The Journey of a Food Critic – A Master Class in Life

20:39Shelley:How did Phyllis then take you under her wing? I mean, when you come from Minnesota, so how did you know from roasted chicken? I mean, you knew, I imagine, venison. I also loved getting to. I was a college kid, right? And one of my jobs, we had two food sections a week. and one of my jobs was to test the bulk of the recipes. So Phyllis would go off to England and write about stilt and cheese and how it's made and everything. She would come back with like 40 recipes for stilt and cheese, and she goes, pick 12 of them and decide which three should be in the paper, right? Recipes? So I would test recipes.

21:17Oh, because you're a good cook. Excuse me. No, that's the whole point. You became a good cook? I was like Joe Reeder. I would have the same questions anyone else would have in a recipe, right? What does this mean to different instructions and everything? So I learned how to cook, courtesy of the post. I was making no money, but my grocery bill was like four times my rent.

21:43Shelley:Oh, because you couldn't write off the ingredients? No, the post paid for all the ingredients, right? So I learned very early on, I remember I was making Alice Waters pizza dough. I made an African peanut stew. I made an old colonial cake, like the old-fashioned way, back when people had raft of people to help them in the kitchen. And I did trend stories. And so at the end, I probably made over 1 ,000 recipes in the four years that I was Phyllis's assistant. Because I kept track of them. I was neurotic about that. These are all the things I make, cakes, breads. I learned how to clean squid and octopus.

22:21and I worked with Oregon Meats and you know so I got my hands dirty in the kitchen cooking and that was so important and then as Phyllis trusted me she goes you know there are a couple restaurants I need you to scout for me to see if they're good enough for a full review in a Sunday magazine which is where the Of course

22:43Shelley:I miss the magazine so much but anyway Yeah, me too I don't like change as much as I should I know you surround yourself with young people, which I try to, but different and new. It's still in Sunday. It's still in Sunday arts. Oh, it's in the arts. It's just not the magazine. I know. Which we haven't had for a number of years now. I'm one of the few subscribers. I get the post every day. I love that. I know. What am I, part of 70 ,000 people or something? Well, I don't have those numbers, but it is so much fewer. People are getting their news in different ways. And the trick is you need to be where those people are consuming the news.

23:22I know. Right? Whatever that is. Whether it's your phone, on a laptop, wherever. But I agree with you. There is something special about seeing things in print.

23:32Shelley:And holding it. Holding it. And also that casual way that you turn to B12 and like, oh my God, I never would have read this story. Exactly. Had it been buried. Precisely. Precisely. If I had to hunt for it online. Completely. So I'm not a Luddite, but I do think there is that lovely experience of going through. Editors have already curated for you, but that wonderful little surprise that you find in another section of the paper. But just to get back, I was her assistant for four years. It was magical. I met wonderful people. She would let me go out and reviews with her. And I got to work with a legend and someone who was really, really good at what she did on top of it.

24:16She was very good. She took her job seriously, but she didn't take herself seriously. I think that was really important, right? And I learned that. I learned what a good story was and what a bad story was, who is good at communications, who is not good at communications.

24:31Shelley:From a restaurant standpoint? How to sort of deal with PR people and all of that. That's so interesting. Yeah, that was really interesting. Yeah. And I was really her gatekeeper. I bet. You know, like her famous friends called, but so did everyone from New York and France and all these other things. And it's so important to be nice to the little people because, and I was a peon. They're everywhere. But I was transferring calls and taking messages. Exactly. And I would let her know, like, oftentimes, like, that person was really rude or whatever and duly noted, right? So I have always, as an adult with jobs with increasing importance or responsibility, I should say, I have always paid attention to the office workers and the assistants and that.

25:19I mean, even at the Post, I know how to change the toner. Right. Like, big deal. I'll live it myself. I'm not going to call somebody to do that, right? And I think it's good to know how those things are done. Yeah. You know, and it makes you appreciate other people. I didn't want to be someone's assistant for the rest of my life, though. So I left in, like, 1988. And I began this odyssey around the country. I went to Milwaukee. I was the food editor. So I went from being an editorial aide to the editor of a 30-page section in Milwaukee for two years. San Francisco calls. Well, hello. Right. If you're a food writer.

25:57Right. Milwaukee, San Francisco.

25:59Shelley:My God, yeah. You're not going to stay in Milwaukee. Yeah. Right. And went out there. I learned a lot about wine. I bet. The Chronicle was not a great newspaper, but it was a great food section. I mean, we had our own wine inventory. We had numerous people working on staff, interns cooking, testing recipes for us. We had an herb garden on the roof. We had two people covering restaurants full time. Oh, my goodness. I mean, that was, you know, what government politics are to the Washington Post, food and tourism and wine were to the San Francisco Chronicle. Yeah. And I got to work with a legendary editor there, Michael Bauer.

26:39But then I didn't want to be the B-string guy forever either. So I went up to the Seattle Post Intelligence. I was the food critic there at the smaller newspaper. And I did a profile of Nathan Miravold, who was the number two guy at Microsoft at the time. He was Bill Gates' ideas guy. He was this little cherubic guy. He happened to be a multimillionaire. But he was fascinated with barbecue. and he loved to cook so much that he took a stage or an apprenticeship in a French restaurant and he was like peeling potatoes and making sauces and learning how to cook and everything. I thought, here's this Microsoft guy, super cool guy, staging at this really good French restaurant.

27:19I said, no one's written a story about this guy. So I called and I arranged an interview and said, well, let's have dinner at that restaurant. So we had dinner at that restaurant. It was like three hours long. I thought, wow, this at that time was the smartest guy I'd ever had dinner with. And a week later, I got a call after the profile ran. I got a call from his assistant. She said, you know, when you were interviewing him, he was interviewing you. Microsoft wants to start this whole new thing that ended up being called Sidewalk.com. And I was a national restaurant producer in charge of setting editorial standards for how Microsoft would review restaurants.

27:58Go multiple times. Don't accept free food. You know, go anonymously. we opened shops. It was basically your weekend section online. I remember. Yeah. It was around for about three years. And it was honestly the best job I've ever had. I can tell I was going

28:19Shelley:to ask you if you were happy, but it is exuding from you. I never would have left had it not been sold. And the week after it was sold to AOL, they just didn't have the money for it. I mean, AOL and they just drove it in the ground frankly and I was hired as a food reporter by the Post and so there's like oh I'm back and I knew all these people and everything and a year later Phyllis Richmond decides to retire and so I was there and you never know when you're applying for these jobs is it better to be inside or outside so I was working like crazy that's such a good question it was like I was trying to do bigger and more ambitious stories and everything thing.

29:03But then the doors would open and like, oh, your friend for the Philadelphia Inquirer, the LA Times, or like, would be there to interview, you know, like someone sexy, shiny bobble from the outside. And it came down to two of us. Brett Anderson, who is now at the New York Times. He worked for the Washington City paper here. And I came down to the two of us. And it was a job that hadn't been open for like 24 years. So I was interviewed by everyone and their mother, everyone but the janitor, I joked. Right. Oh, let's see who the next critic is going to be. Well, I did get it. I was very lucky and it was so intimidating.

29:44I felt like I had to roll out every single idea I had at that time because I had big pumps to fill. Phyllis was really a legend. She'd done it all. She'd traveled around the world. And so I thought, well, let's start something travel-related, postcards from Tom, where I would fly to a different city and write three different recommendations from each city. Let's do a weekly gossip call. We called it the weekly dish. Let's do Ask Tom, where people write in with their questions.

30:16Shelley:That's a good one. I started a, well, I continued to chat, an online chat called Ask Tom. Yeah, I know. Oh, and it was also in print. In print, yeah. And so I rolled out all these things, and I did that for like 25 years. I got to celebrate 25 years. I didn't have any intention of leaving, but the last time the post offered a buyout, I took it. And I just thought, you know. It's so exciting. If I don't take this now, like buyouts never get better. Right. That pot of money never gets greater. and the way things are working in media right now, you can be your own brand. Exactly. And guess what? The traffic is down for a lot of, you look at radio or TV or print, those numbers aren't what they used to be.

31:04Shelley:The one thing I want to come back to is I had no idea that you were actually cooking recipes. I was always under the impression that restaurants are very reticent to give a recipe for anything. So why were they giving you recipes and why were you trying to make them? Was that like an obstacle or a checkmark to whether or not the recipe was good? Well, Phyllis was both the food editor overseeing two food sections and the restaurant credit. Oh, so this was for the food editing. I was working for her on anything that was restaurant-related or anything that was recipe-related. Oh, okay. So the recipe section you were making.

31:45That's where I learned how to cook, yeah. So I was doing that for the food section. Okay. Yeah.

31:48Shelley:And just quickly, when you go to a restaurant, like, what are the things that you tick off? I mean, I would imagine vibe and cleanliness and, I don't know, like, but you tell me. Yeah. I think, you know, restaurants can, like, there are numerous things. I think more and more, when I first started out reviewing, food was everything. And now I hear from readers and personal experience, service and hospitality are so important. If you feel like you're not treated well online or on the phone, a lot of restaurants don't have phones anymore. But if it's hard for you to make a reservation, that's not being hospitable, is it?

32:31Correct. Or if you get someone kind of gruff on the phone, like I don't have time to talk to you. Or they're snotty.

32:36Shelley:Exactly. Right. I mean, restaurants can't afford to do that right now. But I think... Frankly, they never could. And I can't stand a snotty restaurant. But go ahead. Right. And that sometimes happens with arrogance when places get a little too big or a little too popular. Right. But remember, there will always be down times, too. So people will remember you, how hard you were on them or to get a seat at or whatever in those rough times, right? And they might brush you off. Correct. So I do think hospitality is a huge factor. And that is something that comes innately. You can teach people to open a bottle of wine.

33:19You can teach people to serve or take away from the right or left. Those technical points of service. But real sincerity, every great restaurant I know interviews people not on their skills. oftentimes they have to reteach veteran waiters to work in their restaurant because these people have developed bad skills over the years, bad habits. But there's something about people not saying no to you or making you feel especially welcome by giving you a table or a little nibble. This just came out of the oven and the chef is just sending out little nibbles for you to try or trying it out as a special.

34:03or just to open the door for you. There doesn't even have to be food or a sip involved. It can just be, oh, is the music a little too loud? Well, we can turn that down a little bit for you.

34:14Shelley:You know, I think it's even a smile at the reservation desk. Absolutely. I really mean that. Like, hello versus, ugh. We're so glad to have you here tonight. Is your party here? Does it not bum you out when they won't see you if your entire party is not there? Yes. But here's the here's because I hear from both sides. Right. Right. Haven't we all seen people at table six sit down? Two people are there and then the four are like half an hour late, 35 minutes late, 45 minutes late. That table is not making any money. I know. Right. So I've seen it from both sides. I mean, if someone's parking and they're really, really friends are coming in 10 minutes.

34:51Shelley:Two minutes away. Exactly. You know, it's the same with people who save stools. Okay, if your friend is coming, like, in five minutes, I get it. But if it's a half an hour, can he scoot you over a little bit? Exactly. I'm just having one drink. Well, it's sort of like the beach chair mentality. Absolutely. It all comes down to beach chairs, right? Exactly. Well, I was just on vacation in Naples, and you just knew at this hotel. Is it Florida or Italy? Yeah, unfortunately. Everyone keeps asking me that, yes. And you just know that the people, like, they're not going to be there for an hour. but their stuff is all over there and then you can't do anything about it.

35:29Right. Right.

35:30Shelley:But anyway, that's like a barstool issue. I think it's up to diners to also present themselves well too. I think hospitality is a two-way street. Oh, I completely agree. You know, how many times have I seen or maybe I've presented poorly at a host stand like you're just irritated and you can't get mad at your dentist or your lawyer or your doctor the way you can at a host. Like, I've had a bad day. I'm going to take it out on you. Right. Like, what do you mean I have to wait five minutes? Right. You know? Well, people eat at different speeds, and sometimes a table isn't always available. But there is this grace period that I think should be allowed for the restaurant and for the patron.

36:10And beyond that time, you need to call again if you're any more late as a diner. Like, hey, hey, we are really two minutes away. Or the restaurant should say, drink on us.

36:23Shelley:Exactly. I completely agree. Just make it a little bit easier. I completely agree, but to your earlier point, it's impossible to call half the restaurants that you're trying to get in touch with to tell them that you're running late because they won't pick up. They won't pick up or they don't have phones. Or they don't have phones. The restaurants I go to, I think, still have phones. I don't think I've run into a zero phone restaurant, but they will never pick up. And you know it's impossible. Right. But it's such a big part of my life that I could go on and on, which I might. But anyway, back to you.

36:55Shelley:So it's the hospitality and the staff, I would imagine, and their attitude. And then food and then atmosphere. Well, I think atmosphere. Like, I don't want to sit under a Klieg light, exactly. Right, yeah. I think you don't have to spend a fortune on restaurants. But if you have good lighting and comfortable seats and the walls are painted a soothing color, that's really helpful, right? And I encourage restaurants to invest in soundproofing, even though diners don't see it. It's often the number one or number two complaint I get from diners of all ages. I know, you have a decibel thing. Ages, all ages.

37:43Shelley:Yeah. Not just those of us of a certain age. I heard from 20 and 30-somethings. I agree. It's too loud. I know. But it's too late. After you've already opened the restaurant and people are in there, it costs tens of thousands of dollars more to install that soundproofing. Right. Whatever it is. We had Sean from the Restaurant Association. Oh, Sean Townsend. Exactly. on, I think last year, but he was going on and on about that his job when he was head of the nightlife was a lot about soundproofing. Yeah. Particularly if you're in an apartment building next to a restaurant. Of course. Yeah. You can make a rake.

38:25Right. A place, I think. Okay.

38:27Shelley:So when you go in, those are your five things that you tick off. I mean, ultimately, I want the food to be good. Right. And I wish a lot of places would just, we don't need page after page. I think like with resumes, most menus would do well to be one page. And just give us your 12 hits. I agree. Just give us 12 edited, consistently good dishes. Oh, but I would, I like six maybe appies and six entrees. You know what I mean? It doesn't. Baker's doesn't. Well, you're right. So I guess that's 12. But maybe even eight and eight. I mean, like, I like a choice, but I don't like a book. Sure. Right. Maybe throw in a few specials or whatever.

39:11Exactly. Which makes it interesting for the kitchen, too. Right.

39:13Shelley:And also for, you know, a constant diner, like, it's nice that there are specials for me here because I'm here pretty often. I mean, the reality is menus are getting shorter since COVID because of labor costs and everything else. and you might see, oh, similar sauces on a couple different dishes because a good kitchen doesn't waste a thing. Right. So do you remember, well, two things. One, I think the funniest thing I ever saw you write, which I'm still talking about it 10 years later, was your review of... No, not Founding Farmers, which I don't like. Nobu. Oh, Nobu. That was the funniest thing in the entire world.

39:57Shelley:You're like, the gist of it was, D.C. doesn't need another obnoxious restaurant. Oh, my God. They were so full of themselves. They continue to be. I mean, Nobu is really consistent. So you got to love it. I do. I don't love the neighborhood. But to this day, the people are like, you had a reservation for two at six? And I'm like, yes. Yes, and the table, the restaurant is practically empty. Maybe it's just their shtick, you know. That's what I'm saying, it's their shtick. I think at least they're consistently obnoxious. Correct, correct, right. I mean, here's to consistency, right? Everybody wears black.

40:37Shelley:I am actually surprised that it's still open. I am too, and it's actually doing better than it used to. Well, good for them. Yeah, right. Whatever they're doing, keep on doing it. It's because the area, I think, is getting better. Possibly, yeah. You're listening to Lunch with Shelly. So let me ask you this, or I will tell you this and ask you a question. When I started on my absolute love of lunch, which was born out of my father's love of lunch and et cetera, et cetera. It's a longer story. But I have my dear friend Cheryl and I would have lunch once a week. And we started when we worked together at HUD and we would eat at the cafeteria.

41:17Shelley:Then we went to L 'Enfant Plaza. And then one day, like, everybody's boss was gone, and we went to 701. And I just remember. Oh, wow. It was so long ago. It was. Not only was it a splurge, but also I just remember linen napkins and a glass of wine. And it was, like, the most marvelous afternoon that I had ever had, you know, in ages. And you could walk there. Of course. But regardless, it just was amazing. And I know you and I both have a great love for Ashok. But tell me, do you remember like an incredible experience that you could share at a restaurant either early on or recently? And name the restaurant.

42:03Shelley:You might as well. I will. I had an epic disguise fail at Roberta Donna's restaurant. Do you remember? Galileo. Laboratorio, which was the restaurant within the restaurant at Galileo. I never ate there, but I remember it. It was 24 seats, and the chef cooked mere feet in front of you. And I thought I was so clever. I had this very expensive little disguise with a beard and a toupee, and I wore an ugly suit. I went with a buddy of mine. It was very expensive. It was this tasting menu, maybe 10, 13 courses long. Galileo was always expensive. Yeah, but this laboratorio, his experimental thing was even more so.

42:46It was very intimate. Right, right. And so there I am, like a yard away from the chef cooking. And the third course famously was this Italian wedding soup.

42:56Shelley:Steaming. I love wedding soup. Steaming. Oh, and all of your things. And I had this glue attached to my beard. And I had a mustache. And the mustache started curling inward. Oh, God. And a buddy reaches over and he goes, dude, you have to go to the bathroom. Your face is falling off. Oh, my God. So I remember that for the beauty of the food, the deliciousness of the food, but also like the first epic disguise ever. That's hilarious. And then I got into the CIA, the Central Intelligence Community, to review their dining room. I saw you read that. I saw you wrote that and I read that, yeah. That's super cool.

43:35So that was really cool. And that was really hard because I couldn't bring in any electronics, my phone, a camera. We couldn't bring in a post photographer. They assigned me to a CIA photographer. And as a little joke upstairs, what they did, they said, wouldn't it be funny if we got a picture of you at one of the hardest reservations in the country with a menu in front of your face? And so I stood up in a dining room with about 40 spooks in it, and I had my portrait taken with a menu in front of me, and the room burst out laughing because, like, oh, my God, you are one of us. You are one of us hiding.

44:13Shelley:Right, right, right. What I learned, I've eaten at the White House mess. I've eaten at the Pentagon and some of the generals' private rooms and everything. And the food at the CIA is really good. Really? I mean, it's... I'm not surprised. It's government prices. Right. You have to pay in cash. Right. Because no one can use credit cards there. Yes. That's so interesting. Because they would be attached... I don't think people have cash anymore. A lot of people are undercover, though. And so your name would be attached to a real identity. That is so funny. So it was super cool. That is really cool.

44:49Shelley:You know, most recently I've eaten at the Senate dining room. And the food is really good there. I haven't eaten there in a while. Yeah. Well, it's just like it was. I mean, it hasn't changed. You can still get Senate bean soup. Exactly. The black bean soup. Exactly. Let me also say, I have always tried to champion people who don't necessarily have publicists. I mean, you've got to cover the big celebrity restaurants because people are curious about them and they're often hard to get into. But actually, the most fun for me has been to review like the Hitching Post. the Hitching Post, which has been open since 1967.

45:34The original owners live up above. It's my favorite soul food place in town. I know you write about it. I've never been there. It's near Lincoln's Cottage, so you can do a two-for-thing. And you should really go there sometime. It has such a great sense of community. Kojo Nambi is there every single night. They have a jukebox.

45:56Shelley:Have you been? Where is it? They have great fried chicken. And because a number of their guests are vegetarians, they have like, and the current owner is from Guyana, but he grew up in India or with an Indian parent. They have a shrimp curry with no cream and they have a couple of vegetarian dishes. And I love that, that this place revered for its fried chicken and whiting and all these soul food staples. Also has a great happy hour, a jukebox with some of the best music. Like, everyone kind of knows each other. And then this owner, this young owner who is from a completely different culture, who's thrown a few of his dishes on there.

46:46Right? And it just, I love that. Well, doesn't it blow your mind that a kid from southwestern Minnesota is so familiar with food from all over the world and has traveled all over the world?

47:04Shelley:I mean, is it mind-blowing? I do. Because I sort of know where you come from. You know what that's like. I always felt like I had the best job at the Washington Post. Right. I still think it's probably one of the best jobs at the Washington Post. It wasn't just the food. It's also the fact you need a lot of people to eat out with. I had a posse of about... I wish I knew you then. Me too. I had a posse of maybe 70 people. People who live in Maryland, Virginia. People who are vegans. People who are lactose intolerant. Right, right, right. People who love lamb. Right, right, right. Who like the fancy place.

47:44People who loved only eating at the down and dirty places.

47:48Shelley:Or they'd only go within 10 blocks. I had those friends, too. Me, too. Right. I'm sort of becoming one of those people, but I'm better. Well, it gets, yeah. Because it gets uber comfortable. Here's what I would do. I mean, I've done a little bit of this since I've left the job. The best thing that I advise people, get familiar with six restaurants that you really love. that way at the last minute, like, oh, they'll fit you in. I know. I know it's Friday night. I know. I know it's rainy, but can you get me in and they can get you in? Exactly. They always can. Or they know your cocktail. Correct.

48:24Or they know your favorite table.

48:25Shelley:That's how I live. And my parents were the same way. But I try, I'm trying to shoot you. You want to be a good guest, too. You don't want to take advantage of those things. Absolutely. No, I care about it as much as they care about me being a good person. I always call if I'm late when I can. I always call if I'm canceling. You know, I never, like, never show up. I'm usually on time. And as I've always said, I mean, it's a symbiotic relationship, but I will never be the wealthiest or the prettiest or the most powerful, but I can be one of the nicest. And that's why I think that I have this wonderful relationship with restaurants.

49:06Shelley:And that's your superpower, Shelley. It is. That is because you are consistent and reliable. I smile. I'm not mean to people. You're a good customer. I sometimes, I mean, places that I love, I go out with friends who put on such airs and they return things or they act like what they think must be the manner born. But it's so, you know, they'll send back something or whatever it is. Who does that? Yeah. I know. I know. But, okay, so you also wrote. So moving forward from the post, and we've talked about fantastic chefs. And one of the chefs that I know who influenced you is Jose Andres because you were listening to him speak.

49:51Shelley:And he said to you, dream aloud. And that was very resonant to you. It did. So how did that manifest? I was at a food symposium in Copenhagen. In Copenhagen, which I've never been to. Which is an amazing food city, by the way. I heard. He was speaking with Rene Redzepi, one of the most famous chefs behind Noma. And they were having this conversation, you know, that famous chefs have. And he was talking about the importance of dreaming out loud. Because when you dream out loud, you say to the world, this is my plan, this is what I want to do. And that makes you responsible. Right. You have to follow up on that, right?

50:30Well, by coincidence, this whole weekend, I was flying back from there to Lisbon to meet my partner. And my editor calls me up and goes, Tom, I don't want you to be surprised, but they're offering buyouts at the Post. And I'm taking it. You know, it's completely up to you, but they're offering.

50:48Shelley:You know, now that you're saying this, yeah, the Post had a big exodus. Huge exodus. And I hadn't even thought about leaving. I mean, I love my job and everything. But when this, I saw this pot of money for someone who had been as long as I had been there. It was 18 months of salary and insurance. It's a lot, yeah. And I'd already celebrated my 25th anniversary, so that was kind of a tidy thing. And I just thought, this may not come my way again. And if there's any point at which I should leave the mothership, maybe this is it. maybe this is it. And you're still young enough to have a second, third, fourth act.

51:34Young enough, maybe. I have energy, and I have an interest in doing something else.

51:40Shelley:Yeah, and a joie de vivre. I mean, I think that's part of it, right? And I want to take the best parts, like things that I loved at the post, and put them to use. You know, everyone thinks like the free, quote-unquote, free food, which ultimately Jeff Bezos paid for was the best part of the job. The best part of the job was this. Yeah, I don't doubt it. Having dinner with really interesting people. With meeting people, right. Oh my God, I went out with people from the White House and actors and actresses and lawyers and people who were dying and starving artists. It was endlessly fascinating. It was a life, it was a master class in life.

52:22Yeah, that's a great way to say it.

52:25Shelley:I'm writing that down. That's probably going to be the title of our... Masterclass in life. Yeah. It really was. And that's why I knew we would love each other or I would love you. Because this is it, fundamentally. We need to make our joy and everything right here, right now. Bad things happen. Right. I get it. Right. But we need to have fun right now. Listen, that's part of the premise of this podcast. It's joyfully having lunch, joyfully having lunch. You're listening to Lunch with Shelly. So getting back to your future plans, I had the impression that you were doing some sort of a bipartisan breaking bread.

53:09Shelley:That's not your gig. You just want people to meet each other. I want people to meet each other. I think we all need to find more joy in our lives right now. So I'm doing this as a bridge to a newsletter that I want to do. And I'm working with some people on that. I hope to launch this. Talk about dreaming out loud again. I hope to launch this someday in March or April. And I'm working with some people right now that involves my interest in travel, food, cooking, and entertaining, and just living a better life. Yeah. It sounds a little Oprah-esque, and who cares? I hear it. I know. I mean, I hear you.

53:43Shelley:I know what you mean. I will tell you, I was lucky to create a community of like-minded people, especially when I did my chat every Wednesday. There are people out here who value quality things, quality travel, quality food, like good advice, and a quiet space. It's not going to be noisy. It's going to be like-minded people. And I'm under no illusion that you're going to have a zillion followers. If I just got 500 or 750 or 1 ,000 people who are like-minded people who like to do the same things that I like and want to join me on that journey, I am fine with that. Right? Because that's the reality now.

54:30Yes. It's not the – you can be your own brand now. And it's so fragmented in terms of what people are reading and everything. I'll try it out for a year or two. Exactly. See how it works.

54:43Shelley:And then you could do something else. The only thing you're wed to is your partner and your dog. Yes. Yeah. So I think we all need to be looking ahead, not backward, and do things, more lunches with Shelly. Yeah. This is really life-affirming, and I mean that in the best way. I couldn't take it any other way. Breaking bread with people is such a lovely thing. It's so important, and it's honest, and it's fun. And, you know, joy has sort of been my watchword, but it's becoming even more embedded, I think, in my psyche and my life. I'm looking at Cleavon because he's been super helpful in joy. And Cleavon is on the joy ride, too.

55:31Shelley:He's married. Well, I know. But even so. He's eating well. And by the way, could I just point out? The food was great. You know, what's really nice about this, you know, you're eating with people. You're not eating everything like Hoover vacuum. Right. You're slowly and consciously eating things, and you kind of eat less, and you eat more mindfully. And, yeah, we're having champagne. We're on a second glass. But do you notice we're not lugging it down? Exactly. We're just enjoying each other. That's the way we're supposed to eat. I know. And that's the way we're supposed to take things in. I would love to find joy in this country and also abroad.

56:14Shelley:So along those lines, along those lines, and this is a huge question, so not to make you nervous, but if you listen to me, then you know it's coming. So if you could have lunch anywhere in the world, and I will give you more than one option. If you could have lunch anywhere in the world, where would it be and what would you be having? Wow. I know, right? There are so many answers to that. I know. But what comes to mind? I will tell you. It is my mom's tuna salad in Worthington, Minnesota. She makes it with big chunks of tuna, lots of celery, a little mayo, and some pasta that she whips up. And she serves it in a Tupperware bowl, and it's absolutely delicious.

57:02I love that answer so much. I would, on the fancy side, I would go back to Steierck in Vienna and go for lunch on this little island that is some of the most sublime Austrian food anywhere in the world. Some of the most sublime upscale food in the world served so beautifully. I will never forget being served salmon, which they cooked with a topping of hot beeswax, and it just froze like a fossil on the plate. Or the fact that this white cart shows up and they have a little tiny shovel. And out of what looks like snow, which is actually powdered sugar, they have warm butter cookies. And they dust them off and serve them on your plate.

57:51Oh, my God. Like the ultimate in simplicity but also beauty and refinement. Yeah. Right? But the thing is, I guess there's joy on all sorts of different levels, right? Like the very high end, the very low end. Of course.

58:06Shelley:No, it's just where you would want to be. We're not fancy people. We're just happy people. Yeah. It's so real. But food and going out is the mainstay. And meeting you, honestly, it's beyond my thrill. I started off by saying that, and I'm going to end our episode by saying that because it's almost time to go. But thank you. I couldn't wait to do this lunch. It was marked with a big circle on my calendar. So yay. Believe me. Right back at you. Mine was big and red in my red sweater. So I know we have to go. Maddie Brooks, if you have listened to the entire episode, this is your shout out. Because Matt Brooks, our mutual dear friend, introduced us.

58:47Shelley:And I'm very grateful to you, Maddie. I'm very grateful to everyone for listening. I hope, I'm sure you haven't, but I hope you've enjoyed this as much as I have. Tom Seitzma is the coolest, nicest person as I knew he would be. And I pray that this will not be the first time that I dine with him, but I am so thrilled that he joined the podcast. So thank you profusely. Thank you so much for lunch. It's been a while since someone's paid for lunch. It's my pleasure. Anyway, everyone, thank you so much for listening. Check out other episodes at www.lunchwithshelly.com or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

59:26Shelley:And as always, and in the meantime, peace, love, and lunch. Thank you.