Why Mattering Matters With Rebecca Newberger Goldstein

0:03Thank you for joining us for episode 555 of Live Happy Now. All of us want to feel like we matter, but this week's guest is here to explain why it's not just a want, it's a need. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and today I'm joined by philosophy professor and author Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, whose latest book is The Mattering Instinct, How Our Deepest Desire Drives Us and Divides Us. she's here to talk about how our need to feel that our lives matter can open the door to more empathy and compassion but also fuels some of the deep social conflicts we're experiencing right now let's have a listen Rebecca thank you so much for coming on the show with me today it's such a pleasure this is such a wonderful topic and it's one that you say has been on your mind for quite a few years so to give our readers some context tell us about that Yeah, quite a few years.

0:56A few decades. Yeah, decades, yes. I am trained as a philosopher and a professor of philosophy, but I did what actually my colleagues have thought was a kind of goofing off thing. When I'm still very young and I'm still untenured, I wrote a novel. It was a philosophical novel, but it was called The Mind-Body Problem. and I sold it to an editor and then the editor said to me at one point you know I don't understand your protagonist she's very smart she's a very good looking sexually desirable which made it a very sexy novel but she's so unhappy you know what does she have to be unhappy about and so I thought about that for a while and then I heard her telling me because that's one of the really cool things about writing novels.

1:44You actually hear your characters talk to you. Then you think, oh, well, either I'm going psychotic or this is the artistic process. And she said, because I don't matter in the way that most matters to me. And yes, she was sexually desirable and very smart, you know, and all these good things going for her. But what she wanted, the thing that most mattered to her wasn't being fulfilled, and she was miserable. And that was over four decades ago. That was 11 books ago. And ever since then, I have been so interested in this question of mattering, of the mattering, what I call the mattering instinct, why we have it, and I think all human beings do and how differently it manifests in us.

2:35And that that gives rise to some of the deepest and most irresolvable controversies between us. And so I've just been talking to people, you know, off the record, if you sit next to me on a bus or train or plane and you want to chat, that's what we're going to end up chatting about. Your mattering project, how do you go about it? What are the things that could make you feel like you're getting your life all wrong. I found that so interesting that one that a product of your own creation that came from your own mind, the character that was living in you somehow, inspired this deep journey and investigation and that it stayed with you so profoundly through all these years.

3:18I found that so fascinating. And I wondered what then made you realize, okay, this is a time to dig into it as a book? And why was this the right time? The way these ideas grew in me, and over the many decades of talking to so many people, and a theory began to develop a really original theory. But it seemed to me for all those years, okay, this is the way I'm making sense of the world. And I shared it with a lot of people. And they found it clarifying as well. But it seemed too big. I wasn't ready to tackle it. And I'm in general suspicious of big theories, especially my own. I'm a philosopher.

4:03We are taught to be very questioning, very skeptical, including of our own ideas. And that's one of the reasons that I spoke about it. I gave a lot of talks about it. I wanted pushback. I wanted objections. I wanted to test it, you know, and especially among other philosophers, all of whom were very pugilistic, were very used to bringing counterexamples and objections I wanted to air it. And so, but then given this political climate, and when we're all so much against each other, not seeing the commonality between us, how we're all going after, in some sense, the same thing, we were trying to justify our own lives, we're trying to live lives that we can regard as meaningful in our own eyes, in our own eyes, which is a noble and dignified thing to try to do.

4:52But we're so opposed to each other. And there doesn't seem to be enough mattering to go around. So we're squabbling like children under a pinata. We're trying to grab as much mattering as we can. I thought this is the right moment. I'm just going to risk it. I'm going to try to write a really clear book. And here's a new framework for trying to see what we have in common, how we're different, how our deep diversity is manifested in these different ways we go about it. But to see each other, you know, as fellow humans, it's hard to be human. That is one of the things that the takeaways that I come away with, with this book, it's hard, and we should see each other with the maximum amount of mercy of which we're capable.

5:37That is absolutely beautiful. And what's so interesting is that mattering is something that all people are striving for, but we don't frame it as mattering. It's like, I want to be heard. We have these other phrases for it. And your book really breaks that down as like, okay, this is this instinct. And this is I want to ask you about that. It's really interesting and important to note that you refer to the mattering instinct as a longing and not a need. Exactly. So let's talk about that. Why is that? And what does that mean for us? Exactly. Yeah, I love that word longing. I mean, it's long term.

6:13I mean, the word longest is already in there. And the thing about, so maybe I should first see what I mean by mattering. And we talk about what matters and who matters. And that question of who matters really matters to us because we all want to be among those who matter. We're not wasting our lives, our short time here on earth. And what we mean in all of these examples is being deserving of attention. and ultimately the attention of which we want to be deserving is our own. We have to live with ourselves 24-7. It's a long-term process. And we're able to step outside of ourselves and see that we give ourselves so much attention.

6:56I mean, each of us are the thing to which we pay the most attention. We have to. That's a biological need, you know, to pay attention to ourselves. We're trying to strive and to flourish. And that takes a tremendous amount of energy and attention. But we are able to say, am I truly deserving of this? And I think that that is wonderful that we ask this question of ourselves. We want to be deserving of all the attention that we actually have to give ourselves. And so we ask the question, what do I have to do to be deserving? And we come up with these very different answers. But it is what philosophers call a normative question.

7:35It involves norms of justification. We use different styles of justification. Some of us try to answer it in terms of religious or spiritual ways, you know, that I matter to the creator who intentionally created me. And I have some role to play in the narrative of eternity. Some of us try to answer it in terms of our relationships. Some of us try to answer it in terms of our achievements. Some of us try to answer it competitively. I've noticed over the years that some people become a little self-conscious when I ask them about their means of mattering because they understand it is mattering more than others.

8:11They see it as a zero. So we have these very different ways of going about it. And the longing comes from, in order to get on with our lives, we have to decide how we're going to do this. And we go about what I call mattering projects, these long-term projects. And none of us know really what the right way is. even the religious answer, it requires a leap of faith. And one person's religion may tell them to behave this way. Another person's religion tells them to behave another way. There is a longing because there's always doubt whether we're actually succeeding in living a life that matters.

8:52And that makes it, you know, there's no, we have to get on with this in order to live, but we never really know if we're doing it right. And that makes being a human very, very difficult. Again, we should have maximum mercy and charity and tolerance for each other. And we're not taught about mattering. We are taught what matters to you, like what matters to me, like causes with animals, being good to people, things like that. But we're not taught so much of the inward focus of how do I make myself matter. Yes. And that's going to vary among us. And we're going to have to recognize this, to acknowledge this.

9:36There's never going to be complete agreement on how to go about mattering. But that doesn't mean that there are no objective criteria to judge. Some ways are not so very good. They're not good for the person themselves, they're not morally good. They're right. They are. If the way that I have to achieve mattering is at the cost of other people feeling that they matter less, this is not a good way to go about mattering. And we see a lot of that in our society. We see, especially right now, we see that going on. So how do we kind of, as bystanders in this realm that we're living in, how do we play a role in changing that?

10:24I mean, the first thing is, you know, to take care of yourself in the sense of get your own mannering project, right? And I, you know, I come up with a general way of trying to assess what's a good way for yourself, but for other creatures, for the planet itself to these considerations have to come into your life as well. And so in general, the more well-being we are making in terms of our mattering project, well-being for ourselves, yes, we have to take care of ourselves. But in general, the well-being of other humans, of sentient creatures. I'm a very strong animal lover, vegetarian, which is a very strong animal lover, you know, and the planet at large.

11:17If I decide that my mattering, you know, in order for me to feel that I have to matter, I have to invade Poland. Not good, not good. And I must be stopped. So, you know, that this in general, all the good things in life demand more order than disorder. There's a certain principle in science, a very deep principle. It's called the law of entropy. Entropy is disorder. And all living systems, including us, but all living systems from the bacteria to us have to push back against entropy. Entropy is the force towards disorder. It's unraveling. It's destructiveness. It's death. And that is what every living system, including us, is fighting against.

12:04It's viva la resistance. I always say that. That's what life is, resistance against this. So if we want to look for some general criterion for distinguishing between good ways and bad ways that everybody can agree on, religious people as well as secularists, Republicans as well as Democrats, wherever you are on what I call the Mannerly map, let's look at what life itself has to contend with, what all of us are contending with, going for order as opposed to disorder, order in our own lives and other lives in the life of the planet. That's what we're battling. And so that, you know, to me, if you want to look for the meaning of life, that's the meaning of life.

12:52You know, some things are better than others. Happiness is better than suffering. Beauty is better than ugliness. Flourishing is better than not flourishing. Knowledge is better than ignorance. Clarity is better than confusion. All of these things that we recognize, some things are better than others. All of them, the thing that is better requires are battling against disorder, are battling against entropy. So my way of assessing this thing is, is my life or the lives of others, is it counter-entropic? Are we working with entropy towards destruction, towards suffering, towards not flourishing, towards death, not only our own, but at large or not?

13:39And I like that because it does give us a framework, kind of a checks and balance, and make sure that our approach to mattering is not too selfish. I love the fact that it embraces what is good for others while also helping support our own well-being. We'll be right back with more of Live Happy Now.

14:03And now let's hear more from Rebecca Goldstein. One point that you drive home, and I love this, you say that the need to matter drives us even more than the need to be happy. And to me, that was such a powerful observation. So can you explain what you mean by that and why that is? Well, you know, so many of us take on mattering projects, you know, the kind of things that really give us a reason to live, to get up in the morning, to push on with the difficult thing of being a human being. I just can't stress that enough. It is hard to be human because we're in this business of justifying ourselves.

14:43That makes it so much harder. We take on mannering projects that are frustrating, that lead to disappointment. I mean, I'm a philosopher, right? That is my mannering project. I'm also a mother. I'm also a grandmother. Mothering young children, a lot of it is very unhappy. In fact, psychologists have done studies on this, that people who have young children, their amount and degree of happiness actually goes down. There's a lot of worry. There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of frustration. There's a lot of boredom. I mean, how many times can you listen to that shark song? You know, or being a philosopher, my God, you know, all of the frustration, all of the very, very difficult work.

15:30And yet I wouldn't trade those projects for anything in the world. They make my life fulfilling. They make it meaningful. So yes, if I spent all my life on the ski slopes, I actually would be much happier. Yes, I love skiing. Yes, but this is what I need personally in order to feel like I'm leading a meaningful life. I wouldn't recommend it for everybody. That's the thing. We have to, you know, deep in our own selves, find what answers to our temperament, to our talents, to our interests, and form our mattering projects accordingly. but also take into account always, always the moral dimension.

16:12How much, you know, am I fighting against entropy or am I on the side of entropy? You want to fight entropy at large, not just in your own life. Absolutely. And we do as adults, we get on this treadmill. We have things we have to do. We start forgetting what matters to us because we have so many other, we have priorities, we have obligations and those things, especially women, end up pushing those aside. So how does someone reconnect? You talk about mattering projects. How does someone rediscover what lights them up and what makes them matter? Yeah, think about that feeling of expansiveness that you had when you were going about certain activities, you know, that feeling of life's potential.

17:02Oh, this is what I was need to do and you know try to connect with that I think all of us all of us know what that feels like it could be tending your garden you know it doesn't have to be something big it's so many times when I start talking about mannering people assume that I'm talking about making a difference in the world you know and like right Steve Jobs had said you know live so that you make a dent in the future of the world, that's not what we're meant to do, you know, to make a dent in the future of the world. The most important thing you can do is to live your, it's two things, live for yourself a fulfilling and expansive, in your own way, a creative life.

17:49There's nothing more life fulfilling than feeling some sort of creativity and nurturing that and cultivating that. But, and it can be, you know, and raising flourishing children. That is creative. I mean, there's so many. Creative means working against entropy is what it means. So it's very, very broad. Very individual. Can you tell me how it seems to walk hand in hand down the path with purpose, but how does it differ? How does a sense of mattering differ from a sense of purpose? Yes. I think the mattering is the deep psychological, you know, that there is, there are two, as I said, two fundamental needs that every human has.

18:30One is for deep connections with others, all of us, no matter. I mean, even if you are what I call a heroic striver and you're mattering, you need to fulfill some standard of excellence, you know. But nevertheless, all of us, we are gregarious creatures and we are evolved from gregarious creatures. Some deep connections with others is necessary for all of us. But then there is also this mattering thing. And that is truly different for we share it, but we go about realizing it in entirely different ways. And one of the things is, I think that this leads to some of the deepest sources of intolerance.

19:11We stake our lives on the answer that we give to this longing. You know, it's a longing because we never know for sure. You know, in my work as a philosopher, you know, it may come to nothing, you know, it may be nothing. And I don't know, you know, I can't know for sure. But we stake our lives on it. And therefore, when we see other people living according to their other values, this is what makes us value-seeking creatures. When we see other people living according to other norms of justification, we feel it almost like an affront. Wait a minute, if mine is right, then yours must be wrong. And this can lead to tremendous altercations and some of the deepest controversies between us.

19:53So I think that it's good to always keep in mind that none of us are really certain here. The thing we ought to cultivate is tolerance for one another and deep sympathy for the struggle that we're all going through. I love that. And especially right now, we're living in a time when entire populations are kind of being discounted and written off. Yes. And what happens when a population, when a group of people starts to feel like their lives don't matter? Or it's not just an individual thing, but we see entire segments being told they don't. that they don't matter. Yes, what happens is a great sense of anger, aggrievement, resentment.

20:35And if they join together politically, which is what tends to happen, you know, we have societal and political turmoil. Every human being has to feel that they matter. It is just a fundamental instinct in us. And if you make someone feel that they don't, you know, they can be very, very depressed. I do a tremendous number of interviews with people just because it's the most interesting thing for me to talk about with people. And people love it. Because when I question people about their own mattering, they feel like they matter. Here I am. Absolutely. You're asking them questions about them. Exactly.

21:15You know, and so, you know, this is the key to wonderful conversations is to question people about this. And it's also just a key to treating each other correctly. But if you have a whole group of people who are targeted, feeling that they don't matter, and if they get together, they are going to make trouble. One of the people that I spoke to, and he's, my book is filled with stories, you know, because theory is one thing, but the important thing are stories, right? How does this actually play out in real lives? But one of the stories is somebody who, he was a neo-Nazi skinhead. I love this story.

21:52Yeah. A committed, you know, I am a Jewish person. My Hungarian family was in fact killed off, you know, before I was born by Nazis. So we are natural enemies. We are close friends now, he and I. But, you know, he was made to feel as if he didn't matter at all. He came from terrible family circumstances, just terrible. And he was a depressed young man. And then he came into contact with some neo-Nazis and they told him, you matter. Look into the mirror. You are a white male, heterosexual American. These other people are stealing. You're mattering for you. These, the way they refer to people of color were mud people.

22:37These mud people are stealing what rightfully belongs to you. And you know who's behind it, the Jews. And this was like throwing a life raft to a drowning person. He was drowning. And he became, he's a very smart guy. He's a funny guy. He's a good looking and charming guy. He became a real leader in the neo-Nazi movement. And then he changed. And the story of his change is a story of tremendous hope. And what we have to do when whole groups of people who are feeling left out, and so many people are feeling left out, because there's a sense that there's just not enough mattering to go around. And the elites are grabbing it all.

23:21It's not just that they have all the money, but they have all the mattering. That is the message that we're getting. Exactly. And this is a crisis of mattering. And this is something that we, as a species, will not tolerate. So, you know, social and political upsets arise from this kind of inequality, inequality of mattering. So what advice do you have for people who are listening, who are starting to feel marginalized, who started to feel like they don't matter? And maybe it's not because they're part of a particular group. Maybe it's a mother who has been doing nothing but picking up toys and scraping cereal off of the bottom of a tray for, you know, three years.

24:02So what do you say to people? How do they find their sense of mattering? You know, and it's interesting because I can give, as a philosopher, I can give an abstract argument for why all of us matter, that the very longing to matter makes us matter. There is an intrinsic human dignity in this longing itself. But that kind of general theoretical answer is not going to do it. You want to know of you, your life. You know, you pay so much attention to yourself. You have to. Are you deserving of all this attention? And what's so special about you that you pay so much attention to yourself, right? We're all ourselves.

24:42What is it? You're feeling that way. It's really, really important for you to pay attention to that and to address it and to find, you know, what would be the change in your life? What could you build on that would make you feel like you are contributing something of value? It can often be, and I've found this with a lot of people, just reframing your life, not looking about it in terms of the day-to-day, you know, scraping the crumbs off the couch cushions and trying to get your kid to go to sleep. But, you know, the amount of what you're doing for this life, you know, what you're giving for this life, you know, so that this person can flourish.

25:27So often it's, you know, to look at your own life in more generous terms. But think about what would you love to change about your life and what would build on the most creative, expansive, joyful feelings that you've had and try to cultivate that more. But as I say, it's often a matter of reframing it. So your book does give a lot of insights. I love that it's so packed with stories and gives us such inspiration. What is it that you most hope that this book accomplishes with readers? That is very easy for me to answer. More charity, more kindness towards one another. You know, to understand is not necessarily to forgive.

26:16A lot of people really do go about trying to matter at the expense of other people. And that is wrong. That is wrong. We all have the right to feel like we matter. It's so important to all of us. And we all do matter. Of this, I know. This, I know for sure. Understanding is kind of the first step, you know, to be able to look at each other with as much sympathy, empathy as possible, even when we're appalled. And believe me, I am very appalled by what I see going on, both on the historical, political scale, but also, you know, more locally in my own life. There's a lot to appall on. But, you know, to understand what's going on, it changes the emotions, you know.

27:01And I find that it's a way of overcoming my most negative emotions, anger, you know, hatred. It's almost like a Zen exercise that I go through as I read the morning paper. Why is this person acting this way? How is his way of going about life? I see why it's wrong, but try to see the deeper reason. That is really what I would hope that we would come to a deeper understanding. And with understanding, more sympathy, more tolerance, more kindness. There have to be changes made. You know, people have to feel that there is enough mattering to go around because we will not stand. People will not stand for this.

27:46Everybody takes their life seriously. They have a right to take their life seriously. Nobody should be made to feel as if they don't count. I love that. That is a fantastic way to wrap this up. Rebecca, we are going to tell our listeners how they can find you, how they can find your book, how they there's a lot of you to find. And we're going to lead them there. But I thank you for sitting down with me, taking this time. This is a beautiful book. It's unlike anything that we have seen here on Live Happy. It's a topic we haven't even broached before. So I appreciate you for bringing that to us and just for being on the show with me today.

28:22Well, thank you so much, Paula. And I can say that what you are doing is counterentropic. So yes to you and yes to your work. Thank you. I appreciate that.