Passion - Parti-time Custodians - and Antique Combs! With Billy Roland and Susan Abeles

0:00Shelley:All of my sisters and I have an eye on one of my mother's most gorgeous bracelet. There you go. Yeah, she's like, nope, we're going to sell it. Then you've got to go buy it. Yeah, then you have to go buy it. Okay. All right. You're getting a discount. I don't see it that way. Because anything versus free is not a discount. Free is way better. Right.

0:26Welcome to Lunch with Shelley. The podcast featuring conversations with colleagues, friends, family, business leaders. At lunch, here's Shelly.

0:37Shelley:Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Lunch with Shelly, where we're dining in Manhattan at the brand new Lily Pond Cafe down on 10th Street. This is going to be a really fun and interesting episode because we'll be delving for the first time into the auction house world with a great family friend, Billy Roland, and his longtime collaborator, Susan Abeliz. Susan and Billy have even brought some show and tell with them since their upcoming auction focuses on antique hair combs, which is rather unusual and quite chic. I also want to add that my beloved son, Sam, is here, too, to join in the fun and take some photos, so I'm already having a great time and so happy to be back in the city.

1:22Shelley:Let me give you some background on the Roland Auction House. and then we'll jump right into lunch. Billy Roland and his brother Robert have been working together to sell antiques since the early 70s. Always in the volume game, the dealers cut their teeth under others before opening their own eponymous gallery in 1973. Since then, they have been a mid-level mainstay in the New York area art and auction scene. They have built up a very strong presence in the areas of fine and contemporary art, while each auction also offers treasures from the decorative arts, sculpture, antique and vintage furniture, jewelry, and much, much more.

2:03Shelley:In 2010, Roland Antiques embarked on a new endeavor called Roland Auctions New York, also specializing in estate sales large and small. They eventually moved their operations to Long Island's North Shore, or as it is known as the Gold Coast, in 2018. To this day, the Roland brothers, Bill's sister-in-law, Linda, Robert's daughter, Danielle, Billy's wife, Beth, and Billy's niece, Rachel, are all part of this great family legacy. In extended family, there is also Junior, who's kept the trains running for 30 years, and Rob's grandchildren are gearing up for the biz, too. Billy and Susan, it is a pleasure to host you both on the podcast.

2:47Shelley:I can't wait to get into our chat and my delicious lunch. So without further ado, welcome to the podcast, you guys, and let's have lunch. And first of all, most importantly, cheers. Cheers. To health. To good health. And great sales. And great sales. Well said. So let's talk about Auction House 101. What does it mean to be a mid-level mainstay auction house? That's a pretty broad. I would just say broad or inclusive state. Oh, okay. Because it entails lots and lots of property that falls underneath what might go to the main auction houses. There's other fees and crispies, items. Today they have minimum$50 ,000.

3:42So there's a huge amount of property that falls between$50 ,000 and let's say$1 ,000. So our wheelhouse has good property, estate property, legitimate collections, and we run quite a gamut from useful instruments to automobiles.

4:03Shelley:Do you have a minimum? We try to have a$500 minimum, but it depends on the client and what we're selling. You know, the road isn't paved with gold all the time. You take what's beautiful and you hope for the best. But a lot of things that used to be wonderful are just a little different today. So they're still worth it. Right. But they're worth intrinsically every bit of the$500. And there's beautiful workmanship. I understand what you're saying. But what was precious in one decade might not be precious in another decade. They took beautiful furniture and they call it brown. Yeah. Sheridan, Chippendale, all the great styles, English furniture from the 18th century.

4:44Everything became brown furniture.

4:46Shelley:Right. It's almost insulting. Well, what does it mean, then along these lines, what's the volume game? The volume game for us, unfortunately, is a thousand lots a month. Oh, okay. Five thousand photos up on the internet every 28 days, not even a month. Every 28 days. Really? Yeah, so that's quite a challenge. You've got 20-plus people on staff, two editors, two photographers. Seems like two-by-two, like Price said. Two-by-two out into the world. Everything is two-by-two. Two experts for this, two experts for that. Wow. Susan with her jewelry goes way beyond experts. She's one of the top people we have here.

5:26Shelley:That's what I understand. So mainstay or mid-level is a reasonable amount of money in my eyes, and volume is just that you have so much stuff. So is that why you guys are on the Gold Coast now? Because you just had so much more space? Yeah, well, the building in New York got taken down. It was a historic building in New York. St. Dennis. St. Dennis. You can look up its history. Them taking it down was really... It just shows how money rules the world. But that's okay. We moved out to the island. We landed on our feet in a very well-known J.P. Morgan building. Yeah. And, you know, you can park.

6:02Everything's a lot simpler there. Right. But I miss New York.

6:05Shelley:Yeah, I bet. You were listening to Lunch with Shelly. You were saying that you were just at a penthouse in the Dakotas, and you got a bunch of fantastic stuff. So we did it, and like any collection, it starts in one place and migrates to another. Right. Everything develops in one place. That collector, that client, actually, it's a mistake that we're dealing with. But she had some beautiful, beautiful antique jewelry. And she also had a pentagon for really modern designer pieces. She's a beautiful, beautiful French furniture. But she has a great silver lining. It's just about the eye of collecting.

6:54It's about the eye of collecting. We see a lot of people that do that. I think the comb collection is a part of it just because you don't see that many combs.

7:04Shelley:Right. If you were to guess the collector of the combs, you'd know that she started in one place. I just want to be careful about each other, so she started in one place. Okay. And like any collection in a team, it's exciting about your partners. It's a lot to find something that you love together. And when we don't have specific stories about how they were acquired, we have a lot of people who want to ask her. She would always say, you know, my spouse, hi, and we found this in real little place in London. Right. Yeah, I love those stories. But I'm interested, Billy, you go first. How did you get into this business in the first place?

7:52Shelley:Like, did you always love beautiful stuff? Absolutely not. Okay. Yeah, right. I came from a very, very simple background, and I enjoyed making a living young. Right. I helped my mom raise such a child. So early in my life, I was married to a girl whose father was a big antique dealer. Oh. He didn't have a son particularly that he liked. He wasn't too crazy about his daughter. and my father wasn't too crazy about me so him and I hit it off my car so after a year and a half I left the door and I was kind of threatened by one of the managers that I would lose my job I remember coming in and saying okay fire me because I'm going to stay with her and he had offered me like a house and half the business we just got real close and I stayed with him for another dozen years and I told him now at this point I had loved the business he was a private buyer he was one of the biggest he was probably the biggest dealer wholesale dealer in New York so nobody had more inventory than he had so I learned from somebody who just all he did was buy and a wholesale dealer is also a volume dealer?

9:07Shelley:yeah you wouldn't call and only dealers could come in the gallery oh right right a private person couldn't come and buy that if you were there with another client you couldn't come in the door if there was a client it was a very tight knit business and it was all around downtown. There were mostly Jewish dealers and he was Jewish and I'm not. We got on and won the fight. Right. And I remember on my 25th birthday telling him I'm going to leave but you don't make me a partner. And when I became 30, I said, you know, what do you want to do? And he said, you want to go on your own, go on your own.

9:38We both had hard times after that. He had a lousy ending. For me, it's just been a joy because he taught me. He taught me volume. We were volume. He had four 10 ,000 foot people spaces in New York.

9:51Shelley:Oh my god. He was the biggest buyer in Sotheby's, Christie's, Doyle, Aster, Lubin, Tepper, you name any galleries in New York. The Gramercy, he was number one at Sotheby's. His paddle number was one. Number one at Doyle. Wow. And incidentally, I'm doing a talk. You mentioned Doyle. This week we're doing something in front of all the attorneys. So it'll be Heritage, Doyle and myself up on a panel. Oh nice. So they're all kind of, you know, It's a small world. Doyle is a bigger gallery by far. It started our regional, and I knew Will back when he was an antique killer. And we're very similar. It's just that they've grown leaps and bounds.

10:30Yeah. But there's nothing that they do that we can't do.

10:33Shelley:And, of course. The thing about the auction business is it's different every day. It's not like going and sitting every day. I was going to ask you if that makes your world so fun. Yeah. And it makes it not so obvious, and you're learning, and it can be difficult, but it has showed us the way you have to be passionate. I think in the auction business, you either stay or you eat, there's no attitude. Yeah, so it would be the holiday weekend, and I'm texting Billy about, oh, I'm just giving you a heads up. I have a lot of love. I found these Tiffany frames. Oh, nice. And I'm just saying, it's about watching and loving beautiful things and being a part-time custodian for them until they find a new home.

11:16Shelley:Right. And I think we're not only invested in getting the property cataloging it, but finding new homes. And we do take a personal interest. We're putting it back into the universe. And how did you start getting interested in this, Susan? By excellent. My first job was with O 'Neill. That's your first job out of school? I started as an assistant. So I literally learned the business from the bottom. I had money. It was before there were computers. I did the bed in the hospital. And my husband said, I want to do more. I see all this stuff I want to learn about. And you know, when I came from a very, my parents built a big century modern.

11:52It's a landmark house. They built it. I didn't have, there were no curtains on the house. It was a very, I didn't know anything about antiques when I started. So, but it was so interesting. And I think Billy is a lot like Billy. He has a very contagious personality. They're very smart. They see things differently. They don't make you or I might see them. But it's just the common thread. It's just complete passion. And you are into it. Yeah. I mean, it's not necessarily about money, but you want to get the jobs. We work hard to get the jobs that we really love. And sometimes we take the jobs that we don't really love because that's just business.

12:30Right. Right.

12:32Shelley:Oh, that's nice. But also, you guys, what I'm loving about this conversation is you care about the stuff and you wanted to find a home. You're listening to Lunch with Shelly. Let me ask you guys this question, and either of you can go first. What's your favorite era? Do you guys have a favorite era? You guys. You guys tell me what you need. All right, I'm going to tell you. Yeah. I actually don't have favorites. that makes a lot of sense yeah three things that I fell in love first one is a desk that we have that did not sell it is the most beautiful contemporary desk the working on it is amazing it's by a French designer called Louis Kahn the workmanship is super and I love it just because I appreciate the workmanship.

13:33And I'm sorry it hasn't found the fault. It's a very specific line. And that's why they introduced this movie.

13:40Shelley:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it, and it's going to come out for sale. The second thing I found was Billy pulled out something in a house, cleaned out in Brooklyn, down in the basement, and he said, I don't know what this is, but I think it's good in the barn. And I usually do a lot of the silver and a lot of the jewelry, so I didn't he smelled this is really true it was pretty ugly really? it was not ugly well it depends on where you're standing when you're getting it it was a rough job it was a rough job and you know some basements filled with who knows what and I unpack the box and bury at the bottom and take this and go wow this is gorgeous this is gorgeous and I literally There was a mark on the bottom of the head that I could not identify.

14:33And I asked a bunch of people and identified it. And I went home and spent three sleeping nights to learn it out. And it ended up being a beautiful, beautiful rare copper work. By Tiffany.

14:48Shelley:Copper work. Copper with an animal wear. Wow. Very unusual. Really unusual for them. It was very early, and they had the mark of SG, which was part of their last player. And it was just, I thought it was really beautiful. Of course, it sold to two co-opers, and you probably got on the market for a single little money, but the work was incredible. And when I say that, I couldn't sleep. I couldn't sleep. The third piece is so little. I've been with her three years. Three glorious years. I mean that from my heart. Yes. The other piece of iron, I bet you're going to be surprised when I say this, brings a piece of silver.

15:31What's the matter? I'm not talking about the vases. But I kept saying there's something beautiful about them. This was made by an early American. Yeah, you can put that in the center for this.

15:41Shelley:Oh. Oh, Sam. Good call. It was an early American gold silver aesthetic where I come in saucer. Again, the workmanship was truly amazing. There's a few things that you keep yourself and say, like, I should afford that. Yeah. But those were three things. I could literally maybe buy more without skipping a beat with the things I love. But that piece, the piece that we sold, actually sold you to a dealer for his personal collection. Let me ask you guys this question. What advice do you have for hoarders? Do you love hoarders or do you think everybody should be cleaning out their stuff all the time?

16:23No, they should call us. Rowlands. Yeah, Rowlands, exactly. What do I think about the hoarders? I think that they're good and bad people. They're just, I think they're people who, if they're hoarders and they've got great things, isn't that fabulous? What do I think about the hoarders? I feel bad for them. Really? Yeah, I feel bad for them.

16:42Shelley:I'm on the verge. Listen, one of my biggest... Porter Sam is going to be going through my stuff that I thought was so important. At least you got some stuff. Yeah, right. So, I mean, it's different. That's true. It's different. I did a job in Washington. It was an old military family. Not in... Old Town. In Old Town. Yeah. And I... I mean, a lot of things went to West Point. The house was full of... The basement was just chock-a-blown full of stuff. Yeah. As I got through digging, I came across all great military. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Dang, that's the reason why people keep it, particularly in D.C., because it's cool.

17:24Shelley:Like, I have White House stationery from 1993, which is not cool. And what in the world is Sam going to do with it except show somebody? But it looks the same as 26 stationery. Listen, my children are under orders. Yeah? Get rid of everything? Here's what I call my children. I have a lot of things in the house. Right. And I don't think they should have to pick and choose. Right. Just call in a reputable auctioneer. They say, who's that? I say, when I die, you figure it out. Exactly. Because I'm not going to tell you. But if you guys want something. Well, it sounds like it's going to be Junior.

18:03Shelley:Junior. Right? Is Junior going to outlive you? Or it could be any of it? Danielle. Danielle's going to outlive you. Danielle, okay. My son and daughter are going to outlive me. Okay, right. God willing. Yeah, right. They're all part of it. So they'll call in. Let's say they both want to be here. And hopefully Susan will be around and she can give them good advice. Give them good advice. Yeah. Well, you look amazing. No, but for your listeners. Yeah. If they have a situation that they don't know how to work out because they're siblings. Yeah. And both siblings want the same Birkin bag. Right. Put it in the orchid.

18:36Because if you own it against your sister, you're going to get half the money.

18:41Shelley:Right. If neither one of you is owning it, then you're going to get the money. You're going to get out there. But that's what I said. That's what I suggest. But then neither of you gets the purse. No. If one of you is going to outbid the competition, shame on you. Oh, I see. Put it at auction and then buy it yourself? Get against each other. You and your sister. You and your sister. How else? Let me tell you what happens in this business. Sam, listen. Here's what happens in this business. The smart sibling comes in and says, oh, I want that little painting. You know, the little Renoir that the artistic, the author, your sister, you know, the person who's an artist, well, you know, I want that glass.

19:20And the glass is worthless, and the Renoir's a good way about it. That's the problem with siblings. One might be smarter than the other. So it's really not even-handed. And I've seen that. I go in and I do a lot of appraisal work. And they say, this is going to California. This is going to Estonia. This is going everywhere. And I look and I say, wow, Estonia did good. and I look at the other woman and I say to myself, oh that poor girl she's all junk

19:47Shelley:that's what I was going to say but was sentimental that was my next question so you are very unsentimental and you are sentimental, Susan I think we've established this I don't know I just always feel bad for the underdog I feel like the person who was taking the person who was taking the better things knew what they were doing. They didn't say to their sister, that's worth a quarter million dollars. That's why I'm taking it. In some families there's equity, in some families there's not. And sometimes there's a big conversation in our family, and that's why sometimes we say it's just better to sell at an auction.

20:28It will bring its fair market value. You will both benefit from it. One person will be buying it.