BNY's Jose Minaya on How AI Is Transforming Asset Management

25:23T plus zero, as some people call it, means you sell it and you instantly get the cash. Is that what tokenization does for people? That's a big component. So that's creating that liquidity where if you had to wait 24 hours, now you can wait a lot less than 24 hours. The other thing that it helps do is also kind of you're able to earn a yield. Because you're getting the cash. Now, for most people, one day doesn't matter. but scale that up to an institution, scale that up to a bank or an insurer, that day times thousands and thousands of accounts and transactions really adds up, doesn't it? I mean, scale that to, again, BNY is kind of touching and helping move$55 trillion.

26:06So T plus zero or T plus five minutes, that's much better than T plus one. And it's a big difference. And your ability, again, to potentially earn a yield in that process also, right? In that whole T plus one in that 24 hours, in many cases, you're not able to earn a yield while that money is clearing. So back in the bad old days when it was T plus three, we were always told, hey, it takes three days to just make sure there's no fraud. The right stock is going to the right buyer. The money goes to the right account. And when they got shrunk down to one day, well, technology has allowed us to do this, but we still need a day just to verify everything.

26:48What is it that allows us to go to T plus zero? Is it just technology? Tell us how that works. Yeah, I think obviously the blockchain technology is one component. The other component is the fact that one of the reasons BNY can lead in this area is that it custodies around 80 plus percent of the digital assets. Digital assets, meaning Ethereum, Bitcoin, any other sort of things like that. And it is the largest custodian in the world in general. So clearing something becomes a lot easier when it's all sitting inside. I mean, think about a warehouse. If I don't have to move it from one warehouse to the other, that makes life a lot easier.

27:32You're not even moving it from one road to another. You're just changing the label. Here's who owns it. Yeah. Now, and again, I will tell you, for me, I was having a conversation with our CEO about this the other day where I'm like, one of the other things I love about my career right now, look, it's been a long time since I've walked into rooms and I'm learning something. Because typically, I was a subject matter expert and typically most rooms that I walked into, I felt like I was the expert in that category. I'm not an expert on tokenization. I'm not an expert on custody. I work at a firm that that has experts.

28:09And you're quickly learning. And what's important there, I go back to, hey, but what I do understand, even though I know what I don't know, is this matters to my clients. So all of a sudden, if I am trying to think about, hey, how am I pitching my services to clients in Asia and around the globe? And I have a differentiating factor, meaning I can help you go to T plus zero. That is a differentiator from a relationship perspective. And this is what I mean by where today it's, there's so much more consolidation in the asset management industry because scale is important. And why is scale important?

28:49Because you then need to be able to service and invest in these technologies to service your client. AI is a big topic today. And I would argue and say, well, it's no longer debatable that AI is here and it's going to be disruptive. It's going to make a difference. So, if you believe that, you also have to believe that the firms who can invest in it are going to be the winners for tomorrow. Now, being able to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in AI, that takes significant scale. That takes kind of diversified businesses, being able to hire engineers, right? So, So when I was sitting usually in the role of running an asset management shop, it's very hard for me to even say, how am I even going to attract engineers from Silicon Valley?

29:33How am I going to be able to pay them? Well, BNY is a massive tech stack, right? Like they can attract a lot of engineers. They can attract a lot of investment in AI. I just happen to be in that realm, part of that universe, and I'm going to be able to benefit from that technology. So let me step back a second because we're all guilty of using acronyms and even something like BNY, you and I understand it, but perhaps the listener needs to learn a little more. BNY is Bank of New York. It's been around for how long? 240 plus years. I think we're at 241. So more than almost two and a half centuries, more than two centuries.

30:14I got to add to this, because I'm always fast. I will tell you, even as I joined BNY, there were things I did not know. You know, obviously, it's the first bank in the United States. It was the first bank to issue the first loan or warrant. Begun by? Alexander Hamilton. It's the first company traded on the New York Stock Exchange. Amazing. It was the first public company. Right. You know, our first clients of the bank were George Washington and Eliza Hamilton. And, you know, so it's just got incredible, incredible history. Unbelievable history. In addition to all that history, BNY is also affiliated through ownership with a lot of really well-known names within finance.

30:57Tell us about some of the other divisions that maybe people will be more familiar with those names. Yeah, and I tell you, I think this has a lot to do with kind of the recent performance you're seeing about the firm because it's unlocking what we would describe as, you know, BNY is a platform operating, has a platform operating model, meaning it has multiple platforms. You know, of course, it has an asset manager and it has a wealth business. As we said, it's got a$2 trillion asset manager. It's got about a$350 billion private bank wealth platform. By the way, it also owns Pershing. Giant clearing shop.

31:32And that captures around almost$3 trillion in advisors capital that it's servicing through a technology and a service platform. It has an asset servicing arm. And that asset servicing is serving both asset managers and asset owners doing things like custody, fund accounting. It has a treasury component as well. The other interesting thing about BNY is it clears all the treasuries of the United States. So it's a GSIB. It's a significant bank and plays an important part in our financial system. Really, really interesting. So tell me the story of how you move from Nuveen to your role as global head of BNY Investments.

32:22You're doubling the size of the assets you're responsible. Have you approached this change? What sort of challenges did you face? You know, I think every challenge that's kind of a that's really attracted me, including what, you know, what kept me in my previous role and in the different roles I was in, it was the opportunity for growth. And I think looking at at BNY and seeing where I believe the industry is going, just saw a tremendous opportunity of what is a two trillion dollar shop, you know, should should easily be a four trillion dollar shop. And you think about the ecosystem that we play in within BNY.

32:59As I mentioned, we manage money for other people as an asset manager. We manage money also as a wealth platform for families and individuals. Yet, we also service other wealth advisors through purging. But they're also the clients of the firm. I'm an asset manager. A lot of my competitors are clients of BNY as well. And then you think about the technology that it takes to do all that and grow that technology stack. I feel like a kid on a candy store for two reasons. One, that's a tremendous amount of infrastructure and capabilities that are there that I should have a home field advantage to. The other thing is that has become a lot easier in my job is when you touch a fifth of the world's assets, most people are your clients.

33:55So having a conversation with potential clients is very easy to do. A lot of what you've seen, the recent success of B &Y, and I think you said this earlier, is a collection of a lot of different things that were either acquired or built. But it was also a very siloed organization for a while. The ability of having that cross-connection. If I look at a world that AI is going to be important, being able to touch your clients in multiple ways and have broader technology, I am sitting in a spot where in all those platform operating models, I'm two of those. But I'm fitting in pretty well. I'm trying to take the advantage of the other five or six that are around me.

34:36A great example of that is Archer. Archer is – That's a digital platform? It's a technology platform for SMAs, right? So, i.e. your ability to, clients want to be able to, we talked about solutions. Your ability to go to an Archer, and by the way, my previous job, Archer, I was a client of Archer. And SMAs stand for separately managed accounts? Separately managed accounts. So, again, now you go back to technology, meaning you may be able to manage bonds and equities and alternatives or even tax-managed solutions. And believe it or not, bringing that together in a package for individuals takes technology.

35:14Of course. Asset managers, traditionally, they're stock pickers or investors. They're not technology people. So you go to that platform and do that. Now, when I joined BNY, I'm like, okay, this is great. They've acquired Archer. I know that they have a great capability for doing this. And this is a growing market. And already, our wealth platform is a client of Archer before it was even acquired. The asset management arm of BNY was already a client, was acquired. Now, Archer is also free to grow because it services a broader capability. It services BNY and BNY clients. Yeah, and that's important because, again, if you think about this, the model of tomorrow and what scale matters is, one, it's its own business and just kind of providing what Archer does to the broader community.

36:02community. We get an inside view and a home field advantage and getting it ourselves. Typically, if I build my own SMA platform, I have to not worry about how do I feed it to grow it. Other people are feeding it to grow it, and I get the benefit of kind of being attached to it. And I think that connectivity around, hey, everything I do on the asset management side, all those clients at Pershing, they buy that as well. Should we not be engaging with our clients to do more for them. It's like, sure, we're doing clearing for you in custody and offering you technology. We also have asset management.

36:36All of them, obviously, buy asset management as well. So, having those connective dots, I think is a tremendous competitive advantage. So, I want to talk a little bit about your role. I want to define it better. At Nuveen, you were CIO, and then you were CEO, two distinct positions. Your title is global head of BNY investments and wealth, sounds like a little bit of each. You're building, but you're also helping to direct the investing. Tell us a little bit about your roles and responsibilities in this new position at BNY. Yeah, I think I look at one end of the spectrum is very similar to my previous role, which is BNY investments is an asset manager.

37:20You know, obviously it's a much bigger one than the firm I came from, but it's an asset manager. And there, you know, I'm the chief executive for that particular platform. We also have a wealth platform. And very different from asset management, it's more dealing with individuals and advice. But there's also synergies in the business, right? Meaning if you're a wealth advisor, you're talking about how do you create investment products? How do you source them? Well, we have investment products. And how do we make sure those two groups are talking to each other? What's the products that we're creating?

37:53If you're an asset manager, a big part of who our clients are, are wealth advisors. So having a good understanding of kind of what wealth advisors need, it really helps to have a wealth advisor in-house. So I'm managing a larger platform, but at the end of the day, my job is still very similar. It's about picking the right teams and people. We talk about$2 trillion and I would tell you$2 trillion should go to$4 trillion. We don't own any of that money. At the end of the day, our biggest value set of what we do and have is our people. And obviously the technology that we can offer those folks. But people is kind of really our business.

38:30And I've kind of seen my job today really as the chief people officer for how we kind of build teams around this. Coming up, we continue our conversation with Jose Minaya, global head of BNY's Investment and Wealth, discussing his experiences at Nuveen TIAA. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

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40:07I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest this week is Jose Minaya. He is the global head of BNY Investments and Wealth, helping to manage over$2.2 trillion in client assets. So let's talk about who the clients are at BNY. You mentioned RIAs and advisors, my day job, but you also work with institutions. You work with high net worth and family offices, as well as other players in the investing world who are also clients. Sounds like you guys are a little bit of everything to a lot of different people. How do you keep all that running smoothly?

40:55How do you keep all those balls in the air? Yeah, well, look, I think BNY is often described as the bank of banks, right? Because, again, it's kind of that broader provider. And in goes the opportunity set, right? Like, again, you look at the firm. I don't know. Last I looked, the stock was about$106. You know, that's in less than a three-year span or thereabouts from$40. it makes it one of the best performing kind of financial stocks. And financials have been kind of lagging the tech sector for a couple of years. They're starting to play a little bit of catch up. They're playing a little catch up.

41:27They're doing better, but I think few are doing better, if any, are doing better than BNY. Some of it goes back to that question you just asked me. Yeah, there's a lot of these, the way typically these conglomerates or these platforms are typically managed, we're very siloed. You know, the ability to bring in the technology and the leadership to say, how do we have better connectivity across all our platforms is where the value proposition is. And the market is seeing that and the market is rewarding that. So it's funny. Earlier we talked about how commoditized so much of the world has become.

42:05Tom, you're basically saying we need to be an integrated solutions provider and not just have these commoditized silos, which is what exists outside of a mega bank of banks like BNY. Yeah, so much that we used to talk about the concept of selling watches. I think that the world doesn't really – it's hard to sell watches now. People are looking for – our clients are getting more efficient. They need to scale their operations as well. And it's the idea of like, do I want to work with 150 managers or am I better off working with 20, 30 or 40? And if I'm going to go from 150 different types of managers to 20 or 30, how do I pick those 20 or 30?

42:51What's going to differentiate that? So I think a lot of that is what's driving the need for scale. It's what's driving the need for consolidation. and it's also driving a lot of innovation. So you've mentioned technology a couple of times. We've talked about tokenization and a little bit about AI. What are the big technological trends that we can look for over the next couple of years? Where are you thinking about how technology is going to have the biggest impact on asset managers and on investors? Yeah, it's interesting. And honestly, my narrative has changed. I used to say, look, AI is going to be very disruptive, but I have no idea if it's five years from now or 20 years from now.

43:37And by the way, that makes it very difficult to invest in it, right? Because when are you going to get the returns for it? You know, clearly now that's come into a lot more clarity because where, you know, AI has begun to already yield returns for firms and BNY is no different is on the productivity side. I think B &Y is one of the first firms to have digital employees, so digital employees that can work on real problems. And that's driving productivity increases. And that's kind of been a large part of the narrative with AI. Now the new narrative is it can also provide value add. So, again, as an investor, do you have the capability of instead of the old way of we're going to look at satellite pictures and see how many cars are on the driver?

44:26Well, now AI can actually track devices and kind of see where things are coming. AI is able to go through a lot more information and disseminate that information. So, I still say that human beings with AI will be better than human beings without AI. i.e. you're still going to need the component for human beings in the mix. But so much of the future is unknown. And by the way, I think that's also the uneasy part that we are today in our markets. Because if you speak to individuals on one end, I can kind of picture and say, the economy is doing great. Earnings are strong. Consumer household balance sheets are strong.

45:11Wages are still relatively strong as well. And there's a strong, very constructive view to putting your money in the markets today, even at these valuations. The other side of that story is, okay, but then are we losing the independence of the Fed? Are there geopolitical issues and wars out there that can also cause massive disruptions in the global economy? Policy issues and fiscal issues coming to the forefront that could just be mistakes that happen. So at the same time, there's so many things that can go wrong. I would say we're probably at an all-time high of things that can go wrong, yet where you're sitting today should feel pretty good in terms of the economics and the economy.

46:05And I think technology is the same thing. It's like, wow, AI is going to be disruptive. what we think I can do is literally changing every week, every month. And again, that in many ways is exciting. In many ways, it's also extremely unsettling. To say the very least, since you brought up the current state of the world, profits are all-time highs, but it seems like risks are at all-time highs. I want to throw two of your own quotes back at you and get your thoughts on it. In the beginning of this year, you said risk assets are going higher. What led you to that conclusion and has the year played out as you expected?

46:47Clearly, look, I think I was challenged a little bit on that comment. And remember, I said it right after Liberation Day. So the markets were obviously falling off. There was a tremendous amount of concern with the tariffs and what would come. I had two thoughts there. One, understanding that I thought the current administration that we have was about the carrot and the stick. And we started out the year with the stick, but you know what? The carrot was going to show up at some point. And then two, this other view of, you know, most of us don't have a choice to be risk off. The idea that like, you know, being risk off through these different cycles hasn't really paid off.

47:27So the one thing we should do is like go back and look at the fundamentals. But yes, if you're saying I'm going to just take a correlation of one or just take broad market exposure, it's more than, again, the academic conversation being more of an urgency. If you think about the actual conversation around I'm structured for solutions, for outcomes in my portfolio, then why should you be risk off? You already planned for this. Right? I maybe plan to have part of my principle protected. I maybe plan to have certain amounts of yield or uncorrelated assets in my portfolio. So my viewpoint is, again, one, the fundamentals are there to not say exit the market.

48:06But two, this should not always be around, should I buy this stock or that stock? Or should I go bonds or equities? It has to be broader. It has to be broader because we're not a hedge fund. And a lot of what we do is not about that. It is about driving long-term outcomes. So another quote of yours that caught my attention was, noise is at all-time highs. I totally agree, but explain your point of view. Yeah, and I'll explain it both in terms of kind of where we are in our markets and then it's also like a personal philosophy. One, this is what I mean by things look very calm. Things look very constructive.

48:49Yet we can, I think my team at the time, and this was back in January, I think there were like 26 or 30 different press releases or things that happened that kind of really jolted the markets in some way or caused concern. So the list of the things going on, whether it's inflation, whether it's political, the Fed, policy changes, wars, the list - It's endless. It's endless. So that, I think, is at an all-time high of the things that, okay, what's the list of what can go wrong? But then the other thing with noise, and I say this to my kids, I'm still trying to master this, is that in most cases, 80 % of what you hear is just noise.

49:33Right. And already in stock prices. Yeah, it's there. It's like 20 % actually matters. I said to be a good investor, you have to be good at knowing what you don't know. But I also think you also have to be good at taking emotion off the table. You could see a lot. Obviously, we're a pretty divided country politically. I would say, like, don't bring that to your investing, right? So it's more like take the emotion out. Don't let the noise suck you in. Go back, and it's about the fundamentals. It's about what's in front of you. It's about your outcomes. I love the concept of knowing what you don't know.

50:08Let's address that. What are investors not talking about, not thinking about, but should? What topics, assets, geography, policy, data points, whatever, what is not at the forefront of many investors' minds, but maybe is getting overlooked? You know, and again, this is going to sound very simple, and it's been talked about since the beginning of our markets. You know, it's true diversification. And again, it sounds simple, but it's not. Because the old diversification is that 70, 30, 60, 40 stocks, bonds. The markets are a lot more complex and sophisticated. That idea of having that conversation now around, let's talk about what I'm trying to accomplish.

50:57Not, hey, I think large caps are hot now, so I'm going to put you in them. Hey, you see technology stocks? I think technology is going to do really good. That, to me, what's really being overlooked is, again, where I know a lot of people sit down with their advisors and they're getting that academic dissertation on you should be diversified. This is why. This is how. But often the conversation falls right back to is it large caps, small caps? Is it tech stocks? Is it banks? Is it financials? That's not the right conversation. Even is it alts or publics? It's everything. It's all of that. And it's using technology and solutions and packages to create the right construct for individuals.

51:41Makes a lot of sense to me. I only have you for a couple more minutes, so let's jump to our speed round, our favorite questions. We ask all our guests, starting with, who were your mentors? Who helped shape your career? You know, I've had so many. And I'll tell you, you know, they started with family members. I've had professors. I've had the dean of the business school at Manhattan College I felt like was a mentor to me. I have my previous bosses that I still stay in touch with and try to have lunch and dinner with. So I have many people that I can kind of thank. Huh. That's very nice. Let's talk about books.

52:22What are some of your favorites? What are you reading right now? You know, I'm not a fiction guy, so most of what I read is nonfiction. I'm the same way. I love all the Michael Lewis's books. I recently read The Boys in the Boat. So I just love the story about people. And I love reading about books that you see perseverance in human beings. Right now, I'll tell you, I'm not reading anything right now. I'm getting ready to read something. And I'm wondering if it's going to stick. But I've been hearing a lot about the Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Oh, sure. And I made the comment around 80 % of the things you hear is noise.

53:01My understanding is that book has a lot about that in there of like what you should really spend your time thinking about. So I was – that's synopsis and I've heard two people now mention it. So I'm getting ready to read that. Let me bastardize that for you and say – what I took from that was recognize what's in your control and that's what you focus on. What the Fed's going to do, we can't control. Don't lose sleep over it. Yeah. Accept it. It's going to be what it's going to be. But focus on the things you can control. You can change. Really, it has absolutely stood the test of time. And if you're a Michael Lewis fan, I'm going to I'm going to self promote his most recent book that just came out, Who is Government?

53:46We did a live Masters in Business in April. And I want to say the ratio of me speaking to him was probably 3 % to 97%. For 90 minutes, he just regaled the audience with stories and had people in stitches. Absolutely hilarious stories about Billy Bean and Brad Pitt tears down people's face. I'm going to go listen to that. I'll find that for you. I'm going to listen. Yeah, absolutely. If you're a Michael Lewis fan, I think I've interviewed him 10, 12 times. That's my favorite interview. I heard stories I never heard before. He was just great. His books ruined all the movies that have come out off of his books because none of them come close, in my opinion, to the actual book.

54:31So I agree with you. The one that's closest is Moneyball. Listen, The Big Short, I love the book. The movie wasn't bad. The blind side, the movie wasn't bad. But Moneyball really captured the moment of the book. I agree. Moneyball was probably the closest you got to the book. Yeah, no doubt about that. What about streaming? What are you watching on Netflix or Amazon Prime or what podcasts are you listening to? Yeah, you know, it's very similar to kind of the whole nonfiction thing. I'm a big fan of documentaries on Netflix. There's two things that I'll kind of do on streaming. It's watching The Men Who Built America, which is a great documentary.

55:14Again, it has the J.P. Morgans of the world, the Carnegies of the world, Rockefellers and Vanderbilts. But what it shows you is the tremendous amount of risk that these individuals took. And it was a very different time in America. But I love the documentaries. And then shows, what will happen is, I don't watch a lot of TV. I will watch sports, but I'll hear things like Breaking Bad. Everyone talked about it. I was like, all of a sudden, I'm watching it 10, 15 years after the fact. And then that led me to say, hey, there's this show Better Call Saul. So I just went through the whole, not just went, but I've been going through the, I went through Breaking Bad and then Better Call Saul.

55:57And so the only way I watch shows now is, well, they came out five, seven years ago, and now I'll go in and be like, okay, I'll dig in. So I have two things for you. We saw Mad Men during the pandemic. I never saw a single episode when it was on TV. I'm like, wow, this is amazing TV. And if you're a documentary fan, the Billy Joel documentary HBO, we're like three quarters the way through it. It's just amazing. And I'm a big Billy Joel fan. And yeah, I thought it was, and again, to me, it's just history and people, right? You just kind of just love learning about people. And then especially for me, it's I'm in awe of folk of people who could do things I can't write.

56:38Like I'm in awe of a Billy Joel when you hear about his process and what he does. And you're like, it's hard not to get inspired by. Absolutely. 100 percent. Our final two questions. What sort of advice would you give to a recent college grad interested in a career in investing? You know, the advice I give everybody coming out of school. and you know i think they're waiting to hear for some kind of special nugget on how they're going to get ahead doing models or what deals and i'm like do do the easy things really well like i did this intuitively not knowing how important it was which was i came into wall street you know they're not going to give i was fresh out of school they weren't going to give me a big client they weren't going to give me a big model but you know what if someone said i need copies i ran and did copy you know i could do that that i can do uh hey book book a restaurant for a client dinner?

57:28Hey, don't worry about it. I got it. So to me, it's like life is never going to be that easy in your career than when you're first out of school. Don't come in day one thinking about how do I get on? How do I start traveling and meet clients and work the big deals? It's like, do the little things really, really well. That is how they're going to be able to judge you early on. Good advice. And our final question, what do you know about the world of investing today you wish you knew 35 or so years ago when you were first starting out? Yeah, I think it goes back to when I first started learning those lessons of don't pay attention to the noise.

58:08Pay attention to what really matters. So, you know, earlier on, it's hard not to get emotional about investing. Sometimes it's hard even not to get completely kind of, you know, and I watch for this in RPMs, like PMs can fall in love sometimes even with companies, stocks, and even management teams. That ability to now say, hey, in all these cases, be objective. Remind yourself, be good at knowing what you don't know. Take emotion off. Focus on what really should matter, not all the noise that's surrounding it. So interesting. Jose, thank you for being so generous with your time. We have been speaking with Jose Minaya.

58:46He's global head of BNY Investments and Wealth, managing$2.2 trillion. If you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure and check out any of the 550 we've done over the past 11 years. You can find those at Bloomberg, iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts from. Be sure to check out my new book, How Not to Invest, the ideas, numbers, and behaviors that destroy wealth and how to avoid them. How Not to Invest at your favorite bookseller. I would be remiss if I did not thank the crack team that helps put these conversations together each week. And I really mean this. Alexis Noriega and Anna Luke are my producers.

59:33Sean Russo is my researcher. Sage Bauman is the head of podcasts at Bloomberg. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

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