's a good reminder that, you know, Paul Meskell does a good job, I think, of playing this guy from the sort of hollers of, I think it's West Virginia, right?

20:01Ben Shattuck:And Chris Cooper has that same sort of like mix of folksiness with a sort of more, you know, sophisticated urbanity. Like, it's a good balance. And I think he's perfect casting in that regard as a sort of soulful, sad, thoughtful person who has spent a lot of time, you know, lost in his own thoughts. Chris Cooper is, you know, a good performer for that kind of thing.

20:23Richard Lawson:Oh, now I'm really jazzed to see him at the end. And so you hear the narration but don't know who he is? Is that how it works?

20:29Hillary Busis:You know it's him. You just don't. It's just purely him narrating over scenes of Paul Meskel and Josh O 'Connor. So you don't necessarily know that he's going to physically appear. or that the story will be jumping forward in time as it does. It could just be sort of...

20:44Richard Lawson:His memories. Yeah, exactly.

20:46Ben Shattuck:Am I remembering correctly, David? The voiceover isn't like heavy, heavy in there. It's there, but it's not like... He's not basically reading the whole short story over the...

20:55Hillary Busis:No, not at all. I mean, you hear him right at the beginning. So that's why I meant to say like Chris Cooper is the first voice you hear in the whole movie. And there are some lines from the story, just reading it that I noticed were in the movie line for line. Like at one point, Lionel reflects, my grandfather once said that happiness isn't a story so there isn't much to say about those first weeks. When they were collecting songs, that's a line that you hear Chris Cooper say that is also in the story. So that does happen from time to time but most of the prose is done away with. Yeah.

21:31Ben Shattuck:And a lot of what's narrated in the story in the film becomes more literal. something that Ben Shattuck talked to Hillary and I about, but like Lionel briefly mentions in the story that he went to Italy for a time. We actually, the movie does go to Italy briefly. So they do pad out the film where I guess just narration wouldn't really make it as cinematic.

21:51Hillary Busis:You do make a good point, Richard, that the film really opens up in a way that the story quite deliberately does not. And again, Ben Shattuck wrote both the story and the screenplay, so these choices are intentional on both ends. But in the story, once the time that David and Lionel spend together ends, we're approaching the end of the story pretty quickly. The film, that is not the case. We are really meant to sit with the absence of David and Lionel's life as Lionel goes on to live his own life. and some narrative changes are made that I'm still thinking about now that I've read the story. I'm not sure how I feel about them that clearly are meant to give the story some scope, also just meant to make certain scenes that are more immediate in the story feel more drawn out, cinematic.

22:43Hillary Busis:It's where you feel the adaptation most is once they are separated.

22:48Ben Shattuck:Yeah, I'm eager to rewatch the movie now that I've read the story And I think, like you said earlier, David, that I did come to appreciate more of that restraint in seeing Shattuck's original text and understanding and talking to him and understanding a bit more about the perspective that everything is coming from. So there is, I think if people are a little bit like, oh, the reception at Cannes wasn't that rapturous, I still think there's a lot to savor in the movie and a lot for people to look forward to.

23:16Richard Lawson:Do you think it succeeds as an adaptation? Yeah.

23:19Ben Shattuck:You know, there's that kind of adage about, like, short stories are good to be adapted to films and novels should be miniseries, you know? I think this is a good example of that, where there is plenty to fill this movie in just a few spare pages of text.

23:32Hillary Busis:Yeah, I completely agree. You feel choices being made, choices that can be made without sacrificing what the story is. So it feels very much like its own thing and builds on scenes, set pieces, experiences in a way that I found really satisfying in the movie. And again, I do think that these two work well in concert with each other. And I would recommend anyone who's planning on seeing the movie to read the story and vice versa.

23:59Richard Lawson:It doesn't take very long, if that is a concern. If time is a concern.

24:02Hillary Busis:Yes. This was like our little appetizer for Summer Book Club. This is a very quick read. It's a really lovely piece of writing. So highly recommend.

24:12Ben Shattuck:Yeah.

24:13Hillary Busis:Well, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we will have Hilary and Richard's conversation with the author of the story and screenwriter of the film himself, Ben Shattuck. Stay with us.

24:36Ben Shattuck:welcome back to little gold men from vanity fair we've been discussing the history of sound and now we are joined by the author of that story and the book of the same title ben shattuck ben thanks for being here thanks it's great to be here so first off i'd love to know just what the inspiration for this story was. I mean, it's set in a very specific time and place and about a particular tradition of art. So all of those specifics, I'm curious how those gathered together for you.

25:02David Canfield:Well, you know, when I was back at a graduate program for writing, I always was trying to write snappy, contemporary, Sally Rooney-like fiction. But by page two, somebody would be picking up a lantern and walking to a horse. So I just eventually accepted my role as a writer who enjoyed historical fiction. And I think in part that's because I grew up in a town that feels like it's stuck in the past. You know, I grew up going to contradances twice a summer. I played a banjo.

25:32Richard Lawson:Sorry to interrupt. What is a contradance?

25:34David Canfield:No, you might know like, you know, do-si-do, all men left, all men right, like popularized in Appalachia and New England. And it was kind of like speed dating in a way. In the 19th century, you trade partners and you spin around. and there's fiddle players and it's just sort of foot stomping, bond dancing. You know, I went to a Quaker-based elementary school and learned sea shanties before I learned Christmas carols. I duck hunted all through my youth and dug clams and fish and all that. So there's so many trappings of my youth that felt historical. So I guess it's like a broad lens. And I always start a story with an artifact something sort of seems like a dream object and when I read about Thomas Edison's wax cylinder it felt like one of those dream objects that a story could grow from I found out that it was as in the short story The History of Sound it was the first invention that worked from the moment Edison thought about it as if he received a transmission from God that sound could be recorded if he just let the vibrations move down the stylus into a soft substance And so I thought that was a brilliant short story.

26:48David Canfield:And I just combined those elements of old music, a tradition of how I grew up, and this really snappy, enchanting invention in which voices from the deep past could be brought to present day.

27:03Richard Lawson:And so The History of Sound is the opening story of your story collection. It's also the title story. Why did the history of sound seem like the best centerpiece, I guess, for what you were trying to achieve with that collection?

27:17David Canfield:Well, The History of Sound is in the story. And as the title, it's a sentence fragment, the full sentence, which is The History of Sound Lost Daily. And that is one character lamenting the fact that all the greatest sounds in his life were left uncaptured. The sound of, well, you could extend this to anybody. The first time your partner said, I love you. The sound of your dad's voice if he's passed away. The sound of your best friend calling you. the sound of your mother waking up in the morning, whatever, all of these sounds of your life, they're so special, they just sort of go into the atmosphere and are never captured and you can never experience them again.

27:57David Canfield:And the whole book is built on misunderstandings, things lost, things left unsaid that create plot. A lot of times I think we consider our lives as plots that are made up of the things that happen, like the job you take, the partner you choose, the children you have. the city that you live in. But as I found in exploring the book, oftentimes it's the dark matter of your life, the things that you didn't do, the decisions you didn't make, the regret that stalks you, the ghost life that you never got to live. Those are also equally as important. So it goes back to that title of history of sound, the history of these things that are never captured.

28:38Ben Shattuck:One thing I find really striking about the way this relationship is drawn out in the story is, yes, we are cognizant of the societal prejudices of that time, of 100 years ago. But the characters, both in their own way, seem to think like, that might not be the biggest problem. We could maybe figure something out. I'm curious in the writing, because it is a story about two men in love specifically, do you think that there really was a possibility for them that they kind of missed out on to be together and happy despite the strictures of the time? or do you think the time really would have inevitably kind of torn them apart no matter what they decided to do with themselves?

29:17David Canfield:That's such an interesting question because this whole story hinges on them not being together so it allows for a space for the reader's imagination, what that could look like. And I think most people today would have a general idea of what that would look like 100 years ago. But I guess what I'll say is when I was writing the story, also as Oliver and I were thinking about the adaptation, it really became clear that it was fear or threats or societal pressures were not going to be the turning points in the plot, that it was going to be really specific, really personal. And that I don't think that the happy ending would look like a happy ending in a Bronte novel.

30:00David Canfield:But I think what I set up in the story is there is a way, a place, a time, a possibility, even the slightest possibility. One of the pivotal lines in the story is I should have stayed on the train platform. It's not that he knows the ending, but he at least knows the next step forward, that he feels, as I said in the story, that his life is an inch shorter than it could have been if he just stayed. And who knows where that would have gone, but you can't see the end, but he can only see a few steps ahead. And the few steps ahead that he should have taken was staying on that train platform instead of leaving.

30:38David Canfield:And in terms of the story being about two men, stories also start in scene for me, with an object or in scene. And the scene that began is in a pub in South Boston between two men. And I didn't want to deny a love story, a plot, and a capacity for emotion because it was between two men. And if it had been phrased differently, if the characters had been different, it would have started to become ahistorical. And so accuracy, creating that scene with as much clarity and historical accuracy as possible felt really important. And then just let the story go from there.

31:23Richard Lawson:Did you write at all when you were doing the original prose version? Did you write at all from David's perspective, even as like an exercise? or was it always kind of Lionel's voice primarily in your head?

31:35David Canfield:No, it was always Lionel's voice. And in the end, it became really clear to me that somehow I had gotten to this point where Lionel's character, because he has oral synesthesia, because he is in all ways, he doesn't care about objects, he's free of guilt, he is a little airy, he's like atmospheric, he has a beautiful voice, he's like an air spirit. and he is above the world. And also the story is supposed to take that perspective really high up of a person's entire life. It's like he is a part of the atmosphere. And David, to me, is just really mineral and elemental. He's really brought down to a human level.

32:18David Canfield:He's experienced war. He is crushed by guilt. He has PTSD. he's just dragged down by the anchors of humanity in a way that he can never release himself. And so these two characters are almost polar opposites whereas Lionel is of the air David is almost like deep in a cave. So no, I was always interested in the atmospheric perspective.

32:44Ben Shattuck:There is so much atmosphere in your writing and I'm curious in the adapting of it how did you approach making some of that cinematic and did you have to kind of let some things go and invent new things as you wrote the screenplay?

32:55David Canfield:In writing the screenplay, anybody who will see the film will see that there's elements in the story that are maybe mentioned in one line or half a line or very briefly that just bloom out to full scenes. But in terms of synesthesia, in terms of that atmospheric quality, I think what I'll say is, you know, this is my first screenplay and it's just such a strange accident almost that it ended up where it did. I was sitting at Cannes looking at this film that I wrote. When I first started writing it, I kept calling final draft, final cut, and had no idea how to frame and format a screenplay. I was writing it as if it was a final document, as if it's like, when you write prose or poetry, the document is the thing.

33:50David Canfield:And I didn't really understand how much a director really can shape that a screenplay is as much as an actor is, or the production design or the costume design of the screenplay is an element of that. and I think I was really amazed at how what I put on the page and what comes out in the film or how visuals are framed that you really have to let go as the writer and just let the director follow through with the vision that they have and I think sure there are elements that were hard to imagine and I imagined one way But then when you go to a set and put it on screen and have people saying the words and having, you know, Josh and Paul try to come together in a way that you saw, but the director sees, but the actor sees.

34:47David Canfield:But there's just, it's just like a prismatic interpretation of many parts that I think is just like a great exercise in letting go of control a little bit. Mm-hmm.

34:57Richard Lawson:You mentioned Josh and Paul. Obviously, when you wrote the original story, you probably didn't have faces in mind for the characters, but how did they fit your vision when you heard that they were going to be taking on these roles? What was your reaction?

35:09David Canfield:Oh, it was a dream. I mean, let me think. It was 2020 when I first was put in touch with Oliver and we, you know, pandemic summer. He was in South Africa. I was here in Massachusetts. sits. I was writing scenes and then talking to him. At the time, I think Paul had just come out of Normal People.

35:32Richard Lawson:Yeah, that was pandemic era for sure.

35:34David Canfield:Yeah. I'd seen the Normal People like, my God. I mean, but he wasn't Gladiator. He wasn't After Sun. He wasn't just like the huge Paul Meskel that we know today. And I just always knew from the beginning that he would be perfect for the role. Yeah. And I'm not so sure when And Josh came on because that's more Oliver's realm. But yeah, Paul was the first one attached.

35:56Richard Lawson:It's kind of a tall order. You wrote him this character who has like the most beautiful voice in the world. It feels like a lot to live up to.

36:03David Canfield:Right. Well, there's a thousand, thousand changes that need to happen between a story and a screenplay. And one of those is like when you write Wax Cylinders 1919 in a book, a reader can just imagine that. But now, you know, the props department needs to find exactly what a cylinder 1919 looked like. the writing and all that. And because it takes place in a real world. And what also takes place in a real world is like Paul Mescal has a voice. He has a beautiful singing voice. And also, we've all heard Beyonce and we all know what a huge voice is. And so when I write in this story, this is one of the most beautiful voices anybody has heard.

36:40David Canfield:It's like, okay, well, we need to rethink that a little bit to set viewers' expectations for more of the gift being He has synesthesia, and it's his connection to song. And I think Oliver told me that Paul was really thankful to have the pressure taken off him, that the character would not say, like, that is the most astounding voice I've ever heard.

37:01Ben Shattuck:You've now had the rare opportunity as an author to reinterpret your own work in a different format, then to watch a director take that work and interpret it his own way, and then actors to do it. And now that you're through that whole fascinating process, do you think about the history of sound, the original story that you wrote in a different way? Do you see something new in it that maybe you didn't cross your mind back when you first wrote the story?

37:26David Canfield:Yeah, actually, it's made me think about my writing as a whole a lot differently, especially as I watch things now. And I've thought about tonal plot versus what you could call edgier or chunkier plot. in stories and short stories and prose you can have tonal plot you know like a suggestion of something that makes a character do something but because screenwriting in many ways is really shaved down it's just where the people are and what they're saying and unless you have really heavy voiceover you can never express interiority that fiction allows and the story the short story allowed for really quiet moments to feel really loud.

38:11David Canfield:Small realizations like I should have stayed on that platform or my life isn't quite what it could have been or feelings about guilt. Those are super hard to translate onto the screen. And that's why I understand that a lot of film and TV and anything on the screen needs just edgier, larger plot points. So when I first wrote this story, I thought it was really bright and loud with emotions. And also, finally, when you get to the point where he realizes that he should have been regretting something his whole life that he didn't even know he should have been regretting. And that is like the final knife into the heart of the story.

38:53David Canfield:That takes place way at the end. And it's just a moment that turns the viewer to understand what they've been reading. That felt really big and loud. And then if you just put it out in adaptation, that's a really quiet story. You know, it's really quiet. And so you have to figure out the actors, the director, whoever has to figure out how to turn that story into something really big without like, you know, a dead body showing up in an investigation.

39:22Ben Shattuck:But you maybe do need to go to Italy for a little bit and, you know, have things like that happen. I mean, the good thing, though, is that Oliver is good at quiet. I mean, if people who have seen Living, you know, his previous movie with Bill Nighy. and Moffy and other things that he's made. He's a right match. And so I'm assuming, did he approach your people because he had read the story and wanted to do it?

39:42David Canfield:Yeah, he read the short story. And he said that, I think I'm getting this right, but that he read it in an airport somewhere in the Middle East on a layover. And that he was really moved by the story and called his representation and just said, I want to work with this story. And so we got in touch and I'd seen Moffy and Moffy's remains one of my favorite films ever. And we started thinking about how to frame the story as a film. He was simultaneously working with Ishiguro on living. And so I got a bit of a one-on-one masterclass in screenwriting. There's a draft in which Lionel's in Switzerland that's totally gone.

40:26David Canfield:And he was on a ridgeline and it started snowing. And Oliver said, this is a good scene. I like how it's phrased. blah blah blah. But snow is really expensive when you change the weather. I just thought, oh my gosh, I've never thought about dollar signs.

40:41Richard Lawson:Yeah, can he go to Atlanta, maybe? Can he go to Vancouver? Yeah, exactly.

40:46David Canfield:What if we set this story in New Jersey? And yeah, I did have to rewrite the seasons, you know, because of actors' schedules. You know, the original took place in the summer, and then that took place in the winter, and then we have to reframe when the, you know, So all those practical considerations were really new and bizarre to me. But Oliver was a great guide in all of that.

41:09Richard Lawson:Was the first time you saw the film at Cannes, or did you see it before then?

41:13David Canfield:I saw a director's cut, but it didn't have all the sound and all the mixing, nothing like that. But yeah, I hadn't seen it until sitting down at Cannes. And as anybody knows, Cannes is a pretty wild experience.

41:29Ben Shattuck:Cannes is unique among all the festivals. You know, they really treat those premieres with a lot of pomp and circumstance. But I would imagine that mostly feels exciting and maybe just a little bit less overwhelming. I don't know. What was your experience?

41:44David Canfield:Yeah. I don't know. You know, like, I'm a writer. My happiest place is in a very quiet room with a computer screen in front of me.

41:53Ben Shattuck:But in a tuxedo when you're in that quiet room, right?

41:56David Canfield:I always, I'm in a tuxedo. And I wear like a hat with a big ostrich feather in it. Yeah, what am I, a farmer? Yeah, it was really good. And also the amount of attention that I felt and having your work. I mean, anybody who knows this who has crossed over from fiction to film has experienced this. It's just a much bigger scale. And it's just a lot more exposure. And it can be really scary. in ways that I don't think you can really understand until you pass through that threshold. And it just felt very real very quickly. One of the most surreal, almost hallucinatory, and happiest moments in this process is when I first went on set in New Jersey.

42:49David Canfield:And you enter a film set, and it's almost like a cathedral with different levels of the inner sanctum. There's the crafty truck out there and then all the electrical stuff and then the background actors. And you get deeper and deeper and Oliver's leading me in. And then I entered the bar that I imagined in my head with the paintings on the wall. And Josh and Paul dressed like the characters that I imagined sitting there and saying the words that I wrote. And that was one of the most surreal and beautiful experiences I've ever had in a creative process. It truly, truly felt like a dream, like a nighttime dream, not like an aspiration, like a dream that came alive.

43:37Ben Shattuck:Well, I think that dreamlike quality is apt for that scene. You know, it's a kind of a magical scene unto itself. So I'm glad you were able to have that experience. And I'm so glad that you could spend some time talking with us today. We really appreciate it, Ben.

43:50David Canfield:Thank you so much. Yeah, it's good to talk with you.

43:52Richard Lawson:Yeah, congratulations on the movie.

43:53David Canfield:Thank you.

43:56Ben Shattuck:That does it for this week's episode of Little Gold Men. Join us again on Tuesday, July 15th to hear our reactions to the Emmy nominations. Our next Book Club episode will be on August 14th, and we're reading Hamnet by Maggie O 'Farrell. It's a full novel, so start now. We hope you'll read along with us and send some questions our way about the book or the adaptation of the film from Chloe Zhao. You can always send us an email about that or anything else at littlegoldmen at vf.com. Little Gold Men is produced by Hiba El-Urbani with mixing from Bumi Hidaka. Special thanks to Pran Bandy for studio engineering.

44:29Ben Shattuck:Condé Nast's head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. And this week's award for the worst thing about recording this podcast remotely goes to Hilary Buses.

44:37Richard Lawson:Yeah, we really don't get to look inside of David's head.