Anti-polarizing strategies from a purple city, with OKC Mayor David Holt

0:00Early-stage teams move fast, but juggling contractors, global payroll, HR workflows, visas, and IT equipment, that slows you down. Deal brings all of it into one simple platform. so founders don't need multiple tools or a full HR team just to stay compliant. Whether it's your first payroll or your first global hire, Deal is designed to help from day zero and built to scale. Deal is the fastest way to hire, manage, pay, and equip anyone, anywhere. Deal, your forever people platform. Visit deel.com slash mos to learn more and book a demo. What we've had is a workforce shortage in Oklahoma City now for basically the whole time I've been mayor.

0:46So I need people to take these jobs and all kinds of jobs, you know, highly skilled jobs and low skilled jobs. And so the historical American answer to that problem has often been immigration. And sure, I mean, it has to be like controlled and regulated. I mean, it's not an argument for open borders, but you can't just close your border either. You know, I mean, you have to find some reasonable middle ground where you are taking in a pretty healthy number of immigrants. If you don't do that, yeah, you're going to suffer economic consequences. That's Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt. As U.S. cities of all sizes face unprecedented pressure from federal budget shifts, ice raids and potential National Guard presence, I wanted to talk to Mayor Holt, who's the current president of the U.S.

1:38Conference of Mayors. Mayor Holt is a Republican in what he calls a deeply purple city, and he offers a refreshing perspective about why cities are thriving and what statewide and national institutions can learn from mayors on the ground experience. There are plenty of lessons for business leaders, too, about how to lead and appeal to a broad constituency without being polarizing or alienating. So let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

2:13I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt, current president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors. Mayor, thanks for being here. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Bob. So Oklahoma City is the 20th largest city in the U.S. Many people know it because of the OKC Thunder, the reigning NBA champs, or as a hub of Native American culture, oil and gas drilling. Of course, the tragic Oklahoma-Mississippi bombing in 1995. When you have to describe OKC in a sentence or two to people who don't know as much about it, how do you describe it? What do you say? As a mayor who's wanting you to take my city seriously, I often lead with 20th largest city because I know you probably don't think of us as being that big.

2:59I'm probably going to talk about the Thunder because that is front of mind. And they are fun to watch. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What I really want people to know about Oklahoma City is that it has all of the amenities of a great American city. And it's in a very dynamic growth phase right now, you know, and that this is really kind of our golden age. And we're offering a very unique value proposition in American life right now, which is we sort of still have all of the ease of living and cost of living of a smaller place, but you can go to James Beard Award-winning restaurants, you can watch the NBA champions, you can go to great art museums, you can go to great parks, and you can enjoy all the amenities that you would expect to find in a much larger place.

3:45And I think that is a unique combination. Now, sometimes so many people take you up on it that you start to lose that ease of living and that cost of living advantage. But But in the meantime, I say enjoy it. So I think I obviously I spend a lot of time selling my city and it's a great product to sell. But oftentimes I deal with a lot of ignorance about my city or just, you know, kind of a blank stare. Right. And so it's it's oftentimes I have a blank canvas upon which to paint. This moment that you talk about Oklahoma City having like where does that come from? I mean, here's it in a nutshell.

4:19It's really begins in the 1980s when we experienced an oil bust. and that was a depression, an economic depression for our city. And then we tried to, we were trying to chase this United Airlines facility in the early nineties. It was kind of like the Amazon two of its time. Lots of cities were trying to get this big, uh, this big job opportunity, thousands of jobs, and we didn't get it. And it went to Indianapolis and our mayor at the time, this is sort of like a famous story locally, supposedly called the CEO of United Airlines. And he asked, why didn't you come here? I mean, we had like passed a tax incentive for, and we did all these things.

4:56And he said, well, Mayor, I just couldn't imagine making my employees live in Oklahoma City. And you know, it was that moment that really finally crystallized for us that our quality of life was not where it needed to be. And really that in a modern America, the jobs follow the people, not the other way around. You used to think like, well, people moved where there was economic opportunity. But in fact, like people just moved where they wanted to live. And then the people who offer economic opportunity had no choice but to go where those people are, where those talented people are. And so in 1993, we passed a sales tax initiative called MAPS, Metropolitan Area Projects.

5:42And it invested just in quality of life stuff. It built the arena that the Thunder just won the championship in. It built a downtown ballpark. It built things that you don't necessarily need for human survival, but are actually pretty existential to a city's survival. And that has made all the difference. And we're now on Maps 4. That's my version as mayor. And actually, over this 30 years, our voters have voted 15 times, 15 and 0. We've never lost one to invest in our city's quality of life and core infrastructure to the tune of just under$10 billion. And so that investment in ourself is really the key to our success.

6:20And in my lifetime, we've gone from being the 37th largest city to the 20th largest city. And you don't make that kind of movement in the top 40 without doing something dramatic. And the dramatic thing we did was invest in ourselves and really improved our quality of life. And as a result, the theory has been proven out. Our economy is strong. everything about our city has improved. There was a branding issue for the city, right? But the way to deal with that was not focus on the branding, but focus on the actual experience and let the brand sort of follow. It's true of cities and businesses and products and everything.

6:53You can't always just market your way out of a problem. I mean, sometimes you actually have to address the problem. And I think that we understood that we couldn't just like come up with a flashy TV ad to make Oklahoma City look better than it was. We had to actually make Oklahoma City better first. So you and I were connected by a mutual colleague, a former guest on the show, Nazneen Ash of Welcome U.S., and she talked about you as a sort of unexpected nonpartisan operator. I mean, you're a Republican. You don't always tow the MAGA line. Like, is that a reflection of Oklahoma City, Of course, it's a reflection of me.

7:33I'm an authentic person. But what incentivizes me as mayor operates on a couple levels. One, the city is much more purple than people might think from the outside looking in. I mean, yeah, the state hasn't voted for a Democrat for president since Lyndon B. Johnson. But the city is basically 50-50. In the 2020 and 2024 presidential elections, Trump won this county 49-48, that exact same number in both of those elections, which is a really pretty good microcosm of the country. And we're also a pretty good microcosm of the country demographically. But we work together and get things done, which leads me to my second point about, I think, what makes me who I am as mayor of this city.

8:20We have an electoral system that is actually pretty common among cities. for whatever historical reason. When I run for election as mayor, I don't go through a closed partisan primary like most people do around the country when they run for governor or U.S. Senate or whatever. They first face the most extreme voters that this country has who have kind of a different priority list than the rest of us. This is going to be true in a red state and a blue state, right? If you're running in a closed Republican primary, you got to be all MAGA, you got to be part of the Trump cult, you know, but if you're running in a, in a blue state and a closed partisan primary, especially in a lot of, you know, certain really hardcore blue areas, you practically have to pretend to be a communist, you know?

9:07And so, so like here in Oklahoma City, however, I face all of the voters on election day, Republicans, independents, and Democrats, and it incentivizes me and all of my predecessors to just talk about the issues that are important to the 70 % of people in the middle and really kind of ignore the extremes that are so powerful in closed partisan primaries and build a coalition of normal Republicans, Democrats, and independents that represent that 70%. So when I say, it's important when I say that the city is a microcosm of the country, both politically and demographically, because we are proving through my elections and through the elections that we have for these initiatives, because I got 78 and 60 % in my two elections, and my initiatives have gotten 72, 71, and 75%.

9:55If you're that divided on national politics, but you're able to come together on these local issues and these local candidates, to me, the only difference between the two is the way that we run the election. And of course, when we elect Congress people here in Oklahoma City, we vote through the closed partisan primary and all of that. But when we elect mayors, everybody gets to vote. And I think this is so critical. So I talk about it a lot because it sounds like wonky and sort of like, well, that's obscure. I want to talk about the issues, you know, but I'm telling you, like, every issue is built on the foundation of how you elect people and how we elect people in America is killing us.

10:36You know, like we've got to get back to a system like we have in a lot of cities where everybody votes. And I'm telling you, when everybody votes, we're not as crazy as we look like we are. We're actually pretty normal and we can compromise and we can work together. When you talk to other mayors, I mean, so much of America has become so polarized, but are mayors not necessarily more partisan than they used to be? Well, first of all, I reject the notion that Americans are polarized. I believe that those 15 percent at both extremes that control the primaries are polarized and they're producing polarizing candidates.

11:09But I would argue there's still 70 percent of us in the middle who just want to work together and we learn how to compromise in kindergarten and we're still capable of it, but we're not getting a chance to do it in our electoral systems. But mayors, for the most part, being most of us are elected through what I just described, which is basically a top two system where all the voters get to see all of the candidates and all of the candidates have to face all of the voters. Yeah, it incentivizes us differently. And so, So, yeah, we tend to be we tend to operate in a much more pragmatic fashion. And I guess the other thing, of course, that makes us unique is like we got to get things done.

11:47So, I mean, the services we provide to you are literally necessary for human survival. Right. If the water system doesn't work for about three days, you'll start, you know, my citizens will start dying. Right. So, like, I've got to pick up the trash, produce the water, you know, do all these core services. And so we really kind of have no choice but to just get it done. Like, I can't I can't settle for this partisan nonsense and bickering. So you are you are shortly going to be convening the nation's mayors in your role as as head of the U.S. Conference of Mayors in D.C. at the end of the month.

12:24Things are pretty intense in some cities right now. What are the the top agenda items for for this meeting? Like, what do you what do you hope to achieve? You know, so the U.S. Conference of Mayors, the organization I serve as president of for the next six months, I've been doing it about six months. I serve one year term as the president. We've been around for nearly 100 years. We advocate as a group. And so that's like why we go to D.C. every January and why we're going to D.C. at the end of this month. We speak as one and we do so in a very bipartisan fashion. There's a lot of groups like this for different levels of government.

13:03There's a National Governors Association. There's several organizations for state legislators and so on. But we're kind of the only one left that is very and truly bipartisan. And so it's not to say that we're all the same, but we sure work really hard to find the common ground and the things that we can advocate for jointly in Washington. So that's our first purpose. And we've been very influential through the years. The second thing we do is, you know, we share best practices. Of course, we all, you know, face a lot of the same challenges in our cities. And so if there's a new mayor like Zoran Mamdani coming in in New York, is there like a welcome process for him, an orientation program?

13:43We work with Bloomberg and Harvard, and there is kind of a new mayor school. It's two days long, and it happened back in December. And though the new mayor of New York was not there, there actually were quite a few big city and small city mayors there. The third thing we do is we support each other. I would say that is not insignificant. again. And I always like to bring it up. I mean, there's only one person in your city who knows what you're going through. You know, you need like that, that, that, that friend group really of peers who, who, who can support you. And we do that for each other.

14:15I mean, you know, modern technology allows, you know, an almost endless conversation to be happening among mayors. And so in this environment, like the, the White House has gone after some U.S. mayors, deploying the National Guard to cities, pursuing ice raids in L.A., in Chicago, of course, Minneapolis. Will you guys all talk about this when you're together? How do you keep these conversations from turning partisan or, you know, rancorous? Well, I mean, there's probably not a lot of mayors of any political persuasion who like intervention in cities. I mean, so that's one thing that's, you know, going to be, nonpartisan among mayors.

14:57Even a Republican mayor believes in local control, right? So I don't think it'll be particularly rancorous. We'll definitely talk about it. It's a challenging situation in so many ways, but not the least of which is there's no easy solution for a city. You are in our form of government. You're kind of a subservient level. You can't really literally. You don't have control over everything, right? Right. I mean, of course, as a mayor, like you get emails like when, you know, the Whopper didn't have cheese on it. You get emails when, you know, everything under the sun. And so certainly your residents also believe that when federal government forces are coming into your city that there's something you should be able to do.

15:39But, I mean, the reality of it is what it is. Like there's not a lot that you can do. I mean, you legally can't really stand in the way of the federal government. You can try to use rhetoric, but that's its own issue because that rhetoric doesn't seem to be doing much to persuade the actions of the federal government and its leadership. And sometimes that rhetoric can actually cause a counterreaction that's worse. Sometimes you have residents who want the emotional satisfaction of you screaming at people, but you kind of know that that's actually going to be counterproductive. counterproductive.

16:18That's what leadership is, just trying to be caught in the middle of those forces. And sometimes you just have to suck it up and take it, but you know deep down you're doing the right thing for your people. It's really tricky, right? The role that you play beyond your city, it's sort of how much or what kind of role should you play nationally on policy, on social issues, like where you should and shouldn't have agency. Well, it's like any leadership position. I mean, you can't fight every battle, you know, And, of course, but there's always somebody who thinks you should. So, you know, that's the deal is, yeah, making sure you exercise your influence where it really exists and when it's best utilized.

16:58And then otherwise, yeah, maybe sometimes you just got to keep your head down. Mayor Holt is pretty outspoken for a guy who talks about keeping your head down. But there are so many unexpected things about him, about Oklahoma City, and about his observations of what the U.S. needs. Next up, we'll be digging into how business and government should ideally interact, his take on immigration, and how AI is and isn't trickling down to the local level. Stay with us.

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18:39your mind. I am the absolute worst culprit when it comes to getting into these ruminative loops and just driving myself crazy. So join me to get unstuck and moving happily forward in 2026. Listen to The Happiness Lab wherever you get your podcasts. Before the break, Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt talked about the distinctive role that cities play in U.S. politics and economic activity. Now he talks about how business and government should interact, what he sees as the upside of immigration, and how AI is showing up at the local level. Let's jump back in. Our audience is largely business people, entrepreneurs.

19:21What sort of relationship should mayors have with businesses, with national businesses, with local businesses? I'm a believer in Oklahoma City's history for a very strong partnership between elected city leaders and the business community. Those 15 initiatives that I mentioned, the Chamber of Commerce ran every one of the campaigns because we can't really run a campaign. You know, like, I can have an idea and I can post about it on my Facebook, but, like, the government can't pay to run TV ads and mail you persuasive mail pieces about it. Like, somebody else outside of City Hall has to do that legally and practically, right?

20:00And so, we've had a great relationship with our business community here. And ultimately, besides the elections, I mean, you need a strong economy, right, to really enjoy all of your aspirations. You know, when people in my community talk about the very real human challenges that we face, like homelessness and poverty, and to me, it's like, I don't really see a pathway to meet those needs and those challenges without a strong economy, me, right? So like, I've got to have, I've got to have a business community that's thriving. And certainly I play a role in that, ensuring that we have the regulatory and tax environment that's, that's helpful to them.

20:42And, you know, also as a mayor, you're often out there, you know, cheerleading or recruiting. You're kind of like the business recruiter in chief. So no, I'm, I'm, I'm a big believer. I mean, sure. You shouldn't be a tool of crony capitalism. I mean, That's a different thing. I guess that's like the fear of it going too far. But to me, that's at that point, you're not really supporting business growth. You're just supporting individual businesses. But overall, a fair and neutral pro-business environment is very important to, I think, a city like mine. And that's probably the one of the major aspects of my, you know, general philosophy that appears the most Republican.

21:24Right. I'm a free market pro business mayor. On immigration, say, are you like what? Where where does that fit? Or I mean, that helps grow your population, but it's also got a lot of tricky elements to it. Well, I mean, it can if you want to act like it's a weakness. But, you know, it has actually historically been one of the great strengths for America just from a business perspective, right? I mean, we need people to take jobs of all kinds in Oklahoma City. We have a record streak right now of unemployment below 4%, 50 straight months. So, you know, what we've had is a workforce shortage in Oklahoma City now for basically the whole time I've been mayor.

22:14So, you know, I need people, you know, I need people to take these jobs and all kinds of jobs, you know, highly skilled jobs and low skilled jobs. And so, you know, the historical American answer to that problem has often been immigration. And, yeah, sure. I mean, it has to be like controlled and, you know, regulated. I mean, it's not an argument for open borders, but you can't just close your border either, you know? I mean, you have to find some reasonable middle ground where you are taking in a pretty healthy number of immigrants. And you will find if you don't do that, yeah, you're going to suffer economic consequences.

22:55And then, of course, there are these wonderful byproducts of it. Great culture, great, you know, diversity, that diversity of thought and experience. But really, I think in many ways, if you just want to be practical about it and probably you could find the greatest consensus around the idea that it's just an economic necessity to have, you know, pretty strong immigration in your communities. Makes me think of what you were saying earlier about the way sort of the extremes of our country drive these policies as opposed to sort of the common sense about it. Sure. 15 percent of the country thinks there should be no immigration.

23:3015 % of the country thinks you should just like take the fences down and just let's all live in one happy world. And then the 70 % of us in the middle have a common sense immigration policy that we could probably write if you could just put all of us in a room one day. But like we never get to do that because the debate is controlled by these two polar opposites. And again, I just think it looks like from the outside that I guess those are the two viewpoints and they'll never reconcile. And the reality is, no, there's a bunch of us who could figure this out if you would just sort of let us speak with one voice.

24:02But again, our electoral system doesn't really encourage that. I'm struck by how much, as you describe it, like the role of cities, of mayors is like this ballast that is, you know, keeping the country from tipping too far towards the extremes. Yeah, well, I mean, we are kind of the last bastion of responsible governance in the country. And yeah, God help us if we tip into this insanity and hyper-partisanship and polarization and ultimately just this ineffectiveness that happens at the extremes of the ideological spectrum. So, and yeah, I mean, I am fearful of that. Here in Oklahoma, there's a petition right now being gathered.

24:47We'll see if it makes it to the ballot, but it would actually create statewide a top two election system like we do in Oklahoma City. So and I'm very vocally supporting that. So I would say, like, I'm not just resigned to the reality that state and national politics have to be dysfunctional. I'm using this platform to push back and hope that we can be, you know, a bulwark that is actually pushing effective governance back into the other levels of government in this country, because I think we provide a great example that it is actually possible. It doesn't have to be this way. Oklahoma City, you mentioned sort of economically, is doing quite well.

25:29U.S. cities overall, do you feel like they're in a good place? They're in a tough place? We are the chief economic and cultural engines of the country. And so, I mean, relative to non-urban places, we're still where it's at, and I don't see that changing. And, you know, maybe the tradeoff has historically been higher levels of crime. But right now, practically every American city is experiencing historic declines in the crime rates. So, yeah, I think American cities are in a great place. They are still the place where talented and intelligent and creative people flock. It's still a place where innovation happens.

26:14And right now, it's not a place that's any more dangerous than other places. That's not the rhetoric that emanates out of D.C. And so that can like kind of warp your thinking. Well, I don't know. I mean, I keep hearing that there's like, you know, that there's a carnage across our American cities, you know, and that's not reality. That serves someone's political purpose, I guess. But no, I think on the ground, in reality, cities are actually having a great time. And this perception of like an urban-rural divide, you know, different lifestyle, different values, different type of work, do you see that?