Choosing Hope (Even When It’s Hard) With Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe

0:03Paula Felps:Thank you for joining us for episode 558 of Live Happy Now. If there's one thing we could all use a little bit more of these days, it's hope. And that's exactly what this week's guest is bringing us. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and today I'm joined by resiliency expert Dr. Robyn Hanley-Dafoe. Her latest book, I Hope So, uses hope as the strategy for rewiring our brains for greater resiliency, and well-being, no matter how difficult times become. She's here today to talk about how hope is an essential tool that can ignite personal transformation, help us bounce back from setbacks, and become the most successful version of ourselves.

0:44Paula Felps:Let's have a listen.

0:45Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:Dr. Robin, thank you so much for coming back on Live Happy Now. I'm so happy to be here, Paula. Thanks for the invitation.

0:52Paula Felps:Well, I had a wonderful reason to invite you because you have a brand new book. I could not be timed any better because it's all about hope. And let's start with why you knew that this was the time to write this particular book.

1:06Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:Yeah, well, thank you. So the book is called I Hope So, How to Choose Hope Even When It's Hard. And where this origin story began was, as you know, I study human resiliency and I study stress. And when I looked at that work, the research, but also just the stories people shared with me and the learning, the through line, without a doubt, for people to be resilient, for people to be able to navigate stress, challenge, change, uncertainty, you name it, Paula, the through line was always a hope practice. And so I got so curious, what is hope actually? And what is it doing that's creating this psychological and physiological difference in people?

1:49Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And once we started to learn about it, I just wanted to share about it.

1:53Paula Felps:And first of all, you share it remarkably well. And it's very interesting because I've heard throughout the last couple of decades of business, people are like, oh, hope is not a business strategy. And all these other little sayings about that kind of downplays the value of hope. And it does seem that we kind of think of hope as like this soft skill or maybe a Hail Mary pass. So tell me why that kind of thinking is inaccurate. Yeah.

2:19Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:So just so interesting, actually, just last week, I was sitting across the table from a retired Navy SEAL. Like I'm talking about like this man is a warrior, a hero. And he looked at me and he said, my whole life, part of the military belief is like, hope is not a strategy. And he said, but I know it is. And you've put words to what we knew to be true, but we didn't understand like the mechanics behind it. And so I was just like, we talk about like just a lovely endorsement coming from somebody who is just, I come from this belief system. I come from this ecosystem. We've always known it was a strategy, but we've never really understood why.

2:56Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And again, I feel so fortunate to be that person as that, like, let me tell you about it. And what we see is that when our body is in a hope-filled state, so hope-filled state means that we are open to possibility, that we are not attached to outcome, which would be very much in line with optimism. So optimism is when we hope something is going going to turn out a particular way. And we're trusting it's going to kind of turn out the way we want it to, right? So applying for that new job, I hope I get it. Like that's optimism or thinking I will get it, right? That's optimism. Hope is I may or may not land the job, but I trust that it is going to work out, that I am on the right trajectory for what is meant for me.

3:39Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And we're able to take almost a less stressful approach to uncertainty because we trust in our resources. We know we're well-resourced. We believe it's possible. We see what's around us that allows us to have that confidence that we're going to figure it out. And it's a much more strategic way to be because it doesn't use our physiological and our psychological resources in such a depleting way.

4:04Paula Felps:So why haven't we learned more about it sooner?

4:08Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:Oh, what a great question. And interesting, like in the book, there's actually a chapter that's called Hopscotching Through History because hope, it's always been around. And one of my favorite stories that I share, there's so many favorites in that book, but one of the ways that I framed the conversation was like to go all the way back to when did we first start talking about hope? Like when did we even see hope in literature? When did we see it in conversation? And the story that I share early in the book is actually Pandora's box. And we know it, I was like more a jar, but the idea was, so here we have this old story where Pandora is gifted this box, again, a jar likely, but she's gifted it.

4:49Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And she is told like, you have this gift, but you're not allowed to open it. And of course she's curious because who wouldn't be if you're

4:57Paula Felps:given this magical box from Zeus, right?

5:01Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:You're given this gift from Zeus. And so she opens it And she unlocks all of the deadly sins into the world, right? So this is the first woman, first human. She unlocks all of these deadly sins into the world. And right at the very moment, Paula, she's able to trap one thing left. She gets the lid back on it really quick. And the one thing that's left behind is hope. The one thing that is in the bottom of that container that the world needs to be able to combat all of these hardships, all of this negativity, all of these evil pieces is the fact that humans were left with the capacity to hold hope.

5:41Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And again, I appreciate that this is this old story that talks about, and you know, even some people have talked about how, no, we're mistaken that hope is actually like one of the worst curses because it can hurt us so deeply, right? It's like, if we get our hopes up and then we don't have the thing work out, it could be devastating. But the reality is that the fact that being able to see past hardship, to see past destruction, to be able to see past and see a future is a gift. It is a super skill that we need to cultivate because holding onto despair, having that sense that what's the point or doom and gloom or the state of the world is so unwell, we will never rebound.

6:22Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:We will never recalibrate, we'll never get our hopes up again. That's not going to be the anecdote to bring upon positive change. We actually have to get our hopes up again. We have to start believing in each other in community and collaboration and trusting that the human spirit has always and will always persevere.

6:41Paula Felps:Oh, I love that because people do say that. Well, I don't want you to get your hopes up. It's like, why not? Because even if that outcome doesn't occur, the way that it changed you physiologically during that time when you did have your hopes up, when you were encouraged? Can you talk about what that does? Because it's not just a mental thing that it does. It's not a shift alone when we get our hopes up. Yeah.

7:04Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:So what happens when we actually activate that hope-filled system is what's happening is we're essentially like cooling off our nervous system into a place of saying like, we don't need to worry, right? So we're not in this chronic state of like hyper arousal or the idea we often talk about the quickest way to lose control is to try to control everything, right? So it's this idea like if you are trying to control everything, like that's the best way to feel out of control. When we have a hope-filled practice, we have that deep sense of steadiness. So our nervous system doesn't feel it needs to be activated.

7:39Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:It doesn't feel that sense of urgency, that sense of rushedness. So what's then available to us, what's now available to us is this like spaciousness where our thoughts become clear. Our body feels regulated. We feel steady and we feel grounded. And then we make better choices. When we're in that arousal state of hyper-focus, we're not making wise decisions. We're making just-in-time surviving decisions. We're not looking out for our neighbor. We're not looking at the bigger picture. We're just looking at the immediate moment and we're feeling all of that cortisol, all of that stress hormone, just ravaging our nervous system.

8:18Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:But when we're able to like rise above that noise, rise above all of that negativity and hold the line on what is just, what is true. And we trust, we see that we're able to show up in a more productive way, physiologically and psychologically.

8:33Paula Felps:That is very relevant right now in our world. There's just so much turmoil. While people are feeling extremely overwhelmed, we're overstimulated by the news, by the events that are going on around us. There is a lot of anguish and heartbreak going on in the world. And we're very aware of that. So how can having hope during times when things don't seem hopeful, how does that help us first as an individual? And then how do we share that out into our community?

9:02Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:Yeah, it's a very sad state of affairs right now on so many fronts. And being hope-filled doesn't mean we don't acknowledge the injustices. We don't acknowledge the bad things that are rampant right now across the world. What it does recognize is that me getting angry and me getting to the point where I'm not making wise decisions and I'm in this place of reactivity and I'm essentially drinking and consuming that poison and that toxicity, that isn't going to be the solution. So what it does to us personally, when we hold the line, that we protect our peace, that we trust in each other, we trust in humanity, our capacity, what that allows us to do is basically show up in a way where we're able to, again, make thoughtful decisions.

9:49Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:We're able to show up for each other. We can still hold compassion and empathy, but also that's this fertile ground where we become better critical thinkers, where we become problem solvers, where we see things solutions, ideas that if we are so, so consumed by rage and anger and pain that we might not be present too. So again, it doesn't mean we don't get angry about what's happening. Like absolutely this is wrong. What we realize is that we have to hold space for that emotion and then we're going to rise above it because we want to be that person who as a collective can become a source of light, a source of support.

10:28Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And we know what it feels like when we are around someone who has their nervous system in check. It's the same that, for example, like when we look at first responders, when they arrive on the scene of an accident, you know, they are trained to regulate their emotions. They're not freaking out. They look at you, make strong eye contact, and they say, Paula, I got you. You're okay. You're not alone. And when all of a sudden we see this opportunity to have support and allyship, possibility opens up. We become stronger together and we're thinking in a more clear way that's action oriented. That's going to put us in the place of being able to find our way through whatever this nightmare is.

11:10Paula Felps:Right now, there's a lot of people who are listening to this who are saying that sounds fabulous, but how do I get to that point? And you bring up that hope is not a feeling. it's a practice, which is so very important because one, I think that's just something we've never been taught. So how do we implement hope as a practice that can help us achieve that state that you just described to us?

11:35Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:Yeah, that's a beautiful question. So the same kind of way, if you think about like, we're not necessarily taught how to worry, right? Like in the sense where we're probably modeled a lot of these behaviors. So I don't recall my mother ever sitting me down and saying like, girl, this is how you worry, right? This is how you overthink. This is how you take on more responsibility than what's yours to carry. Like I was never sat down and taught those things, but I was modeled those things. And if we can model towards worry or fear, then the reality is we can model towards hope and a possibility. So what that looks like, it starts at home, like everything else.

12:13Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:It literally starts at home in terms of the people that are around us. And what does that look like? Somebody says, I'm really looking forward to this. I want to learn this new instrument. And instead of saying like, wow, that's really hard. Or do you know how many people try and fail? It's like, yeah, let me find you examples of people who have learned this instrument or who have gone into that career. Or let me give you examples. In our household, we have big basketball players. So ever since Jackson's heart got on fire that he wanted to play professional basketball, it's like, let me show you all the other Canadians who've been able to do this.

12:48Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:Like this is possible. So representation for getting our hopes up is really crucial. And again, we're not able to hold two things at the same time when it comes to something like worry. So what I mean by that is we can't hold gratitude and worry at the same time. They're not compatible emotion. So if we're really cultivating this idea of a positive outlook and possibility, there isn't space in there for that. Don't get your hopes up or that negativity, because again, those emotions are out of alignment. So that congruency by setting the tone, by letting people lean in and getting excited again, getting the invitation.

13:27Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:I was recently talking to a group of adults and they said to me, Robin, what can we do for our kids? I'm like, as a grownup, show them that you're in love with your life. And I appreciate that's very hard to do, but it's a choice. I enjoy getting to work. I get to enjoy my family. I enjoy my community. I enjoy a hot cup of coffee in the morning. I enjoy and I appreciate time with my puppies. We have to show them the positives because right now, Paul, I can tell you, kiddos, they're not excited to grow up. Growing up seems really scary because what they're seeing is this modeled example of the fact that the world is so unwell.

14:05Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And you know what, the world, the reality is it's always been very unwell. There's really never been points in history as far back as we can go when everything was peaceful. Right now, there tends to be a wee bit of a spotlight on particular areas that are impacting people in a way, especially in North America, that they haven't had exposure to before. but the reality is the world has always been bumpy. It's always been scary. And there's always been people who've been able to figure it out.

14:32Paula Felps:You're absolutely correct. We are getting a taste of medicine we didn't want and we really haven't had before. So as we look at how we model hope for our children, what kind of practice do we put into place for ourselves so that our children can follow in that. And then, okay, two parts. Then also, will you explain how this is different from saying like toxic positivity? We're not saying everything is fine, but we're having hope in spite of that.

15:14Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:So again, getting really granular as a behaviorist, I really love when we're like, okay, let's get to the integration part. Like let's drill right down. Okay. So, you know, what does that look like? How do we hold space for it? Well, first of all, as soon as we wake up in the morning, right, we have this like, for all intents and purposes, I like to think of this like blank slate, right? We wake up in the morning, it's a fresh day. It's a new day. As the famous Anne Shirley character from Anna Green Gables wrote, there's no mistakes in it yet. Right. That's what she says. She loves about a new day that there's no mistakes in it yet.

15:44Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And so think about what am I saying to myself? What does that inner dialogue, that inner monologue sound like? Is it like, oh gosh, I didn't get enough sleep last night or damn, I got to do this all again today. Or what's the point? Or is it like waking up and I know my personal practice, Paula, as soon as I have consciousness in the morning, I just say, thank you.

16:04Paula Felps:Thank you. Lovely practice. Thank you.

16:07Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:Yeah. And I say, thank you three times. As soon as I realize I'm waking up, I just say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Because every day is a gift. And when you've experienced loss and grief, we don't take any of those days for granted. So it's just starting my day with thank you. So just imagine even the difference of me waking up and being like, shoot, I'm already behind, right? I slept in, I'm already behind. And oh my gosh, this to-do list is going to take me down today versus what it feels like just in our body to wake up and say, thank you. So small micro practices, right? I say, thank you.

16:44Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:And then again, I set the tone of the day in terms of, I make sure that I've done something that's going to fill up my bucket before I ever open myself up to the world. And I mean, by picking up a phone, looking at the news, like I make sure that I put some kind of almost like these little guardrails around my head and my heart before I ever find out what happened in the last 12 hours out there in the big world. And for me, what's really important is getting outside, being in nature. And what's so beautiful, even just a wonder walk, right? Wandering around, walking in nature, not to try and get my 10 ,000 steps or not wearing a weighted vest because the weight of the world is already on our shoulders.

17:23Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:We don't need a weighted vest, let me tell you. But like getting outside when all of a sudden you see nature, when you see trees, when you just see that ecosystem around us, it's actually a hope-filled practice recognizing the seasons that these things have seen. Even just the ground that we're walking on, the people who have walked before us. Like, and not to get all philosophical, this is very behavioral, that simply being out in nature, it's going to boost my immune system. We know that exposure to nature boosts your immune system up to seven days after being outdoors. When our blood has lots of access to vitamin D that, or we jokingly call it vitamin N nature, all of a sudden we're more open.

18:06Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:Our nervous system's more relaxed. We're calmer. We have clarity. That brain fog dissipates. So again, starting our day in a really intentional way. Also, if we want to level up or skill up, it's like there are so many resources around writings of people who have overcome kind of that falling into that practice of hearing the stories, you know, either historical or maybe a faith-based practice where we know where we can cast our fears and our worries, or perhaps even just listening to positive intention. Again, that's not toxic positivity. That's not ignoring it. It's trusting in the human condition.

18:43Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe:It's trusting in the will of people to have the opportunity to choose. And it's important just to be able to offset the drumbeat of negativity that we are going