Nonpartisan by Nature - with Steve Scully

20:07Shelley:Of course. And one of the most memorable exchanges I ever did with anyone was in 2004. So we had agreed to sit down with then Vice President Dick Cheney and Lynn Cheney to have a conversation about their first four years in the White House. We talked about 9-11. We talked about his health. And we talked about 2005. And this is at the time when there's a lot of talk about whether he's going to stay on the ticket or not. Right, right. I'll never forget sitting down with Brian Lamb in advance of the interview. And I said, Brian, how do you frame the question? Because you don't want to say, hey, is Bush going to dump you from the ticket?

20:41Because then he'd be very defensive. And so Brian and I talked it through. And so we came up with the language, Mr. Vice President, what will it take for reporters to stop asking the question, will you be on the ticket? So very non-threatening. And so I asked that question to the vice president. He answered it. And I said, for any reason, your health or otherwise, do you see any scenario in which you would go to President Bush and say, I'm not going to serve for another four years. He answered that question. And then I followed up with one more, and I said, so what are the odds of you accepting your party's nomination in New York in early September when the convention was going to be held in New York after 9-11 three years earlier?

21:18And he said, don't bet against it. And then we went on with other things. The interview was over. Seemed to be fine. We went about 30, 35 minutes. No real hard questions. But afterwards, Lynn Cheney said, hey, Steve, can I see you in the other room? And she slammed the door. She poked me in the chest, and she said Dick was very offended by your line of questioning. And initially I thought to myself, I have no idea what she's talking about. And, of course, the story was they were sensitive to the fact that Bush was thinking about dropping him from the ticket. So that was one of those moments in terms of the interviews.

21:54Four years later, we did the second-to-last interview with President George W. Bush in the Oval Office. And one of the techniques that I've tried to use is what Tim Russert has done so well, the late, great Tim Russert, used their words to kind of ask them a question. Right, right. So I went back to what President Bush said in December of 2000, Bush v. Gore, the ruling. He talked about trying to unite the country, meeting with Al Gore. And I read to him those words. And then I said, Mr. President, what happened? And Shelley, I'll never forget, he kind of slumped in his chair and he looked around and he said, I guess I was a more hopeful person back then.

22:34And it's just a reminder that you're going to get more from these interviews if you, like you, have a conversation. Right. And learn more and you kind of peel back the onion. And that was another reminder. So those are some of the interviews that stand out in my mind.

22:48Shelley:So tell me, why are you in radio and not television as much? Because you're so good at both. So I'm still on television. I do stuff for The Hill and Hill TV and News Nation. Oh, Hill TV. And I also was on last night. Oh, and News Nation. I love Katie Pavlitz. She's great. Yeah, her 10 o 'clock show is doing very well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the National Desk, which is a digital service. But I'm also, the other thing that I'm doing is spending a lot of my time is working on this museum, this War of 1812. I'm working with this think tank in Erie. We're bringing in Michelle Obama next month to Erie.

23:21My goodness. We're bringing in Terry Bradshaw. So I'm using my Rolodex. Hugh Hewitt is coming in. Michael Smirconish. But my show...

23:28Shelley:You had me at Terry Bradshaw. He's in your Rolodex? He's in my Rolodex. Wow. So he's coming. Yeah, Pennsylvania. Or Pittsburghian. Western Pennsylvania. The better part of Pennsylvania, Shelley. Got to weave that in whenever I can. I know. And actually, well, I'm from Wilkes-Barre, obviously, so I'm Northeastern. But now I've become an Eagles fan. Oh, no. Well, it's better than being a Steelers fan. Why? Well, because we win. Oh. Ouch. Fair enough. Why not? Fair enough. But so nonpartisan or bipartisan organizations are your gig? Yes. Well, that's in my DNA is kind of nonpartisan or bipartisan.

24:11So I'm also working with the former members of Congress. I can tell you something that we're working on.

24:15Shelley:Yeah, I didn't even know that group existed. They do. There may be a lot of new members after this midterm elections. Oh, right. But one of the things I'm doing with them is we're putting together a program which will honor Nancy Pelosi as the person who broke the glass ceiling. It's bipartisan because it will include the former Speaker of the House, John Boehner. So it's exciting to kind of use the time and resources beyond just what I do on SiriusXM and create programming and content. That's one of the things I did at the Bipartisan Policy Center is we launched and put together what we call the Senate Project Debate Series.

24:52So you mentioned Ted Kennedy and Orrin Hatch. We worked with the Kennedy Institute and the Hatch Foundation, and we did seven debates with sitting senators, the last two with Senator Coons and Senator Marco Rubio. I had no idea. It took place at GW. And to me, I get a lot of satisfaction by producing and putting together those kinds of events because it kind of brings people together. It also showcases that as dysfunctional as Washington is, and it is, there are people who can get along and work together. And so I'm trying to always look for ways that we can do that.

25:27Shelley:That's fantastic. And I'm so happy. I mean, where can somebody go to find programs like this? Because I should be more aware of programs like this. Well, the Senate Project Debate Series lives on YouTube, so you can go anywhere to do those. C-SPAN, Fox, and CBS carried the debate, so we wanted a national audience for these debates. And the work that I'm doing with the former members is also on YouTube or on their website. And, of course, the Jefferson Educational Society last year had the chance to sit down with Barack Obama for an hour and a half, brought him to Erie as well. Karan is nodding.

25:59Did you see it?

26:00Shelley:No, I was fascinated. Yeah, so that's also on YouTube. He was interesting. The problem when you sit down with Barack Obama is that you might have 15 questions, and after the first question, you're like eight minutes in, ten minutes in. Right. Because he is very professorial. Yeah. But very, when I say just very chill, very cool. I mean, just totally, he walks on stage. We had the playlist that was on his smartphone. He asked me what was on my playlist, which can't compare to what is on his playlist. But just a really fun, fun conversation. And it was right after Charlie Cook had been assassinated.

26:40So we talked a lot about that as well.

26:41Shelley:What did he have to say? He talked about the polarization of our country. And you can disagree without being disagreeable. That's not the way to solve differences in this country. We talked about the assassination attempt on President Trump. And he basically said, look, both sides need to tone down the rhetoric. We need to kind of work together. and realize that we may come to the table from two different points of view. We may leave that table disagreeing with each other, but we shouldn't hate each other. Right. We shouldn't have vitriolic language. And I think he was referring to President Trump as well, because this president is responsible for some of the harsh language that we're seeing, as he's done so on social media.

27:25He didn't mention Trump's name, but it was pretty clear that he put part of the blame on him. But he also said our party can do a better job as well.

27:34Shelley:I think I saw that snippet, to be honest. And I think I thought, well, it's so hard to finish my statement or sentence. I think I thought that he was blaming Republicans more than Democrats. That was my impression. But I see things through a different lens. How in the world do you stay right down the middle? Which I believe you are. And it seems like you are. But how do you do that? You know, well, first and foremost, you want to be fair to whoever you're interviewing. Right. And you want to give them the benefit of the debt. Right, right, right. But having said that, you want to make sure that you hold them accountable for whatever question happens to come in mind.

28:18So if I'm sitting down with, you know, President Trump, which I did, the last interview I did was in 2019, I questioned him a lot about the national debt, which at that point was$38.5 trillion.

28:31Shelley:What is it now, 71? Well, 40, just over$40 trillion. Oh, good. Hopefully not 71. That would be, 40 is still a lot. For some reason, number seven came up. I thought it was even worse. It's 40, but will quickly be$41 trillion by the time we sit here next year. You know, give them the benefit of the doubt. Hold them accountable. Listen to what they're saying. Use their own words. Push back when you want to push back. You know, it depends. Are you doing a news interview? Is it a profile interview? Is it a conversation? Are you on SiriusXM? Is it, you know, a 10-minute interview that that's all you get with that person?

29:09Right. So, as you know, and you're a pro at this, the line of questioning is going to depend on how much time you have. I mentioned the Bush interview when I went to Dana Perino, who was press secretary at the time. I said, I want time. Don't give me 10 minutes because we can't get that conversation. Well, they gave us almost 40 minutes, which is pretty incredible for a president.

29:28Shelley:Yeah. Yeah. Even when that president's leaving office. Do you think that your brothers and sisters would be like, oh, my God, he totally has one opinion or the other and he just keeps it in the vest? You know, it's also the viewers. And if you watch C-SPAN over the years, they'll think, ah, we know you're Republican because you asked that. Or we know you're a Democrat. Right. I compare it to this. If you have an employee and you do a job interview and you tell that person nine things that they're doing really, really well. And then you point out one area that they need to work on or one area that they've fallen back on.

30:07Right. They kind of gravitate to just that negative moment. Of course.

30:11Shelley:I think that's a rather feminine attribute, actually. Well, but if you do an interview with a report, with a newsmaker, and you can ask them four or five innocuous questions, and then one or two that might be pretty tough, the press person will call back and say, well, you know, the senator didn't appreciate that question. I'm thinking the senator is a pretty big person. I know. He or she can put up with it. And look, and Brian Lamb taught me this early on. The handlers are always the ones that are the biggest pain in the ass. I was one of them. OK, well, then, you know, but you're not a pain in the ass.

30:46Shelley:No, and I tried not to be. But you're right. I mean, you get very protective of your principle. And that is the the one thing that you hear is, you know, the gotcha question. Right. But I would argue that the media, when I was a press secretary, was so much more difficult on Republicans than Democrats because it's a known fact that most members of the media are left of center. Fair enough, yes. And at the time, there was no box or any other outlet, really, except for air quoting the Wall Street Journal was the most conservative paper. So it was hard. It was hard to talk about tax cuts in those days.

31:28And that's why in the 90s and the 2000s, especially in the 90s, C-SPAN was the place to go if you wanted the alternative. Because you knew you were always going to get a fair shake.

31:37Shelley:Yes, you're 1 ,000 % right. Well, so, but back to the medium. So do you prefer radio to TV? You know, I like them all, but radio is a very personal medium. And here's what I love about what I do two hours a day, five days a week, is that I have total editorial control. I mean – Me too. Yes. But you've got to remember SiriusXM is a large corporation. And they're in New York and in Washington. They're in Nashville, Tennessee. They're in Miami. They're in Los Angeles. I can tell you in the now nearly five years that I've been doing SiriusXM, not once have they ever come back and said, You need to have this person on or your line of questioning was unfair.

32:21They give you editorial freedom. I'd like to think because they know that we're professionals and we're going to treat everyone in a very professional way. But they are great to work with. And I got to tell you, in today's environment, to have a boss like SiriusXM that allows you to just take the ball and run with it. I love politics. I'm on the politics channel. So we have members of Congress. We have political pundits, Democrats and Republicans. You know, we have two Democratic members of Congress on yesterday. We'll have two Republican members tomorrow. I heard Ohio, yeah. And so, you know, we've got the David Urbans of the world and the James Carville coming on, which is what I like about it.

32:58And, yes, I mean, if you're on social media, which you try to avoid, if you have a Republican on, they're going to say, well, you were softer, too hard on that person. Conversely, you're on a Democrat. But at the end of the day, you look at the totality of the programming and the work you do, and I think people see that you're going to be fair and straight down the middle. Fair and balanced, as they used to say at Fox News.

33:18Shelley:Exactly. Did you have, like, a goal or, you know, not a celebrity, a newsmaker in mind that you wanted to fashion yourself by? You know, maybe Tom Brokaw. I knew you were going to say that. It was going through my head, and I love Barbara Walters. But Tom Brokaw was fantastic. Yes, and I had met him on a number of occasions. In fact, when Jonathan Martin got married, he was at the wedding. You're kidding. Yeah, and sat with him. I mean, he's legendary, isn't he? And that's when the anchors were just, you know. Well, I grew up watching the Today Show ever since I was four. I mean, ever since I could remember.

34:05And in 2000, I'll never forget, I'm at the center of New Hampshire at the time of holiday, and I think it's a renaissance now. And it was the night before the New Hampshire primary. And we were all working very late. And we knew the next day we're not going to start until that evening, so you could sleep in just a bit. And we're at the bar, and who's there but Peter Jennings.

34:25Shelley:Wow. He bought a round for the entire bar. That's awesome. And then he bought a second round. I'm dying to do that. I have never had that moment, like, for everyone. Yeah, he was great, and I just chatted with him. And, of course, you know, sadly, a few months later, we had 9-11, and then he died a few years after that. But it was just a remarkable moment. So he's also somebody who I admired over the years. Well, tell us about this 1812 museum. Yeah. It's an interesting story because, again, having grown up in Erie, the don't give up the ship was literally sewn in the house next door to where my mom was born and raised.

35:04You're kidding. Both homes are torn down now, and they were not at the same time.

35:08Shelley:That's a great phrase. Yeah, don't give up the ship. Yeah. That flag is now flying in the U.S. Naval Academy. My daughter graduated in 2017 from the Naval Academy. Wow. She's now a Navy pilot. And so two years after that, Doug Brinkley came to Erie. He is from Perrysburg, Ohio, which is, of course, named after Oliver Hazard Perry. And he just kept thinking about a museum. So earlier this year, he called me up. He said, Scully, let me tell you a little story. Many years ago, when Stephen Ambrose came to me and said, we need to build a D-Day museum, which is now the National World War II Museum, You need to help me put this together.

35:50So now that has been built, it is phenomenal. If you go to New Orleans, you've got to check it out. And it's not just the D-Day Museum, which is where they made the boats that crossed the English Channel, a boat that my dad was on in 1944.

36:03Shelley:Oh, my goodness. And so he called me up about almost a year ago, last December, and said, can you make this happen? So because I've done work with the Jefferson Educational Society, I said, let me look into it. So we were able to get some local funding and some seed money to hire a consulting firm. And the firm is based out of Canada called Lord Cultural. I went up to Erie, put together kind of a series of stakeholder meetings with the county executive and the mayor and local leaders. And I said, we have this idea. And we really think now is the time to do it. So we then hired this firm. We now are in the process of unveiling what is the second phase of their study.

36:45That's going to come out in just a couple of weeks. We've gotten some seed money from the community to try to build this museum. It will cost about$60 million to build. We have a potential location, and it could be transformational. There's a lot of museums out there. There's the new Teddy Roosevelt Museum. There's the new Obama Museum in Chicago. Have you been? I've not been there since it's been completed. Okay. But I was here when it was under construction. and it looks great. You know, I know there's a lot of controversy about the building structure itself, but it's a compound. I mean, it's a park.

37:19I mean, it's not just a museum and a library. They've got a basketball court. They've got tennis courts and pickleball courts. This is not going to be anything like that. But what is exciting, you know, when I left C-SPAN, I kind of thought, what do I want to do next?

37:32Shelley:Yeah. And I'm using a different part of my brain, and I'm doing something I never thought I would be doing, and we're going to make it happen. It's going to be built, and it's going to be state-of-the-art. It's going to be highly interactive. It's going to be actors that will portray Oliver Hazard Perry so you can ask him questions. Because museums today, you need some artifacts. Yeah. But for the most part, it's very interactive, digital, a lot of video. Yeah. I want Tom Hanks to narrate the story of the War of 1812. You're kidding. And what we're going to do, based on what Doug and I have talked about, it's not just that battle.

38:06It's about that entire period from post-revolutionary war to 1814, 1815, because the argument could be made that if George Washington gave us our independence, the War of 1812 preserved our independence. We became the country that we are today after that war.

38:24Shelley:Well, give me a refresher of that. I have a plate that says 1812, and I need to be reminded why. Well, and if you're in the U.S. Capitol, you'll see that picture of the flagship Niagara in the Capitol, that huge painting that talks about what happened in Put-in-Bay, Ohio. So the war, basically, we defeated the British. And we were able to secure our border to the north. And we were able to expand out west. And Oliver Hazard Perry came from Philadelphia. He was a very young person. One of ours. Yeah. But originally, I believe he was from somewhere else in New England. Oh, I thought you were going to say the Westerns.

39:01No, no, no, no. Okay. And he died relatively young, but this is, of course, his moment in which he was able to defeat. The war itself was really, you know, half a day or a day. But that entire period, the burning of the Capitol and what happened at the White House, that's the whole transformational period of that conflict. And that's the story that we need to tell, not just a single battle, but an entire period that's often forgotten in American history. So the fact that you don't know a lot about it only reinforces that we need to build this museum and have a centerpiece on that war and that period of American history.

39:38Shelley:Yeah, I mean, to my chagrin, I was, Howard told me that you were working on this. And I know that I, as I mentioned, I have this plate that says 1812. Yeah. But I couldn't think of why. And I should have done my homework before I saw you, but I figured you would tell me. Yeah. But why is it going to be, is it going to be an area or is it going to be in Ohio? No. Oh, that has to be in Erie. It's going to be in Erie because that's where they made the ships. And, you know, if you think about the D-Day Museum and the World War II Museum, well, it's a pretty slim connection between the boats that were used from, that were built in New Orleans that were used for the D-Day invasion.

40:16That's the connection. Erie has a much bigger connection. You've got Don't Give Up the Ship. You have Oliver Hazard Perry. We have met the enemy, and they are ours. You have the Niagara. That's a good one. Yeah, and you have the Lawrence. In many ways, the birthplace of the Navy was in Erie along the Great Lakes. Those ships were then sent out into the Great Lakes to fight the battle, but Erie was the epicenter of what happened.

40:40Shelley:And is Erie still a shipbuilding area? It's not. Interestingly, you say that because there's a big push to try to resume that in Erie. You would think because of the deep port of Lake Erie, they certainly have the space for it. And so there's a big push now led by Dave McCormick, senator from Pennsylvania. Great senator. Trying to make that happen. He's very good, yes. And very supportive of this museum idea. And in the interest of bipartisanship, so is the Democratic governor, Josh Shapiro. Yeah. Because I met with both of them. And they're both interested. They said they want to help. What we have to do is we have to secure the final location.

41:17We have to come up with an architectural rendering of what it's going to look like. We have to have some local money, a few million dollars, to say this is going to get off the ground. Then from that, which we'll get to in the next six to nine months, the bigger dollars will flow.

41:32Shelley:So is it like a 2030 idea? Probably. It's now 2026, so it's three to four years. By the time you get local zoning approval, you get the land, then construction. So probably three to four years. Yeah. Well, what else do you do in your quote-unquote spare time? I raise my kids. My youngest daughter is a high school senior, I can't believe. Oh, no. Empty nester next year. That's so poignant. We had two weddings in the last eight months. Oh, my God. So I have a GoFundMe page if you want to help out. Yeah, right. Two weddings. Two daughters. Got married. One in Ireland. Within eight months. My two sisters got married within a month.

42:15Oh.

42:16Shelley:Yeah. My father, on behalf of him, he feels your pain. Yes, exactly. Well, the funny story about Wilkes-Barre is that my mother has a best friend, and after each wedding, the butcher was the one that knew how much everything was, or so we thought. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah, so, I mean, there was town talk, you know, but, I mean, I think that's to be expected. Well, that's when weddings were, I'm sure, a lot less expensive. Yeah, right. It's amazing. These are huge industries today. Of course. They always were. But even more so between the flowers and the wedding planner and the caterer and the venue and the photographer and the video and the band and the welcoming party and the brunch the next day if you do that.

43:00I mean, it's just like... And the matching robes for the girls. Oh, yeah.

43:03Shelley:And the... Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Of course. Why is it that when you get married at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, the makeup begins at 7 or 7.30 in the morning? Oh, my God. What's with that? It's because everybody takes like 45 minutes. And, you know, in my day, you had a big bridesmaids party. So if you do literally the math, then the bride is the last one that gets it done, I guess, around 11. And then you have to get dressed. I mean, I don't know. Yeah. It's crazy making. Oh, yeah. And the pictures. By the end of the day, you're exhausted. Exhausted. I know. I mean, they need a honeymoon from their honeymoon.

43:42Shelley:Yeah. But do you like the guys? Oh, yeah, they're great. Yeah, we went from two to four Navy pilots just like that. My God. Well, what is your father's, is your father still with us? No, he passed away. What was his nickname, though? His name was Hoot. Yeah. His name was Hoot because his name was Hubert. And somehow when he was a kid, they started calling him Hoot, and it stuck. Yeah, right. Well, so Hoot was in World War II. He was. and came home successfully and fathered 16 kids. So he was initially, so my parents, my mom would not, well, my mom's mom, my grandmother, who I never knew, said they were going to get married after the end of the war in Europe before my dad was going to go to Japan.

44:27And my grandmother says, you can't do that because you might be a widow. And, of course, she was right.

44:31Shelley:Yeah. And so, as we know, September of 1945, you had the VJ Day, and the war ended, thankfully. And then my mom said, I want a June wedding. So we had to wait until June of next year. But they went right at it and had kids within a year. First set of twins. And how did you meet Katie? She was an underage drinker at a bar, truth be told. And do you mean by a year or by more? Maybe a little bit more than that. It was all innocent. I was a local reporter. She was with a friend of mine. She was 20 at the time. 21 is a drinking age. Yeah, that's fine. Within a year. Yeah, and it was, you know, 25-cent beer at the time.

45:18Right. At a bar that was along the shores of Lake Erie. And we had a lot in common, and we still do. She's one of 10. I'm one of 16. So right away, we hit it off, and we're happily married for now more than 35 years.

45:30Shelley:That's a long time. It is. Congratulations. Well, I learned long ago the key to a successful marriage, yes, honey. Yeah, right. Whatever you say, honey. Right. But do you, like, do you run? Do you play tennis? Play golf poorly. Okay. Exercise, you know, three, four, five days a week. That's a lot. We have a new dog, so we have a puppy. So I got to take long walks. I am so dog-centric. What kind of dog? It's a golden doodle. Ooh. Yeah. Very cute. I have a golden retriever. Golden doodles are adorable. They are nice. It's our second dog. A big or a small. So we had the big one. His name was Tucker.

46:02He died last December. I'm sorry. And we were going to wait six months to get another dog. A month and a half later, we got another dog. Right.

46:08Shelley:I mean, you're supposed to wait six months, and it's so hard. And so we have a smaller golden doodle. His name is Oliver. Not after Oliver Hazard Perry. My wife just liked the name Oliver. And he's great. So we do that. We love to travel. We just came back from Aruba. That's fun. Yes. Have you ever been there? A long time ago. Direct flights. Easy to get to. They take American dollars. They speak English. The hotels are 20 minutes from the airport. It's fabulous. But I'm still working full time. And you know what? I've got to tell you, I love working. I don't want to retire to play golf. I mean, you know, that gets boring pretty fast.

46:49I don't want to either.

46:50Shelley:But I do like to ask people what they do on their time off. We get a lot of, for female people, we get yoga, Pilates. Yes. For men, I guess we get golf and tennis. Yeah, but everybody needs to get your ya-ya's out And reading a good book Right You know, sometimes, like this weekend, we have nothing planned Which is the first weekend It's amazing And I love it So we can go out to dinner, we can go for walks You know, we can go to the gym Go see a movie, stay up late, play cards I mean, that's, because most of our weekends Even now we're in the midst of college tours with our youngest They're jam-packed But this weekend it's like, hey, I can chill out But do you think you will go out or do you get lazy?

47:35Shelley:Like my husband and I sometimes, and we just end up sitting around like, no, let's just order it. Yeah, we do that. It's a trap. You've done most couples. I know. So what's the secret to your marriage? Oh, I'm on my second one. Okay. So I guess I would say choose well. Yes. You're listening to Lunch with Shelly. When I first started to go to the dinners during the George H.W. Bush administration. It was newsmaking. Well, it was newsmaking. It was, you know, much more informal. I'll tell you a funny story that George Clooney was at one of the dinners. And so we were— How gorgeous was he from a man's standpoint?

48:13Very, very handsome. And very nice. I got to tell you, just could not be nicer. I'll tell you. Is he short? No. Oh, he's taller than me. He's like 6 '1".

48:21Shelley:See, don't you like it when people you think are so good looking are short? Yeah. As a man, again. Yeah, no, he was great. But here's the funny story. So we went to one of these pre-parties in the Hilton. I forget who was having the pre-party. It was early in the evening. And my mom was sitting in the corner. And George Clooney walked in. There were probably maybe 15 people in this room. It's a meeting room, wherever they have the bar. Walked up to get a scotch or a Berber or whatever. And I hate to say, hey, can I get a picture with you? Right. But I walked up to him and I said, Mr. Clooney, I know you're here for the dinner, and I introduced myself.

48:59Can I just impose on you for one minute after you get your drink? My mom would love to say hello to you. So he walked over. He said, Mrs. Scully, I understand you want to talk to me. And do you know what they talked about for almost 20 minutes? Cooking? Rosemary Clooney. And George Clooney loved it. He loved it. My Aunt Rosemary. Of course, because they were so close. So that's how my mom connected with George Clooney.

49:20Shelley:But that's so genius because she was such a big deal. Exactly. And he didn't want to leave. Yeah. And I wish I had recorded the conversation because it was so natural. It was just, you know, not, you know. Well, she was in all those movies. That was the age. And that's all they talked about. What was the big movie? Like the Christmas movie. And he said, nobody asked me about my Aunt Rosemary. Anymore. And he didn't want to leave. And somebody said, I'm talking to Mrs. Scully. Just let me go for a few minutes. Oh, wow. And, of course, it got more crowded and more people wanted to be around him.

49:48Right. But he just was totally focused on her. And very, very, very nice.

49:52Shelley:She could have been a politician. That's genius. Yes. Well, but she truly loved Rosemary Clooney. Right. She knew George Clooney. My parents, too. You know, they talked about Ocean's Eleven, but it was all about Rosemary. Rosemary Clooney was the greatest in her day. Oh, my gosh. I mean, her voice was incredible. And my mom had a great voice, so I think she tried to, you know, admire talent. Do you? No. Me either. So tell us one more story. What is one of your favorite D.C. stories, like an oh-my-God-pinch-myself story? One of them happened right here at Cafe Milano. I'm not surprised. So my other daughter, again, I have four children, was back from college at Penn State.

50:39And she was going to be downtown, had some meetings, and said, hey, Dad, can you meet for dinner? And so I said, sure, let's go to Cafe Milano. Very nice of you. We came here on a weeknight. It was in the summer. It was 2018. And I said to her, I said, you never know who might walk through the door. It's so true. So literally, not five minutes later, who walked in but Hillary Clinton. Oh, right. And, of course, I know Hillary Clinton, and she was very gracious, and we chatted for a moment. And so then we're sitting down to have dinner. And another 20 minutes later, who walked in but Joe Biden.

51:14You're kidding. Former Vice President Joe Biden before he became president. We have a great picture with him. And we sat and talked about, you know, how he got here. We talked about his son. We talked about Bo, who had passed away a few years before. Like I said, I had an internship with him briefly. And it was just interesting. So, but this town is, you know, it's full of very important people who are also, for the most part, very normal people. Exactly.

51:38Shelley:When they say hello to you. But Kathy Milano is, and we want to thank them again for always letting us come here. It's such a party. Oh, it is. You just never know who's going to be here. And the food is fabulous. The people are wonderful. It is kind of tucked away. If you didn't know it was here, you might not see it. But those in D.C., it is the place. So this is my final question. And I should have told you about it, but I didn't. But there's no wrong answer. If you could have lunch anywhere in the world, where would it be and what would you be having? Oh, boy. I would love to have lunch. Can it be with somebody who's no longer alive?

52:16Shelley:Sure. Okay. I would love to have lunch at the American Embassy in Great Britain with Queen Elizabeth. Wow. I think, you think about the trajectory of her career from Dwight Eisenhower through Donald Trump. Susan Page has written a great, great book. She's been on the podcast, too. She's fabulous. I haven't read that one. I read the Barbara Walters one. The Queen is really, really, really good. And I spent some time, we did a program on D-Day and traveled through London and then traveled through Paris, sat down with Pamela Harriman, who was the U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain at her residence.

52:54And I would just be...

52:55Shelley:Wait, you've already done that? I did that years ago. Oh, my gosh. Pamela Harriman died many years ago. No, I know. I would love to have lunch with Pamela Harriman. Well, she was very interesting because the more interesting conversation was after the interview because we sat and had tea and she just recalled on the stories about her husband and Churchill and World War II and living in London. But then she was so incredible coming here. Well, she was instrumental in getting Bill Clinton elected. Right. He would not have been elected had it not been for Pamela Harriman. So my point is to sit down and talk with people like that at an embassy or at Buckingham Palace.

53:35That would be my dream conversation.

53:36Shelley:I know, but you have to, the other part of the vibe here, because we're a lunch podcast, where you would be, who you're with, you've nailed that down, what would you be having? Anything Italian, any kind of pasta, anything like that would be my choice. In Great Britain? Well, they've got Italian in Great Britain. My wife jokes that I could eat pasta eight days a week. Really? That's my favorite, yes. Plain pasta? No, no, no, no, no. It could be plain. It could be lobster ravioli. It could be shrimp scampi. It could be spaghetti. What do you think of black ink squid pasta? No, I'll skip on that.

54:10Really? You like that? I do. I've never had it, but it doesn't sound good.

54:14Shelley:I like everything that's unusual. Well, in Venice, it's a big thing. Yes, I love octopus. Really? Yes. I had it once. Octopus is sort of normal these days. I haven't had blowfish. I like raw fish. I like everything. Steve Scully, it has been such a pleasure to host you on this podcast. I knew you would be as nice as I've understood that you were. And you're very interesting and very lovely to take the time to have this absolutely chic, gorgeous late lunch at Cafe Milano. So thank you very much. Shelley, thank you. What an honor. I've heard things about you from Howard Mortman. And you're better in person than it's been described.

54:54Shelley:Oh, that's marvelous. I hope we can do this again. And the wine is phenomenal. Well, then I am a good orderer, but thank you so much for saying all those things. Please check out other episodes at www.lunchwithshelly.com or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And in the meantime, and as always, peace, love, and lunch.