Zendaya Is the Moment. Here's Why.

27:12Her and Laura Roach as a collaboration, right, her stylists have leveraged fashion in a way in which I don't think any other of her contemporaries have. And I think, if anything, she sort of established a bit of a blueprint in showing how other celebrities can use fashion to become more famous in a way or become cooler or more interesting or more appealing to first an audience and then the rest of sort of like the film industry, perhaps. Let's talk a little bit about that collaboration with La Roche because they've known each other. They've worked together since she was a teen, like early teens, right?

27:45What is it about how they do this that is so unique? I think to me, what is unique about them is that they seem to be really close. Like they care a lot for each other. They are friends and they have a close relationship where there's an awareness from both ends that this is fully symbiotic. You know what I mean? I think Law loves fashion. He's so good at fashion, but he also sees that the way in which Zendaya's profile has grown is, yes, in part due to him, but also his profile has grown because of her. And I think Zendaya, on the other hand, same thing, right? Like she, I think, has a clear understanding of how much fashion has done for her and how much her style has done for her.

28:23And while she does have really great taste and she speaks about fashion as someone who knows about fashion, which is always delightful from my side, it is also really interesting that she will always credit him. And like, you know, she's one of those celebrities and this doesn't always happen, you know, for the people at home that when they are photographed for a magazine, when they are photographed for a campaign, when they are photographed for whatever they are, they will always request to use their own teams, right? And this is one of those few cases in which if you're a magazine, you're like, you know what?

28:50Why not? Yeah, actually, it's better. Like, it works. Like, you know, I think, and I'll give an example, Like Vogue, Zendaya's cover, I think it was in 2024, photograph by Anna Leibovitz. Like that was, I think, Law's first time styling a cover for Vogue. And it was like Zendaya's, I think, second cover, but that was a collaboration, right? Like Law styled her, looks incredible. She had worn things in that cover that she hadn't, brands and things that she hadn't worn in the past. But at the same time, it just made sense because why would you break them apart? They work so well. I have some questions, Jose, about - We love questions.

29:22about her sort of method dressing, dressing thematically throughout the promotional campaign to the film. I think she does an incredible job, but I do have a theory that if any other actor tried to do this, people would give them a hard time. But she never missteps. So why does it work so well for her? I think it works for two reasons. I think something that is undeniable and I think that is important to establish is that Zendaya is gorgeous. Like she is stunning. Yeah, that's true. She is sample sized. She has super long, beautiful legs. Like she is stunning. She looks like a model. And the thing about it too is that she knows how to use her body like a model.

30:00Like if you ever see BTS photos of her posing in photo shoots, you're so impressed. You're like, oh my God, it's giving sort of like, you know, all school super. And at the same time, if you sort of see her on the red carpet, she knows she's even made, I think in Graham Norton and other like talk shows, she's made jokes about how she always does sort of like the same thing with her legs. Like she knows how to wear clothes so well, right? So I think once you establish that, it makes sense that whatever she wears, you're just like, you know what? Sure. Like, right. But I think in terms of method dressing, and that is sort of like a law roach special, right?

30:29Like he started doing this. And like people think this started with like Dune or maybe Spider-Man. But this goes like Greatest Showman. Like this is like very early days. The thing is like maybe we weren't paying that much attention to Zendaya at the time, but they were doing it, right? It works really well because I think it helps tell the story. But I think what's most important is that law has a very deep understanding of how this industry works and not just in terms of like what goes viral, what doesn't, but also in terms of how magazines and reporting and coverage works. Right. If someone just looks good, that's not enough to write about.

31:04Like if you work on the fashion section at a website, if someone just looks fab, that's 200 words and you're like doing your best to get those out, right? But if there is sort of like a little bit, if there's a gag, if there's a gimmick, then you start building a story, right? And then you start building sort of something that you can talk about a little bit more. And I think that's sort of like the crux of method dressing, right? The reason why it works, period, for everyone else, not just Zendaya, in terms of going viral, in terms of coverage, etc., is that it gives people something to talk about.

31:34And I think for them, it works just because she wears clothes really well, but also because Law always has the right clothes. Or he always does it in a way that feels not too on the nose. And when it is on the nose, it's like when she wore that sort of spider webby kind of dress for Spider-Man. It was so glam. It was so beautiful that it wasn't sort of like, oh, she's in costume. And I think that's the difference. I think a lot of other actors that do this sort of lean a little too hard into the character and then become, like, they end up looking like the character. But I think she sort of always goes faster.

32:05And I will say of all the sort of tours, my least favorite was Challengers. Oh, Challengers. Okay, not the drama, but Challengers. Okay. Because to me, it almost got to this point where I'm like, okay, like, why are you wearing, like, tennis balls in your shoes, right? Yeah, it's a little costuming. Exactly. It sort of, like, crosses the line slightly. But I think everywhere else, like, I remember when she wore, like Rick Owens to promote that first Dune movie, I was like, right, like, of course. There's always a lot of intention in that. And sometimes the narrative goes a little too far. Like, I think in the drama, you're sort of like, okay, like, now I need to remember that.

32:35Like, is this the board? Is this the blue? Is this the new? You know, like, you're sort of like, now you're starting to ask a lot from the audience as well. But in some way, I think that's kind of fun too. But that's capturing the attention. Yeah. And it shows that she has a sense of humor for someone who is so polished and charming. Exactly. Wearing the dress that she wore when she ended Juliana Rancic's career on the Oscars and re-wearing that as something old. That's kind of funny. That's like a winking nod if you've been following her, if you've known about her for years. It's like, oh, I see what you did there.

33:00I respect that. I agree. And I think to both of your points is that it's like at the end of the day, one, it shows that she also has a sense of humor and that she also thinks about things in some certain way. But also it gives people something to talk about and it captures attention. And again, it gives people something to follow through a press tour. And I will say Zendaya is so good about at not talking about herself that when you give her the fashion, she has something to talk about. And I think the drama is a really good example of that, right? Sort of like the awareness of how many people are talking about whether or not she got married and them wearing wedding dresses is hilarious.

33:36And the fact that she's managed to go through this presser without sort of adding to that flame from... We don't know. Exactly. We still don't actually know, which I think is fab. Yeah, it's absolutely fab. You know, and I think that is like, that is using fashion in a really, really intelligent way. And I think, you know, she's also really aware of like how much it's done for her career. So why would she not continue doing it? Like now it's her thing, you know? She has a new collaboration with On. How do you see that in sort of the narrative of her fashion story? It's actually really interesting to me because Zendaya is, there are very few actors who sort of kind of like go through their careers without becoming super attached to one designer or one brand, right?

34:16Of course, Ndea is a Vuitton ambassador, and before that, she was a Valentina ambassador. But what's interesting to me about On is that this is almost like her having her cake and eating it too. It is no secret, I hope, to anyone at this point that actors are making so much more money outside of... Actually making movies and TV shows. They make more money doing brand collaborations. Exactly, right? They make so much money out of all these brand deals. We've spoken about this in the past as well. and I think it's interesting because her doing this is like leaning into sort of how famous she is as a sort of a style oracle for a certain generation without going too hard, right?

34:55And again, she's a Vuitton ambassador, but she's not fully, fully always wearing Vuitton as like Emma Stone, right? And I think that's something to say about her power as well in terms of like, brands will be like, I'd rather get one really great Zanaya moment, whether it's at the Met, at the Oscars, whatever, than sort of have 100 mid ones in some way. And I think On speaks to the fact that, like, yes, she can do the brand deal without sort of making it about a handbag, about limiting herself in terms of fashion or the red carpet. Okay, let's, for our last question, have some fun. Everyone go around and say their favorite Zendaya look.

35:29And there's a lot. Rebecca, I'm going to start with you. Okay, I'm going to pick the 2022 Oscars. She wore Valentino. It was a silvery, sparkly skirt and this white button-down crop. And I thought it was just so fun. And I'm not going to pick something from one of her themed method things because I think this was just a really fun year. I also remember Timothy had a crop or no shirt on under his jacket that year. And they were just so youthful and playful, but also mature at the same time. I really loved that look from her. It was also a nod to the Sharon Stone thing, right? Yes, yes. When she wore the white cat.

36:10Yeah. Okay. Chris? Okay. I'm going to go also away from method dressing. I'm going to go when she wore the bubble dress at Paris Fashion Week. She had this gorgeous button-up white kind of Oxford shirt, but then it was really asymmetrical bubble kind of gown that would look insane on anyone else, but she can pull it off. It was weird kind of like, frumpy is not the right word because she's so elegant in high fashion. It was a lot of fabric. It was a lot of fabric and the silhouette would be really crazy on someone who wasn't her. But I just thought it was so great. And I talked to her a little bit about wearing it.

36:46And I was like, oh, that's really, really weird. I think my favorite Zendaya look is that Rick Owens dress just because it felt like something she would never wear. Because while it is very fashion, capital F, et cetera, it is not sort of, it's not just like a beautiful gown. You know what I mean? And I love that. And I also, I think the bald man she wore also for Dune that first year, the one that was like sculpted on her body, that leather one. That to me was gorgeous. With a Bulgarian necklace. She was a Bulgarian ambassador at the time. Like that to me worked so well. And I think those two me are my favorites because they are method dressing at their finest.

37:21You know what I mean? Like if you're going to go method, you need to like really come into the bit without going costume. And those two really worked for me. High concept. What's yours, John? Okay. Okay, I'm gonna go for the biggest campiest thing she's ever done. I knew you were gonna do this. Which is the robot for G2, the nuclear robot. Just because I think it is so hard to break through the noise. And when she stepped on that carpet, I mean, our phones exploded. I mean, it was like, it felt a little like when Beyonce dropped like a surprise music video or something. Like, it was like, for the next hour, you were just online being like, is that a real robot?

38:02How can she sit? Is she wearing that inside? And I think that, listen, you know, the studios are spending a fortune to fly these people around. I would love to have gotten video of behind the scenes of La Roche and the 600 Warner Brothers PAs tasked with getting her into that outfit and then getting her out of it. And it's like, well, is it worth it? for her it is for her and that it's like yeah it was worth it it was the biggest moment well that's how you make a modern movie star yeah what i mean like that's that's how it works and i think that one is iconic because that's the kind of archive piece by the way that you can't alter right like all of those pieces like they were screwed on around her body like you can't sort of like make that shorter make it like that had to fit her perfectly and it did like it was sort of like meant to be in some way oh it's also funny so like in theory it's method dressing but I'm also like there are no like robots like that yeah but that's also why it works because loosely it sort of fits into the fantasy and that's more than enough and it makes me we're going to care about the world and see the world more so now I'm going to get a ticket to see exactly and then you're sitting in the theater for however many hours alright next time we all do this we each come dressed in our favorite Zendaya outfit exactly we'll get you the robot I get my bubble dress out of the closet well Jose thank you so much for joining us again it's always great to have you Where have we been?

39:26We're going to take another break. When we get back, does Zendaya's relationship status have anything to do with why we love her? Stick with us.

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40:27Welcome back to Little Gold Men. So I think there's a piece of the Zendaya stardom puzzle that we haven't talked about too much yet, and that's the Tom Holland of it all. Her maybe husband, longtime boyfriend. Obviously, celebrity relationships are a huge source of public interest and gossip. What is it about their relationship that makes it such a part of her profile? It's kind of like written in the stars, kind of like quintessential, like two movie stars meeting during a chemistry read and then they play opposite each other and then they're together forever. Like, it's almost too good to be true.

41:04I think that's what people like about it. And I think individually, they both bring their own van bases. You know, Zendaya has the Disney thing and then Tom Holland has Marvel. Of course, she's now in that world, but he's, you know, he's Spider-Man. He's the superhero. He's the superhero. So I think, like, the marrying of those two worlds, those two very intense and massive fandom worlds, makes the relationship seem like, oh my gosh, it's like, it couldn't be real because it's too perfect. It's like the sort of thing as, like, old Hollywood studios would make them be in a fake relationship because it's so perfect.

41:40But it's real and it's modern day and it exists. So, yeah, I agree. And he, Tom Holland is obviously a movie star because of Spider-Man, but he's also like a very charming celebrity. I mean, I don't know how many times I've watched him do that lip sync battle. Dance battle. He's an incredible dancer, you know, like they just, they have so much talent in two human beings that it's just like, I can see why people are so interested in it. Well, they also have the same relationship to fame, which is they're not terribly interested in it outside of promoting the movie. You don't really see them out a lot.

42:19They're not a part of the Hollywood circuit, so to speak. They don't really go to each other's premieres together to appear. They're obviously a real couple. Like, sometimes we watch couples and we're like, these two seem like strangers. Um, that's, you don't get that. You obviously get a sense from them immediately that they're really together, they spend time together. But they're not overly concerned about being a part of the Hollywood machine. And so I think that's just super appealing for both of them. They feel like this kind of, like, regular couple that just happen to be massive A-list movie stars and then get to do a press tour together once every four years for Spider-Man.

43:08For the rest of time. And it's kind of incredible how private they're able to keep their relationship, though. Like, when they got engaged, she went to the Globes with that ring on, but never said it. Never said it out loud to anyone. And now we're doing the same thing. Like, they have probably gotten married, but there were no paparazzi pictures, and there was no confirmation. She did an entire press tour without confirming this. Like, that is incredible. And it's still up in the air because we only heard that they may have gotten married from her stylist, La Roche, who said, you missed it. He said on the carpet, like, it was great, you missed it.

43:43But then no one has confirmed or denied if they've actually gotten married. So it's still pretty unclear as to whether or not they've gotten that. Do you think that that was a mistake on his part or that was planned? I think he was maybe playing a little. I don't know. I don't think he makes mistakes. Right. Right. That's what it feels like. No, I don't think she makes mistakes. But I still think for something like that, I don't know if that's how the teams would want that news to be shared. So I see him playing with us, having a little fun. Also, there were all these AI photos from Zendaya and Tom Holland's wedding that were not real, that looked very real, sort of.

44:20But also if you looked at them, you'd be like, that doesn't make any sense. This is clearly fake. But they went mega viral. They went, like, super, super viral on Instagram and on Twitter. So it's like people want this content, clearly. They're making fake photos and sharing them because people care about this couple so much. It does seem sort of perfect that he, you know, slipped this rumor out when she's on the drama, which is about a wedding. Yeah. It is sort of almost too perfect for it. for it. But it is crazy because you think how many tabloids are probably trying to get any information about that wedding and not a single thing has come out.

44:59Like it is if it happened and the way they're able to protect their private lives. And I and I think celebrities should be able to do that. But for two people this famous to be able to do it successfully is pretty incredible. Well, because if they got married, I'm sure it was just like not with people that would blab, you know yeah but people love to blab like a waiter i mean come on i think it's i think it's just like they really are like homebodies and like it was probably pretty small and you know they might do a bigger something later on where like they invite all their celebrity friends and stuff like that that's what i think this is a lot of fan fiction yeah i'm like so your team they've definitely gotten married and it happened i'm like the only reason is because Patinson accidentally said it too.

45:45Okay. He said it in an interview. He said your husband or something. And then they quickly brushed over it. Yeah. Well, John, you can be honest. Did you officiate the wedding? Did you officiate the wedding? Well, I've officiated many weddings, but unfortunately not that one. And if they had had me officiate it, you would know. And it would have leaked. And it would have leaked. Okay. I think we could wrap this up by sort of talking about how this relationship with the public influences how audiences see her. You know, I talk to a lot of actors who say, I don't want to share too much about my private life because it influences how audiences may or may not accept me as a character and things like that.

46:25And I think she has found the perfect balance in a time when that's very hard to do with social media and all of that, where, like, she can be private, and then she can also be a celebrity at the same time. What do you think? Yeah, I think she kind of is hitting in every department in terms of like being a celebrity that we want to see or we want to know more about. People clearly want to know more about her life. And she's private. And that's probably part of the reason. then choosing interesting mostly good projects she's been in a bunch of bangers recently you don't have to love them all but they're all quite successful and she does great work and all of them i i would say too so i think and also feeling ubiquitous like she is we see her photos all the time and like we see her on red carpets but also having that privacy i feel it's like wow she's sort of like delivering in every category of being a movie star in terms of picking great work doing good work in that great work, and then also leaving a little mystery for us.

47:25So we're going to be seeing Zendaya a lot the rest of this year with The Odyssey, Spider-Man, Dune Part 3. But I'm curious, if you were to pick a dream project you'd like to see from her next, what would it be? I think she's proven herself in the sci-fi realm, in the action realm, in the comedy, like pitch black comedy realm. I know rom-com, you might think that, but actually, no. I want I want to see her, I think she needs a Malcolm Marie redo. I want her to see her do a really intense drama. Lead an intense, not television show, and not one where she's playing a teen or someone young. I want to see her lead an Oscar nominated, something.

48:03You want her in Blue Valentine? Yeah. Actually, I think she's ready for something like a Blue Valentine. Like a Die My Love, but different than that. Or better. Yeah, yeah. I think she can do it. I think that's what people are waiting for her. They want to see, can she hold her own in this way? And I think she can. But my biggest complaint with the drama is they didn't give her enough to do. It was too much Robert Pattinson's movie, and she was doing great work, but I felt like she needed a little bit more to do. So that's what I want to see. Well, I think she is already making a project that is the thing I want her to do, which is Barry Jenkins is directing her in a film.

48:40I don't know where they are in the process. Last time I saw Barry, he said he was working on it. But she's going to play Ronnie Spector, the singer, but it's very specifically about her relationship with producer Phil Spector and not like a full biopic. And I think Barry's an incredible filmmaker, and I think that pairing will be really exciting. So I hope that's moving along. And then the other thing is I wanted to do another like big old musical. Well, that's mine. Oh, sorry. I told John it to two answers. I want her in a Moulin Rouge. I want to see Zendaya in a Moulin Rouge type. Big, you know, Chicago, something.

49:21I mean, we know she can sing. We know she can dance. We know she can act. And we know that she can wear the hell out of a costume. Yeah. So I want her in a big budget Baz Luhrmann-esque musical. I want it to premiere in Cannes. I want it all. I want to have my cake and eat it too. You want her in Moulin Rouge and I want her in The Hours. Okay, I get it. That's the difference. But I love it. The Ronnie Spector movie is super interesting. That could be Oscar-y. That's going to be a great movie. I definitely think, you know, the Oscar conversation will be coming for her eventually. So I'm excited for that season as well, whenever it happens.

50:03So I think whatever she does, obviously the three of us will be watching closely and very excited to see it. Oh, yeah. Chris, thank you again. So nice to have you. Thank you for having me. And I will be back. Yes, you will. Thanks for listening to Little Gold Men. Michelle O 'Brien is our senior producer. We had engineering help today from Pran Bandy with mixing by Mike Kuchman. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. And don't forget, next week we're going deep on The Devil Wears Prada and talking to the writer of both films. So if you have any questions you'd like to ask her, email us at littlegoldmen at vf.com.

50:43See you next week.

50:54Hey, y 'all, Sam Sanders here. It's finally awards season. But year-round, we celebrate the best in film, TV, and pop culture and share the real stories behind all of it, like the legendary costume designer Ruth E. Carter, who helped bring sinners to life, or the wonderful actor and newly crowned Emmy winner, Jeff Hiller. Plus, the songwriter behind K-pop Demon Hunters, Mark Sonnenblick. Catch up on your awards season faves every week on The Sam Sanders Show. Listen in the KCRW app, wherever you get your podcasts, and on YouTube.

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