Why a Joint Account Can Be a Sign of Healthy Marriage

25:52And we asked that same question, don't have enough. It was never enough. Brought them to tears. Really? To tears. When they realized, like, hey, we just reflected on all this amazing stuff you did. You know, you're telling us you don't have enough. And then kind of that moment, that pause, where they realize, like, oh my God, what is my enough? Or they look at, I mean, it ran deep sometimes. The family they didn't start, the second child, they maybe didn't have, the time they didn't get with their spouse to enjoy something in their life? I think that maybe one of the greatest things we learned and it made its way into the book, not only through those conversations, but we had conversations with folks who were dealing with life-threatening sickness or terminal illness.

26:34And we realized that time is the greatest currency that we have. Of course. And I know we can say it, but to really believe it and feel it. And I think that we embody that now in our life. Let me float a theory at you about enough. I think if you're in middle class or upper middle class or lower middle class, the range is pretty tight. Like upper middle class is a lawyer, an accountant making a couple hundred grand. Bottom of that group is somebody in civil service making 40, 50, 60 grand. That's the range. Once you're in the top 10, 1.1%, it's from a million a year to billions. And no matter how much money you have, there's always a tier above it that seems to be, gee, you know, if I just made another million dollars a year, I could fly private.

27:26From succession. Didn't Tom say that in succession? Yeah, Tom says it to Greg, oh, five million. You know, the worst kind of rich there is. Not enough to retire. You know, too much to do nothing, you know, whatever. Too much to do nothing, not enough to retire. Yeah. You know, I love that show. But going back to what this process did for us in our relationship, you have thought, and I will chime in and say, for me personally and selfishly, the amount of work that needed to be put into myself in order to, because this book is a product of major life decisions. Heather and I made three and a half years ago to leave 13 years of being a corporate attorney, which was the very reason that stability, the benefits, the salary, that was the stability I needed to grow and be the entrepreneur.

28:26And I have, I have to interrupt you. I have the exact same experience. My wife was a teacher for 35 years. The firm launched in 2013. I didn't feel like it was a risk. But at the very least, hey, health care is covered. All these things you don't have to worry about. And I had the conversation with my wife. Are you OK? First of all, changing careers from a lawyer to finance. But then, hey, I know I'm making a decent salary, but I want to go do this on my own. I think there's an opportunity here. And she was like, go for it. Not to spoil the book, but I got very comfortable after having reached certain goals in building the firm that I probably would have kept feeling comfortable and having Heather continue being an attorney at her job forever.

29:16Burying the lead here. Yes. That in that moment in time was also the time that we had two very small children. COVID hit. COVID hit when we had an 11-month-old and a four-year-old. Wow. At home. So you're stuck at home. That's tough. Yep. I'm working a corporate job, corporate legal job in a GC's office of a Fortune 100 company from home, taking care of our two children, and also moonlighting as Doug's business associate for the firm, which I've basically helped to build from the ground up. Yeah, there's never been a day that I haven't done that. She wasn't my co-pilot helping me make critical decisions.

29:46She's working three jobs here. I was working three jobs, and I was being stretched so thin that I felt like I had completely lost myself in trying to stay above water. And there was a moment where we said, You know, we formed this whole cruise ship of our life around servicing the risk that you were taking and starting this firm. But when is it about me again? So let's let's talk a little bit about the stories from your marriage. And I have to ask, it's all narrative, no spreadsheets. Why did you decide to tell this story in a narrative format? There's been there's enough books on budgeting and spreadsheets.

30:27Tons. Enough people have tried to do it. And I and also also also a perfect budget's not going to solve much for the dynamics of your relationship with someone. That's right. There's a reason that folks have not read this book before. And it's because doing this stuff is emotional work. It's personal work. It requires understanding stories and hearing things you may not want to hear that goes way, way, way deeper than the numbers. So we wanted to do something that we felt like would really uncover the things that weren't being said. Like there was so many invisible moments that I hope we made visible in this book.

31:05So you bring a lot of therapists and psychologists and couples counselors into the book. The question that was running through my head as I was going through that is, hey, at what point should any couple get professional help? Be it working with a financial planner or going to couples therapy or shrink to help them work out their emotional issues. Yeah. So, you know, probably self-serving statement here. I'm all long on people using professionals to help them find the time and the space and the agency to talk about things that need to be discussed. But, you know, there's never a bad time. I think if you can first recognize that you're going to need help finding the space, finding the time, right?

31:50Self-starting is, for me personally, one of the hardest things that I struggle with. So I'm always open to finding people who can help me do that. But I think practically speaking, if you are both wanting to improve and not being able to get past step one, like every conversation you're having, hey, let's sit down and have our money date, our conversation. And every time you've attempted to do that has resulted in a fight. Or you're avoiding it for two months afterwards because you didn't get anywhere. Or you're not developing. So what we want you to do is develop a practice around talking about money with your partner.

32:27To Heather's point, it's been eight months. You were supposed to talk three months after that first one. You're not creating practice and discipline and consistency. If this is happening over and over again and the frustration is there, time to start finding other solutions. Maybe outsourcing that to a professional is the way to go. That could be a financial professional. That could be a therapist. That could be a marriage counselor. Or a financial therapist. I mean, there are some folks that are carrying such deeply rooted shame around money into their relationship. that's not something your partner can unwind by themselves.

32:59It's not their job to fix it either. You talk about money stories that people bring into a marriage or relationship. What are some of the ones that, you know, really resonated with you? The stories that we heard? Yeah. You know, I think stories that were steeped in people's culture, the cultural messages they brought into their relationship. There was a woman from Taiwan who who received higher education here in the U.S. And she brought into her marriage these scripts about what she what she could what she felt like she deserved and what she was allowed to strive for. Is this the woman who had to go home to settle her father's estate?

33:44No, no. Different woman. And we heard a little bit about her story in the culture chapter of the book. But I just remember her talking to us about how she was always taught not to live a small life, but to live like a demure life, to not showcase her wealth, to not strive for too much wealth. Perfect example. She graduated with a grad degree from Columbia and she was waiting tables at the restaurant down the street from her dorm and she was eating the leftovers off people's plates. She felt like that was what she deserved. Like these are stories that she carried into her relationship and trying to find a way to like marry those messages with one, somebody else's, but to like build a life that reflects both of your values when you're kind of questioning what place those values even have in your life.

34:33Right. So somebody one of the financial therapists that we spoke to, my friend Asia Evans, I remember she said people who carry that into their adult relationship have to be asked, are the circumstances in which you were taught those things actually even present in your life today? And if you're answering that question, no, well, there's stuff that needs to change. So so how do you have couples that have never really had this money conversation? How do you have them take the first step? Where should they be beginning? Yeah, so we are very long on. We call them money dates. You can call them whatever you like, but you have to have a forum in which you first are sitting down to discuss things relating to your financial life.

35:13And we talk about the best practices of having to do this, right? You don't start with the numbers typically. That's a great way to get someone to flee the scene right then and there. And that's why at the end of each section in the book, we offer a list of like eight to 10 conversation starters. You don't need to do them all at once. You don't even need to do them all ever. But the point being, conversation starters on how we start to learn a little bit more about what's bothering the other person, what they're carrying into the relationship. Sure, and what you do here instead of focusing on numbers and talking about here's another one you don't want to do, talk about what went wrong this quarter or what's not working.

35:47Flip both those things around. What did work? What are the wins you should be celebrating? We want to build momentum here. Talk about the goals that you both share. I know if I say, hey, can we talk about that vacation we want to go on? That chair is pulling right up. We're sitting down and I got a nice way to then talk about the budget and get into the numbers. Right. We almost do this categorically backwards. And what we need to do is understand the rule book for creating those consistent conversations that we need to be having regularly. Little things. Time and place matter. Right. We call it family rush hour.

36:22The time the kids come home from school to just shy of going to bed. this is probably the absolute worst time to conduct anything having to do with our lives, let alone our financial lives. You love that. That was your favorite time to talk about money. I would run out of my three o 'clock appointment when we were marooned in our house. Heather, guess what? And it's just like kids throwing food all over the place. One kid, she's like, what do you got for me, Doug? This is a great time to talk about this. It was the worst. Spaghetti hanging. She would return the favor. We're exhausted. It's 1030 at night.

36:52She wants to get into all the serious stuff. We're gas. I'm like, I can't even keep my eyes open, let alone follow along. So time and place matter. What do you like to do together? Can you carve that out? Put it on the calendar, set the reminder, pre-schedule those meetings, do stuff you like to do. So I say, can't wait to go do that. And you're not canceling that. These are little things that when you build a practice around them, go a very long way. Because if you're doing this quarterly, and we suggest you do speak comprehensive or not the data, you're going to talk day to day about money, week to week about money.

37:24We're talking comprehensive view of your financial life on a quarterly basis. That's not a lot of cracks at that during the year, right? You're getting four. Great. We now can divide by four. So over multiple years, right? Two years, eight, 12 account by four here. That's not a lot, but it's going to take a very long time. These are long games. Do you go to the gym one time after not working out and find yourself in the best shape of your life? No, you will be sore. Go to the gym four times a week for six months. I can almost guarantee you will be in the best shape of your life. Do these quarterly meetings over three years.

37:57You should have this figured out and you should be getting there with your partner. I love this quote from one of the chapter titles. Being prepared is better than trying to predict what will happen. Is that preparation? Is that planning? Is this all part of the same concept of getting people to talk, having them focus on this? Absolutely. I think that one of the hardest things for people to do is accept that we don't know what's going to happen, right? And I spent years dealing in risk for work. And I think it's just really hard to accept that you could do everything right. And things still may not pan out the way that you wanted them to.

38:34But when we embrace that, we embrace that there's 10 different ways to get to the goal you want, not just the one that you guys locked in on five years ago and you hoped this was the one way we would get there. Because disappointment looks for space closest to home, right? So if you're not making it there, those expectations aren't being met. We can't take those five steps to get to that one financial goal. And then you're taking it out on one another. You're beginning to resent one another. But when you embrace this idea that life is fickle, things are unexpected, we don't know what's going to be required of us next year.

39:06We don't know whose job is going to be stable two years from now, even though it feels great today, everything's gravy today. We don't know two years from now. When you embrace that idea of flexibility, fluidity, and being nimble in your relationship, you're able to work better together as a team and pick up slack for one another when you need each other. Do you want to know, you know, when people say, oh, enjoy the journey, you know, you'll get to the end goal, but enjoy the journey. The people that are capable of actually enjoying whatever journey they're on are the ones that have put themselves in flexible enough of a situation that when life inevitably hits you across the face, and I guarantee you it will, it does it every single time, those who are more proactive in their response versus those who are reacting and running around as if this is the worst thing that ever happened, those are the people that are enjoying their journey.

39:53Hey, we knew something, you know, something wild was gonna take place. We have a plan for that. Let's go change it up. Great example from our own lives. We always knew that someday I had hoped to work at the firm and that we were gonna do our business together. But the time in which that came about was because my corporate job very pretty suddenly wanted us back in the office four days a week. It kind of came out of the blue. We weren't prepared for it from a child care standpoint. And instead of, you know, we could have solved for it. We could have solved for it. I could have gotten a babysitter.

40:24I could have gone back. We looked at each other and we said, is this the moment to accelerate this goal that we've always had? Do we take this as a sign from the universe? It was a little backwards from what we were planning. We thought we had a couple more years of runway before we would take this leap together. But we took it. And you know what? Like, it was unexpected, but it worked out for now. You know, everything's for now because we don't know what two years from now will bring. Really, really interesting. I mentioned there's a lot of narrative, a lot of storytelling in the book, but there was a data point jumped right out of the book and grabbed me.

40:5915 % or more of marriages today involve a prenuptial agreement. 20, 25 years ago, that was less than 5%. Oh, yeah. That's a shocking change. What's behind it? Why has this changed so much? I think that there's lots of ways to obtain a prenup now. I mean, there's even companies now that are offering more of a prefab. There are platforms for this. Right. There are platforms solving for this. There's always Bloomberg forms for a prenup. Yeah, but now we've made it frictionless now. You took the word out of my mouth. This has become a frictionless process for a lot of folks. A prenup app, you just work your way through it.

41:37Yes. Yes, there are several. But I think also the way that millennials feel about prenups is that they're starting. I think also, this is anecdotal. I don't have any data to back this up, but I think a lot of us are products of divorce. I think you have a generation aging into adulthood and to marriages where we've seen our parents' marriages not look out. Half of millennials have watched their parents go through divorce, and they're saying, well, I don't want to witness or be a part of what I just saw them go through. And I think so much now people understand that a prenup is not setting your marriage up to fail.

42:11It is outlining expectations for certain situations happening. It's just a contract, right? It can also outline certain expectations for during the course of your marriage. It doesn't have to just be limited to the dissolution of your marriage. And I think that our generation in particular is very keen on opportunities to have our expectations managed, even with the people that we love the most. So there's a quote in the book that I kind of never really thought about, but you made me think about it. Quote, when you marry into money, the privilege might come with strings attached. Oh, yeah. Explain that.

42:49Absolutely. So speaking of expectations here, so when you're the married in, the person who is marrying in a family of substance or wealth, right, you're probably going to get to experience a number of things that are a product of the family that you've married into. It could be vacations. It could be here's your house or a down payment on your house. And you would think, well, that's really wonderful. Go give your in-laws a hug and a kiss for that. And it is really wonderful. It is. Yes. It is. It is. I hear a butt coming. But in many cases, this sets up expectations now that this family has for this person.

43:27It could be how they raise their kids. It could be how you act and behave on vacations, how you spend. The idea that maybe your financial household isn't even your financial household. It's theirs. So where's your agency? Where's your independence? It sets up a lot of what ifs, right? What if this doesn't work out? Where does that leave me? What if I might lose my husband due to really sad state of affairs? Then what? Am I going to be supported? So setting expectations around this is critical to the married. And otherwise, they're going to, through the entirety of their marriage, find themselves asking, what if and will I be OK?

44:12It's not a great way to go into a long-term committed relationship. And I think some of this is really difficult to talk about because you're not just, yes, you can set certain expectations in terms of the mechanics of some of these things. But like some of this is you have to observe. How is your spouse with his parents? How much have they financially supported him or her over the years? How what what level of control have you observed them trying to exert over that adult child of theirs in exchange for the wealth and generosity that they're giving your family? We've seen it. We've all seen it, I think.

44:51You write in the book about, and I have it all caps, the family, sort of a succession-like wealthy family that wants to control everything, control the relationship. They're holding all the cash, and they're manipulating everybody to get what they want, not just outside in the world of whatever acquisitions are going on, but within the family dynamics itself. How do you deal with that? It's not easy. It is not easy. And we keep coming back to the obvious answer of communication transparency. It does require the person you are marrying into, the family member that you're marrying, you have to find a way to become transparent and open and honest about your relationship with them.

45:36This is not the time to just sit there quiet and let this happen to you. You have to be able to advocate for yourself in some way because it is your life and it's going to be a life that you share together with someone. These are probably uncomfortable questions and conversations. But what's more uncomfortable is when you don't address them and something happens five, ten years down the road or you have two, three kids, you cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube at this point. And it's not to say that you should not accept the generosity, right? This is a wonderful thing. And there's many benevolent parents that just want to see their child and their child's spouse and their family succeed.

46:15And they want to offer that generosity during the course of their life. It can be a beautiful thing. But having the conversations up front about what this means. Do they want to have if they want to offer to help you buy a house? Do they believe that they're entitled to help you look for that house? Are there stipulations around where that house needs to be? Does it need to be in the town in which you're the marriage, which the adult child grew up in? Are there certain expectations that they want to help pay for the grandchild's college? Are there stipulations there as well? But I think that one way to also, you know, kind of pose and gauge how how enmeshed the adult child is with his parents is saying, I would like for us to have our own financial advisor.

46:56I would like for us to grow our independent wealth as a family. How do you feel about that? Say that to your spouse. How do these big wealth gaps and it doesn't have to be succession, it could just be reasonable wealth gaps. How do they distort the power dynamics inside the relationship? Forget the relationship of the couple to the in-laws or the parents within couples. How does that dynamic play out and what's what should be done about these sort of gaps? Well, I think that privilege cuts both ways. And that's what we like to we write about privilege and the many angles of it so that you can understand.

47:37Also, like your socioeconomic conditions could have been great, but your perception of them is what matters. We can't say, oh, you grew up with more money than me. So you had it easier. You had a silver spoon in your mouth and your life was gravy and I had a terrible life. And so none of your feelings around it with your family matter. That's something we dispel as well. Right. Your story is your story. You don't know if your partner, who, yes, may have objectively grown up with greater privilege than you, you don't know if they're carrying deep-rooted expectations like the long shadow of the family name.

48:09That is a heavy load to bear for some people. So I think there are ways, like different ways this shows up in a relationship. For another example would be like how that privilege plays out in terms of your values. You know, what are you trying to accomplish together as a couple? That may not be something that if you didn't grow up with privilege, maybe your goals and expectations are, I don't want to say more limited, but maybe they're more proximate. Like I want to build a life that just involves not being strapped for cash, us being able to afford that roof over our heads. Then you have a partner who grew up with such privilege, they didn't even have to consider their salary when they chose their career because they knew that there would always be kind of this existential safety net available to them.

48:55How do you marry those two belief systems together to kind of find a life that can identify the meaning for both of you? I would also add in these situations, it's easier to assume that these conversations will go down a road of upsetting the family or something bad or negative. And I just want for a minute to throw in the possibility of it working out well, that a family would appreciate the fact that their child and the person they're marrying are forward thinking enough to make sure they're OK, that everyone is comfortable. You know, the family isn't always, oh, the evil rich family. Right.

49:35A lot of times, in fact, I would argue most of the times, this is all out of love. This is all out of love. And if you don't approach and you don't ask, you'll never know. We just assumed you were very happy with all this wonderful stuff we've been doing for you and Ryan. We didn't know it made you feel uncomfortable every time you came on the cruise ship. Why didn't you say anything? Coming up, we continue our conversation with Heather and Doug Bonaparte, authors of the book Money Together, talking about writing a book as a team. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

50:26We're inviting you to join us for Bloomberg Tech, a daily podcast focusing exclusively on technology, innovation and the future of business. Every weekday, we bring you the top headlines from the world's biggest tech companies. From finance to defence, AI to entertainment and from startups to the magnificent seven. We highlight the latest stories of the people and companies pushing the tech sector to new frontiers and the politics that shape global tech markets. We do this all every weekday, then bring you the most important conversations and analysis in our podcast. Search for Bloomberg Tech on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you listen.

51:02Join us every afternoon on your commute home and stay ahead of the tech news cycle. That's the Bloomberg Tech Podcast. I'm Caroline Hyde in New York. And I'm Ed Ludlow in San Francisco. Subscribe today, wherever you get your podcasts.

51:18I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My guests today are Heather and Doug Pornaparth. They are the authors of the book Money Together, How to Find Fairness in Your Relationship and Become an Unstoppable Financial Team. Last prenup question. I mean, it's a given that the person who's marrying into the wealthy family should have their own legal counsel. Is it fair for them to ask the wealthy family to pay the bill for the lawyer? Oh my goodness. I mean, if you're off the cuff, I think it's fair. Okay. I think it's fair. What's the worst that could happen?

52:01What's the worst that can happen in asking? I think you prove a very good point because again, when we're talking about negotiating power and power dynamics. Disparity can be giant. You know, there's there's the lawyers who handle, you know, Beyonce and Jay Z's prenup. And then there's Joe Schmo down the street and whatever. I don't think that it would be unreasonable to ask that if we're entering into this and that this is something that impacts not just me and my spouse, but also your family as well, that maybe you'd be willing to subsidize a piece of this. Heck of a way to broach the conversation by saying, hey, we've been doing all this work here.

52:34Pay the legal bill versus I want you to know we're going to do some work here. So everyone's comfortable. We're taking care of ourselves that you're comfortable. By the way, would you pay the bill? Very, very different way you're phrasing it. So let's talk a little bit about estate planning. Quote, people go on a journey when they inherit money. I never really thought of that. But explain what's the inheriting money journey? Well, first and foremost, we love stats, right? Like most inheritances are five figure numbers. Ten grand. The numbers you have, the median was like$45 ,000, but it's totally skewed by the very wealthy inheritances.

53:16Yeah, the big, big ones. And the average person's inheritance is little or nothing. Yeah, yeah. So then you have to ask yourself, so what's really being inherited here? What's really being transferred from the decedent to the children or the heirs? And typically, it's obviously memories and the experiences, both good and bad, that end up in the possession of the child of the heir. there there's a quote and i i it's slipping my mind but it's something like inheritance inheritances are the numeric symbolic delivery of all you have left from someone and you wish you had more time you wish you had more memories you wish you had more moments and one more chance for one more conversation and so for people that twelve thousand dollars as a bonus from your job is very different from$12 ,000 from your mother.

54:12So let's talk about what I think is the most interesting trend I've seen in estate planning over the past few decades, which is inter-vivos. Giving gifts, yep, during lifetime. Doing this while you're alive so you can enjoy it. Yeah, I love it, I love it. That was a big Wall Street Journal article a handful of years ago. I absolutely love it. I see it show up in practice quite a bit. Probably one of the nicer boomer mechanics and estate planning that I've seen happen over the last few years. Yes, you should. You should get to create these experiences while you're alive, you know, and everybody can enjoy that.

54:46You see your hardworking millennial children dealing with the high cost of home prices and they can't get ahead or settle down with their family and you want to step in and do some gifting so they can afford it. I think it's probably one of the most beautiful things out there. Wish that happened to us here. It didn't happen. All right, if you know, guys, if you know anyone, let us know. But you're seeing this trend emerge and I'm seeing it show up in practice. It's really a beautiful thing. And also perhaps a sad – I don't know the particulars of these situations, but good planning is good planning.

55:18As a financial advisor, where the rubber meets the road and all of the topics that we cover in comprehensive planning, estate planning is the one. It's the biggest piece of all of it at the end of the day. And what you're doing here, it's about legacy, right? So now you have children and you have their parents creating these experiences knowing they helped. Let me back up for a second just to give you an idea of how I truly feel around the other way that this typically happens. It is we're not going to talk to our children about money. It's taboo. You'll figure it out. Or the worst one, we don't want to burden them today with this.

55:56And it's so ironic. Doug gets really on about this. I really do. It's so ironic because what you're going to do is the exact opposite of what it is you just said. You don't clue them into the estate planning. Now you're dead. And not only did you leave a burden to them. The whole estate process, whether you're a beneficiary or the executor, it's a lot of work. Even the best plans are a ton of work. You see this all the time. Like, oh, man, my dad did a really good job laying this out. Five weeks of, you know, it's insane. While you're grieving. Yeah, while you're grieving, all of this is happening here.

56:32And it's just such a joke to take the line that I don't want to burden my kids and then literally burden them, you know, to no end. And you're dead. You don't even get to see, you know, thanks, mom. Thanks, dad. That was great. And it's a disaster. It's a disaster. That's how I truly feel about it. That's why these gifts during the lifetime, I think, are just absolutely wonderful. But it just goes to show that it works both ways, right? Like we just spoke about the family where wealth, two things can be true. Wealth can be used to control people and it can be used to show that you love someone and to create legacy and deepen the love that you have for your family.

57:13Two things can be true. So before I get to my favorite questions I ask all my guests, I just have to ask, what are the other red flags we haven't gotten to? What do you think is the biggest issue that we just haven't spoken about over the past hour? Holding mistakes over your partner's head. A lot of people do a lot of foolish stuff early in their adult life. In your 20s, you make some mistakes, you carry a little bit of consumer debt. In your 40s, in your 50s. But, you know, whatever, like you, you, you, you loaded in your twenties and you had 10 grand in credit card debt. Then you met there, you met your spouse, they helped you pay it off.

57:51And now all they ever talk about is how you're not good with money because, because I helped you pay off your debt. So I guess my point is not getting over things that are just missteps. They're not mistakes in your life, holding them over your spouse's head, because what that does is it erodes their confidence and it pulls them away from being a meaningful participant in their financial lives. Really, really interesting. All right, let's jump into our favorite questions. We ask all our guests starting with, and this is like our speed round. We only have about five, six minutes. I love it. Who were your mentors who helped shape your career?

58:24Give you a hot take. You know, Heather and I maybe still agree with me on this one. We really had a lack of mentors in the beginning of our career. We found ourselves really having to figure a lot out for ourselves. And this isn't a flexor. Look how, you know, look, look what a big boy I am. We're in the market for mentors. So if anybody listening would like to be our individual mentors, we would love that. For me, they became mid-career into where we are today. Friends of ours, for sure. But early on, it was lacking. I do view it as something where, you know, it built me up. It built some character here.

58:55But if I'm being honest, I really wish I had someone there to sit younger professional Doug down regularly and say, It could save some time and effort. I had one woman, one female attorney who was always one grade level above me and has been a driving force in my legal career and even brought me back to a job in a soft landing after a tough situation. So I had one mentor in my career. So you can give her a name if you want to give a shout out. Her name's Julia. Hey, Julia. Let's talk about books. What are some of your favorites? What are you reading currently? You know, it's really hard. I have to say, I love to read.

59:32But this past year, when you're writing a book and promoing a book, it kills you. Other than the research you're doing, there's no pleasure reading. Every book I read was a personal finance book. Although I love cultural commentary because, again, like journalist brain. I read What Happened to Millennials by Charlie Wells, which I really enjoyed as somebody who is a blooper guy. Oh, it's it's he basically tells the story of where we were post 9-11 through the eyes to present day through four different folks like and follow them on their journey. It was just I thought it was a brilliant commentary on on where we were and where we find ourselves.

1:00:08And it was it found a way to like frame it all very positively on on our future. And I just I loved it. But I'm actually looking forward to reading more nonfiction or more fiction this year. and should I say it? I'm about to read the heated rivalry books. Rachel reads, Rachel reads books. If you know, you know. I hear heated rivalry, I think of Doris Kearns Goodman. I don't know. If you know, you know. Last book I read, I have to go fiction. I have to go sci-fi. I have to escape the world of business and finance. I, you know, we write these books and I know all our friends who write them as well, but I like to escape.

1:00:46Like if I'm going to read, I'm going to enjoy. You're talking to a sci-fi guy, haven't you? It was long overdue. I read Snow Crash was the last one I read, which if, you know, was the first. Did you read Neuromancer? No, no, not yet. It's a little geekier. It's okay. I'm here for it. But, you know, your first, you know, wow, calling the metaverse before the metaverse. That was really cool. Finally got it. I'm trying to remember which book. The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed. Is that Snow Crash? I don't think so. Okay. No, but that was great for a video game guy who always dreamed of a world.

1:01:18that was, you know, alt reality. That was super cool. Have you read, I'm assuming you read Ready Player One, right? No, I actually haven't even watched the movie because I wanted to read Snow Crash before it. So I was flying on a plane and sat down with that book and we landed and I was done. It was that. Yeah, I'm told it's amazing. That's what's next. That's your assignment for today. Well, that'll be my next flight book. Yeah, absolutely. 30 seconds, what are you streaming or listening to these days? Landman, awesome show. Next on our queue. You have to watch it. The Pit, of course. Pit's massive.

1:01:52It's a little too grisly. Oh, fair enough, fair enough. My wife was like watching like this. Fallout. We watch a lot of sci-fi. Yeah. Fallout is our quote. Have you guys seen Three Body Problems? The book was incredible. No, I caught it. We didn't go there. We love a lot of post-apocalyptic type stuff. We watch a lot of apocalyptic stuff. Silo, Fallout, those types of shows really take us there. Try Three Body Problems. I think it's Apple TV. I don't remember. But it was really it was really worth seeing. Final two questions. What sort of advice would you give to a recent college grad interested in a career in fill in the blank?

1:02:26Journalism, legal practice, financial planning? Yeah, if we're talking personal finance and financial planning, you're playing a long game here. Give yourself like if you're going to figure out how to get this career going, figure out how to survive for like five, seven plus years. It's just going to take that kind of time to actually mature as a person in your life. So find out how to do that. Play long game. This isn't a one, two, three year learning curve. It's like a five to seven year learning curve. Keep a list of your wins. keep a running list of everything good you do and all the value that you bring to your organization, carry that with you because being your own self-advocate is more important now than ever.

1:03:07And I have heard women say that's especially important for them. Critical. Versus men blunder into things full of self, undeserved self-confidence and women often don't apply. Let me mansplain sexism to you. Women also often, I've had a lot of women tell me they haven't applied for things because they think, I don't check every box. Out of 10, I have eight. And a dude is like, I have three, but how hard can I be? I can't tell you how many men I know have fallen up in their careers. Well, women have told themselves that they aren't qualified for a position. So yes, keeping a running list and finding a way to really articulate, package that and show your value.

1:03:47And our final question, what do you know about the world of financial planning, investing couples money therapy today might have been useful you know back in uh 20 years ago when you guys were really first ramping up understanding that time and money are inextricably linked concepts and how we spend our time is a currency when we talk so much of this work that we did is about how we allow for a couple equity at home to create greater greater sorry greater equity for women out in the world in particular. And the link between time and money is critical. I love that. Fair doesn't mean equal. Okay.

1:04:27Yeah. Okay. Solid. 50-50, probably not a practical approach to everything you do in life. Find out what your split is. There are many couples out there who are happy with 80-20, 70-30. It works for them. What doesn't work is when you're not talking about it to find out what fairness is in your relationship. That has helped us out a great deal in the last few years. Guys, this has been absolutely fascinating. We have been speaking with Heather and Douglas Bonaparte, authors of the book Money Together. If you enjoy this conversation, well, check out any of the 600 we've done over the past 12 years.

1:05:01You can find those at iTunes, Spotify, Bloomberg, YouTube, wherever you get your favorite podcasts. I would be remiss if I didn't thank the crack staff that helps with these conversations together each week. Alexis Noriega is my video producer. Sean Russo is my researcher. Anna Luke is my podcast producer. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

1:05:44further than the news of the day, to spend more time with the people shaping our world. And that's what I'm doing here on this podcast, speaking to people from Nigel Farage, Russia needs to be taught a lesson, to tech journalist Kara Swisher. And the tech industry is running wild. You know, they've gotten what they wanted and they've seen a huge run up in their stock prices. This will be a place where every weekend you can count on one essential conversation. to help make sense of the world. So please join me, listen and subscribe to The Michelle Hussain Show from Bloomberg Weekend, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:06:25You certainly ask interesting questions.