The Science & Spirituality of Silliness With Tom Rosshirt

0:03Thank you for joining us for episode 529 of Live Happy Now. If it's been a while since you found yourself acting silly, we're hoping today's episode will change that. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week I'm talking with Tom Rosshirt, author of the book Chasing Peace, and he's here to talk about the science and spirituality of silliness. As you're about to learn, embracing your silliness can have an amazing impact on your mood, your health, and even your relationships. So get ready to learn how to take silliness more seriously. Tom, welcome back to Live Happy Now. I'm so happy to be back.

0:39Thank you. I'm super glad to have you back on the show. This is a show that's been months in the making because when I read your book, Chasing Peace, you had a very small, it wasn't even a full chapter. It was just a few pages that talked about the spirituality of silliness. And that was, I dog-eared that page, and I went back to it multiple times because it just resonated with me. And I think part of it is we don't think spirituality and silliness in the same sentence. So talk about what you mean by the spirituality of silliness. Well, okay, so that's sort of starting in the middle. So I will start in the middle, which is spirituality for me means I decide there's somebody I want to be.

1:26And this is how to be happy. And there's somebody I want to be. And I get high when people see me that way. And I get hurt if they don't see me that way. But that's the focus of my life and the drive to happiness is to be this person. But the spiritual part comes in when that path, the self-image model of happiness, the pursuit of a self-image in order to make yourself happy, that fails. And it has to fail because to be this one thing, you have to deny all these other things that you are. And you realize that trying to become a self-image is really a way to avoid painful feelings. We tell ourselves, and there's a lot of psychological research in this, but we tell ourselves, if only I could be a very prominent writer, a great podcaster, someone who brings meaning to people's lives and all these, then I won't have to fight thoughts that I don't belong.

2:24You don't really matter. You're not worthy. No one would miss you. All these terrible feelings that make us unhappy, we want a way to drive them out and keep them out. So we try to have this self-image, but in the end, that self-image has to fail. And it fails because reality doesn't treat our conceits kindly. We are exposed as not being all the things we claim and being some of the things we insist we're not. We also break down because our body breaks down from the stress of trying to defend and promote this image of ourselves. And then ultimately, the whole path to happiness breaks down because of my self-image.

3:04breaks down and I can't achieve it, my body's exhausted, then what happened to my path to happiness? So this is all a good thing. We think it's a terrible thing. We think it can't possibly be good if it feels bad, if it feels wrong. But the material pursuit of happiness has to fail for us to take up the spiritual pursuit of happiness, which can, in fact, deliver all the things that we wanted, but the material can't do that. So as I see it, the material side of life, the first half of life, is trying to build up this self-image. And the spiritual half, the second half of life, is trying to give up that self-image.

3:46And so because the self-image is built on fear, because the self-image is built to avoid certain feelings, when you drop that self-image and you enter the spiritual life, you're facing all the feelings that you created the self-image to avoid. So now we're in the spiritual half of life where we're giving up this claim and we're giving up that claim and we're facing feelings that we were running from our whole life, but this time we're feeling them. And then we can get to the piece that's on the other side of the pain. But now back to what does silliness have to do with that? I know because When we're being silly, we are taking a decisive step outside our self-image.

4:29The self-image is a material pursuit of happiness. But when we decide, I'm going to step outside my self-image, and you can say, I'm going to step outside my comfort zone. You can put it that way. But once we step outside the self-image and we're doing things that we have kept ourselves from doing because they invite the difficult feelings, then we're in the spiritual domain. So this is where you get to embarrassment, right? The self-image, we create the self-image in part to protect ourselves from embarrassment. I'm really good at this. I'm very capable. I'm reliable. You can always count on me.

5:06I'm a serious, purposeful person. I always deliver results. Whatever that is, when you step outside that and maybe you miss a deadline or you blow a project or you submit something with a mistake in it, you're embarrassed. And you want to go back to your self-image to avoid the embarrassment. But if you go into the embarrassment and you're able to sit with it, then you basically are winning the right to be yourself. The embarrassment is what culture uses to control us, to keep us smaller, to keep us more narrow. So let's say if I'm going into an interview for a job that I really want, and I'm young, and I'm striving, and I'm 30 years old, I'm going to be very purposeful, very serious.

6:00I'm not, there'll be no silliness at all. Correct. Right. But now I'm on the other half of life. I'm 65 years old. I work with a group of people that I adore. And partly because I'm one of the founders and the originators, I can be silly. I can be not serious, purposeful. I can admit my flaws. I can own my mistakes. All these things that are outside of self-image. But anyway, so shortly, this is just part of being silly. And if I am purposely being silly, like if I stood up and did itsy bitsy spider calls up the water spout, right? But that feels silly for me as 65 year old serious person doing itsy bitsy spider makes me feel embarrassed.

6:48Even if I'm doing it by myself, it makes me feel embarrassed. So either I recoil and say, that was silly, or I just do more of it. And then I start laughing. And I start laughing partly because it's embarrassing, but I start laughing partly because of the liberation of doing something that only a child would do when I'm not any longer a child. So there is my too long answer. We can follow up. But yeah, that's why it's spirituality. It's stepping outside of this narrow vision of who you think you have to be to be happy. And silliness is a bold, aggressive, audacious step outside of that smaller, more constrained, more culture-obedient self.

7:31Well, because I had read your book and read your thoughts on it, I, of course, got interested in the topic. I had to dig a little bit deeper. And so then I actually found that there is science behind silliness because it does activate the prefrontal cortex, which is where we regulate our emotions. It helps us boost creativity. And it also reduces the activity in our amygdala, which means it lowers our stress response. So that makes it a pretty powerful tool just by being silly. I never dreamed that it would have those kind of effects on us physically and emotionally. So let's talk a little bit about how you discovered, I know you use silliness as a tool to shut off negativity.

8:16And how did you discover that? Because I don't know if you did the same, hey, chat GPT, tell me more about what this does, or if you just discovered it on your own. No, no, I can't claim credit that I did it on my own. I got wise to this when, and you know, because you had me on and we talked about chasing piece that I went through a decade of really painful, serious, stress-related conditions that sent me out of my house. I was afraid of everything, every substance, every smell, every light, sound, every food. I wasn't practicing avoidance because I thought everything was giving me anxiety. Everything was making me ill.

8:55And then I found Annie Hopper, who is a healer of stress-based conditions, right? She does a dynamic neural retraining system. And you can find her at retrainingthebrain.com. But so I went to Annie Hopper when absolutely nothing else was working for me. And I was running from things thinking that I was moving away from danger. But I discovered I was actually running away from fear, which intensified the fear. And fear was the cause of all my conditions. So I went to Annie, and she was magic for me. And like other people in her field, she's able to identify when the limbic system goes on high alert and never comes back, when the amygdala is firing and you have all kinds of dangerous signals coming into you from things that are not dangerous, but your brain perceives them as dangerous.

9:48So you got cortisol and adrenaline and norepinephrine pounding in your system, and there's no end to the symptoms that you can experience or the suffering you experience. So with Annie, one of the things that she said, there were five steps I remember taking for six months as I was working this program very diligently. And one of them was elevate your mood throughout the day. And so that was a challenge for me because anybody who's done depression, we know that the real sneaky power of depression is it strips away our desire to do anything. and we just want to sink in. We think there's no hope.

10:28There's no point. There's no reason to do anything. But that's just a lie we tell ourselves when we don't want to get better. But I wanted to get better. And so every time I felt depression, I felt a call to elevate my mood. So I was exploring different ways to elevate my mood. And I found quickly that laughter was an instant mood boost. And so I tried different forms of laughter. Like I would be in some frustrating situation and I would say, I love this. And that would make me giggle. Or I would clap my hands together and I would jump up and down. And I would be relating this to a friend of mine who said, you know what I'm doing now?

11:10I'm clapping my hands together. She says, clapping your hands? And I said, yeah, clapping my hands together like a small child. And so her reaction let me know that I had jumped the border from laughter to being silly. And so I recognized that silly was just a high powered way to get to laughter. So that's how I went into silly. And then I created a whole repertoire of silly actions and behaviors that I would practice. But that's how I got there from trying to elevate my mood. That is awesome. And as you point out, people who have a dignified presence, which is you, they're often reluctant to embrace silliness.

11:52So how do they kind of get past that? And how do you learn that, hey, it's not only okay to have this silly side, it's actually beneficial? Yeah. The first thing you do is you do it when you're alone. So don't go and start like in the middle of your newsroom or whatever. No, don't start in the middle of Times Square. Time Square might be fine, but everything's okay in Time Square. But no, you don't want to do it in public at a party, at a dinner party or something like that, where people don't know you in particular. So my first practice was on my own, in my practice, in my basement. And I would do goofball things, like singing and dancing is sort of an obvious start.

12:33Clapping, jumping up and down, saying things like, cookies, cookies, hooray for cookies. But I even like memorize the oath of office of the president of the United States. And I placed my left hand on a literal Bible and put my right hand and I recited the oath of office, which is only 35 words. And I think, you know, it's good to memorize it because you never know what might happen. These are unpredictable times. I want to be ready. You just might. You never know. But the thing that I go to most often is John Philip Sousa marches. And I don't know whether this is why, but when we were little kids, my mom, she used to be ironing in the basement and we were five boys.

13:18And she didn't want us all in the basement. Right. But she said she gave us the tops of pots and pans and put on John Philip Sousa marches and had us march around the dining room table clanging these pots and pans. She would know because of the clanging that, OK, we're up there. We're fine. You're not getting into other mischief. Right. So anyway, I think that maybe that prompted me. But if I and there's a theory of this I want to talk about because you raised the science part of it. But if I wake up and I this doesn't happen that much anymore because all these practices that have borne good fruit.

13:57But if I wake up and I am depressed, like depressed and I feel really heavy and I go into this office where I am now, I have a little house in my backyard where I work from. and I go to John Philip Sousa marches and I put on stars and stripes forever and I start literally marching back and forth, I feel like a total clown. And then I start laughing out loud. And then sometimes I start to cry. It's like so much emotion, but depression can't stand silliness, a depressing thought or depressing feeling. They need each other to perpetuate the mood. And if they run into something silly, if they run into laughter, they get stalled, right?

14:48They lose traction. So I found that when I'm depressed and I do something silly, like Susan March, it's like taking a hot frying pan and putting it in the cool sink of water and you hear but that heat can't stand in the cool water and that's what i think the effect is we'll be right back with more of live happy now if you're looking for a little more joy in your week we've got two ways to help you boost your mood right when you need it the most our sunday sillies newsletter has become a huge hit with listeners, bringing you a weekly pep talk, a couple of lighthearted happiness hacks, and a few ideas to help you wrap up the weekend with a smile.

15:37And starting in September, we're giving your Monday mornings a lift too. Our new Wake Up Happy text campaign will send you a tiny dose of encouragement to start your week feeling grounded, supported, and ready for whatever comes next. So you can end your Sunday with a smile and begin your Monday with a little spark of joy. Watch for more details when you sign up for Sunday Sillies under the Connect tab at livehappy.com. And let a happier week find you.

16:08And now, let's hear more from Tom Rosher. One thing that struck me, because you talk about embracing silliness requires overcoming embarrassment. And we don't like being embarrassed. And even as you stated, even if you're by yourself, you feel silly and awkward and embarrassed. But you said in your book, and I'm going to quote this, I try to find the border where embarrassment begins and then I cross it. So how do you do that? How do you find that ability to push yourself across that line of embarrassment to actively seek that out? And then what kind of reward, what shifts in your brain when you do that?

16:50I do come to a moment where, and I'm throwing in things that make me even sillier, right? Like I'm pretending I'm in a float waving to people or that I'm marching or that I'm playing a fife on the 4th of July, marching down Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C. I just try to throw in more things that make it more embarrassing. And then I usually come to a border or a barrier was like, okay, you've gone too far. You're an idiot. You're humiliating yourself. But there's no one here, right? You're humiliating yourself. And then just to go, that mood can't last either. I withdraw and I think, oh, you're right.

17:36I'm an idiot. Or I go through it and say like, hell are you? I'm going through it. And then I go through and then usually I break into laughter and it's a relief. But here's the thing that's interesting. The when I'm all alone and I do something that feels embarrassing, it's proof that the culture is in my head. Oh, my gosh. I love that. Yeah. Right. Because how can I be embarrassed? There's no one here. And yet everyone's here because I've given them space in my head. And so Brene Brown put this in the book Rising Strong, where an editor asked her, said, what is the seal of liberation? And that Nietzsche said, it's to be no longer embarrassed in front of yourself or to have no shame in front of yourself.

18:29And if that's the seal of liberation, it means you have expelled culture from your mind. And there's no one because people can only embarrass me if they form an alliance with an inner accuser that I have. And if that inner accuser is gone, they have no leverage over me. And so that's really the exciting thing about being embarrassed. And you go through your embarrassment is you are taking on the culture right now. It's like nature. Martha Beck does this brilliantly in her book, The Way of Integrity. There's a battle constantly going on between nature and culture. And you defy your nature, often damage your nature in order to accommodate culture.

19:13And so you have to win that battle for nature, but in a way that honors culture. You don't want to destroy your relationships. You don't want to destroy your reputation. So you need to manage those emotions that could get you in trouble with people and harm your relationships. On the other hand, you don't want to genuflect a culture when your nature demands a different response. The embarrassment is really it's a way to get free. That's an amazing path that most of us haven't considered, and I would dare say. And it can be difficult to find the courage to step into our silly side. And so let's talk about some tools like animals and children.

19:54How can they help us? Because I have animals and that's huge for helping me connect with silliness because that's all they are. So let's talk about that, how you can use them as stepping stones into the silly side. Well, that's a great question because there are zones in life where we're allowed to be silly. And it's as you say, little kids, puppies, dogs, all that. And so I remember when our dog Chester died, we didn't just miss him. We missed the way we were. when we were around him. And so after a pause, we got another dog and we restored silliness to our home. But for me, when I was the father of little boys, I could be as silly as I wanted.

20:39And that was great because that's the role of a father. And I also remember, honestly, my dad, which I describe in the book, was a man of many generous impulses and a lot of kindness. And he was also really grouchy at times. I'm sure nobody can relate to that. I can't understand he had five boys. What could he possibly have to get grouchy about? Oh, gosh. He would always bark at us, do what you're supposed to be doing. And we would laugh because it was his shorthand way. He couldn't articulate what he really needed because he needed his anxiety to drop down. And so his way to ask for that is to say, do what you're supposed to be doing.

21:22But I remember once we were on a trip together and my father was in the lobby of a hotel in the afternoon and all five of us boys found him. And my younger brother, Matt, said, we're just going to follow you around and embarrass you. And he said, you're not going to embarrass me. And Matt said, we will if we're naked. kid.

21:45So anyway, sometimes the playfulness of the kids gets the dad into a playful mood. But this is a long way of saying the happiest times in my home as a child was when my dad was being silly. And the silliness was like a celebration. And the silliness was a sign that everything is okay. Because you have nothing to fear from someone being silly. They're being vulnerable. They're being silly, he was an ace. He was amazing at being silly. Oh, I just, I have a good friend and I said I was going to come on your show and talk about silliness. And she talked to me about her dad when they were little girls and they had five girls.

22:27My family had five boys, but they had five girls. And she said, dad, on the way home from church, dad would pretend that the brakes had gone out. And the car, and you're going, oh, no, oh, no, we're going to make this time, we're going to make this time, it's time, we've got no brakes. And he did it in a way, they remember it as hilarious good fun, which is, wow, I'm surprised you don't remember it as a terrifying experience. Exactly, we're all going to die, oh my gosh. She had the same feeling that when dad was being silly, everything was joyful. false. That's an awesome take on it. Because yeah, oftentimes parents have too much stress, have too much on them, and they don't necessarily take the time to just be silly.

23:14Once we've surpassed that small child stage, we kind of start getting too serious too fast. I agree. I completely agree. So right now, don't know if you've noticed it, but it's a little bit challenging out there. Things are tough. It's a hard time for people in many, many ways. And that makes it even harder for people to be silly. It feels like there's kind of this weight that's always hanging behind us. No matter if we're relaxing, whatever it is we're doing, there's a reminder of the turmoil that's going on around us. So I have several entry points into this topic of the importance, why that makes it even more important to be silly.

23:58And then also, sometimes we feel guilty. People are suffering. Horrible things are happening. How can I be silly in times like these? First of all, when the culture is raging with contempt, we need to protect ourselves by creating a subculture where we treat each other well. And if we get, even in the most raging storm of political hatred, if we can find a group that agrees that we're going to treat each other well no matter what, then that group improves the lives of everyone in it. And soon people outside it as well. So first, we have to find a refuge and a place where we are going to treat each other well.

24:43And I would not, frankly, recommend that anyone try broad displays of silliness in public in these times, because they would be offensive to people. They would think, what, you have no empathy. And that's a legitimate concern. I don't demean that. I would just say, find a safe place to be silly. And by being silly, you make it even more safe. So I would say, and I say this in the book, that how can you be silly when people are suffering? And my answer is that only love can heal the world. And laughter is the gateway to love and silliness is a shortcut to laughter. So it's really a track to love because the only way we're really going to make a difference in the world is not just to be meaner and nastier than the other people and fight them harder, but rather to try to open to the grace that is around us, that surrounds us, and let it flow in us so we can reach out with grace to people who are on the other side.

25:57That's the only way. Even reducing the antagonism toward the other side isn't going to change things. It's active gestures of dignity, honoring the dignity of the other side, treating the other side with respect, listening carefully, giving people the benefit of the doubt, acknowledging what people are going through, understanding that whatever behavior you're troubled by, that doesn't define them. They are larger than that. They are capable of more than that. That treating people with dignity can encourage people's best and discourage their worst. So the silliness can be a part of giving you the grace to look differently at the other side.

26:45But again, it needs to be in a small, safe group of people who are trying to hold together during the storm. When things are really dark, one of the darkest parts about the darkness is it makes us think love is irresponsible and love is the only way out, right? To be generous, to be gracious, to be charitable is the only way out. And just when we need it most is when it seems like it's not safe to practice it. So we have to find a safe place to practice silliness and understand how it sustains us. And it can prepare us to be more gracious to the people on the other side of whatever dispute we're having.

27:32So million dollar question then is how do people start that? Where do they start the process of exploring their silly side of discovering it? For some, that may have been buried for years and shut down. What are simple steps to get that started? I think it's going to be a different path for everyone, and it depends on people's privacy. It's like, where can you find a moment of privacy? Is it in your car? And being in your car, are you able to sing, for example? Are you comfortable singing? Are you comfortable dancing? I'm in this office. It's a renovated garage where I work. And it's a wall of windows.

28:16And outside the windows is a garden. And I was dancing one day. No one here but me. And I had music on and I was dancing. And someone came to do gardening work. and they were like pulling weeds. They had sort of an angry, I'm working too hard, you know, it's too hot out here, kind of face on, and they were yanking weeds. And I laughed at it, but I shut down the dancing. I couldn't bear it. I couldn't bear it. If he could have looked at me at any moment, and the contrast between my lighthearted dancing around and him sort of grimly pulling weeds was too much for me to imagine. So dancing is something that people can find.

29:02I mean, if you're a gifted dancer, it's not going to embarrass you, right? But if you're a clumsy dancer, maybe that's good. Find something that you're kind of clumsy at. Or go play a child's game. Or go do a nursery rhyme. Or do like the itsy bitsy spider, complete with the cute hand gestures. A child's game, child's play, reciting a poem, singing a nursery rhyme, a song or something like that. These are childlike activities are often something you would do with a child, but boy, you would never do it by yourself because that would be embarrassing. So I would start with that and people will know from the inner feeling they have how deep the embarrassment is and keep it to what you can manage.