Celebrating Our Great American Cuisine

21:10And yes, that is American food, I guess. But there's also just so many dishes that are so specific to a city or a state and usually influenced through American history, whether that's immigration. Right, of course. Or, you know, we have a lot of dishes in this book where it's coming from enslaved people and the diaspora, the African diaspora. We also have dishes in here that are totally just built out of America's like hustle and bustle and necessity. Like, so many of these dishes were designed to feed, like, blue-collar, working-class people or just needed to be quick enough that you could get it on your way to work.

21:47Right. So there's something about the United States that's uniquely different than, I think, a lot of other places around the world, and I think that this book just highlights that. So it is sold worldwide, and I hope, you know, there are readers beyond America that pick this book up and learn to love and read and maybe cook these dishes at home as well.

22:04Shelley:Well, as an aside, did you ever want to open up a restaurant or a bar? So it's so funny. I've, no, the answer is no. And I have friends who have invested in restaurants. I've had the last person I worked for just retired, and he's now invested in Laotian Thai restaurant. And I said, this is a great way to lose money. You could buy a boat or you could invest in a restaurant. But if people have the means to support a restaurant, absolutely do that. I don't want to discourage people from doing that. But it's a ton of work. I mean, I've been inculcated in, like I told you, before we met that I feel like and I think I am a professional diner I'm turning Karan into being a professional diner I love that I'm learning from the bad stuff thank you I feel that way and I love everything about it and I love the people and I love the waiters I love the whole thing but I have come to appreciate all of the theatrics and the drama and the stress of really being in this industry it's a grueling industry but it's a rewarding creative supportive community especially in washington dc so most of my friends are in the restaurant industry chefs owners restaurateurs you name it um i hilariously i only worked a week at a restaurant in chevy chase and um as a high schooler i quickly learned that i'd rather go back and work for my dad's construction company which was grueling work and like i'd be like summer since age 12 I've worked with him since I was a young kid and I would work summer hours with him doing heavy work outside and I literally went back to working with my father for his construction company versus being in the restaurant industry which speaks to how hard it is and so I have the utmost support and love for the community I think using the gifts that I have as a writer to support the people in that community is how I very much view this.

24:04And so I'll continue to do that through my career and hopefully support my friends throughout my lifetime.

24:10Shelley:Well, okay. So back to the book. I didn't know, first of all, I've never had shoe fly pie. And also I didn't know that it was created during the hundredth anniversary of the country. So talk a little bit about that. There's so many recipes in this book that celebrate the like centennial of America, which I think is fascinating. Yeah. Shoe fly pie is just kind of this like like sugary base pie from Pennsylvania. Right. Really has these influences of like Amish culture and like kind of the heritage of the Pennsylvania Dutch country. But there's just all of these recipes. There's also something known as election cake from New York that's like unique to what would be made at like elections back in the centennial.

24:53It's not red, white, and blue, but it's just something that they would make to celebrate like election times. And so I think that like one of the fascinating things about American history is you can have these moments and dishes that also are very celebratory. Yeah. I also think of, like, the World's Fairs that America has hosted throughout the many years. And ice cream cones came from the World's Fair and hot dogs. Like, we have all of these different unique ingredients that show up at these major festivals and fair fairs. So, you know, America is very much a place where we celebrate our identity and our unified country.

25:26So, yeah, there probably will be some really unique dishes to come for us in the future, too. It's here. I know, right.

25:32Shelley:But what is, why is shoot fly pie called shoot fly pie? Like, actually get into it. Honestly, this is not a pie that we did a deep dive on. It's one of these things. You did, though. Well, I mean, I read that it was the 100th anniversary. It's not a recipe in the book. But this is just, this is a pie that comes from Pennsylvania. It's a unique pie because I think it has sort of a Dutch country throwback to it. And it predates America's centennial. I think they were looking for a pie to celebrate America's 100th birthday. And so they just selected this pie from America's history to that point. But so many dishes in the book do show up throughout time and throughout our history at different time periods.

26:14We have dishes from like as recent as the 1980s. Actually, since we're talking about Pennsylvania from Pittsburgh, there's something known as a Pittsburgh salad, which. Oh, I saw that. If you're not from Pittsburgh, nobody has.

26:29Shelley:I haven't been to Pittsburgh since my cousin's bar mitzvah. And only God knows when. So this is a recipe in the book. If you go into any bar or restaurant in Pittsburgh, there's always going to be a Pittsburgh salad on the menu. Like if we were at a restaurant like Peacock, they'd have a Pittsburgh salad on the menu in Pittsburgh. But it's simply like a protein-based salad. It's a protein-based salad. So it has either steak or chicken, kind of like a Cobb salad. But on top of the salad, you put hot French fries and then you kind of get some cheese on top of the fries, which eventually. Did you say steak?

27:04Steaker, chicken is the protein and then buttermilk ranch dressing. So it's really the opposite of a salad. It's like.

27:09Shelley:But that's my kind of salad. It's my kind of salad, too. And I didn't know anything about this until I married my wife and started going to Pittsburgh. And I was like, this is such a crazy dish. And like, how did this come to be? And it came from literally a mistake order. there was a drive-in near Pittsburgh where they served cheeseburgers, and a woman in the 1980s ordered a burger without the bun. Right, because she was neurotic about the bread, which is hilarious. Exactly, cheers. Like pre-Atkins, like before the Atkins diet. Right, right, right. So she ordered a burger without the bun, and they didn't know what to do, and so the line cook at the time just put some French fries on salad with the burger.

27:47Right, it's so funny that he added the French fries on top. And Pittsburgh will put French fries on anything. They have, obviously, Permantee Brothers is a sandwich company up there with many restaurants. It's kind of a chain now with French fries in the sandwich. But it, to me, is a definitive Pittsburgh dish because if you're not from that city, you really don't know what it is. And so we took a recipe from one of the local restaurants there. You could make this easily at home. My wife and I make this all the time at home, like when we don't know what we want for dinner. We just air fry up some frozen French fries, literally, and create a salad.

28:18And we make Pittsburgh salad nights. That's hilarious. It's really fun, and that's the beauty of American cuisine. It doesn't have to be fancy. It can actually become a dish because it was a complete mistake, and now it's just something that everyone has adapted and is eating, which is kind of wild.

28:34Shelley:Well, that sounds very French to me, too. Yes. But would you say American cuisine is comfort food? It's comfort food, but it's also very iterative. I think like dishes can be reinterpreted over time. And I think a perfect example of this is Maryland crab soup, which is like. Oh, I saw that. She crab versus Maryland crab. And that's a staple like of my. I love it. My childhood. Maryland crab soup is something we always had. Summer, like talking about eating hot soups in summer. I love hot soup in summer. And like if you go to a crab house right now in July and it's 102 degrees, you're going to order Maryland crab soup.

29:16Shelley:Oh, my God, my husband is still eating French onion soup. We're laughing because Karan doesn't like cold soup. Now she's getting a rep. Soup's in summer. I love it. Cold soup is amazing. When it's hot out, I kind of like to sweat more. So, like, I'm on board. I'm on board with it. Oh, my gosh. But the Maryland crab soup, going back to that, I think is a really unique dish. And it's emblematic of, like, American history to me because this is a soup that originally was called shoot crab soup down in Charleston. Right. It definitely came from the contributions of enslaved people. The Gullah people of South Carolina brought so many African spices and traditions to America.

29:53And seafood stews like this basically became what was she crab soup in Charleston. And so in Charleston, you use crab roe, which is crab eggs, to make the soup and give it its bright orange color. in Maryland there are actual laws where you cannot harvest and catch female crabs because we want to grow the crab population in the Chesapeake Bay so the crab soup here in Maryland is missing that crab row that is basically the key ingredient to sheet crab soup in Charleston but you know I think here we just overdo it with Old Bay seasoning is what I tell people right and that's what we make it created by a German Jew which was very exciting exactly from Baltimore so that's amazing Jewish American food history we can go into that

30:37Shelley:I read your whole section and so you know what's really interesting though is that this soup today now if you go out to St. Michael's Maryland which is like one of my favorite places on the eastern shore it's an incredible restaurant called Roo's and Chef Mike Carell who's out there he is now making this Maryland crab soup with instead of using like fish instead of using crab roe he uses a fish roe but it's a Filipino fish roe paste and it speaks to like this new wave of immigration in Maryland from the Filipino American community and so I think that this soup is now becoming something even more because of the ingredients he's added into the soup so yeah it's a soup that's forever changing in American history it was she crab soup in Charleston it's Maryland crab soup here in Maryland and now we're getting new ingredients added into the mix as well so that's that to me is America in general so I really encourage people if there's something in the book that you may have not have tried before right go check it out and travel to that place or that community get to know the story behind these dishes because it's going to teach you something about American history it's going to show you something that you didn't know before and so I think that's kind of the beauty of this book overall oh there's so much about it well so you're thin yes yeah and so everybody I mean I get this question all the time.

32:00Shelley:Right, right, right. People ask me how I can go out to lunch so often, but same to you. Like, how do you go out so often? Blessed with great family genetics, tall, skinny people. Right, right. Hilariously, my mom's family, their last name is The Shorts, but they're all tall people over 6 '3 and above. Oh, my goodness. Very tall, skinny family. But also, I love cooking at home. I love taking dishes and recreating the ones that I eat at restaurants. So as much as I'm eating out at restaurants, especially right now with a newborn, I am at home cooking. Just had paella the other night. Tonight we're going to throw some nice grills from Union Market on the barbecue and just grill some steaks out back.

32:50So to me, I love cooking at home. I'm a person that loves trial and error cooking. so I'm not so good at sticking to recipes per se. Right. And my favorite thing about this book is we give people a lot of shortcuts to say like, okay, if you don't want to make the pie crust, you can actually just buy pie crust. Just get it. Right. I saw that. If you don't want to make the sausage, like just go buy the sausage. So it's very like, I like cookbooks that give everyone grace and space to like take side cuts or save time when they're in a hurry.

33:19Shelley:Well, I love the whole, this is going to take you 30 minutes and it'll feed like eight people. You know, like obviously the important stuff. There are some complicated dishes in this book. Like we have Smith Island cake, which is an incredible, beautiful cake from Maryland and it has many layers. Oh, that's the layered one that they would take on the boat? It's a yellow cake. It's a yellow cake with like several layers and there's chocolate frosting between each layer. This was actually the wedding cake that my wife and I had at our wedding. You're kidding. It's Maryland's official state cake, I think.

33:52according to the law that they passed. But this is a cake that was served in the 1800s to oystermen who had worked the waters of the Chesapeake Bay. There's a fishing community, a small island community in the middle of Chesapeake Bay called Smith Island. And so the idea was the wives would make this really sugary, thinly layered cake because if you took it on the water without refrigeration at the time, the sugar could preserve it over time.

34:18Shelley:Isn't that so interesting? There's so many innovations in American cuisine that it's like, wow, we've come a long way. You're listening to Lunch with Shelly. So I guess you've always loved food, as you've described, and you created sort of your best life because you get to go and taste everything. Do you think that you're discerning? Like, are there things that you're like, you guys stink and try again? Or like, how do you do that? Are you a critic? I try, no, and I'm not a restaurant critic. I'm not Tom Sitsuma. I try to really champion and support restaurants that I love and enjoy going to. So if I'm not writing about a restaurant, that's probably on purpose.

34:59Like, there are definitely restaurants in D.C. that I tend to avoid because it's just a boring menu. Or I know the food is like hit or miss sometimes. But my whole goal as a writer is to get people, my audience, to visit and support local restaurants, local chefs that are doing really cool and creative things. And I think there's always stories behind dishes. And people come to these restaurants, they order the dish, but they have no idea around what it took to make that dish or where it came from.

35:29Shelley:I love that you're so focused on that aspect. Well, where do you love to eat right now? Where do I not love to eat? I just, last night, my wife, so my in-laws are in town from Pittsburgh. They just met our daughter for the first time. You're kidding. Yeah, yeah. We did our first, like, night out, and we did dinner. Wait, so your wife's parents were not there for the birth? How did you manage that? Being in Pittsburgh, yeah, I know. It's like, we have big families, so we also, like, very much, like, give our families the time and the place to come see us. But yeah, we went to Fish Shop on the Wharf, which is an incredibly great local Chesapeake Bay.

36:09Everything on the menu. Wait, it's called Fish? Fish Shop. It's at the Wharf. And it's basically everything on the menu from the oysters to the crab cakes to the rockfish is coming from the Chesapeake Bay. So it's a great example of a restaurant that is truly sourcing sustainably and locally. But we had an incredible meal there last night. Chef Rio Montez is the chef there, and she's an incredibly talented person. Would encourage everyone to go check that one out. It's a new restaurant. It also has crab feasts in the summer, so you can do crab feasts there. And what better place to have crabs than right by the Potomac River?

36:47Right. It's just a beautiful restaurant.

36:49Shelley:Interesting. And did your in-laws like it? They loved it. And can I tell you, they are working class, blue-collar Pittsburgh people, So they don't go, they don't go, they, my mother-in-law's not a big like seafood eater, but if I take her out with me to eat, they're always willing to try something new, which I think is so fascinating. So like they immediately, we sat down and they read the menu and they were so intimidated by it. And so, you know, I just said, don't worry, like we'll order some dishes. We're going to share everything. Right. You can try everything. So yeah, it's great. I love actually bringing people to the table who maybe don't get to go out all the time and eat at very fancy places.

37:35Because it's really rewarding and it's really special to have these shared experiences with people who are going to always remember that meal that they had. I agree.

37:45Shelley:It's very exciting, particularly when someone goes out of their comfort zone. Yes, totally. Well, let's talk about the other part, though, of your gig. So it's food and cocktails. Yeah, so I've been a cocktail writer for the majority of my food writing career. And what's really fun is I used to run a cocktail column where I would work with local bars around the city. And we'd put up seasonal cocktails with recipes. So, you know, everything from like the Ricky cocktail, which is an essential D.C. cocktail. If people have not had the Ricky, they should order a Ricky. I don't think I've had it. This is the drink of summer.

38:19What is it? I feel like we need to like... Yeah, I mean, I'm a very champagne wine beer person. So the Ricci is amazing because we're going to have like 102 degree heat tomorrow or whatever. The Ricci is literally half of a lime squeezed juice into your tall glass. It's a lot of ice. It can be crushed. It can be an entire cube. But it really is just soda water, gin, and lime. Oh, right. I saw you right about it. Sometimes it's topped with basil or an herb or something else. It can have many renditions. Like you could add in fresh yuzu or you could add in fresh like, you know, citrus, whatever other kind of things you want to make it your own.

38:59But this is a cocktail that I would serve at my house parties because it's a three ingredient cocktail. Right. You can fix it in a quick second. Right. When I'm hosting parties, I'm not trying to like be Ina Garten. I'm not trying to be Martha Stewart. I'm trying to do like the possible. And this to me is like a cocktail like, oh, you want a drink? I'll make this for you and I'll have it to you. Can you make it in a pitcher? You could totally make it in a pitcher pre-batch and then pour it on ice. Yeah, it's such a simple recipe. The key is just you want to overdo it on the lime. The lime is the most important part.

39:29And, like, you want to use a really quality gin. I usually use, like, a dry gin. I love European-style gins. But I also love, like, there's so many, like, Spanish-style gins that have, like, peppercorn in them or, like, the citrus flavors or herbs in them. So there's so many options you can do with your gins. And I think it's a great way. I actually have a lot of, because I was a cocktail writer, I have a lot of liquor at my house that I just don't drink because it's samples that were unsolicited and sent to my house. So I always have so much gin at my house, and I'm like, how do I offload this, and I host a party, and I just give it to my guests.

40:05Kind of a nice problem to have, but I'm not a big drinker at home, per se, but if people come over, I'm going to make a party cocktail.

40:11Shelley:Well, I, first of all, I read your entire thing, and somewhere in the Mid-Atlantic was the Ricky. Who was it named after? So, yeah, this is a really interesting, it's a Kentucky senator. And you're going to really challenge me here because I'm not going to remember his name. Well, I have the book. I'm bad with names. But his name was Ricky. Yeah, it has a - Or Senator Rick or something. Yes, it has a D.C. connection. So the idea was back in the day when lobbying literally happened at the, you know, hotels of D.C. and I think the Willard. The Willard is where lobbying was coined. There would be these meetings where you'd have, like, senators with special interests, and they'd have these cocktails.

40:49Oh, yeah, people drank at lunch. So this idea was the Shoemaker Bar, which is now where the Marriott Marquis is downtown on Pennsylvania Avenue. They had this Kentucky senator who would come and always want to do, like, a version of, like, a julep or something. And so they created this version of a gin-based drink. For the heat in the summer and kind of helping ease the pain of D.C. humidity. And the Ricky was born here, which is kind of amazing. But, yeah, there's a lot of cool history, cocktail history here in Washington, D.C. Oh, yeah. And I think, like, you go to Round Robin Bar at the Willard.

41:23You go to some of these older bars. For an amazing martini. Off the record. I love off the record. I love everything about the Hay.

41:31Shelley:I love everything about the Hay. I actually had lunch at the Hay twice last week. Amazing. I love it there. Yeah. I love learning about spirits from around the world, wine from around the world. Well, do you get buzz? Like, isn't that also what everybody asks? I don't drink as much as I do. I'm no longer, I'm about to turn 40. So drinking to me is like a much harder affair. And I love that the direction of where we're going as a drinking culture is like low spirit, low ABV. What does that mean? It just means you can have a cocktail, but maybe it's just Amaro. And it's not like, you know, maybe you're not adding in vodka or tequila or other spirits.

42:12Like you're just doing like a simple Amaro with soda or something. And that's like less, you know, that's probably like 3%, 4 % ABV, 5 % ABV. So you're not, I think when people start to understand how much alcohol is in a drink and they're drinking within their limits, It's like that. That to me is like mindful drinking. Right. And we get to a point of like, oh, yeah, you can have a cocktail. But like you're probably just going to want to have a single cocktail and not have three. So, yeah, I love a martini, but I'm always in trouble if I have have more than one.

42:39Shelley:Yeah, I'm super in trouble if I have more than two. That's a good point. Well, what do you think? Well, two things. How do you win an award for being a cocktail writer? Was it one cocktail that you just described in painful but beautiful description or detail? Yeah, I was really lucky. I worked for Edible Magazine, which at the time was owned by a publisher. Her name is Susan Abel, who's still a lifelong friend of mine. But she very much gave me the space to do a cocktail column for every issue. And so it was an award that was judged on many different stories of the column over time. but what's so cool about that was I was able to feature and profile so many different bartenders from around the city and Susan's just someone who like gives you the creative free reign to do whatever you want to do so we did stories where like I met this woman who is from Eastern Europe and she's an immigrant to the U.S.

43:36I think she's oh god I'm gonna forget if where exactly what country she's from it's not Croatia but it's somewhere near Croatia and her name's Millie but she's known in the bar world as the ice queen because she creates like orbs and art out of ice. And maybe you've seen this in drinks in D.C. Well, for sure.

43:52Shelley:And it was such a huge thing, but it continues to be a huge thing. And she's called the ice queen and Millie is the ice queen. And so we did this whole feature with a really talented photographer. Her name is Jen Chase and she shoots for the New York Times. She's an incredible local photographer. But we did this whole like Game of Thrones style, like she's the ice queen. And we like had ice blocks. Oh, that's so awesome. Made it visually stunning, but also did a really cool storytelling opportunity behind it. That's genius. Yeah, it's just fun to bring creative ideas to the forefront like that and have publishers be like, yes, go do that.

44:25Right. And not say no. Right. I was really privileged, and Susan nominated me for that award. I didn't even apply for it. I didn't even know it was happening. So, yeah, we beat out a couple of major national magazines to win that award, which was kind of amazing. Yeah. I think I beat one of the lead wine writers in the country, which was kind of unbelievable at the time. So it was very humbling. And it was like, gave me, you know, awards are very nice and recognition is always very nice. But I think taking assurance in what you're doing is actually making a difference. And people are seeing that and reading it is like really the value that I get at now.

45:02Like, I'm not really applying for awards anymore. Right. I am really just trying to write stories that I want people to love and discover. and also share with other people as well.

45:14Shelley:Well, what do you think about all these cocktails in a can? You know, so my day job is manufacturers of cans. Oh, that's right. So I love a sustainable package. So I'm actually a pretty choosy buyer. But yeah, cans are kind of interesting at the moment because there's a lot of canned wines. There's a lot of canned cocktails. There's a lot of other ready-to-drink. So much stuff. I'm kind of a huge fan of it because I'm also a lazy bartender. And sometimes if I find a brand that I'm like, oh, this is as good as what I could make and I can just open a can and pour it and have it for the summer, I'm absolutely going to do that.

45:49But yeah, I'm a huge fan of options. And also there's in the no spirit, like no ABV category, there's a brand that I love. It's called GIA, G-I-A-I-A, I think. But they make a salted margarita that's 0 % alcohol in a can. I'll drink that all summer. It tastes like I'm drinking a margarita. Really? And so if you want to have, like, a very easygoing day and just have bubbles and, like, the flavors of a margarita, like, you can do this now, which I think is so amazing. So, yeah, the zero-proof movement is huge. I think there's a lot of momentum behind it. Cans are super cool, I think, even though they've been around for forever.

46:27I love my job and the policy work that I do, but mainly I love the fact that, like, we're talking about a product that gets, like, recycled and, like, we're not talking about single-use plastics, which are to me sort of the lowest common denominator, a huge problem in our environment these days. So the more and more we can have like our values line up to not only our choice preferences on flavor and taste, but also to like our live values of environmental stewardship, I think the better off we're going to be long term. So there's so many connection points where I think your policy life intersects with like your passions.

47:00Yeah. And like the next book talk that I'm doing, which I'm really excited about in early July, I was invited to go speak to what's known as the Future Caucus, but it's like all legislators who are either Millennial or Gen Z, Republicans or Democrats, Independents, it's nonpartisan, but it's the largest gathering of Gen Z and Millennial lawmakers in the country.

47:22Shelley:Excuse me, are they lawmakers or staffers? They're lawmakers. So they're people who are elected reps that are in state legislation or at the federal level. but this is going to be the largest gathering of those people. They're coming to D.C. They're having a huge future summit in July, but we're talking about food and the power of connections when it comes to tough policy. That's fantastic. So there's a lot of ways in which my day job intersects with everything else. Well, that means that you're in the flow, right? I think so. I think everyone should try to find ways to make the things you find most interesting in life connect together.

48:00Correct. And I'm a connector heart to heart. Like I try to connect people. I try to connect things. I try to make sure if we're going to do something, let's make it matter. So that's really what core to who I am as a person.

48:10Shelley:Yeah. Well, that's marvelous. Do you think people, millennials or Gen Zers, are they as hip on the restaurant scene as my age group is? Or are they into restaurants still? Yeah, I think. I feel like they're more into fast food or I don't know. You tell me. Well, I think right now there's a huge price pressure on eating out. And so we're in just an economic situation where things are so expensive. And so it's harder to maybe go out and eat as often as you can, especially if you're on a budget. But one of the things I think that's most interesting about Gen Z as a generation is they are talking about restaurants in communities that you and I are not even on.

48:51There's something called the Belly app, which is Belly is a great tool to use if you want to find your next restaurant to go eat at. and it's a new place, but they're rating and reviewing restaurants in this app in a peer-to-peer way that is completely unique to that generation. Millennials aren't really using it. I mean, I'm a millennial who goes and Googles a restaurant and looks at the reviews online or follows Instagram. I'm still reading the post reviews and eater reviews. Yeah, exactly. So I think there's a whole new audience and a new way to reach people on restaurant and food culture. I think that the generations to come are going to be more interested I have nephews who I guess are Gen Alpha.

49:30What is that? It's like the next generation after Gen Z. No, it's like the 13-year-olds. It's like 13 to like 16, 17. They have a name? Gen Alpha. Okay. Are they going to restaurants? I have my nephews about to turn 12, and he's eating ramen with his buddies at restaurants. And they're going out without their parents doing it, too. It's kind of wild to me. I think food culture is not going anywhere. I think America is seeing right now economic headwinds. But I think generally what we're seeing is a plethora of new restaurants coming to the forefront. Different styles of service, too. Fast Casual is obviously very popular.

50:11But also there's a lot of momentum around different formats. Tail Up Goat, which is a really popular Adams Morgan restaurant. They just completely redid their setup. They're a new restaurant now, but they have, you walk in only and you order at the counter and then you sit down to eat at the restaurant. So it's a completely different setup from what it was as a sit down restaurant. So people are experimenting with different things and seeing what, seeing what works. But if you're listeners, Rye Bunny is now tail up goat. Go to Rye Bunny. It's awesome. It's a walk-in service, so it's different, but you still have the sit down opportunity there.

50:44I will also say like, I think culturally, generationally, we're using delivery apps way too much yes exactly everybody door dash right like right i'm in the thick of it right now because i have no free time i have a baby and door dash is really convenient and allows me to support the restaurants that i love but i would much prefer to go sit down at a restaurant and get meals delivered to my door quite frankly because like they show up slightly cold they're less composed like it's not the true intention of the kitchen so exactly um you know i think like if i could say one thing to younger generations it's like become a regular sit at a restaurant Yeah.

51:20Go support.

51:20Shelley:Just find a place in your neighborhood. Exactly. Walk to it. You might meet a new friend. Exactly. Sit at the bar, talk to the bartender. Don't be afraid to eat alone. Yes, exactly. Eating alone is totally cool. Yeah, yeah. Do you think that Alpha or Millennials or whatever's in between, do you think they're being nice? Gen Z, do you think they're being nice to their servers? Do you think they appreciate what it's like? I just, does anyone is my question. I think my age group does. I think the problem with the restaurant industry in general is that everyone who's not in the restaurant industry thinks that they know how the restaurant industry works.

51:52And they have no clue. They don't know how tables turn. They don't know how meal prep happens. Or what happens if you're late. Yes. Or if you stay too long. I think bad behavior on the part of customers exists beyond generations. I don't think it's an age thing. No, completely. I think being a better diner in general means you're a little bit studied up on how to be polite and have respect for the places that you frequent. And also, like, if you have a bad meal, you could be there on an off night and give it a second try. Don't immediately go to Google and complain. And still tip. Oh, my goodness.

52:29Or Yelp. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Okay.

52:31Shelley:So two other things. What is the craziest food you've ever eaten or the most surprising? That was such a good question. I've had camel before, like an aged camel, like in a sausage. Is it? Oh, in a sausage? Like an aged camel. That's a little bit better. It wasn't. Camel is like very. Is it fatty? It's gamey. It's kind of like venison. I love venison. I'm not, like gamier meats are not my forte. Oh my God. I eat buffalo all day long. Well, buffalo is okay, but like I've had wild boar and it can be really gamey. I like boar though. Yeah. There's really nothing I won't eat. I've had ants, like, obviously.

53:09Ew. Like, candied ants. Chocolate ants? Candied ants, yeah, from Mexico. They're delicious. Like, when they're coated in, like, chili pepper or seasoned well, like, ants taste really good. I used to have a column for the Washington City paper called, oh, my gosh, I can't even remember what it's called. It's, like, I want to say it was, like, the things people won't eat or whatever. But it was, like, a whole spotlight on restaurants and the funky dishes that they have. So, yeah. That's hilarious. What's the weirdest thing you've had?

53:36Shelley:I don't know. I mean, I don't think I've eaten anything terribly weird. Like, I've definitely had alligator. Yeah. I don't think I've had anything terribly weird. I've had guinea pig in Peru. Like, guinea pig is a delicacy in Peru. I've also, like, when we have whole fried fish, like, I'll eat the eyeball. Yeah. Well, I eat the roe in a lobster. Yeah, I mean, it's just kind of, it's more to be funny and to just see other people's faces. My mother eats the neck from a turkey. Yeah. And she loves tongue. Yeah. I mean, there's all sorts of things. There's all sorts of things. I'm always for trying something once.

54:15There's definitely things that I will never try again. Right, right, right. You'd be like, that was a horrible idea.

54:21Shelley:And our final and best always question is, if you could eat, if you could have lunch anywhere in the world, where would it be and what would you be eating? Oh, my gosh. Okay. I think I have a pretty rapid answer to this one. Because it was a lunch that I had and it was, I'd go there again and again and again if I could. In Mexico City, it's a cevicheria, which is a seafood restaurant. Very, very classic to Mexico City and it's called Contramar. It is some of the freshest tuna you'll ever have in your life. You can have it obviously like sashimi style. But the way I love it is a tuna tostada. And like you just sit down, it's white tablecloth service like this.

55:04You have waiters who are just like in bow ties and very old school cevicheria. But like that is I was not expecting to have like the best tuna of my life in Mexico City. I thought like I've been to Japan.

55:17Shelley:I've been to so many other places. But like the best tuna of my life was at Contramar in Mexico City. So I'd go back. I'd go back again. And the tacos are incredible, too. Yeah, that's a phenomenal answer. And actually, I'm tacking one on. What's your favorite restaurant in D.C. right now? Oh, OK. Oh, man. I like cannot. It's so hard to play favorites. I know. Because it's in my neighborhood, because it's like blocks away from me, and I go there so often. Pascual. Oh, good. Which is the sister restaurant to Lutece. Yeah. And Maison Barrevin. Right. Okay, first off, Lutece. Those owners are incredible.

55:53Yeah, the Popple Group in general. Like any restaurant the Popple Group owns. But Maison Barrevin, I just went to, is incredible. I haven't been there yet. French, you need to go there. I know, I know. But truly, Pascual for, again, Mexican food might be my favorite cuisine, actually. You might be learning this, but I love, I swear I love Italian food. I love all the other Japanese, you know, sushi. But Pascual, to me, has just an incredible array of hearth-fired cooking. It has trompa tacos, which are, like, cooked on the spit, and you just shave the meat off the spit. It has incredible ceviches.

56:28It has this whole lazy Susan of like salsas and avocados. I love that. Oh, my God. You think you've had a good margarita. Like you go there and have a margarita and you'll be like, I can't have a margarita anywhere else. So Pascual to me is great.

56:40Shelley:Can I come meet you at Pascual? You can meet me there. And can you bring Lily? We'll bring Lily. Okay. And your wife. Anytime. And I'll bring Sam. We've got to get you over to Capitol Hill. Yeah. There's a lot of good eating over there. Yes. I would love that. Well, Tim, can we just say we're friends now? Yes, we're friends officially. I'm going to come to Pasquale. Yes, we have to exchange numbers. Cheers. Yes, of course. We absolutely will do that. Thank you. Of course. Thank you, of course, to Peacock Cafe. And thank you to beautiful Karan for being here. Everybody, I hope you liked this episode as much as we enjoyed ourselves at lunch today.

57:17Shelley:Tim is a delight. I think everyone's walking away with some really good tips about cooking, about places to eat. Buy this book, Eaterland. It's absolutely gorgeous. It is definitely worth whatever price it is. And it's very patriotic. So you could give it as a gift or keep it for yourself. But it's a beautiful love letter to the cuisines of our entire nation out of one, out of many one. I'll just plug August 6th. We're actually going to be out at Ruse in St. Michael's, Maryland. So if your listeners want to come for a book signing and cocktails, it's a happy hour. August 6th out at St. Michael's Or they can meet us at Pascual Or just find me walking around Capitol Hill Oh, Geron wants to know what time at Rue's It's gonna be like a 4 o 'clock, 5 o 'clock happy hour There'll be more details to come But save the date, August 6th And it's at Rue's restaurant in St.

58:15Michael's

58:15Shelley:Teach me how to put that in the show notes I will But anyway, everyone, thank you so much For listening To this episode, of course check out other episodes at www.lunchwithshelly.com or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And in the meantime, and as always, peace, love, and lunch.