How to Break Into M&A: Lessons from Todd Manley Part 2

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0:45M &A is hard enough. Dealroom gives you the structure, automation, and visibility to do it right without blowing your budget. Check it out at dealroom.net or tap the link in the episode description. Here's to the deal. I'm Kisan Patel and you're listening to M &A Science, where we talk with deal professionals and learn valuable lessons from their experience. This podcast focuses on stories, strategies, and what actually happened during M &A deals.

1:26Hello and welcome to the M &A Science Podcast. This podcast is part of a mission to rethink how M &A is done. The old school, settle that approach, it's dead. Firelet M &A is all about strategy, alignment, and efficiency, putting value creation at the center of every deal. And let's be real, it's not just about closing the deal, it's about making it successful and successful. We uncover what truly works in M &A by learning directly from the best. I'm your host, Kisan Patel, founder and CEO at Dealroom and chief scientist at M &A Science. Today, I'm sitting down with Todd Manley, VP of Corporate Development Integration at Intel.

2:05If you're not familiar with Intel, they're an American multinational corporation and technology company headquartered in Santa Clara, California. They design, manufacture, and sell computer components such as CPUs and related products for business and consumer markets. Traded on NASDAQ under INTC. Todd's been in the M &A game for a long time, but what really stands out about him is how much he's learned and shared along the way. He didn't take the traditional path into CorpDev. That's exactly what we're diving into today. how people from all kinds of backgrounds, finance, legal, ops, you name it, can break into M &A and actually thrive.

2:44We'll also get into some tips for interviewing both as a candidate and hiring manager and how to build a strong network in the M &A world. This episode is part two of our conversation from last episode. If you missed part one, I recommend giving that a listen first. Otherwise, let's pick it up right where we left off. It's interesting you mentioned how perhaps that wasn't being taught in school. I taught a course at Santa Clara University for a long number of years. It was interesting because it was a leadership curriculum that gave you like a little asterisk on your degree when you graduated, but it was noted there.

3:20But the curriculum was interesting because the first class or the first two classes were deep into some leadership practices. At that point, Barry Posner was the dean. He had written the book, his research partner, I think it was the leadership practice. things like inspire a shared vision, model the way, challenge the process, those kind of things. The students had a little bit of a framework around leadership. And then as I came in, what I taught were more of like, how do you actually take some of those principles, put them into practice? We talked about things like networking, how to work in teams, how to have difficult conversations and such.

3:52And so there's aspects of how do you take some of these nuggets that excite kids and interns and younger people in the workplace? And if they're still on their undergraduate journey. How do you plug that in and highlight that this is really important to you? You can learn from it. And it sounds like the story you just said, this guy was just completely jazzed up, excited about every conversation he had and just where things went. That's a new power and lock. I still do this today. I had that same outreach. And I usually, what I try to do is frame a problem that I'm trying to solve. Growing a startup, there's always something like, hey, I'm doing my first VP of sales hire.

4:27We're trying to scale this new function now, trying to figure out what's the best structure and something to reach out to CEOs. I got a sense you've been there, done that. And the more precise or targeted for, you know, I need help with this specific thing. I've had a really good response rate and I still continue to use that as a lever. I'm sure you have an opinion of fill in the blank. I have a sense you may have experienced this. And it's interesting because if you start asking the right questions and listening the right way, you clue in real quickly into the care abouts that someone has. And you just start asking like the simple questions.

4:57The next thing you know, they're talking for another 20 minutes and you're learning a lot from them. We sort of mentioned a couple of things. Like I talked about just direct LinkedIn, which I'm a huge fan of. Yeah. All of a sudden you go global with that. And then there's events, which is an important one. Are there any other avenues that you found pretty valuable? I do think there's like a flywheel you create. So when you meet people, there's a way you can get referrals or other intros without being obnoxious about it. I might've been like an early adopter of LinkedIn, maybe back in 2003 or 2004, I got an email once and I was like, congratulations on being a member.

5:30You were member number like 10 ,432. Oh, wow. Something ridiculous like that. I've always appreciated just the general sharing of knowledge that like that platform is afforded M &A practitioners, whether it be celebrating the wins of people in your network or others who've done big deals, small deals, difficult deals, what have you. I always like hearing someone celebrate their team and the people they worked with on. Hey, we announced this or we closed that. I think that's really great. And I also think it's having the humility to sometimes there's different groups out there where it's like, hey, I've got a problem and I don't know how to solve it.

6:06But I'm sure someone else has done something similar and I'm here to learn. And kind of that ideation and thought partnership in discovering that, OK, someone else has dealt with that before. Someone else has helped solve it maybe in a different way. And here's how I need to think about it. My situation. There's a lot to be said in just getting back to the basics of meeting people in person, developing a relationship, developing an interpersonal connection that just hiding behind your laptop or your keyboard just doesn't get you. That's why I've always enjoyed going to conferences in the Bay Area.

6:40We've got a couple of different groups that get together quarterly or twice a year just to kind of exchange notes, share and commiserate, celebrate. is valuable because the work that M &A is, it's not easy. Sometimes there's situations where you're like, I don't wish this on anybody. So there's some lows. There's also some incredible highs where you just feel like you're invincible. You don't want to do too much and go cause bodily harm. And that's a different podcast to tell you about all the injuries I've had in my body over the years. But I'm glad we're coming out of COVID. I'm glad it feels like we're starting to get back to human interaction.

7:17Tangentially, I think a lot of organizations are trying to figure out how do they strike that right balance with bringing people back to work to be successful versus the efficiencies of maybe some hybrid work or working remote. But at the core of who you are and the work you do and the connections you make, it's super valuable to make those one-on-one connections. Hey, I got to ask you one, because I don't have experience working in a large organization. Networking within the organization, Because oftentimes I'm boggled by folks I meet and they're just, they don't do that. They almost like... So that boggles me too.

7:50Because I ran into someone at this event who worked at a company I had formerly worked at. And I just casually asked, hey, who's running this part of the business or that part of the business? They didn't know. I was like head scratching. Like, how do you not know? You should know. But finish your question. Well, the pattern I've recognized is when I've seen... We had Harry Kramer on here and he came in as like finance associate to CEO track. Just grew up through the company. I've seen the partners in their 30s. But the common element was networking extremely well within the ranks. Yeah. And then also being able to solve their boss's problems better than the boss does.

8:27Those two things will lend you to a high level of success within a large organization. So like networking doesn't just happen because you're here and you're just like, hey, look at me, come network with me. You have to have some purpose around it. You have to put in the action to go network versus being the receiver of networking. I joke, my kids played athletics. I would always joke with them, especially when there were situations of physical contact. I'd say it's better to be the hammer than the nail. And my son knows this very well because the one time that he was the nail, he broke his wrist.

8:55Playing soccer, it was a 50-50 and they came together shoulder to shoulder. The other guy just came in with a little more intent. Son went down, put his arm down and wrist got broken. So he learned his lesson. And it was interesting because he learned that lesson when he was maybe 13. And to watch him play high-level club competitive soccer, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. And that hammer mindset, oh, it was like tearing kids up. I had other parents that were screaming at this kid. My kid, I'm just going, yeah, he's the hammer. But I think you have to go out with intent. Large organizations can be so big that people just don't know where to, okay, where do I start?

9:30Who do I start with? Where do I go? Do I start at the top of the organization? That person might not have any time for me or do I aim for the middle? So as you're thinking about maybe some strategies in larger organizations, okay, who do you work with right now that perhaps has been there for a while and they've got a network. It's almost like a logarithmic kind of network to network and it's exponentially like next thing you know, you're within like two people who can get you to the expert who does X, Y, or Z. You reach out and you start networking with that person. It's a bit of the art of how to leverage those around you who know others to get to what you want to learn or who you want to reach out to.

10:05And sometimes it's just being like, look, I have an interest in this or I have an interest in that. How do I get there? And people will say, oh, you should go talk to Julie over there. She did this for five years, but she's been in her new role for two. That's a really good point. There's sort of being in the conversation where you're really listening. You're really trying to learn from a person's experience and just keep your mind in that listening mode, active listening. But then there's also a point when you got to share what your goals or what direction you're trying to go. So just so that's clear, that lends to more of those purposeful referrals and introductions without being like forceful.

10:39Yeah, and not feeling like you're kind of salesy. When you do that, you build real rapport. And then a person, they want to generally help you out. They put that extra effort in. And two, it's just interesting how listening to people, sometimes you help them work their own issues out just by. Yeah. Or sometimes in the conversations, you find yourself articulating something and verbalizing it and getting some sort of reaction back for it. you almost sometimes accidentally solve your own problem without even knowing it. Exactly. Those are great on just the networking approach. The thing I really struggle with right now is maintenance.

11:09I feel like even now, maintenance is tough. Do you go through your network and start stack ranking it? This is the most, you know, you try to do that, but then that evolves over time, depending on what you're doing. Do you create a cadence for staying in touch with folks that, hey, this person's on my once a month, once a quarter, once a year, and see it when I see it? You and me, I went dark on you for a long time because of how busy I was. Unfortunately, that was the case. But you do bring up a good point. You have to be really purposeful around maintenance and remind yourself that you do need to do some sort of maintenance.

11:40Imagine, I see how much enjoyment you get out of bringing your daughter on the podcast and her contributing. But imagine if you treated, let's say, view your relationship with your daughter differently. And instead of her being your daughter, she is a colleague of yours in the industry. Now, imagine if you didn't engage with her for three months. That just feels really distanced. Like, oh my dear, if I detach myself as a parent, that just feels wrong. It's interesting because you can think back to people you know, friends, people in your network, and you can be like, hey, I can call up this person within 30 seconds.

12:10It's like, no time has passed. Those are really special. You can't be absent in focusing on maintaining your network and staying in touch with people. And I'll be the first to say that I know I can do a better job of that. Interestingly enough, there was a period of time where I commuted to work on my bicycle. I enjoyed it. The fitness, dodging cars, not trying to get injured. But you know what was something I missed? Actually being in the car and pulling up the phone and being like, I haven't talked to someone, I'll give them a ring. And just some of those ability to just have that time to make the connections.

12:42And I think that's really important. And there's other ways that we can maintain the network, whether it's dropping the text, just say, I just contacted someone that I hadn't talked to in two years. I saw on LinkedIn that they had gotten promoted. And I gave them the thumbs up, congrats on LinkedIn. but actually got on my phone and said, hey, congrats, we should go grab coffee. It's been a long time. A bit more intent and keep that in front of mind. I know I can do a better job. A lot of people struggle with that too because like you'll have that interaction and you'll hear the other person say, I'm so glad you reached out.

13:12I've been meaning to do this too, or I've been remiss. There's a human connectivity thing that you can't forget. We're not all trying to get the biggest network on LinkedIn, trying to get an ecosystem that is there to support us, to help us grow, to we contribute into, they contribute into us. It's much more multifaceted than just a number. You know, back in the day, I'd have Friday afternoons were pretty open. And I would just call people. Yeah. It's fun. It's like a friendly prank call. You just kind of joke, you know. There's people you know. It doesn't call them out. Yeah, not a Shadur Sanders phone call.

13:43But it's like a nice surprise. You're just like, hey, that's what I call. I give you shit. Hey, good to talk to you. But now I don't have any time anymore. We need like an AI bot. They're actually trying to do one. They're using like Delphi AI and they're trying to make a bot of me with feeding all the podcast transcripts. I don't know how that's going to work. I'll let you know on that. We'll have bot to bot conversations in the future. Networking, definitely the most underrated, undervalued skill. So highly encouraged to put some reps in towards that. What I do is I tell the up and comers, 30 minutes a week, just go on LinkedIn, connect with folks and try to book intro calls and use that as your muscle to keep building networking.

14:21Here's why I'm reaching out to you. your background interests me in this or that, like some sort of little hook. Keep doing it. You'll get good at it. Hiring. Yes. I got to, I want to learn from you. You built a lot of teams, successful teams. I've heard so much praise at Marvel, particularly like people are always like, you want to go learn M &A, go see what they're doing over there at Marvel. You're too busy doing deals to talk to me when you're at Marvel. So I was just curious, you know, in general, a big part of it is just getting the right team working together. If we can talk through, what do you look for when you bring somebody to your team?

14:53How do you spot somebody with real potential? And is that true at Marvel? Was that really, they were doing things right over there? They had gone through a period of change where they brought in a new leader. He brought in his new leadership and that opened the door for them to turn the business around and start doing some acquisitions. I was not there for the first acquisition that they did, but there was so much positive momentum around how it worked and how it added value and benefit to the business that it created a flywheel effect. and that the effect naturally carried into the subsequent deals.

15:25That was a model that was a bit more of the National Guard, no real dedicated quote team except for a couple of us. But we had some outside assistants that would come in, some consulting assistants that would help. But you had people within their areas that really enjoyed doing the extra work it took to do M &A work. In those instances, they all recognized that, hey, I've got my day job and I've got my integration job. Or I got my job that I'm doing diligence and other work to suss out. Is this the right thing? In those instances, people enjoyed flexing up to participate and help. And it was really great to see.

16:02Pretty cool. Yeah. They got a culture where they were bought in and wanted to lend a hand. Yeah, they were bought in. It was a culture of, hey, I know that maybe someone else on the team would do good if I could bring them in. And they could get some exposure, some apprenticeship around this and almost be a backup to me or end up being the rock star of the group. It's fun to see how momentum around deal work shows up differently in different organizations, how they're structured and what they're trying to accomplish. How do you hire the best? There's no magic formula to it. I've had my own personal missteps and seen good deals, bad deals.

16:37and I see in myself personal traits that I can't put my finger exactly on what good feels like, but I can trust my gut because I know what bad feels like. I've had enough good experiences. I feel like I know what good feels like. And it sometimes just comes down to intangibles of just how does someone handle themselves in the interview? How are they able to articulate their background? I'm a big fan of behavioral interviewing. Tell me about a situation when you did this or that. And some of the foundations of behavioral interviewing is that past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior.

17:13In the course of an interview, and I understand some of the things you did, I can then maybe throw out some hypotheticals to say, how would you think about this situation? Or how would you think about solving this problem? And it may not be a problem that is specifically tied to the role that I'm hiring for, but maybe it's a question that highlights something I mentioned earlier around, I'd like to see leadership at all levels of the team. So maybe it highlights something there or highlights high area of ambiguity. How do you break that down? How do you think about that? What's really underrated is it's difficult to do this work when you have a mindset of that's someone else's problem to go solve.

17:52Kind of feeling like this is the box I work in and this is all I do. There's so much to be done in M &A related work that if a candidate just shows that willingness to be like, I'm willing to do something that maybe I'm not the expert in, but I'm willing to learn and I'm willing to grow. That means a lot to me because there's always going to be more work than there are hands. If someone can feel comfortable with taking on something that is going to give them growth, going to learn, maybe they don't see it in the moment, but you see it in their background that you're like, you know what? If they were put into an opportunity that might be, they may feel a little difficult for them to step into and execute.

18:33But you've seen how that work can play out and perhaps the growth that can be had from those experiences. That's pretty valuable. You can't typecast candidates who want to get into M &A because they want to get into M &A because there's something about it that intrigues them. And like I said, it may not be for them. They may do one deal and be like, that's not for me. That's okay. But there is some reason why they're intrigued by it. Discovering through conversation, through interviewing, like, why is that? What about it? I see the wrong answer would be, I just want to do deals. Okay, tell me, like, why do you want to do deals?

19:06You know, is there... Solving problems. It's something... Right, like, get to those deeper introspective points that show up in an interview that gives the hiring manager or the hiring team a better sense of, okay, we know who this person is. We know how they're going to show up. we see why they want to do this. That's important. So how they can articulate their background and then you're looking at some of this historical behavior and just anticipate what the future would look like. And then ownership and their drive, what's driving the drive. Those are the main things. Those are pretty important to me.

19:40Humility. You can't come into doing this kind of work thinking you're the expert that knows everything. I'm always learning something new. I've told my team, if I'm not acting that way, please tell me and slap me on the wrist. I do feel it over time. As you've had enough experiences, you start to develop a trust your gut feel. Yeah, that's true. That doesn't feel it. And I've had some interesting conversations with peers who, if you think to trades in the past, like I'm thinking like in the 1500s, 1600s, like a blacksmith. You just didn't become a blacksmith and start producing the best swords in the world for the knights of the round table.

20:15You learned your trade. There's a bit of apprenticeship that is valuable to just recognize that that's important in this kind of work as you get exposure, as you do different kind of deals, as you learn from different problems that are solved. What's something that you wish someone would have told you earlier? And the one that always I come back to is there's a ton to learn from the journey that you're on and don't get distracted by the destination you want to get to. Destination is a great goal. It's your North Star. I want to get over there. I want to do this or I want to achieve that. That's great.

20:46But don't let that be blinders on you to being present in the work you're doing today and the work that is coming up tomorrow to not learn from the journey. I can think back to a couple of times in my career where I got a little too myoptic on that destination and there was so much more I could have learned from the journey if I just had my older self slap me upside the head and say, Todd, learn from the journey. I totally agree with that. I learned the exact same thing. It's just like performing in the present. Yeah. Be present, be in the moment. Is there anything you do to quantify a candidate like test projects, business case?

21:23I've seen people do things like that. Hey, let me give you a problem. Let's come back in three days. I'd like to have you write something up, see something. I've never subscribed to a lot of that just over the course of the conversation. I get a sense of what a person can accomplish. There's not a bar that I'm looking for them to hit. Now, that being said, I'll share an old story. When I was doing Oracle work, I did use some technical code and I would hand it to a candidate. It was about a page and it was written in PLSQL. I said, can you identify what the problem is in this code? Not everyone would know.

22:02That was informative to me because the code itself, it was recursive. It kept calling upon itself. It would be the equivalent of us watching us on video and then being in an endless loop of you or I saying the same thing over and over. And you want to just hit the side of the television or slap your laptop monitor, like skip forward. That was probably the one time where I actually got some pretty technical of something. And I actually busted that out with a friend who was interviewing for a role. He got so upset that I put him through that. Oh, that's so funny. He was really upset. That's interesting because I always thought it's good.

22:34But I always try when I do any kind of role hirings, some kind of test project or some trial, something. I mean, maybe it comes out in the way I do some behavioral interviewing and just the flow of the conversation of speaking in some hypotheticals and seeing how people kind of handle that in the moment. I think it's different to you sort of are looking at different roles and different background and professionality or earlier stage company. I got kids right out of school. It's like, yeah, let me just see if you can jump over this fire pit and if you can do the job there real quick. I want to flip it where I'm somebody that wants to come work for you.