What a US Investment Bank MD Really Looks for When Hiring Graduates

0:01This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. What does it actually take to build a successful career in markets? Today, I'm joined by Jamie Philip, who started his career trading at a hedge fund before spending nearly 19 years at JP Morgan, ultimately becoming Managing Director and Head of EMEA Futures and Options Execution Sales.

0:44We're going to talk about what an MD really looks for when hiring graduates, the mistakes people make early in their careers, and why trust, reputation and being teachable matter far more than perhaps you might think. But perhaps, Jamie, to start from the beginning, like I do with all the guests that we have on the show, how did you first get into finance? Thanks, Anthony. It looked great to be here on the Market Maker podcast. So yeah, a long time ago, I was trying to go through my memories of when I got into finance in the late 90s, early noughties. So I didn't go through the conventional graduate training route.

1:24I went to university up in Scotland and I always wanted to get into markets, but I almost had a sort of naivety about me that I just came down to London to try and get into trading and markets. I applied for a few graduate schemes. I got a decent degree, but I think I realized that as it is now, there's an extremely competitive marketplace to break into. and perhaps my university being Aberdeen University in the north of Scotland probably wasn't on the top of people's applications. So I came down, I definitely had that, like I said, that naivety about me and applied for internships, jobs in operations, anything that would get my foot in the ladder.

2:13So I ended up getting a job in operations at one of the investment banks and it was really interesting to adjust into the corporate lifestyle, straight from university into that corporate lifestyle. And I think that first year, two years, was really important just for me to get my bearings. You know, I admire the graduates that come into, and the graduates that I saw come into J.P. Morgan, that have this razor focus, this, you know, I sent you a specialist degree and just understand the practical theory behind the markets much more than I did. But the first couple of years gave me an ability to adjust myself to the city.

3:04And I guess I continued to apply for other jobs. I guess at my lucky break, I applied my first front office job. I applied for a junior dealer at a systematic hedge fund, Aspic Capital. And yeah, that was my first job in front office. You just mentioned there that you went on the buy side first with trading, which is kind of unconventional because most people will go and work at a bank and then go the other way. So what was that like? What was the difference at that point? And then why make that move from buy to sell side, which again is unconventional? It is unconventional. People do do it, but I think, so I guess, first of all, the job at the hedge fund, amazing job.

3:52First job in the front office, it was back in the days, and it sort of ticked all the boxes, because I came down and wanted to be in markets from Scotland, wanted to be involved in that high-optic world. Back then, the trading floors and open outcry and doing deals. So that job was exactly that. it was calling up the trading floors in Chicago and New York and also in London. We've still got the London Metals Exchange here and the Petroleum Exchange back then and doing deals with the floor executing trades for the hedge fund strategy. So I thought I'd hit jackpot. I thought I'd made it. I think the reality of a job as an execution trader is that it's a great job.

4:44Everybody treats you extremely well. You're the client. You are treated like a VIP. This is an early guy in his early 20s being taken out, winded down by brokers because they value the business that your firm gives you. And I did that for a few years and I really enjoyed it. But I think I saw that there was a wider world out there. I potentially, obviously I spoke to all the counterparts parties on the street and I could see that there was a different challenge on the sell side. And I made the decision to go and try my luck, basically, to try and challenge myself. Honestly, I loved that job, but I thought that, am I going to spend my whole career executing trades for a systematic hedge fund?

5:38And I built up the context and I started to speak to people and thought that, I could go and start my own thing, start something from scratch. And that was a big jump because I went to a smaller bank to start up their commodity institutional futures desk on my own with one other person, which was a big jump at the age of 26, 27. But because I had the backing of my old employer to do a bit of business and I knew a few other people on the buy side, I was able to build up a little bit of a book of business. But when we've spoken before, I mentioned that first year going from buy side to sell side.

6:16It was a huge eye opener. I'd almost been in a honeymoon period on the buy side. You know, everybody's nice to you. You've got a great job. You're in the markets. But in a way, you don't have the downside. You don't have your own business that you're building. and moving to the sell side I was a young mid-twenties person plonked on a desk it was a smaller bank but it was a proper old school brokerage outfit you know sharp elbows who's this young guy trying to steal our business or trying to grow his own business but what's he actually doing he's trying to bring in the hedge fund business we already do some of the hedge fund business so it was it was an eye opener but I had to earn respect.

7:06I think that's the difference. I had to earn respect because I came from the buy side. When you're the client and you get, wait, you might not get personal respect, but the street respects the business that you're bringing to them. So they will treat you in a certain way. I had to earn respect from clients that was going to give them a good, you know, good service. And almost more importantly, the other brokers around me that I had the ability from scratch to build up a business. So I spent that whole year thinking, what have I done? What have I done? Can I have my old job back? This was, but what it provided me with was a reality check.

7:49The life in finance and sales and trading is difficult and you have to see all sides of it. What within you then was keeping you going at that point? I don't know if you can remember your mentality. So yeah, you're having to prove yourself every single day. What internally is fueling that? Fear of failure, I think. I think it was a lot of it, fear of failure, and a light at the end of the tunnel that this might actually work. Because you get a couple of wins. And it's different when you're working as a trader at the end of the deal of somebody else's decision. You're executing that trade, which is, as I said, a great job.

8:32But this was my business that I was building. The value that was quite clear to me that what I was putting in, the results were as a result of what I put in. So I could gradually build things up. And the satisfaction of doing that was huge. And again, I will speak potentially about what I look for in a graduate and how you build a reputation, et cetera, a bit later in the pod. But what I found there was that reputation and consistency is so important. What ended up happening, we built enough business at this bank for JP Morgan to come in because they needed a team to do that because a client had referred us or referred me to them.

9:25So that's what I'm talking about, building up your network, doing a good job, being able for the client to have clarity about exactly what they're going to get from you when they pick up the phone. That enabled me and the team to get that referral to go to the bigger bank and to start that business there, to take what we've built and have a bigger platform to do it.

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10:14And then going into JP Morgan, I guess it's quite easy sometimes to look back in retrospect and all you do is look at the last role. And you go, oh, you were MD, running EMEA futures and options, execution sales. But people then forget that that was almost a two decade journey. and people probably assume, well, if you're an MD, you've probably just been really good and been super successful and it's been a straight line, which I'm sure that definitely wasn't the case. So what was that, you know, kind of journey up to that point? So you kind of switch, you get into JP and then what was that like going through those, you know, 18, 19 years?

10:55Yeah, it's a long time, 18, 19 years when you think about it. And you're exactly right. It was not a straight line. It was quite the opposite. And what that first year taught me, I look back and when I was thinking about what I was going to say on this podcast, I did look back and you start to, as you get a bit older, you do start to look back the last 20, 25 years of your career. And that first year, when I moved from the buy side to the sell side, that taught me hustle. That's what it taught me. And I was able to bring that to JP Morgan. I said, well, I'm going to try and make this succeed. If it doesn't succeed, it's not going to be for the want of trying.

11:35And I'm still right at the start of my career here. And you will go through periods in your career where all you have to do is work hard. You have to graft. You have to commit. You have to integrate yourself into the corporate environment you're in and work hard and put yourself out there and put that hustle into the business that you're building. And that's what we did at the start of the business at J.P. Morgan. Again, you're a new business going into a massive bank, so you have to prove yourself. You have to integrate yourself. You have to build relationships within that corporate structure.

12:16That's also very, very important. You need to work your previous firms and the way that you did business and the clients that you spoke to and the way that your team operated might not work exactly in the bigger organization. So you have to adapt and amend the way that you do things potentially, but you have to grow. And that often means change. So I learned that too. But I think what was key for me as well is talking about not a straight line. In my late 20s, early 30s, I was asked to go abroad to China to help set up the China-JP Morgan joint venture to trade futures on the Chinese exchanges, which at the time was more internationalized now.

13:07But at the time, it was a completely domestic market available only to trade houses that have large commodities that was available on those exchanges that have an entity in China. So, Jigri Mogul was one of the first international banks to move over to start up a JV to be able to trade on those markets, which are obviously hugely important and influential to the price of commodities worldwide. So, to me, it was a very exciting opportunity. But again, I almost had to go back to the beginning again and relearn how to operate in a completely different culture, completely different set of markets, managing a local team.

13:54And that was a huge learning curve. And speak about periods of your career where you feel extremely uncomfortable. That was another one of mine. I wasn't in a nice expat apartment in Hong Kong or Shanghai. Joint venture partner was in a place called Zhongsan, which is on the south coast. Five million people live there. None of them work in finance for a big bank. And so there was that period of adjustment personally and culturally that was difficult. um but it was hugely it was a huge experience for me doing that how do you so it seems like there's been these like big challenges that come and you've you've just tackled them head on i'd just like to know that how do you kind of gear yourself up again it's like wow we've got to go again like there's a no there's a i mean obviously the prize is quite large you go to new geography set up a new JV there's like big opportunity if you can make it work what's your like framework of like mentally what are you thinking to just go right okay we've landed on like it's almost like playing a game and you go to the next level up and you're like right I've got to start the new level to then get to the end of that to go up again what's your mindset?

15:19It really you're exactly right when I look back it is that you do have to gear yourself up but I think it is different that hunger that you have and that desire to succeed and that desire to prove that you could do something. That's what I always had in those days, I think. That desire to succeed, but the humility to always realize that I needed to learn. I needed to adjust. I needed to keep my ears open and actually work out how I could succeed in this environment. But it's also different depending on what stage of your career at and the flexibility you have in your life. At that stage of my life, you know, and, you know, balance is a big thing for me, especially as I get older.

16:15I don't think I had that much balance in my life there because I was able not to. so I was able to commit to work and not I'm saying I work 24 hours a day but I was able to bring that intensity that I wanted to to enable things to succeed to each of those projects but yeah the carrot is quite big to get the promotions and get the experience and get the the bonuses or whatever, but I also enjoyed the challenge. In a way, you enjoy, you don't enjoy every day because things are difficult. You work, you're, especially in China, in a foreign country, you're learning the business culture, you're learning the local culture, you're learning the new clients, you're learning the new team, but you have to take small wins as well.

17:03So keep an eye on the bigger picture, but you have to make small wins matter every day. Right. Right. Well, let's move on and talk a little bit more now about, I guess, your observations that could be incredibly useful from your experience to those in their early careers. And something that I get asked a lot by our community is things like, well, when I get into a bank and I've given my shot on an internship, how do I impress? How do I convert? And what is it that these people of experience or seniority are looking for. So having sat at the end of the graduate recruitment process, what were you really looking for in a candidate?

17:49You almost were going to touch on it earlier, but maybe we could come back to that now. So what are the key, if you were distilling it down to attributes, what would you look for, would you say? So I, you know, the MD probably sits at the end of the graduate interview process. it's more like when you get to the point where you're choosing between a handful of candidates so that my job really was to work out fit fit in the team they've been analyzed they've been assessed on a technical and intellectual and resilience basis through a lot of the process I would focus on fit and I would focus on hunger.

18:42So I would try not, this is quite an important, I think, skill at the end of an interview process. I would try not to judge them too quickly on background, how they present themselves. These are all important things, but I would try to get to know who they really are underneath. Because you're going to be sitting next to these people 12 hours a day. So depending on your background, depending on your schooling, depending on your university course, your friendship group, etc., you're going to have a level of presentability or confidence that it might be a well-rehearsed routine that you're able to interview well.

19:33I try to work out who the person underneath that is and how would they fit within the personalities in my team. And do I want to sit next to them every day, honestly? And the other thing is, are they teachable?

19:53I would say that I try not to judge too quickly, but where my alarm bells ring is overconfidence because overconfidence in a sales and trading environment is very dangerous. you may have gone to the top university you may have got top exam results you may have been in all the best sporting teams but you haven't sat on a trading floor where billions of dollars of deals are being done and there's regulatory risk and there's client risk and there's real p &l risk so you have to have the ability and the humility is a big word for me to keep your ears open and learn quickly learn to apply the theory that you've learned at university and throughout the graduate application process and learn how to fit that into the business so i'm trying to analyze that in a nutshell how does someone express hunger is it the way that they're talking like how clear is it to to see that and and how does it come across it's an it's that i that i think comes with experience as well to be able to see that and it's seeing through the words this is what i'm trying to say i think it's seeing through the words and where these words are coming from because people can rehearse a line it's also the questions that they ask you and it's not just oh i really want to succeed i really want to be associate VP, ED, MD, that's not hunger.

21:33It's how do I make an impact into this business and how do I practically apply instead of it being how can I best get myself up the ladder is how can I best do a good job and earn my stripes and come into work with a level of consistency. And I think that often comes from, it's a lack of entitlement as well. It's a lack of, I'm willing to, you know, listen and perhaps do things a bit differently than I expected to do in order to make this work for me and for the business. That's the key. Hunger to succeed is hunger for you to succeed, but it's also for you to have a very positive impact in the business.

22:25And to do that, you have to listen. You mentioned a word there, consistency, because the next kind of area of questions I was going to go to was that getting the job versus succeeding in the job. because I think what can often happen is there's so much of a focus for students to think about the application process and then it's kind of not a lot of thought is given to what if I get the job and then actually you land and whether it's on a nine-week internship or you're on a grad program you know how do you actually make an impact so yeah what is that that separates the grads who thrive and those who struggle is it is consistency the main thing or are there other things as well consistency is hugely important you cannot have a long-term career at any top organization without being consistent you have bad days but your bad days are not that bad and you have to find that level of performance so clients know what they're getting when they call you or when they Bloomberg chat you or when you meet them in person.

23:40But in a way, more importantly, your colleagues know. Your people next to you, your juniors, your peers, your managers, know exactly what they're going to get from you every day. And like I say, some days are good, some days are bad, but there's a clarity and there's an honesty about what you're bringing to work every day. And that comes from having an openness in your communications with everybody. And another red flag about, I told you we talk about consistency, Another red flag for me is somebody that comes in and tries to, I guess, behave in a different way with certain people that they think it's going to make them gain more quickly.

24:34A consistent employee treats everybody in the organization the same. and has that same level of performance and same level of hunger, whether they're speaking to the brand new graduate or the head of markets. They're an open book when it comes to what they're about, what their values are, and what they bring to the table. Yeah, it makes sense with the consistency. I'm assuming that leads to then trust. And then when you can trust someone, then they can have more responsibilities, they become accountable. So yeah, the kind of catalyst is that every day. I think there's always those sports analogies of, you know, how good are you on an off day?

25:22How can you play? And that's what will define then, you know, the level of success. I think it's the same, you know, whether it's football, rugby, whatever. Like these top people, they do bring a level of consistency to their performance. that we can all learn from. But it is also an honesty. It's bringing that honesty and clarity of thought to work. And when you're having a bad day or when there's something else going on in your life, you bring that to the table as well. You say, look, I may have to take some time out for the following reasons. So that comes with trust as well. But I think consistency we talked about and the trust thing that we're talking about as well.

26:16You can't think that. That's something that however polished and however much you've learned about the theory of finance and markets and what you're going to be trying to do. trust only comes from consistency over time both for clients for the trade if you're in sales with the traders you're dealing with and and again i go back to it with your with your direct colleagues and the way that you treat and are treated by them that that that says a lot yeah it reminds me of the conversation we've had before and about honesty as well being within this mixed which is like you were kind of alluding to which is you know some days something might not go right i guess as a young person in your career it's often you have this naivety where you're like i don't want to show any weakness yeah but in actuality the strength comes where the type of work that we're doing has such it requires such accuracy that you know mistakes can cost money essentially so that honesty coming through and when someone's not feeling their a-game to be able to be able to vocalize that and then obviously the team can come around and support that and then obviously it's not happening every single day but there's a mechanism where people can feel comfortable i guess that's when you've got a highly performing team culture right where you can have that type of relationship between team and employee and boss and so forth yeah Yeah, and that's exactly right.

27:56You have to be backed by your team. And this is not in every single sales and trading role, don't get me wrong, because some hedge funds or banks are set up, so it's just individual P &L. You sit there, you trade, and you do your own thing. In the environment I was in, big, large-scale international businesses, team's a huge, huge factor. So another thing that I will often ask graduates in an interview is, what will you do if the market's going crazy? And I've, you know, in 25 years, you sit through a few market crises, and then you see how people react when things get really hairy. And the good ones will always flag when they've got a problem.

28:41So I'll ask in an interview, you know, what would you happen, What would you do if the nickel crisis in the early 2020s, if you had an out trade when the market's 20%, gapping 20 % at a time and closing? Well, their first answer has to be, I raise my hand. If the answer is, I tried to trade out of it, or I look around and I just wonder, I take five minutes to figure out what I'm going to do here. That's a problem. You just flag it. You bring somebody else in your team or your manager into the conversation and you fix the problem together. That's what you need to do. Like you said, there is no issue with showing weakness.

29:43You have to show and fess up to your mistake in these situations because these markets are moving very quickly. Final on this area was thinking about the first, say, three to five years of someone's career. In your mind, what do you think the most optimal mix is to learn? Is it acquisition of technical skills? Is it learning how to adapt and work into the corporate culture? because I know there is a tricky transition coming out of uni life into corporate life. What's the balance there that you think carries more weight in those early years? So for me, it's integrating yourself into the business.

30:28So bringing that academic schooling into the workplace. It's about listening. It's about applying your skills, what you're good at and improving what you're not so good at to make and improve an already extremely well-functioning business even more successful so you're learning you're working hard you're learning but you're integrating yourself into the corporate culture i see a couple of mistakes that i can see i see often in graduates it's full mode that desk that i didn't come into or my colleague xyz is making more money that business is more successful i want to do that you're not in an informed position after two years to work out that you want to do that and you're also you also don't have the skills yet the basic transactional relationship building um you know interpersonal in the corporate environment and other skills that come with are slightly different for every job you don't have them yet to make these decisions and I see quite a lot of graduates jumping too soon to something shinier the other thing that I see quite often is I guess an obsession about how the graduate peers are performing and who gets the performance promotion, who gets the biggest bonus in the early years.

32:12A lot of this is decided by where you fit in the company and is also in quite a tight matrix of performance-led compensation and promotion. So you have to look at the long game here. don't treat your first few years in a bank or another large financial organization as an extension of university where you're comparing yourself with your immediate peers all the time compare yourself and learn from the the the person that has sat there for 10 years five years how are they doing their job how are they progressing what do you learn from them don't obsess with the fearing of missing out from your other close friends from university and how they're doing on the graduate scheme.

33:05The graduate network is massively powerful and will hold you in good stead throughout your whole career. You will always have these contacts, but coming into a graduate scheme at a financial organization, it can also narrow your focus to just comparing yourself with those immediate peers. And I would advise you strongly not to do that. Open your mind and learn from the other people around you yeah i guess now i'm well into my 40s it's kind of that key to unlocking happiness just generally in your broader life is i remember when my brother older brother was prop trading in the late 90s early noughties and it's so easy to look around and some of those young guys back then were making you know insane money but then deeply unsatisfied because the guy five desks down was making more and you're like what a crazy bubble this training floor's become um but yeah exactly that's totally true that's the great thing about the city of london and finance in general there is always somebody making more money than you yeah there always is there's always somebody being more successful there's always somebody doing something different that looks more interesting.

34:17Align your career with who you are, with the values that you have, and match up that with your ambitions. If your ambitions are purely to make money, there are jobs for that. If your ambitions are to be part of a team and manage a team and be a especially in a certain product, there are jobs for that as well. So work out and align your career path with who you are, what you're good at, and what you want to be. You can also make some mistakes. You can make some mistakes. You can go down a path for a few years that you don't necessarily fit into well. That happens, and that happens in everybody's career, but still bring that consistency and that openness and that humility to that role so you don't burn bridges with the people in that role and you learn as much as you possibly can to take to your next one.

35:22And they will encourage you and recommend you, yes, okay, the fit wasn't perfect here, but Anthony and Jamie turned up every day and was very, very professional and brought that consistency and were happy to recommend them for the next job. So remember that as well. You can make mistakes. But talking about happiness and balance and all the rest of it, that's also very important. But you've got to remember what stage of your career you're at. there is there i'll go back to this there will be periods throughout your your career that you feel very uncomfortable you don't have any balance and they potentially happen a little bit more from a roll your sleeves up and just graft perspective at the start of your career because you have to gain those skills in order to be able to to progress but as you get older and your priorities change with family etc you you may you may want to make a decision to do something slightly different as i have to be honest with you and that and that's fine too you you you have to take time to take a step back and appreciate who you are what your values are and what your priorities are and how to match them with your ambition because otherwise you're you're not going to be a particularly happy person and i i you know i've i've had experiences like that myself as well i've had experiences where stress and lifestyle and ambition and a lot of different things working in a stressful environment made my life or my viewpoint extremely narrow and you you don't have that perspective you don't have that like we just discussed there's always going to be somebody out there earning more money than you.

37:11This is a bit of a bubble. If you take a step back, not everybody gets paid what the Bloomberg headline says, XYZ, a hedge fund gets paid. Just remember that. Look at the statistics.

37:27I've had a period when I didn't have that perspective, when my life got a little bit too narrow and I had to take a step back. i think it take a step back when it affected my health and affected my wider life but at the same time you've still got to put you know your pound of flesh in but you've got to maintain that perspective in order to kind of counteract the the narrowing that can happen i've had previous guests talk about this kind of analogy of having almost like a board of advisors for your personal personal life your personal meeting professional being that you know I guess for most people it's a partner or it's a parent or it's a brother or a sister and then it could also as you go through your career become the mentor that you had in your career or other professional people come into it is that is that a way that I don't know how you've dealt with it but in order to then give yourself some sanity check that you're able to talk to people who you know that they have your best intention at heart.

38:36Is that something you've developed or is that or not? Well, yes, but I wasn't good at it at the start of my career. And I think that's why I got to the point eventually after many years when my life did become too narrow because I didn't take enough time, take a step back and ask others' opinion, evaluate what was important to me and make decisions around that. But I think having a network of friends, having a life outside of work, again, you've got a choice. Do you want to be one of these people that becomes the work? Because they exist. A lot of them are sitting in important jobs and offices around the city right now.

39:22That's their choice. Their work has become their life. And they are comfortable with that narrow focus. You know, they work long hours. They don't see their family very often. They don't attend their kids sports events or school events. If that's what you want to do, that's fine. Or if you want to do that for a period, that's also fine. But this goes back to my earlier point. The side Or understand who you are and what your motivations are and match that with your ambitions. And if it means turning down a promotion or turning down a new job for more money, that's fine. That's absolutely fine. But continue.

40:06And I fell into a trap a little bit, I think, in my late 20s and 30s that I was probably too much into the city lifestyle. I've always been into sport. I played rugby and I did a lot of running in my youth. I didn't do much of that. I kept myself reasonably fit, but I probably socialized a lot with work colleagues and clients. And I think I probably lost a bit of perspective. And in later life in my 40s, I've got back into running. I've got, you know, I've got a great relationship with my kids. But it takes some effort to do that, to have boundaries. It really does. And you only learn from experience when you get it wrong.

40:53And we all make mistakes. And you also, I think, from experience, you just get a bit better at learning when you've stepped over those boundaries and pushing back to the other side a little bit. So you've got to try, you've got to push yourself and work out where your limits are. Yeah, I think one of the things just listening to you describe that is that people might listen to this and go, yeah, that all makes sense. But it's like one of those things where I don't think because it's so unique and different for everyone. I don't think you can ever really quite work out what that tipping point is until you've probably gone over it.

41:35I know I've you've described it. I think I could probably describe my own experience of going over it. it's going to happen probably but then that gives you where your balance is then and that's formative for you to sort of work a lot of this stuff out so it's not a perfect formula I guess for any young person listening to your earlier point speaking to somebody speaking to friends valued mentors having having friends outside you know your your your corporate life and you know mentors within it and being able to get perspective from both sides somebody that knows how organizations and careers work and somebody that knows you and matching those again matching those two up is is um is very important but you yeah i think unfortunately you're right some quite often you only learn when to pull back when it's too late i almost feel like it's probably uh the Achilles heel of being naturally a competitive person because your default is that I can do it I'm gonna do it and then you kind of push yourself probably beyond the precipice where then a mistake happened I know certainly when I ran first time I started running the desk accumulating more and more responsibility very quickly to the point where it was very I found it very difficult to delegate because the risk was so high of making a mistake and not hitting the mark that I, you know, I was self-professed, like a poor delegator in my early career.

43:12And then that became too much, to be honest. So, yeah, absolutely. I've been in exactly that same spot when you fall into the trap of thinking it's just easier if you do it yourself. And also there's a safety net in that because you think you're making yourself so invaluable to the company that, you know, You're irreplaceable. But what you're doing is just burning yourself out. So delegate. And that comes from what we talked about previously. If you have a teamwork, a team structure that has got people that perform consistently and there's a trust, you're able to delegate much easier. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome.

43:57You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. well I had a long list of questions and actually I feel like quite freeform we've probably much gone through everything that I that I had in mind so maybe to go towards the close then what's so at the moment we're in application season at the point of where this episode is going to go out so there's a lot of people who yeah nervous anxious all these different types or feelings are going around.

44:48But what's one piece of advice you'd want them to sort of take away through not just that process, but for their early career, would you say? Be patient. Be patient. I know it's difficult at the moment, and I know you're applied for lots of different jobs and it's a hugely competitive environment. If you keep your level, your consistency, and you know who you are, what your ambitions are, what you bring to the table, you will succeed. align your ambitions to your values and you will succeed just have that have trust in that process brilliant well thank you so much jamie is you know super honest and you know what's really i think interesting here is that the perception i always feel when i talk to many students the default is right what do i technically need to learn you know in order to break into this industry but actually things that you've talked about in this conversation things like consistency trust patience all these different things i feel like these are all things within our control that everyone has an equal access to and you can acquire the technical stuff but can you do that you know these basic principles first and do them well so hopefully people hearing that think yeah that's something that I can shoot for and was in my realm of being able to execute.

46:20So yeah, really informative. Thank you so much, Jamie. I'm sure you're going to get some LinkedIn connection requests after this goes out. So I hope that doesn't become too much of a process for you to work through. It's been a pleasure chatting to you, Anthony. And yeah, just a final thought. You have to sell yourself to get into these opportunities. But you have to bring a level of humility and be teachable to succeed in the job that you have. So I'm more than happy to speak to anyone. And I've enjoyed speaking to you, Anthony. So thank you. All right. Thanks, Jamie. Take care. Mr. Monopoly here.

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