Gut Punching Inertia with Career Crush Steve Clemons!

18:07But radical centrism is not meaning that you don't have principles on the right or left. It's really this notion that status quoism is a killer, that inertia doesn't work. It's no excuse for just adopting public policy. I think what's really interesting about President Trump right now, a lot of my liberal friends go crazy when I say this. He's gut-punted. You know, he's gut-punched inertia. We all have to rethink democracy. We can't be lazy and on the sideline. You've got to figure out how institutions are supposed to work. You know, he's trying to be a king. It's just what presidents do. All presidents do it, not just Trump.

18:42He just does it more flamboyantly. But institutions have to defend their interests, and you need to kind of get back and kind of look at, okay, what does this issue really need? Well, for 80 years, we've been doing it such and such way, and oh, my God, it's going to change. Well, guess what?

18:57Shelley:Right. It needs to change, right? And so this is a moment, you know. Gut-punching inertia could even be the title of the episode. Gut-punching inertia is just, I live for gut-punching inertia. That's what a radical centrist is really about. You're listening to Lunch with Shelly. Where do you think the most interesting thinking is happening? And would it be older people? Would it be super young people? I'm not an ageist. I'm not an ageist. I don't care young or old. But I do care about freshness. Right. I do care about, you know, I have a, you know, you talked a little about Whitehall. Like I have this business.

19:34Yeah, why is it named Whitehall? I named it after my house.

19:37Shelley:Oh. Yeah, so I'll get into that in a minute. Fancy. But I created Whitehall to basically do what I've been doing at Semaphore, the Hill, Quartz, the Atlantic, other places. But I'm the CEO. Right. I'm running it the way I want. We do a lot of editorial stuff. I've done interviews with presidents, prime ministers, interviewing the Romanian foreign minister on Friday. You have all of that and that content. I've done things on critical minerals in the nation. So hot. So all of that. I'm a content creator too, but I'm doing it without a media brand or I am the media brand. Right. In this way. Yeah, you are now your own brand.

20:22Right. You're on your own brand, and you're kind of doing it in this space and kind of bringing it along. But I think the key thing is when you're in it is continuing to focus people on big questions that matter and then having this out. So I created Wide Hall to give me flexibility to do this and to do events and convening that are part of it. I lost track of your first question, but that's kind of like, you know.

20:43Shelley:Well, I was thinking, so my question is, where do you think you would find people? Like, where are the pockets of big think? I look for wisdom where it is. I sort of feel like we're at a time, I think, so coming back to White Island and you're doing all this convening, I meet tens of thousands of people every year. And I've got to tell you, it's kind of like, you know, we just had some soup, nice asparagus soup. Some stuff bubbles to the top. Great ideas. William Faulkner said, how do you write all these books? The soup was a good idea. That's what you're saying. But stuff bubbles up. There's stuff on the top and bottom.

21:16There are people that sit in the front of class, people that sit in the back of the class. You're able, when you have that many people, to say, wow, that individual has a totally unique take on something. Correct. But where are you meeting them?

21:27Shelley:That's my question. Oh, I go all around the country. The true answer is I create so many events and so many platforms. These brilliant people come to me. That's an amazing gift. It's like cheese with a mousetrap. Wow. And so, you know, when you're kind of doing this stuff, I speak at World Affairs Councils all over the country, Dubuque, Iowa, you know, the foothills of Denver near the bison outside of Denver. I love bison. Bartlesville, Oklahoma. You kind of go to these places and people come out so you can find talent. One of the coolest things I think I ever did was Steve Case, the founder of America Online, had something called the Rise of the Rest.

22:05He had a bus and he would go through the Midwest of the country and he would do these startup pitches and people would kind of go through their thing. He called it startup and there was another guy on the thing called Startup Grind. And you've got to go on this grind and meet all these people. The whole ideas are brilliant ideas everywhere, not just in Silicon Valley, not just in Boston or New York.

22:25Shelley:I understand. I believe that's the case. You've got to go out and then put a platform and guess what? If you've got a cool buzzy event, I had a cool buzzy event recently in Dallas. We did it with Siemens on power and AI and data centers and what all this means and how the world is going to be different. We've got a fantastic group of people. You know, in Dallas, you go to Oklahoma, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, you kind of do the same things. Or just just so I think basically if you put out the fact that you're an open platform, people come. They want to be engaged. Particularly when you get out of the big cities.

23:00Shelley:Because these people, these people are really, they'll show up because they don't have a lot of competition. Yeah, right. Well, so I had tea with someone very smart yesterday. And during tea, we were talking about AI. And we were talking about how interesting it is that they have been accused, AI has been accused of being several things, including racist. And that this gentleman told me that AI gets most of its information, of its information, I don't know how you refer to it, from Reddit. Well, I don't know about Reddit. Well, I mean, Reddit is a public, publicly open. I know, but it's getting information from terribly imperfect places.

23:50Shelley:The large language models. Yeah, so imperfect data can feed imperfect outcomes. Exactly. What you try to do over time is realize that there's so much data that is in conflict with that, that learning models or large language models, LLMs, are able to manage that equation. Now, the problem is if you're a contrarian and you have 99 % of the world that thinks one thing and you're the 1 % that has it right somewhere else, that the model will go with the 99 % and screw the contrarian in a certain way. But that 1 % or that 2 % can also be false information. Right. And so that's a challenge. I mean, we have to figure that out.

24:35Shelley:I know. It's an interesting challenge. Well, think about one more trend that you see, and then I want to talk to you about divisiveness in the country, which we can just go to. But I'm just curious. I mean, so AI is huge. Obviously, it's coming. Great point. What was the other thing that you had mentioned? There's this woman I really respect, Marion Salzman. Marian is, she happens to be at Philip Morris International, but she's like a communications guru, and she's a futurist. And she's written a book, and she's got this annual, I think it's called the annual Megatrends Report. She's the one that many.

25:15I remember Megatrends. And she writes an annual thing about the trends that are coming. And many, many, many, many years ago, like in the 90s, I think she was the one that basically saw, like, metrosexuals coming. She's one that popularized the term. Like, she's super famous for it. I think one of the interesting things that she wrote in her last book, we're not there yet, is everyone is experiencing crisis. There's crisis everywhere. Systems are breaking down. The collapse of trust. So the collapse of trust across the board in media, business, institutions, whatever, has created something where we're all just going to live through kind of a shitty time.

25:52I hope I can say that on the show. And it's not going to get instantly better. And so she says that everybody's going to begin to get crisis concierges. Like there's going to be a concierge. Aren't they called therapists? Well, maybe. Maybe that's what they are. Therapists and masseuses? I think that's coming. I think the bigger insight is that the age of crisis at home.

26:14Shelley:Is upon us? Abroad. Yeah, where everything gets messier and nastier. And, like, there's no way out of it. We just have to live through it and fix it. Because you have the decay. I like your solution-based ending of that. Yeah. So, you know, I think that that's another trend. But that's a bummer. Sorry. You know, I work for Richard Nixon. I thrive in cynicism and darkness. Well, let's talk about, then, another bummer, which is the Charlie Kirk assassination. And really what I wanted to ask you about as a theoretically a radical centrist or a bipartisan or someone who is able to elicit interesting or solicit diverse responses in a very congenial way.

27:06Shelley:What are your thoughts on the reporting of Charlie Kirk? I mean, there's so much divisiveness in this country, and reporting on this assassination has just fueled the flames. I was just reading someone's post today. It's what political assassinations do. They're designed in a way to spark division and temper. However, I think the assassination of Charlie Kirk is an inflection point in our country and history. I tell people that many, many young people, whether they like Charlie Kirk or not, they knew he was a guy going into campuses, engaging people over ideas. And I have to tell you. They were very aware of him.

27:49I was surprised. It was a great thing that people saw the intellectual and verbal sparring over ideas as something they wanted to be part of, no matter where they were on the political spectrum. And Charlie created that, and I give him enormous credit for doing that. And his assassination is truly a horrific moment for the country because, look, you and I remember 9-11. My parents remember Pearl Harbor. People can remember Charlie Kirk's assassination or that generation. It's going to become seminal in their own identity for a very long period of time. And so I think that the way in which he asked about the reporting about it, we have a problem in this country, a built-in bias.

28:33I mean, the bottom line fact, in my view, is it's a horrible day for this nation that someone's there. That said, I've been arguing for some time we have to be careful that we're entering an era where political violence is rising. We've already seen the killing of legislators in Minnesota. We've seen attempted bombings. We've seen other places of both conservatives and liberals that frankly have been targeted. But Charlie Kirk was the biggest brand name to be struck down. And this is a problem in the country where some individuals are engaged in these political attacks. But what's happening is their acts are being infused by opponents with having been part of the agenda of some other organized activity, right?

29:24And I think that's a tragedy, too, because I think that we don't know very much at all about the shooter, his intentions. I've been very impressed with Governor Spencer Cox of Utah and how he's called for like a pause, take stock, and this individual. But already you see political parties and political partisanship and kind of news organizations basically coming in and ascribing so much more than is responsible to do to the act of this individual.

29:53Shelley:That's what I'm getting to is the reporting from the media organizations. Yeah, I think it's tragic. I think it's wrong. I think they're doing a disservice on both sides. And what do you think, this is a leading question, so I'll put it out there. But do you think or what do you think about the attention given to the perpetrators rather than the victims? So what I was reading when I came here was a blog from my good friend Jim Garrity, who was on the podcast earlier. And we've become really good friends since then. And he was talking about this reporter from ABC. and the reporter was so, he was remarking on how horrible it was that this happened to Charlie Clark and there were kids in the audience and he goes through the whole thing but then he goes through the, and how tragic for this boy who is from a conservative family and he felt that he had to do this and he was with a trans lover and anyway, I guess it's the equalizing of the situation for the victim and the perpetrator.

31:05Shelley:And I think that that's a media trend. I think down the road, when sociologists want to come in and try to understand Tyler Robinson, the killer, the alleged killer, fine. But we know nothing about this guy. We know nothing about the death we haven't done. But the reporting is already ascribed, as you said. People are bringing their baggage. They're bringing their filters. They're bringing all the stuff they want to pump and say. and I find it highly irresponsible. Yeah. All right. Well, then that's sort of the answer I was looking for. And I think it's really bad. You're listening to Lunch with Shelly.

31:39Shelley:If you were going to convene a panel on this, what would you want to get out of it? Or what would you want? I mean, I guess, would that be the bottom line? That, you know, keep your powder dry weight? Well, I think I would bring together... That's a great idea. I mean, that's a great question. I think I would bring together people... It's actually a good idea. It's a very good idea. I would bring in people from different ages, different generations. I bring in some provocative names. I bring in Tucker Carlson. I bring in Taylor Lorenz. I bring in people who've seen this differently and been on different lines of what propriety is supposed to look like.

32:11Some people have been victims in the media for various positions they've taken. And I'd like to kind of hear from them how do they process what is accurate, what is truthful, what is a responsibility. And I would like people to own the fact that they are adding so much BS and baggage to this. And I would like to hold them accountable in public.

32:36Shelley:I think we've just come up with our next event together. Yeah, there we go. I want to start a series called Uncomfortable Conversations. Uncomfortable Conversations appeals to me because there's another dimension to this tragedy where now President Trump and others are coming out saying they want to shut down or rip the 501c3 status of, you know, things to Open Society Foundations or the Ford Foundation. So they want to restrict speech. Now, one might have argued that white supremacist groups that had fiscal, you know, sponsors and churches, etc., ought to have had those ripped out before, that, you know, you have this debate over what free speech is and how free it should be.

33:14I just helped support a controversial, you know, for my friends it was controversial, but I strongly supported it. GB News is this. I was there at the event. Yeah, so GB News is the news that has surpassed Sky News and the BBC.

33:27Shelley:Right. It's the most watched news network in Canada. And I was very proud to do that. It doesn't mean I'm fully aligned with them. Nigel Farage came over. I love Bev Turner, who's the new anchor person for this group. I'm going to have luck with her soon. Well, she is fantastic. Ben Leo, her co-anchor in this, and they're very committed as a news platform to free speech. Free speech is always uncomfortable. It's never easy. People who think free speech is one side or the other, that means that those on the left have to be open to hearing uncomfortable framing, ideas, even bad ideas. But the same responsibility exists on the right of people who sort of feel and hear things differently about their race, their identity, their gender, their sexual status and preference, wherever they may be in that space.

34:18So free speech, I'm a complete free speech devotee and adjutant, if you will. But it means that both sides, all sides, are going to find themselves confronted if they're true. You never test the norms of a society unless it's a really shitty day out there. You're saying, okay, how are we living up to that? So I look at that commitment as an underlying principle. But right now we see people want free speech if it confirms their own biases and views.

34:49Shelley:Well, no, now I think people, particularly on the right, can find somebody on television that more accurately portrays what they're thinking. Because I think people on the right prior to Fox News, you know, would look at reporting that was supposed to be unbiased but really had a left tinge. And so it was refreshing for Fox. But let me ask you this. And that was a perfectly interesting point. But why are your friends bummed that you had the party for GB News? Because it's like the British Fox. No, I think they see some, not all friends, some of my friends were thrilled. I mean, you saw a lot of my friends there, including the famous Marlene Colucci.

35:31I think that some people are uncomfortable with the kind of nationalism. There is a debate going on around the world about what nationalism means. How should it feel? How should you wear it? How should you celebrate it? Should you support the monarchy or the monarchy crap? You know, are you, do you believe that concern about migration and the people here is a good thing or not? I mean, people get painted and thrown into different corners. You know, the migration issue, I think one of the really brilliant political moves, I won't call it policy, but the political moves that Trump did is, you know, he's brought immigration at the border almost down to nothing.

36:08And you know who's happy about that? Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston. You know, Greg Abbott. Not always my favorite governor, but nonetheless, when he was busing people to these areas, he put this question of an unresolved knot around huge levels of immigration. It's great that everybody wants to come to America. America's a great place. And part of our national identity is having brought some of the greatest brains and minds in the world.

36:34Shelley:But the towns were faltering under the weight of these new— I mean, sometimes almost as much of a new population as it existed in the town. And that was a gut punch to inertia because everyone said immigration was too difficult to solve. Well, I'm not a Marxist, but I do believe that I am Hegelian. What was the second word? Hegelian, Hegel. You have essentially political systems and economic systems tend to overreact. So as we have seen the president, Stephen Miller, his advisors, focus like a laser beam on deporting people, highly controversial, but for a lot of independents in America, oh, that's really addressing some of our problems in the country.

37:19Maybe we'll prioritize. Now, you may not agree with them, but it's a legitimate debate to have. But there's no doubt in my mind that lots of businesses, homes, construction companies need this labor. Oh, sure. So we've geared over one. So there's going to be a pendulum. I think there's going to be a pendulum back to some level. And I think that's one of the things that my friends get frustrated with me about because I tend not to hyperventilate at one moment. Because I realize there's going to be a counterreaction at some point.

37:46Shelley:Do they consider you to be with them? Like do all of your friends consider you to be? None of my friends consider me to be with them. Okay. They know I'm an oddball. So then they just get aggravated because? Or I lose them as friends. Right. Have you lost friends over politics? I have lost real friends over politics. I've lost friends. Thank you. Oh, actually, I'm a student. Look, I was an MSNBC contributor for years, and I basically regularly on the show on MSNBC, one of the most frequent personalities appearing across all the shows, and that I never, I really thought that Hillary's chances of winning, Hillary Clinton's, were very wobbly.

38:25And I thought there was a delusion in the network among a lot of people about what trends they were seeing.

38:32Shelley:I'm just laughing because I can anticipate how pissed off a lot of people were that you were thinking about. Well, they had me on for a while because I was a convenient token for an alternative perspective. But I just was with a lot of people that had not traveled the country, and they didn't sense the frustration over forever wars. They didn't sense the frustration over the 2008-2009 financial crisis and how people were gut-punched economically, lost underwater their homes and mortgages. And there was this kind of, I don't know, it's not arrogance is too strong a word, this entitlement that you felt among a lot of the people that were driving that time, among the media, among the associations, among the political crowd, that this was a foregone conclusion and Hillary Clinton was going to ride in.

39:18And I didn't feel it or see it. It's actually the time that Joe Biden should have won. Yeah. And he would have won versus Trump. But Trump was the only one speaking the language that, you know, it's interesting. Richie Rich from New York essentially was speaking the language of frustrated Americans who wanted to see and feel something different. And they weren't arguing over better policy. They hated government. They thought government was the enemy. And I think that was something that a lot of networks missed. And I was, you know, my friend Michael Steele on the network was also saying it. But he sort of migrated to those views.

39:51But the two of us were the only ones that were talking about at that time. I lost a lot of friends. I lost friends over there because I was good friends with John McCain. I had tremendous respect for John McCain. And when Senator McCain voted for the motion to proceed to reconsider Obamacare, I had friends storm out of my house because of my—and attack me in my house because of my support. I told them, I said, do you listen to John McCain's speech? He's not going to support the decision of Obama. He voted for the motion to proceed. And then he did what Ted Kennedy did on a similar bill. John McCain did a thumbs down and he prevented Obamacare from being repealed these are the moments I remember but yes, I have friends that I've lost over relationships I've had

40:37Shelley:it's so wild so you are a Chevalier I am a Chevalier a knight but it's not just a knight because I know women that are Chevaliers so women can be knights now? I guess they can be knights. Of the Légion d 'honneur. Légion d 'honneur. D 'honneur from France. Right. So how did you get that? Started by Napoleon. And how did you get that recognition? So I don't know how I got it. And let's talk about Italy next. So the truth is, this is the real truth. There was a great ambassador here in Washington named Gerard Arode. He happened to be a gay out ambassador who was very provocative. And he came to me, and I love it.

41:27He used to be France's ambassador to the UN. He moved to Washington. And he said, Steve, what do you think of our events and programs? And I said, well. They suck. I basically said that. No, I said they sucked. And I said they were largely there. People would come to be seen. But they were filled with too much pomp and circumstance. And I said, you need to create something that people want to come to.

41:46Shelley:Something fun. So he and I started something called the Calorama Conversations. Oh, gosh. And so we would bring in senators, House members, cabinet secretaries, visitors from France. Another good name, by the way. Yeah, have a dinner for about 40 people. And they were peers. You'd get, you know, and I would mix it with an author record, but I would get the best journalist, you know, Wolf Blitzer, Diane Rehm, you know, various people to come to these gatherings. Colleen Cooper of the New York Times, and you have these people come in. And we would have this dinner conversation that I would moderate, and no one got to speak too long.

42:25It would have been a couple minutes, a minute, two. Everybody by the end of the evening had participated. And so I was not doing something where somebody's coming and speaking for an hour. Right. And they're groaning on. No, from the very beginning. Brevity is totally the new currency. I'm doing one this week, and I've got eight members of Congress coming.

42:41Shelley:At the ambassador's residence? At the ambassador's residence, so I've been doing it. So I've done it over and over. I do this as a pro bono free thing and help them organize people. And then out of the blue, I got called by the succeeding ambassador, Philippe Etienne, who was recently in town, a very dear friend of mine. And Philippe said, Steve, I want to decorate you as a chevalier. President Macron wants to decorate you as a chevalier in the French Legion of Honor. And I said, look, I don't speak a word of French. I don't know what you want me to do, but I'll do whatever you want. I'll help out.

43:15So I didn't know what the word Chevalier meant. And when he told me, I cried. It's kind of cool.

43:21Shelley:I don't blame you. It's super cool. I mean, with all due respect, someday they're going to mention it in your obituary. Yeah, yeah. So I have a great relationship where I've done this, and they've valued the relationships that have come out. I mean, even I remember Jonathan Capehart was at one of my dinners, and a buddy of mine, Jeff Carneal, was sitting at this. And Jonathan chronicled it in an article in the Washington Post. where the famous Donald Trump-Macron handshake was invented at my dinner. Because Jeff Cornelius says, you know, when they were thinking and planning about this, and Gerard O 'Rode was the ambassador, he knew Macron's, and Jeff Cornelius goes, the handshake is everything to Trump.

44:05It's the most important defining moment. And so they called back that night to Macron, and they prepared the long handshake between Macron. And then Jonathan Capehart wrote an article in The Post about how the Calorama Conversation had given birth to that strategy. So, I mean, maybe that's a little silly, but it's kind of cool, you know. I think it's kind of cool. So that's why I was given this award. But I love working with the British, the French, the Germans. What's that?

44:35Shelley:Well, you have now a new Italian award. So, yeah, I'm being awarded something called the Urbino Award. The Urbino. U-R-B-I-N-O. And Urbino is an old, famous Renaissance-era city where the Medicis were there for a while, but the families were strong in Urbino. And they kind of pushed the Medicis out. But it's an extraordinarily gorgeous Renaissance city with art and culture. And they've got a ducal palace. And so, yeah, in October I'm going to be given the Urbino Award, which has gone to people like Wolf Blitzer, Helene Cooper, Mark Mazzetti, Brett Baer. A great number of people have gotten this award, and I get it this year.

45:13Shelley:And what have you done to deserve that? Jonathan Karl got it. So I think, as we sit here in Cafe Milano, that there has been a lot of recognition. You spent so much money on Italian restaurants. Both my writing and journalism and interviews in foreign policy and national politics combined. I mean, I tell people, look, I mean, there are really great journalists out there. And I like my journalism. I like my interviews. I've interviewed people all over the world, interviewed people on stage. For them to give me this award means they have broadened their aperture to say, we want a guy who's not just an inquisitor.

45:44We want a guy who convenes people. We want somebody who's making Davos sing, engage in foreign policy in kind of new and disruptive and interesting ways. So I feel very proud that I've gotten it. But I actually haven't. Look, I mean, it's been announced that we're doing this, so it's happening. Does it happen here or there? Well, there's going to be a big dinner and event here in Washington. and then there's going to be a big event in Urbino in November.

46:10Shelley:Okay. So it's a twofer. I've got to go to Urbino for that. And apparently one of the past recipients, Helene Cooper of the New York Times, dear friend, told me they will take me in November on a truffle hunting excursion. That's exciting. Which I'm so excited about. Yeah, I love truffles. Yeah, me too. You're listening to Lunch with Shelly. So I love celebrity. So tell me about State of Play. I thought that was a really great movie. And now I have to watch it again. It's a David Ignatius novel. Okay. I do not know that, actually. So David Ignatius is one of the... He's like DC's John le Carre.

46:51Okay. Maybe they're less complex, but he writes a lot of spy novels.

46:54Shelley:Well, I also love Daniel Silva. Yeah, so they've written a lot of spy novels. And then this one, State of Play, was turned into a movie. Right. Russell Crowe and Ben. Were they cool? Very cool. Ben Affleck was the best. Why? And he wanted to know everything about being a journalist in D.C. So you were a consultant and an actor? No, I was not a consultant. I was in the show. What role did you play? I was like an extra. I was a much more. I was actually in Rising Sun with a line. Okay. But I didn't want it. I mean, it's complex. I didn't want a line in this movie. State of play. Yeah, I was a Screen Actor Guild qualified.

47:29Right. Because of my earlier line in Rising Sun, where I was a technical advisor, but I was also the talk show host. Oh, right. In Rising Sun. So you become what's called SAG qualified, and I'm still getting residuals today. Wow. The second time you appear with a line. Like more than 15 cents? Yes. Okay. So over many decades. Okay. But in the second time you appear, you become, so now you're considered to be union qualified to get into the next thing, but then you've got to start paying dues. It costs a couple thousand dollars. I just said, you know, I love the Hollywood thing, but I have a lot of friends in Hollywood, but I do not need to turn myself.

48:04I have enough to do. Right. So I did not want to trigger my having to pay dues in the Screen Actors Guild. So I just appeared. But I was involved. I was in the mix with this.

48:13Shelley:And so Ben Affleck was smart. He has a reputation of being smart. I love Ben Affleck. And he hung out with a lot of us. And we, you know, talked about all of us. He had other people. We talked about their movies. But you're much more culturally savvy with it. I happen to know a few individuals that made it big in Hollywood. But it's not like I know the whole scene. Ben was interested in policy and politics and journalism and the hot topics, and we had a great time. And what about Russell Crowe? I met Russell Crowe, but we never had that kind of encounter like I did with Ben. But who's more handsome?

48:48Oh, that's really complicated. It's not that complicated. Well, I would say Ben may be more my type.

48:55Shelley:Right, because he's tall and sort of has a similar build to you. That's probably the nicest thing you'll hear today. Exactly. Thank you, sweetie. You're welcome. But it was equal for you? Like, Russell was also hot? They're both handsome. Okay. Okay, how about Sean Connery? Sean was a good friend. He's a good friend? He was a good friend. Do you do an impression? No. And what about Wesley Snipes? They're both super hot. Wesley was great. Wesley was on the set. But it was very interesting because Lachlan Murdoch has just kind of taken over the Fox empire. At the time, at Fox Studios, because it was produced by Fox, Lachlan was working as a production assistant on the show.

49:43That's hilarious. His dad wanted them all to learn these roles. So Lachlan was, as I remember correctly, he was the brother that was on the set working and learning the movie business as a worker. A lot of people haven't written this about it. I mean, the Murdoch kids were given entry to kind of, it's like going to work on the assembly line for like, you know. Right.

50:01Shelley:I'm not surprised by that. I think it was really cool. And I remember meeting the young Lachlan at that time and being so impressed. But he was a hard worker. And then, yeah, Sean Connery was obsessed with the ideas of competitiveness, the U.S. economy, technology, and how America was perceived to be slipping in that time. It reminds me of China and NVIDIA. And so Sean loved the book Rising Sun, written by Michael Crichton. Michael Crichton and the director, Phil Kaufman. Phil Kaufman had done The Unbearable Lightness of Being, The Right Stuff, all of this was the director. They had a falling out.

50:36But Michael was my friend, and I'm credited in Michael Crichton's book as someone he leaned on in the acknowledgments. And to be a director of a Japan American Society, he thanked in that book, was a life-focusing moment because it was a very controversial book. if you were a U.S. dependent. I'm going to read it.

50:53Shelley:I've never read it. And I don't think I've also seen the movie. Yeah. Well, I'm in it. Okay. For like three seconds. Like, do you know how far it is? Wesley, I think he was into it. The problem we had with the movie is that Wesley was a martial arts titan. And he actually had studied. Was he a martial arts titan? In his mind he was. I mean, I know he was like, okay, thank you. And he kept karate chopping. I mean, we would get together and Sean and I would talk about ideas and how bad America was at, you know, seeing to its own interest. And Wesley would just karate chop me, kick me. Right. You know, he would literally go, ah, you know, like do one of these karate chips into me, you know, like all the time.

51:33Shelley:Bummer. Yeah. Here's my best question, my favorite question. Okay. As a lunch pod, if you were going to have lunch anywhere in the world, where would it be and what would you be eating? Oh, my God. You're such a foodie. I eat in all the cool places, but I love this restaurant. You know why I love Cafe Milano? Because it's like Disneyland. Everyone is so nice and nothing bad happens. No, lots of bad. I love Cafe Milano because during COVID, this place had a tough time. And I helped organize some money to help give support to these people. I know everyone who works here. Me too. And they're so nice.

52:13So for me, I've been fortunate. I was at a party at what they call the Caille d 'Orsay, the French Foreign Ministry. And my friend Pascal Canfavreau invited us. Wait, hold on.

52:24Shelley:That was a whole mouthful. Who are you talking about? Pascal Canfavreau has just this week become the new. Canfavreau? Canfavreau. C-O-N-F-A-V-R-E-A-U-X. Okay. He's just become, as of today, he's become the new spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry. But he invited me to this party at the French Foreign Ministry, gorgeous rooms, like even more gorgeous than the State Department fancy rooms, for Le Liste. It's the awarding of France's top awards for the best chefs in the world. Wow. When is that? Or when was that? With Guy Savoy, or if you're, you know, like me in Vegas, I call him Guy Savoy.

53:00Right, right. And so, Guy Savoy and George Blanc. And there was the guy up in Brooklyn who's got, like, the most famous restaurant. And watching a young guy, a biker, I met him. And so, I love all these places and the food and the experiences I've had. I'm not a foodie. I love to have it. But what I like are people. I'm not being corny about it.

53:21Shelley:No, no. I appreciate it. I do events. I do a ton of events at Cafe Milano because I am picky about timing what I do. I said, never let the food get in the way of a good conversation. Right. And that way I can do here. I have other places like Annabelle in Washington I like a lot. And then my friend Frederick DePue, it may not be your favorite restaurant, but I love Frederick DePue, who is the former head chef for the ambassador of the EU. Thank you. And he created the Henry. He died a year. I was just there. So he died a year and a half ago. But his cuisine was magnificent. It really is. And the staff is fantastic.

53:57Shelley:I just did an event there last week. He sculpted and crafted all of that. But so these are my go-to places, you know. The Henri, really? Which one? The Henri? Yeah. I just discovered it. I do a ton of events there. It's very convenient. And I also just like the vibe. So I'm a vibe guy more than a... So if I were doing podcasts, I like people I can depend on. Now, I'll tell you, you mentioned Laurent of Cafe Milano. Yeah, yeah. He was on the podcast. Laurent is interesting because when I lived in West Hollywood, across from the original Spago restaurant... Yeah. And I took over Darren Starr's old apartment.

54:31So Darren lived on Horn Avenue in the hills of West Hollywood until he began making money. And when he began money, he bought a house. And so he gave me his apartment. I took over the lease. And so I moved in this place. But it was right next to Spago. So I used to see Wolfgang Puck all the time. And Swifty Lazar and Madonna and Tom Cruise, all these people were in this place. And they would have their big post-academy award parties there. limousines stretched out. Well, because I was there and was seeing Puck and all these people all the time, I would get to go. I would get to crash the party.

55:05And often, you know, I was very close with MCA, Universal Studios. And so MCA, Lou Wasserman was the head of it. And there was a great woman named Christine Hansen. And she would get me on lists for stuff, which was great. And I would, I'm sort of seen as the Mr. Japan guy. Right. In a time where Japan mattered. Right, exactly.

55:23Shelley:Japan was very hot in the 90s. Yeah. Back to Laurent, there was an article in Los Los Angeles Magazine with the back of a big guy. He said, the most powerful man in America. And it was the maitre d', not Wolfgang Puck, but the maitre d' of Spago. Oh, that's hilarious. I always told this to Laurent. I said, well, you're now the most powerful man in America. There's a woman who runs Mar-a-Lago. She is in charge of all the seating. And there was this great piece with her in Palm Beach Post, the most important person in Palm Beach. And it's Carmen at Mar-a-Lago. Yeah. Well, I need to meet Carmen. I'm very familiar with the schtick.

55:57Right, right. But Laurent is like that here. That's hilarious.

56:01Shelley:Yeah, Laurent is like that here. That's so funny. Well, so you have no answer, though. Just, I mean, like, would you be eating caviar and lobster? Just if you and your husband, what's your husband's name? I do like lobster. Andrew. Andrew. So if you and Andrew were, like, in Manhattan, would you be at the Carlisle or, I don't know, like, anywhere. If you were in D.C., having lunch, like champagne, caviar, lobster, truffles? You know, I would. Or would you be, like, beer and pizza? Would you be gin and tonics and a burger? You know, I have to say that I pulled the lobster and caviar direction. Yeah, I know.

56:40With champagne. You know. Champagne, caviar, lobster. Well, Andy would like the champagne. I'm a wine guy. I don't like the bubbles so much. But I could suffer through the champagne. Yeah, yeah. But I like that. But like where?

56:51Shelley:Would you be at a beach? You know, I don't have a good answer because I'm not that kind of guy. I'm bland in that way. What's the place? What's the Cipriani's? Cipriani's. I like Cipriani's. No, but the good one, Harry's Bar. Yeah, Harry's Bar is great. Across from the plaza. Yeah, we were just in Lake Como and we were there with eight friends. Okay, so champagne, pizza. Somebody kept asking me, what's your favorite restaurant? Where do you go? Do you know this Argentinian place? Blah, blah. I said, I feel like I'm so underperforming because I don't pay attention to food or restaurants. It's not on my radar.

57:29Shelley:Okay, but what am I going to put you down for? Cafe Milano? Cafe Milano. Okay. And you're having wine. Always Cafe Milano. Okay. And you're having wine and whatever anybody puts in front of you. Really good wine. Yeah. Or whiskey. So I was here drinking with Franco Nuchese. You don't mean scotch. You mean whiskey. I mean whatever Franco pulls out. But it was my birthday one year. I was born in 1962, and he pulled out a 1962 scotch. Do you like the peat? I do. I know very little about scotch, but I like the peat. Okay, then I like it a lot. All right. Well, I am so, so glad that we did this. Thank you so much for being on, Steve.

58:14Shelley:My personal and professional career crush goes on. Oh, thank you. I'll work on the restaurant answer for future. I'm so into you. I can't wait to re-listen to this lunch. Thank you so much for being on. Everyone. I can't wait until you do other interviews with people that I will crash here at Cafe Milano. You know, it's a safe bet. And I'll think about that restaurant question. This is like the third or fourth episode that I've done at Milano. Yeah. Because I just love it here so much and everybody wants to be here. Everyone, thank you so much for listening to this episode. I can only imagine that you liked it as much as I have.

58:57Shelley:I had so much fun having lunch with you. Thank you very much. Everyone, check out other episodes of Lunch with Shelly, wherever you find your favorite podcast. And in the meantime, as always, peace, love, and lunch.

59:15Thank you.