Don't be boring: KCRW's Jennifer Ferro on building a brand people love

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0:41That's linkedin.com slash scale. Terms and conditions apply. The very best founders I know are brilliant at building systems. They connect teams, they remove bottlenecks, and they eliminate single points of failure. And yet, when it comes to their own wealth, most are running a disconnected stack. A tax accountant here and a state attorney there, a wealth manager who doesn't talk to either one of them. Creative planning was built to fix exactly that. One integrated team of tax professionals, state planners, investment specialists, all coordinated by a dedicated wealth manager who sees your full financial picture and keeps every piece working together.

1:26Proactive tax efficiency, estate strategy, investments all under one roof. Creative planning where wealth works together. Learn more at creativeplanning.com slash mastersofscale. AI is full of possibilities. Enterprises run on realities. That's why Pega combines the world's most powerful AI with the governance, transparency, and control enterprises demand. So you can move faster, adapt faster, and scale AI with confidence. All the power of AI, none of the uncertainty. Learn more at pega.com slash AI. We don't assume, oh, we're public radio, so we should be a little bit boring.

2:13Yes, indeed. It's KCRW. There's like the broccoli and the chocolate cake. We try to lean to the chocolate cake. Well, and sometimes you're broccoli just with a really nice cheese on top or something like that, right? Yeah, exactly.

2:28The founder of KCRW, she was a person who really didn't care what other people thought of her. It's a superpower in making decisions. We fought all the time. I realized later that was her love language. which I would leave every day and go, oh, I'm going to get fired, you know. This is KCRW. Literally every other aspect of media is controlled by the new kind of almost oligarchs of the world. We're not here to make money, to sell your data, to get you to buy something. We're just giving you information and trying to make your life better. Hey, folks, Jeff Berman here. Before we start the show, I'm thrilled to welcome my friend Jamie Batmer, Chief Investment Officer of Creative Planning, one of the sponsors of our show.

3:11Creative Planning is one of the country's largest independent wealth management firms where a single team, advisors, tax specialists, estate planners, all work from one coordinated plan. Jamie, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you so much for having me. Jamie, when you meet a new client, founder, a business owner, what does their advisor setup usually look like? Maybe a few investment people, right? They have it spread out with a few firms. Then they have, you know, a tax person they've been working with or a tax team. And then an estate planning team they've been working with. And so what we've done is, you know, bring those all under one roof with the dedicated subject matter experts within each space.

3:51I have to imagine that there's also a set of hidden costs when you have advisors who don't really talk to each other. What do those costs look like that people may not even recognize? Well, it's just friction costs. You're not moving along as efficiently as you can be. If there's not clear communication between those entities, you're missing stuff. You're missing the closest thing to free money the markets will give you. Can I ask you to share a real-world example of a client who came to you after fragmented advice and counsel led to a costly mistake? We had a family that was domiciled at one point in Delaware, right, made total sense when it was set up over a decade ago.

4:36Now, as things have changed, they should be farther out west in Nevada. And for this particular entity, it was a nearly$70 million mistake. But that's the thing is that the person that did this for them, they didn't make the wrong decision in real time. They took care of it and then they left. The idea is constantly looking at it. That's where we can add value. This team is looking to analyze every element of their financial life and make an empirically optimized decision. And that gives people extraordinary peace of mind that they know they're going to have individuals that focus on this stuff all day long and not focus on trying to sell people bad stocks.

5:18What is your mission? Why are you guys doing this work? Focusing on what we can control, looking at everything, doing it right, not having a conflict of interest, and helping people, helping entities. You'll fulfill the dreams they want. You'll give to their family, give the charities. I mean, that's the most fantastic reward you can have. And that's the why behind it. I deeply appreciate how mission-driven you are in that. Thank you so much for being with us, Jamie. It's such a pleasure to talk with you. And now on to the show.

5:54This is Masters of Scale. I'm Jeff Berman, your host. And I am so excited to be in Los Angeles today with my new friend, Jennifer Farrow. Jennifer, I'm thrilled for you to be with us as you've been leading KCRW, a legendary public media institution, through unprecedented, complex times with grace and grit and heart. And we have so much to discuss. Welcome to Masters of Scale. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. How did you start your career coming out of college? Well, I think career is a really big word for what it was. I needed a job. So I worked for a criminal defense attorney during the kind of war on drugs and worked as a legal secretary and a paralegal.

6:36What was it like being a paralegal back in the early 90s and in that war on drugs era? I mean, it was it was a very, you know, big education on the way the world really works, especially for people who don't have money and who were doing what they felt they needed to do to survive and how they were just swept up in a lot of politics. As you know, and as our regular listeners know, I started my career as a public defender. And one of the most valuable lessons for me from my five years doing that work is how to fight when you are radically under-resourced. You're going up against one of the most powerful forces in the world, and you are so radically under-resourced that you just have to be scrappy.

7:21It's almost the best possible training for startup life. That's true, that's true. And also, you have to get over the fact that things aren't fair, which I think is really important. Like when you're raised a certain way, you look at the world a certain way, you're just like, but wait, that's not fair. So how did you make the jump from a paralegal to a local criminal defense lawyer to KCRW? It's not the obvious step. Yeah, I would listen to KCRW. I loved KCRW. I was like, wow, this is where smart people hang out. And I wanted to be where smart people were. And so I started volunteering at KCRW.

7:54And KCRW at that time had a very robust volunteer program. So a lot of things, a lot of jobs were done by volunteers, really devoted people. And then just being around people were so welcoming and kind and really committed to just good things. And I was like, this is where I want to be. I just quit and I started volunteering full time at KCRW. And I was like, something will happen. How did you transition from being a volunteer at KCRW to actually being on staff there? Okay, well, another kind of ridiculous story. So part of my doing odd jobs to make rent, I got hired by the general manager and the founder of KCRW to transcribe this radio show.

8:36And for our younger audience, there was no granola back then. We're not dealing with AI being able to transcribe in real time. Literally, you were doing the transcription. Yes, it was manual. But I had used my credit card and bought a laptop on Cash Advance. This was when Apple laptops were the first Apple laptop. And so when I went into Ruth Seymour's office, the founder, and I shared her this report I did, and she saw my laptop and she's like, what is that? And I'm like, oh, this is a laptop. She was so impressed with it. So anyway, we talked. I left her office and her assistant walked in and sat down and said, I'm moving to the Peace Corps.

9:13I'm going to Cameroon and I'm quitting. And so she said, oh, my God, I need an assistant. Go get that girl with the laptop. So she sent someone to run down after me. And she offered me a job right on the spot to be her assistant. And what did she say? Well, at first I said, I don't want to be an assistant. I don't want to be a secretary. I went to college. But then I thought, who am I kidding? I have no other prospects and I love this place. So I took the job. How long were you its assistant? Just two years because I'd had that same thing where I said to her, look, I didn't go to college to be an assistant.

9:46I have to go start a career. So I'm going to leave. And then she said, well, what if you stayed here? What would you do? And I said, oh, you need a number two because people were really afraid of her. I was not. So people would come and talk to me and I would kind of, you know, whisper to her, figure her out. And she's like, okay, yeah, you can do that. That's a new job in the legacy organization. How did it work? I mean, what ended up, I mean, all credit to her, RIP, but she not only built this really unusual entity, KCRW, but she also was so welcoming to me. So we fought all the time. That was kind of, I realized later, that was her love language.

10:27I would leave every day and go, oh, I'm going to get fired, you know. And then, but she liked that because people were, she liked people to tell the truth to her. She's so smart, big personality. People would cower from her. but I was too young to understand that I should be doing that to keep my job. So she would just keep me in on every decision. She would sit me in her office and tell me these stories. And sometimes I'd say like, this is my job is listening to her tell these tales. However, what I realize now is, you know, I may not have had that, you know, that phrase, like you don't have a seat at the table, but you're in the room.

10:59I was in the room for everything. And I started to learn how she made decisions and why. It was invaluable. How long did you do that? I think 16 years. That's a long time. Yeah. You strike me as someone who doesn't lack for ambition in a good way. I don't say that critically at all. Why was it comfortable doing that job for 16 years? It's such a unique space. It is the largest door opener to culture in Los Angeles. business, music, food, politics, policy, anything. If you're interested in anything, KCRW is a door opener for you to learn more about it. And so I'm addicted to that. I'm a really curious person.

11:45I love to learn things myself personally. And I also, it was a place where I could have a big effect. You know, I felt like I was able to make things happen. I think KCRW is just so singular. How big is KCRW now? How many employees do you have? We have about 140. What makes KCRW different from other public radio stations? Because you're right, I mean, whether it's going back to Jonathan Gold, the iconic Los Angeles food critic, or it's left, right and center. I mean, KCRW has made such a mark not just in LA, but nationally with the programs that it has created and produced and distributed. You know, I think it just comes from this notion that we don't put ourselves in any kind of box.

12:32We don't assume, oh, we're public radio, so we should be a little bit boring. And I think it's like a mindset. You know, I think when a lot of public radio shifted, I think I'm glad they did and I'm really supportive of it. But there's this real big focus on journalism with a capital J and being the local news source and kind of replacing the newspaper in a lot of towns, which, again, absolutely valuable and critical. But I think what happened in that transition is we forget about all the other parts of the newspaper that people used to read. And some of them are playing games or reading comics so they could laugh or finding out where movies or which movies to see and where to eat and things like that.

13:09that's the part that KCRW really embraces because we know that people want that. And so there's like the broccoli and the chocolate cake. We try to lean to the chocolate cake. Well, and sometimes you're broccoli just with a really nice cheese on top or something like that, right? Yeah, exactly. So much of this is touch and taste. What has made KCRW so good at being successful over and over and over again, particularly across categories, which is extremely rare for a media organization? to do. The thing that Ruth Seymour taught me was, you know, she was a person who really didn't care what other people thought of her, which is a very, it's like a superpower.

13:49It's also not so great sometimes, but it's a superpower in making decisions. And when it comes to, you know, talent and work product or artistic expression, it can be really hard to tell someone this isn't meeting the mark, you know? But I think having that feeling and that culture of knowing like, this is important and you have to make hard decisions sometimes. And you have to move on from things that didn't work out and try new things. So I think, you know, it's that kind of dedication to being really honest. Like, you know, we can all tell ourselves that like, well, this show's interesting because it's about the environment or whatever.

14:30But it's really kind of a bore. it's really, it's powerful to be able to say, this is boring. Yeah, yeah. When you started at KCRW, radio was radio. As the medium of radio has evolved to be radio plus podcasting, plus video, plus Lord knows what else. How have you adapted and how has KCRW adapted to meet the changing moment? Yeah, well, that's a big one. I mean, it's probably our biggest challenge ever. And so I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about federal funding and stuff like that, that being a challenge. But I think the biggest challenge is this audience shift. And so, like you said, when radio was radio, there was a finite number of, you know, stations and possibilities.

15:10And if you wanted to consume media, you had two choices, like five television stations and, you know, in L.A., maybe 80 radio stations. And then, you know, when you were in the car, that was your only media that was live and available to you and easy to use. And so now it's like, it's really about changing from the focus being on making the media to really building the community. And I think for us, because we are supported by members, so we do care about who's in our audience. We want people who will actually love us enough to support us. The focus now is really on what is it that we're doing that can build a community that will stay together and care about you enough to support you when there's so many choices.

16:00Okay, so let's go back. So 16 years as assistant GM to Ruth, what happens that you take the GM title? Well, Ruth Seymour retired. So that was the main thing. I had to apply and win the job. But she did something really powerful. She said, I am going to, I'm not going to sit on the board. I'm going to disappear because I want the next person to take over this place and have the same freedom that I had. That was what she gifted to me. So that was fantastic. I think a lot of times founders will stay on a board. She was like, no, I'm not going to do that. And she didn't call me. She just said, if you need me, call me, but I'm not going to call you.

16:43And it was a big, huge gift to me. What was the biggest thing that you changed from Ruth's era when you came into the leadership job? I was going to say I was a lot nicer. I think that may be the answer. Hey, folks, if you're enjoying this episode of Masters of Scale, then I would highly recommend you join us for the Masters of Scale Summit this October 20th to 22nd in San Francisco. Each year's summit features some of the most iconic names in business and technology and culture, sharing with us what it takes to lead in unprecedented times. And this year may be our strongest stage yet. Kara Swisher, Cloudflare's Matthew Prince, Netflix's Reed Hastings, Tubi's Anjali Sood, Replit's Amjad Massad, futurist Amy Webb, author Adam Grant, alongside our very own Reid Hoffman.

17:32Be in the room this year to hear what it means to lead with agency and build the future we want to see. Join us. Visit mastersofscale.com slash summit.

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19:25Painless and Proven, built for businesses scaling fast without the complexity that usually comes with it. From the makers of QuickBooks, learn more at intuit.com slash ERP. We live in an era of unprecedented, at least because of the means by which it can be communicated, misinformation and disinformation. We're dealing with propaganda spreading at a rate that the world has never seen before. How do you think about KCRW's role in countering that? Yeah, I think it's really important. And I think that, you know, so we've talked before about like the change in audience behavior and the fact that people have many other choices and radio is not a growth medium.

20:09It's a very valuable and powerful medium, but it's not where you're going to find or attract your new audience. But I think that's where KCRW's transition has been the most powerful is really understanding ourselves as this community resource, and not just for LA, but for all of the country. But the brand of public radio is one that you know that these are people committed to serving the community. That's it. We're not here to make money, to sell your data, to get you to buy something. We're just giving you information and trying to make your life better. and in a world that we live in where literally every other aspect of media is controlled by the new kind of almost oligarchs of the world it's powerful to have that and to know it exists and I think that what we watch is like you know listening behavior changing or habits changing so maybe people aren't with us every single day but those who know of us know they can completely and implicitly trust us.

21:11Having those things in the world is more critical than ever right now, because you just don't, where do you turn? You know, whatever channel that you are consuming media on, it can be manipulated or has been manipulated. Having, you know, public media in the country is critical for that, as a backstop, as a place that you can turn to find out what's real. Yeah. And you've got this weird paradox where on the one hand, you're labeled by some parties as quote unquote state media. And on the other hand, you're dealing with a massive federal funding battle, which I have to imagine has impacted you to some extent.

21:48How do you deal with that tension? Well, I mean, I think the great thing is that we were never state media. And I think when you look at the original Public Broadcasting Act that Johnson passed, this was for the good of the country. And the kind of the language that's in there is so powerful when you think about it in today's world that we're in, which is like to elevate voices that aren't heard, to be this resource for the country. I have a colleague who's no longer in public media, but he used to say, we need a public internet. There's public television, public radio, we need a public internet.

22:24And when he first said it, I was like, what are you talking about? The internet is public, but it's not public, right? It's controlled and owned and manipulated by others. And I do think that we need these spaces like public parks and public libraries where they are here for the good of the people. We still have that mentality 100 percent and we're probably more devoted to that than ever without federal funding. And what federal funding did was, you know, it's five percent of our budget. It was like 30 percent of a place like Marfa Public Radio in Marfa, Texas, which is a tiny community. But the radio signals cover 30 ,000 square miles and they reach people with literally no media and no cell service.

23:03And so why not have something that actually serves everyone? It's incredible. And so, you know, we're more devoted, like I said, than ever. And frankly, there's something freeing about not having the federal funding because you don't have to be in that conversation anymore, you know, because the charges about public media being liberal, Those are really old. And it was, you know, used to be focused on Big Bird, and then it got focused on NPR. But it really couldn't be more true. I mean, I think, you know, the notion of what liberal is, is ultimately being open and interested and curious about lots of different ideas.

23:45That is the kind of the opposite of the word conservative. So I think that's where public media has always been. but when you think about the contributions that it's made to America and society I mean I was a kid who grew up on Sesame Street I learned all kinds of things before I got to kindergarten how amazing to take a media that could make a you know turn children into little monsters but also can turn children into these completely educated interested you know little beings I mean it's powerful. So yeah, I think the federal funding thing, it's a relief to be out of the political football and spending time on the Hill and talking to Republicans and saying, you know that we represent your community and your voice gets on this channel and you're talking to your voters.

24:37And privately, they would say like, oh, I know it's really important to me. But publicly, they'd toe this line that said we were biased and things like that. Yeah, I mean, this idea that concepts such as inclusivity and kindness and fairness are radical leftist ideas that are being promulgated by this dangerous entity of public media is sort of insane. These are neither liberal nor conservative concepts. These are deeply rooted concepts across our society. Jen, a few years ago, you took on an additional challenge of chairing the NPR board of directors. You seem like you have a pretty full plate.

25:14Why did you decide to do that? Well, I was on the board for a number of years. And, you know, when you criticize something, you should just run it and do it yourself. So, no, anyway, I, you know, it was an opportunity to, I think, build cohesion in our public radio system at a time when we were under huge challenges. and I, you know, it's funny, inside our system, we think we're really different. Of course, we're not, right? People think NPR, public radio, they're interchangeable terms, KCRW, interchangeable, but yet individually, it can be like herding cats. I saw that what we were approaching was a big leadership change at NPR and increasing Republican attacks against our brand, our industry, everything.

26:06And so I was very interested in trying to build something that could lead, hopefully lead NPR and public radio to a better place. The federal funding cut is one thing. To your point, if it's 5 % of your budget and you have a large base and you can probably find a way to make up for that, you know, with some pain, but not too much difficulty. If you are Marfa, Texas, and you cover 30 ,000 square miles and It's 30 % of your budget. Boy, that sounds like a much tougher putt. What has happened across the member station universe since the federal funding cut? I mean, what we're seeing happen, first of all, there was a big fundraising effort outside, kind of adjacent to our industry that ended up creating this bridge fund that allowed a lot of stations two years of runway.

26:52So that was really huge. And a lot of big foundations nationally came in to support that. So we haven't seen the kind of market forces that we would have seen normally by the September of that one year where we lost the funding. But what we're starting to see is the large stations. There's probably like 12 to 15 stations that have budgets that are larger than$15 million. There's a lot of very tiny stations. But the larger ones are looking at regional leadership, stepping into both work with all the other, say, stations in their state to figure out how could they provide either back-end services or acquisitions or something like that, that allows us to have that same kind of public service coverage across the country, but takes away some of the expenses that maybe they don't have to spend.