Angela Duckworth on why grit isn’t enough

0:00Hey, folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale Summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Massad, and more will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great or you want to build something great, we want you there with us, too. Join us at mastersofscale.com slash apply26. That's mastersofscale.com slash apply26.

0:42Angela Duckworth:When human beings think about what determines behavior, they think intentions determine behavior. That's not wrong. But what social psychologists will point out is that we make an error when we forget about how powerful the situation is. I was astonished. I have never seen in all of my years of studying companies a culture where unvarnished negative feedback was taken with such maturity and even enthusiasm. I'm sure a lot of people hate me for saying so many, you know, negative things about working in your home office all day. And I know there are upsides, but I have to say I have so many misgivings about it.

1:29Angela Duckworth:The NFL may be, you know, the last bipartisan community builder we have, whether you're red or blue, like, you know, E-A-G-L-E-S, go Eagles. Oh, Angel, please, no. No, no, no, we can't. We can't. No, no, no. That's where we got to cut it. We can't have that. We're going to edit that out. Fly eagles fly. I'm a Philly girl.

1:50This is Masters of Scale. I'm Jeff Berman, your host. I am thrilled to be joined today by Angela Duckworth. Angela is a brilliant psychology professor and co-director of the Penn Wharton Behavior Change for Good Institute. With millions of copies sold, it's a good bet that her first book, Grit, is already on your shelf. She's now back with a fascinating follow-up. Angela, welcome back to Masters of Scale.

2:16Angela Duckworth:It is good to be back and it's good to be talking to you again, Jeff. It is great to be talking to you. It occurred to me that maybe you perceived that the market overcorrected toward grit and situated almost reads as a response to that overcorrection. Is that a fair way to talk about why situated is such an important follow-up to grit? Jeff, I think that the idea of this second book is maybe not a correction of grit, but it is a completion. I mean, I'm a psychologist who will always be obsessed with achievement. I think the completion of the story of grit says that for all the things that we need to work on so that the inside game, you know, our mental game, our mindset, our attitudes, our assumptions, our goals, the way we think about our goals, the inside game is always going to be a good idea.

3:07Angela Duckworth:going to be important. If there's a message of grit, it's that effort matters. And effort matters arguably more than natural talent. If there's a message of this second book, I mean, you call it a sequel in some ways, as we'll discuss, it may be a prequel. The outside game matters too, because all of that effort pays off more and is more rational in some ecosystems, in some environments, in some cultures, in some places, with some people, and less so in others. And I think if you're going to achieve your potential, you need to master both the inside game and the outside game. But I don't think either negate the other.

3:44There's the story in the book of Cody Coleman, which I'm going to ask you to share a little bit about Cody.

3:49Angela Duckworth:I met Cody Coleman through an email that he sent over the transom on a day in May 2013 that introduces himself as a senior at MIT studying computer science and electrical engineering. and he's apparently watched my TED Talk. He feels compelled to tell me that the journey he's taken from being born in a prison near Trenton, New Jersey, to be graduating from MIT with a nearly perfect GPA in the hardest majors that you can have at MIT, that this is a story of grit. What happened next? Well, an internship at Google, enrolling in the PhD program in computer science at Stanford, where he successfully earns his PhD, studying with some of the pioneers in artificial intelligence and becoming the third Black recipient of a PhD in computer science in Stanford's entire history.

4:46Angela Duckworth:He is a paragon of grit, but the reason he's very relevant to this conversation is that he's more than that. He has very strategically oriented himself to situations that make the most of his grit. And he will tell you that the only way you get exponential growth in your personal development is by leapfrogging from a good situation to a better one, and yet a better one, and ever improving. Now he's, you know, the CEO of a AI startup called Coactive in San Jose. Yeah, there's so much about Cody's story that stood out for me. But as our regular listeners know, I started my career as a public defender.

5:28and one of my very first clients who I'll just call Brian here, I was heading out to the juvenile jail to meet with him for the first time. I'm reading through his file and he's classified as extremely low IQ. Like I'm worried that he's not going to understand what I'm doing, why he's locked up, what we're dealing with here. And, you know, I'm sitting down with him and I remember it's like it's yesterday. It is almost 30 years ago that this first conversation with Brian happened. and I'm explaining his rights to him. And I'm just, Angel, I'm so worried. He didn't get it. And he looks at me, he goes, is this what the Boston Tea Party was about?

6:06And I go, oh, interesting, say more. And he's like, well, because like they didn't feel like they had their rights. And so they were fighting for their rights. And I was like, actually, yeah. Like, that's exactly right. It took me a beat.

6:19Angela Duckworth:I'm like, right. Right, right. But that's why I was like, wait, say more. And over my time representing him, I was like, this kid is absolutely not low IQ. This is a smart young man who, similar to Cody, was born into just absolutely awful circumstances and wasn't able to encounter the mentors or the people who could guide him out of it or change his circumstances. And he grew up eight miles from my home where I grew up. Wow. Right? I grew up in a home where, as you talk about in the book, two parents, I've got a home full of books. I've got a dinner table with adults sitting around at talking about world events and national events, and I'm treated as an equal participant in those discussions.

6:58I'm in a world-class public school district, all of it. And it was the first time in the context of my public defender work where it just landed how deeply the accident of birth was for me. And so the thing about Cody's story for me that stood out in this context is, it is one thing to be able to change the small things in our lives. It's another thing to be able to achieve at this level. And I'm just curious what you take from Cody's story that can apply for people who do find themselves in extremely difficult circumstances.

7:32Angela Duckworth:You know, I was walking down a hill recently and a more experienced hiker passed me by. And he turned around and he said, small steps, soft knees. And I thought, that's good advice. And I think it's good advice when it comes to changing your situation. I think if you imagine the biggest change you could make, you quickly convince yourself that it's not possible. Are you going to move where you live? Are you going to change where you work? Those are big decisions, and very few of us can make those decisions on a dime. And the answer might very well be, no, it's not yet possible, actually. But the small step soft knees advice is do anything.

8:15Angela Duckworth:So the soft knees part, I think, at least the way I'm taking it, I'm sure when you're downhill hiking on a sandy trail, it literally means just keep your knees soft. But I think there's this like suppleness that we need, especially now. I mean, you know better than I do, Jeff, like the world is changing under everyone's feet. And so the suppleness you need, the ability to be agile, to take small steps, but also to adjust to trajectory correct as needed. when human beings think about what determines behavior, they think intentions determine behavior, values determine behavior, character determines behavior.

8:47Angela Duckworth:That's not wrong. But what social psychologists will point out is that we make an error when we forget about how powerful the situation is. So I think wherever we are, we can ask ourselves, not only what can't I do, which is fine. You can make a very long list of all the things you cannot change about your situation. And I encourage you to do so. But if there is anything on the list of things that you can change, people you can spend more time with, objects that you can place far away or near, if you're trying to, you know, remind yourself to do something, I think you should start working down the checklist and, you know, seeing how that changes everything.

9:31Yeah. And I mean, the other thing that Cody did, not all of us are going to have the opportunity to be PhD students at Stanford, but he did move to the center of the tech world. And if you're going to launch an AI company, there's no better place literally in the known universe than the Bay Area to do it. And you talk in the book about a word I've never heard of that puts name to a concept that I think we understand called agglomeration, where there are centers of excellence. It also feels like you've almost created your own agglomeration at Penn with Katie Milkman there, who's been on the show, with Adam Grant there, who's been on the show.

10:06The work that you all are doing, helping us understand what motivates us, what creates change, how we live our best lives.

10:14Angela Duckworth:You know, the way that Katie and Adam and I wrote our first paper together is we all live here. And I was taking one of my daughters to a dentist appointment at Penn Dental. And I had this like narrow window that I knew I had to be in the waiting room from some indeterminate time. And like literally, Adam Grant, Katie Milkman, and I met in a corner of the Penn Dental office while my daughter got her teeth cleaned or something and, you know, hatched our first study together. And that co-location effect, you know, I know that there are many things to say about remote work, and that is its own complex topic.

10:50Angela Duckworth:One of the things you lose when you are not physically in the same city, in the same room as other people, are those chance encounters and also those planned encounters where you get together and you hatch an idea. And I think that idea of agglomerations and the importance of place, I think it's important to emphasize now because sometimes people are like, I can live anywhere. I can work anywhere. And in some ways that's factually true, it may not be the best thing for you. Let's talk about remote work. Tricia and Masha, who are producing us today, are sick of hearing me talk about this. I haven't heard your speech yet on remote work.

11:28Well, I'm struggling with it because, as you know, I've jumped from industry to industry. Part of my great good fortune has been the ability to sit in rooms and watch people who are far wiser, far more experienced than I am work, and to pick up what I can to apply to my own approaches to these things, but also to take the walk to grab a coffee or tea after and ask all the dumb questions. And remote just makes that so hard to do, right?

11:54Angela Duckworth:I don't want to say that like every company should be, you know, five days in the office. I mean, that would be naive. I think that remote work, when it does work, is when there's a very intentional effort to bring people together physically, all in one place, in the same room, breathing the same air and having a synchronous experience, but also having some leeway, you know, that informality, the sort of spontaneous conversation. Like when you're on a video call, at least if you're on a video call with me, there damn well better be an agenda because I don't want to waste time. But nobody puts on the agenda like eight minutes of kibitzing.

12:30Right.

12:30Angela Duckworth:But that's exactly what you do with a coffee machine. I also really worry, my kids I think are a little bit younger than yours, but they're in the same range as they're entering the work world soon. What this is going to mean for them, what it means for the more junior members of our team here and their own opportunities to grow and learn. And I guess I'm stuck because on the one hand, I feel almost captive by my own experience and how much I benefited from it. And on the other hand, I'm trying to imagine how this can work in the new world. And maybe it's a lack of my own imagination for how to make it better.

13:01I want to invite in a member of our team who is living the remote work life. Masha Makutinina is a producer on Masters of Scale and works across the Weight Watch properties. She's awesome. And I know she has a reaction to this every time we talk about it. So if it's okay, I'd like to invite Masha in.

13:20Angela Duckworth:I approve. Love to hear what Masha has to say about remote work. Hi, thank you so much. What you've shared about the worries or the problems that young professionals like me are having really resonated as I was sitting in my bedroom, right behind me, my bed. The only job experience I've had so far has been remote. I am working from my bedroom. I am embarrassed by my hair because I just thought that I'm going to work from home and no one is going to see me today. Why brush my hair? Why brush my hair? What is a behavior change that maybe someone like me could try? So how's it going first, can I ask, Masha?

13:59Angela Duckworth:Like, how do you feel about working remotely? It sucks. tell me tell me how it sucks i feel like i try to be a good sport and kind of you know do my small talk on slack but it is much easier to maybe choose to be off camera and hop off the call a little bit earlier and then by the end of the day i'm somehow feel a little isolated but drained at the same time. And so I try to maybe seek those connections out in the wild world, but I just feel like I've worked the whole day and I'm like, oh my God, what do I do? How do I force myself? Yeah, it's interesting that you use the word force. Okay, two ideas.

14:46Angela Duckworth:And without knowing a whole lot about your particular situation, you can tell me how these land. I think physically working in your bedroom all day is awful for most people, in part because there is no transition. There is no cue that now work is over. Oh, wait, now work has started. It's just one blur. So I think a physical transition to work is one idea. You can tell me whether it's a good idea or not, but that could mean, you know, working in a coffee shop with good Wi-Fi for much of your day or, you know, going to a WeWork type place. So I think a physical separation, you know, where you like put on different clothing, for example, you are not old enough to have watched Mr.

15:29Angela Duckworth:Rogers' Neighborhood. But Mr. Rogers would always come in and he would take off his outside shoes and put on his inside shoes. And he would take off his outside jacket and put on his inside jacket. And the costumes that we put on to say, like, now I'm at work. Now I'm working out. Now I'm going to bed. I mean, with athleisure, it could be all the same outfit. Physically, that might work, but psychologically, I don't think it does. So you might consider these physical transitions that you can make that you don't have to make, but you might choose to make. And the second option I would have for you is to go visit people.

16:03Angela Duckworth:So I would say of these co-workers that you would probably like to have, you know, a friendship with, just go. Like go and, you know, do work in their city for a day and go out to dinner and then get on a plane and go home and make Jeff pay for it. I love this. Thank you so much, Angela. So I'm hearing intentionality, which sometimes requires discipline, but that's great. Changing your situation takes a little bit of willpower, but that little bit of willpower pays off. So I think if you can take those small steps in the first case, bigger step when you get on a plane. But like, you know, sure, it'll take a little willpower to get it organized, but I think it'll be worth the investment.

16:42Well, the other note for me as an organizational leader is offering unlimited WeWork may not be enough. and what are the nudges that we can offer, the incentives that we can offer that make it easier for you, Masha, to get out of the home and go co-work with team members or with friends or what have you. And so I think it's fair for you also to say, like, I could use some help here. And I appreciate you jumping on and asking Angela for her advice. And you and I can work on this together to make things better.

17:10Angela Duckworth:Yeah, sounds good. You have to keep me posted. I'll give you a grade when you're done. Please. We'll make it pass-fail. There we go. Thanks, Masha. So again, I'm sure a lot of people hate me for saying so many negative things about working in your home office all day. And I know there are upsides, but I have to say, I have so many misgivings about it. There was very recently a study in science, which is the top journal, arguably in the field of all science, not just social science, but the hard sciences too. And it was a study by economists on remote work. And what they did was they looked at professions that were easily transitioning to remote because they were things that could be done through video calls and Google Docs and so forth, and compared them to professions where it was like nearly impossible.

17:57Angela Duckworth:Like it's just an in-person job. You have to be there physically. And when you look at the wellbeing of people who are employed in these different sectors, those who have been in sectors that are more likely to have gone remote are actually doing much worse than those who in some ways are forced to be in person. So that's the personal decision, but I think understanding how important social connection is, is a big part of becoming situationally aware.

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19:10Angela Duckworth:How do we build a future that is human-centered? I'm Rana Elkawiyubi, and on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future, and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find Pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

20:08It takes about 10 seconds to find. Just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there.

20:24You talk in the book about Coach Ladd and DeSalle High School, which happens to be about 15 minutes from where I'm sitting today in Orinda, California, having this conversation with you, which had a pretty rough streak of losing seasons for a long time. and then went on to rip off 151 game win streak, which is mind boggling in any sport. And I'd love for you to tell the story of how they built the culture there with commitment cards and the rituals around it, because we've already had a conversation about implementing it at, wait, what, the company behind Masters of Scale, because it just struck me as so powerful.

20:58Angela Duckworth:Coach Ladd was in his young 20s when he became the coach of the football team at De La Salle High School. It's a very small, modest Catholic school. I don't think they had ever had a winning season in their history as a school before Coach Ladd joined. And how does he turn it into the football team with the longest streak in history? I mean, John Madden took time out of his career and his life to make a full documentary on De La Salle High School because he thought the phenomenon was that worthy. And it is all about culture. So what Coach Ladd did was create a culture of peer accountability. You know, he discovered very early on as a coach and as a mentor that you can tell people what to do, but it doesn't work very well.

21:46Angela Duckworth:And you can try to keep the people who report to you, in this case, his players, accountable by the force of your authority because you are higher level than they are. But it's not very effective. And so what he discovered was that there is no higher force. there is no higher court than the court of peer opinion. And therefore, he tried to get a culture going where you play your heart out and you practice your heart out, not because the coach told you to, and not even to please the coach, but to please your fellow teammates. He had this commitment card idea, actually was a, I think, an assistant coach at the time who was working for coach lad who had this idea, but you know, together they ginned it up.

22:31Angela Duckworth:You take a three by five blank index card and you as a player write down your goals for the next week. When you get to, you know, the end of writing this down, you end by saying, I commit to, and then you name another player and you exchange cards with that other player. And for those next seven days, your peer, your teammate keeps you accountable. They watch you in the weight room. They watch you at practice and they watch you on game day. And the following week, before you write your next commitment card, your partner stands up and they read out your goals to the whole team who's watching in reverent silence.