Brian Grazer: Scale your curiosity (Encore)

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0:41That's why over 3 ,000 firms trust Affinity, the CRM platform purpose-built for private capital. Affinity's relationship intelligence reveals your team's strongest paths to founders, investors, and decision makers using insights It's hidden in emails, calendars, and meetings. With powerful AI tools like Affinity NoteTaker and Deal Assist, you'll spend less time managing data and more time closing the right deals. Learn more at affinity.co slash marketplace. Hey, listeners. We recently shared a conversation with Ron Howard, the legendary director and co-founder of Imagine Entertainment. This week, we're bringing back its companion episode.

1:25Reid Hoffman talks with Brian Grazer, the other co-founder of Imagine and acclaimed TV and film producer. Brian shares that tapping into genuine curiosity is the key to building any meaningful network and ultimately to scaling your business. I hope you enjoy it. You've got to have incredible talent at every position. It's like this huge push. There are fires burning when you're going home. Can you believe it? Such an idiot. And then you go back to, this is totally going to be amazing. There are so many easy ways. I'm supposed to know what to do. I have no idea what to do. Sorry, we made a mistake.

1:59But you have to time it right. Oops. Working out of a three-bedroom apartment. Stuff that just seems absolutely nut balls. Ten years later, we're like, well, that's just how you do it. We haven't made it just how you do it.

2:13This is Masters of Scale.

2:19I'm Reid Hoffman, co-founder of LinkedIn, partner at Greylock, and your host. And I believe you need to build your network based on curiosity, not context. Doing so will give you a head start in generating and sustaining surprising ideas, opportunities, and discoveries. However, impactful networking is easier said than done. To cultivate and maintain a healthy network takes skill and dedication, which is why I wanted to talk to Brian Grazer. Aside from being one of the most successful producers working in Hollywood, Brian is a master of networking and sparking human connection. As the co-founder of Imagine Entertainment, alongside famed director Ron Howard, Brian has produced a staggering number of hit movies and TV shows, including Apollo 13, Frost Nixon, Friday Night Lights, and 24.

3:11I also love how Brian's success in scaling his ability to create impactful stories is based on something that at first seems unscalable, one-to-one interactions. For decades, Brian systemized his networking by instigating a bi-weekly one-hour curiosity meeting with a new contact. These conversation companions can range from Hollywood icons to Uber drivers. Whoever his companion is, Brian's primary focus is to listen and learn. To understand how Brian started to develop this practice, we needed to grab our book bags and join Brian back at elementary school in the 1960s.

3:52Growing up, my dyslexia earned me straight Fs on my report card every single year. Brian's constant struggles in school rattled his self-confidence. But there was someone in his life who always helped him bounce back. I had a grandmother named Sonia Schwartz, tiny little Sonia, about, I had to be four foot ten. And she would look at my straight F's and she'd say, you're going all the way. You know, you're going to be something. And I'd say, there's really no empirical data that supports that, Grandma.

4:32Brian's grandmother, Sonia, knew there was a way to accumulate expertise that didn't involve the classroom. She had a discipline in place. She, every weekend, would take me someplace new. She took me to Dodger Stadium. She took me to the Hollywood racetrack when I was 9 or 10 years old. And I learned to bet on the horses through her. We would constantly visit new places to eat. of all types. Sonia introduced young Brian to the true vibrancy of Los Angeles. She also encouraged Brian to be curious, even if that meant going to extra effort to make connections. Here's Brian recalling a typical example from when they visited a restaurant.

5:18She'd introduce me to the chef. She'd always call, where's the big boss? So she'd introduce me to the big boss. So I was constantly interacting with new people, new ideas that would produce new experiences. Sonia is a prime example that you're never too old or experienced to stop asking questions. Seek wisdom wherever you can find it. You can find entrepreneurial inspiration anywhere. It doesn't have to be in your own industry or bubble. From a young age, Brian saw the power of making the effort to reach out to people of all walks of life. As a teenager and college student, Brian developed the confidence to engage with professors and authority figures.

6:01But once again, Brian realized he learned more outside of formal education. My first week after graduating college at USC, I asked myself, what did I learn in college? And I came to the quick conclusion, I learned very little, quite frankly. Note that Brian isn't saying his professors and fellow students didn't have anything to teach him. Rather, the system of college education wasn't right for his way of learning. Although there was one class that stood out for Brian, a class in which he felt he'd actually learned something. So Brian decided to reach out to the professor who taught it. His name was Dr.

6:39Milton Walpin. He taught a psychology class. And I tracked him down during this first summer week. And he said, you've graduated. What do you need me for? And I said, well, I really just want to have a conversation with you because I wanted to codify this memory of my one class that I learned something from. The two sat down and discussed the deeper meanings behind the professor's class and wrestled with some of life's biggest questions. I realized in this one hour, I learned more than I'd ever learned in college. And I thought, I'm going to do this every single week with somebody. And I didn't know who that somebody would be.

7:18Seeking out more stimulating conversations became Brian's main focus, and he soon uncovered an ingenious way to fuel his curiosity engine. I was in my apartment complex in Santa Monica, and I overheard these three USC law graduates. It was almost like a contest between the three of them, talking about the easiest job they'd ever had. One guy said, you have to listen to what I had to do at Warner Brothers. For the most part, I just wandered the halls and had not much to do and paid well. He said, well, I would drive papers around and deliver them. But I just quit. When I overheard that, I dialed information, got the number of Warner Brothers and asked for the legal department, got a meeting that day with the man in charge, and he hired me that day.

8:15Warner Brothers was one of the hottest studios at the time. Brian suddenly found himself surrounded by the bustle of the movie-making world. It was a place known for fleeting, transactional relationships, but Brian was determined to build more enduring and enlightening connections. The second week I was asked to deliver some papers, a huge stack of papers to Warren Beatty. And I knew very little about show business, but I certainly knew who Warren Beatty was. He was the biggest star in the world at the time. Papers in hand, Brian traveled through Hollywood to the Beverly Wilshire Hotel. At the time, Warren Beatty lived on the hotel's top floor.

8:57Someone comes down and says, give me the papers. And I just had this idea dart into my mind. I said to him, unless I hand these papers directly to Warren Beatty himself, the papers themselves are not authorized, and I'm going to have to take them back to Warner Brothers, and we'll just start this process over again. A second assistant comes down. He challenges it. I said, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to leave and go back to Warner Brothers. He said, okay, come on up. Brian's spontaneous gambit worked. After walking through the Baroque lobby and into the apartment, he was now face-to-face with Warren Beatty.

9:36While I handed the papers to Warren Beatty, I asked him a question. And that question wasn't really significant. It was just a way to start a conversation that was related to show business and to he as a human being specifically. And he turned it into an hour-long conversation on a couch and offered me an espresso. And we talked for an hour. and I gave him the papers and left. However forgettable, Brian's first question was, he managed to infect Warren with his curiosity. No matter who you're talking to, network curiosity only works if you show a deep interest in the person. Curiosity can act as a catalyst for meaningful conversation, even between a revered Hollywood star and a lowly young office assistant.

10:25So instill curiosity in those you meet by asking questions and showing enthusiasm. If your curiosity is infectious, you'll be surprised by the time and energy others will be willing to give you. This interaction with Warren Beatty opened Brian's eyes to the massive potential of working at Warner Brothers. I realized that I could do this every single time I had to deliver papers. I can say, I have to hand you the papers directly. I could just create list upon list of people that were making a difference in the entertainment business. And so not only did I deliver papers and have these meetings, but every day I would institute a new conversation.

11:06Heading into the early 1980s, Brian had already left Warner Brothers to begin producing TV pilots at Paramount. I had an office on the Paramount lot. And I opened up my window because I saw Ron Howard. I ripped it open and I yelled out the window just impulsively, Ron, Ron Howard! and he glanced at me and then kind of took off. So he eluded me, but I thought, you know, no, I really want to talk to him. I want to make Ron one of my curiosity conversations. Determined to pick Ron Howard's brain, Brian called Ron's office, went over his assistant, and soon enough, the day arrived for the two to meet.

11:49Ron, he came to my office. We shared movie ideas back and forth, back and forth, And we had this magical one-hour conversation with one another. What truly sealed the partnership was a mutual admiration for one another's energy and enthusiasm. We shared the same dream. I was aspiring to be a mainstream, big-time Hollywood producer, and he was aspiring to be a mainstream, big-time Hollywood director. We thought, wow, we should use our creative bandwidth to build a company that would enable us to make many movies at one time. You might recognize this story from our recent episode with Ron Howard.

12:34If you haven't heard that episode yet, it acts as a great companion piece to Brian's journey. The two, of course, went on to form one of the most fruitful partnerships in Hollywood history. This is another huge benefit of constantly building your curiosity network. You will vastly increase the odds of finding potential partners. This is why it pays to be bold in your network curiosity. In the case of Brian, it was scream out of a window bold. Brian and Ron founded the production company Imagine Entertainment in 1985. One of their first ideas as a duo was for a fantastical movie called Splash. about a romance between a man and a mermaid.

13:16It was thought of as the dumbest idea in Hollywood. Like, stay away from Brian Grazer, he's got that mermaid idea. As the producer, it was Brian's job to go and pitch splash to studios all over Hollywood. I would tell everybody it wasn't just a mermaid idea, it was a love story. and love stories, there's universality to them. But after hundreds and hundreds of no's, I got one person to say yes. And that was somebody at the Walt Disney Company at the time. As we know, Splash was a huge hit, helping propel Tom Hanks to megastar status and getting Imagine recognized as an exciting new force in film.

14:01The chorus of no's that Brian endured is an echo of what most entrepreneurs have to endure. It also gave him an important insight into getting his projects made. The dumbest idea in Hollywood known by all got made and turned out to be a critical darling, and I got nominated for an Oscar. And I thought, wow, that means nobody knows anything, whether it's a movie story or a tech story or a consumer story. The parallel with the tech industry is just how do you get something that's contrarian but right? And frequently what I say that in the venture industry is your ideal investment is something that seems crazy right now and totally obvious two to three years from now.

14:43Was LinkedIn just a natural, like you thought, oh, that's going to grow and scale? No, a lot of people thought it was Bozoville. Both smart people and unexperienced people thought that LinkedIn was crazy. The smart people thought, hey, it's a network product and you're going to have no value proposition until a lot of people are in it. So no one's going to join because first person, second person, third person, all no value proposition. And then the less experienced people were just like, well, who wants to do professional networking? Like, why would that be something? I mean, it's, you know, people only want to go meet, you know, Bill Gates or someone else.

15:18Basically, you don't know what you're doing. You're jumping off a cliff without a plane, without a parachute. It's going to be ugly. A great idea requires someone just as crazy as you are to see its potential and buy into it. The more sprawling your curiosity network, the better your chances are of finding that one other crazy person. But remember, it's not just about having a big network. It's about cultivating a network of open-minded individuals who are receptive to your curiosity. After the break, we'll hear how Brian prepares for his curiosity conversations and how he sparks human connection to ignite great ideas.

15:55So stay with us.

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16:56And here's the best part. Join AWS Activate today and you could score up to$100 ,000 in AWS credits tailored to your stage and network. Go to aws.amazon.com slash activate and start building. Expanding your business in the U.S. can feel like a maze. Every state has its own payroll, benefits, and compliance rules, which can pull your focus away from growth. That's why founders use Deal. Deal is the professional employer organization, or PEO, that gives you a dedicated HR expert plus Fortune 500-level benefits for your team. The National Association of PEOs says businesses can grow twice as fast if they use one.

17:40So if you're scaling, make it simple with Deal. Go to deel.com slash mos and get up to three months free. We're back with Brian Grazer. To see exclusive clips from my interview with Brian, head to the Masters of Scale YouTube channel. You'll be able to get more insights from Brian's career, including his rules for hiring directors and writers.

18:10Before the break, we heard how Brian set up the practice of weekly curiosity conversations, and how one of these led to his enduring partnership with Ron Howard. Before we dive in to the next chapter of Brian's illustrious career, let's explore what work goes into these conversations and how you can make moments of networking more impactful. I had things that I would do prior to having any conversation. I'd do research on the person. I would try to learn something about their personal life and about what mattered to them.

18:47An example is the time Brian met fashion designer and filmmaker Tom Ford. I suggested some music that I thought he never heard but would want to hear because, of course, designers care a lot about music because it's a relevant ingredient to how they sell clothes. So I'd come with some sort of gift to them. I did that with Jay-Z as well. I try to find out the thing that they care about on a human and business level that they might not be given and I could provide it. Yeah. Yeah, doing the work to show that you care that it's a conversation. It's a dance between people. You care about what they're getting out of it and their engagement.

19:31It's like a date. Yeah. It's just sadly so rare. But it's like I put some energy in and here's something that could be fun and interesting and useful for you too. And when people see that, they're much more likely to respond in an engaged and warm fashion. When you're networking, put time and effort into knowing who it is you're talking to. Going in prepared sets you up to make the most impactful connection. You have to start with pure intention. Because in order to create a real network, people cannot feel deceived. They have to feel your authentic self, your soul. Another important thing these conversations do for Brian is push him out of his comfort zone and open his mind to new cultures, art forms, and modes of expression.

20:18For Brian, one example in particular stands out. 20 years ago, I met Old Dirty Bastard in a curiosity conversation. Old Dirty Bastard, otherwise known as ODB, was a revered member of the Wu-Tang Clan, known for his outlandish behavior and his offbeat humor. Prior to this conversation, Brian was highly skeptical of the artistry involved in hip-hop. The whole subculture was totally foreign to him. But ODB intrigued Brian, who wanted to better understand the rapper and the hip-hop world he came from. By meeting this one guy, it got me to ultimately make the movie 8 Mile with Eminem. Through the process of making 8 Mile, Brian grew to love and admire hip-hop.

21:10and by doing eight mile it caused me to produce a concert and later a documentary with jay-z called made in america so each one of these conversations becomes the foundation of a tree each tree has many many branches i want to take a moment to shine a light on how important it is to pursue what you don't yet understand. Never presume that if it doesn't make sense to you, then it's not worth your time or won't align with your interests. Utilize your network to dig deeper and get to the heart of ideas and perspectives that are foreign to you. Great ideas are made in this kind of discovery. Since we were engaged in an extended curiosity conversation of our own, I couldn't help but ask him about his thoughts on AI in the future of his industry.

22:02How do you think people should think about AI as a catalyst for storytelling in humanity? Well, it makes me feel more confident that we as human beings have great value being human beings. Anything that involves creativity involves nuance. And I don't know if machines pick up eye contact and eye dilation and physiogamy and did I wiggle my leg when I was talking? I feel more confident in the value of human networks than ever before.

22:45The humanity of active listening and awareness was pivotal in one of Brian's most high-stakes casting decisions. Part of Tom Hanks getting the job in Splash was his nervous, crazy nervous whacking of a pencil while he was talking. And he still does that, actually. He seems so calm and together. But you get to watch that in juxtaposition. You go, wow, no, inside of that calm, highly articulate, very intelligent man is some nervousness and some insecurity and some demons and all those other things that add to his complexity.

23:29Brian argues that this contradiction is what makes an actor like Tom Hanks so captivating. In those interpersonal connections, Brian sees something that AI is yet to be able to. It's important to remember, humans aren't built like chatbots. We aren't going to use the perfect words in the perfect order and in the perfect moment. To support Brian's idea, AI needs our language and ideas to feed it functions. They can't yet replace the gestalt of a human conversation, which is the entire experience of a conversation. All those things, I don't think, get detected by AI. So I do feel more confident about my ability to not only form networks, but value networks.

24:13To be clear, I don't fully align with Brian on his assumption that AI will never be capable of parsing microexpressions and evaluating body language. To a certain extent, it already can. But it's unclear as to whether it will ever surpass or even match what the best humans can achieve. So what I'm taking away from Brian's story about casting Tom Hanks is, to be irreplaceable, be a better human. The human side of networking requires active listening, perceptiveness, and emotional intelligence. In a world where AI is soon to be capable of arranging work meetings and calendars on your behalf, the human side of networking is here for the long haul.

24:55Speaking of a connection that stood the test of time, as Brian and Ron Howard scaled Imagine Entertainment over the years, they wanted to turn their attention to discovering and nurturing new talent.

25:08You're stuck in this bureaucracy of studios where you get to pitch your idea to one executive, and it takes years to get that idea to the top of the stack. So I felt that was really unfair, this sort of medieval hierarchy that was created in Hollywood. It bothered me so much. So in 2018, they founded Impact, a boot camp for new writers to workshop their scripts and gain access to top-level mentorship. Brian's inspiration for Imagine Impact was surprisingly not rooted in the entertainment industry, but in tech. It was completely modeled after Y Combinator. And in fact, Sam Altman and Paul Graham were great help.

25:52They were incubating what could be great startups that could become tremendous companies. And that's exactly what you're doing with stories, is you're trying to find an original voice. You're looking for truthful, sustainable voices. I think Airbnb, Chesky and the group comes out of their heart. And many of these great movie stories come out of somebody's heart. After the structure and roadmap for Imagine Impact were created, they needed funding to get the initiative off the ground. I pitched this to Bill Gurley. Bill Gurley is a legendary VC at Benchmark, having led investments in companies like Grubhub, Uber, and Zillow.