Kara Swisher takes on big tech, from Apple to Nvidia

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1:45Friction is critical. And one of the things that Silicon Valley people all the time do is they're like, let's be frictionless. Let's be seamless. That's their favorite words. But actually, no. Friction is how you move forward, right? That's always the case, including in technology and innovation. AI is so frictionless. You live longer if you do things that are hard. for you than you do if you do things that are easy. And my fear, especially with young people, is you never have to try and therefore you atrophy, right, in so many ways. Make it hard. To me, that's where great things happen.

2:27That's Kara Swisher, journalist, author, host of the podcast On with Kara Swisher, as well as co-host of Pivot alongside Scott Galloway. I wanted to check in with Kara about the biggest stories in tech and beyond as 2025 winds down. She pointedly separates the lessons from the noise at NVIDIA, OpenAI, Apple, Google, Netflix, and more. It is a rich, full conversation. Kara starts out pretty matter-of-fact and then quickly turns sparky, whether we're talking about Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg. So let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

3:10I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Kara Swisher, journalist, author, and podcast host. Kara, great, as always, to get a chance to chat. Thank you, Bob. We've both been engaged in tech and the business world for quite a while. We've seen a lot of cycles and scandals and booms and busts. And even so, 2025 has felt to me like a nonstop roller coaster. Yeah, a little bit. Has it felt that way to you? No, no. I just think it's, I mean, there's just always been, tech has just become more involved in politics, I guess, probably is why. And it hadn't been before. There was just a new element that's been entered into it since Trump was inaugurated.

3:50And so you have nonstop seeing of these tech moguls in a way that's really pretty unattractive in a lot of ways, grasping and grabbing for power. Obviously, AI, which has been around for a while, has taken a quantum leap. So people are focused on that. Crypto has gotten a lot more attention since they got more power, you know, as they got more power and as the Trump family entered into that area. So there's sort of new technologies, although they're not that new, sort of becoming more important. And probably the massive spending on AI is probably the biggest story of this year. Although I would argue there are other things that are happening that are more important.

4:30Investment markets often don't like uncertainty. And there's a lot of talk about different kinds of uncertainty this year. And yet stocks have just, you know, marched upward. Yeah. You know, powered by a handful of these big tech names. Well, they're spending a lot of money. It feels like a round tripping. They're spending money and then the economy is doing better because they're spending money, but they don't have a business. It's just a cycle that is maybe not sustainable. You are worried about a bubble, an AI bubble? No, it's not a bubble necessarily because people are buying it. I think there's a lot of promise there.

5:03It's just, are we spending ahead of it? And then what are the implications? If they don't find enough consumer results eventually, that'll be a problem. But Amazon went on forever, right? You know, until it finally got a good business. The same thing with Google or others. And so, I mean, there'll be one or two big winners here, and we just don't know who they are. And, you know, it's something like NVIDIA. Yes, I think that's a bubble because I think they remind me of Cisco back in the day. Although they are raking in money. They are. So was Cisco. They have customers who are paying them, right?

5:33So was Cisco. So was Cisco. And then it wasn't. You know, I think ultimately everyone's going to make their own chips. You know, Apple's entering the picture of Google. or everybody's going to make their own chips and that's going to settle off. It's just this one company. It's very similar to Cisco. That to me is a, that company is unsustainable at the numbers they have. But, you know, it's as if there's only going to be one chip maker, as if. The end users of NVIDIA's chips, they're not making money, right? No, exactly. I mean, some of them are, some of them are. I mean, no one's making money.

6:06No, not in the AI space. They're spending money. And so some of them are making really interesting money. It's just not decent compared to what they're spending. And so the question is, if you're not, you know, it's sort of like how valuable is real estate in California during the gold rush? And it was, it just became, right? And so people have to get there and spend the money and waste the money in order to create California, right? So, you know, some people are going to be left on the sidelines and others aren't. That's, I mean, that's the natural order of things in the internet space. Usually there's two or three big winners.

6:41As I'm listening to you, like you have this tone that like, yeah, this is what happens in technology all the time. But like technology is a more feels like a more central part of the economy. It is a central part. It's always been. By the way, it's always been a central part since the first IBM's, the big IBM mainframes. But I mean, I think the I think what it is, is that they're a bigger part of the stock market. But it was before it was just wasn't into this extent. The last bubble, it certainly was. and it's just entered politics. I think that's what the issue is. And Trump has done such a bear hug of these companies that you notice it.

7:17And they, of course, you know, you can't help ignore Elon being part of the government and trying to cut it very badly, as it turned out. You know, just even last week with the head of Palantir, when's the last time we saw a defense person look like he was on drugs screaming at the New York Times on stage? I didn't say he was on drugs. It just looked like he's on drugs to a lot of people or very joyous person, I guess. But, you know, when's the last time you saw the CEO of Lockheed doing something like that? So these people just can't shut up is the problem. And so they have to appear on stage.

7:49They have to tweet. They've got to be, you know, if I see one more picture of Jensen Wong in a leather jacket, I'm going to exhaust my, like, shut the f*** up. Like, my whole prediction for this year is they need to shut the f*** up. All of them. They're like, and they're not that interesting except for they're rich, right? That kind of stuff. Or you see Sam Altman everywhere. You see, even poor Tim Cook has got to wander into the White House and hand him a gold statue or be at the inauguration. It's very performative. And so that's why they just don't seem to go away because of their proximity to Trump, who is, you know, a really coin operated president.

8:24I don't blame him. Of all of them, I don't blame him. In this case, why wouldn't he take advantage? They're just like throwing money at him to get what they want. He went from being sort of seeming like he was anti or somewhat anti-tech to now being just hand in glove. Why wouldn't he? I mean, I mean, he is a politician. You said just before that there are things that you think are more important or more interesting than AI that people aren't really talking about. What what are they? The uses of AI and the uses of quantum computing around health care is really interesting. Like a lot of the stuff that's happening with gene editing, CRISPR, and even GLP-1s, I think, are critically important to cost savings and health and longevity.

9:09You know, right now, AI is focused on the stupidest of things when there's all this really astonishing possibilities. I'm also really interested in all the electric vehicles and autonomous vehicle stuff. Take me down the road with electric vehicles. Like what is happening in China that people aren't paying attention to? Well, as Donald Trump says, these tiny cars are so cool. They're so cute. There's all, you know, like BYD and the stuff, the innovations. You know, go anywhere else in the world. You see them everywhere, right? I mean, this is what Tesla should have been, except for someone with a really problematic mommy-daddy problem and other problems.

9:50the shift of how cars are made and manufactured, and China is leading that revolution. They're going to really go jump ahead of us in terms of autonomy and the uses of it. I mean, there's some really great stuff going on here with Waymo and things like that, which I love. I have to say, I've been a big fan of that technology for a long time. But it's so scattered that I just think in China or anywhere else you go across the world and you see these very quickly made, very easily made cars that are much more efficient, you could see how they could change the way people move around the globe. And so you can still have your big cars.

10:30But I mean, I think in cities, you know, how to innovate in cities is really an interesting opportunity for... Whether you're talking about the way you talk about electric cars or talking about CRISPR, like you're drawn to the things that are more disruptive about the way our world can be, right? Yes, exactly. I mean, I've spent a lot of time with Jennifer Doudna, not just her, but all these people that are working on gene editing and, you know, the solving of cancer. I mean, think about like the money we would save with people or same thing with GLP-1s. The diabetic industrial complex is a multi-trillion dollar complex that we could just, you know, we talk about balancing the budget like health care is like just it's either military or health care.

11:11That's really it. If you could make people healthier and live better and less sick, like it's an astonishing savings. You're not as skeptical about some of the applications of whatever GLP-1s then, you know, or CRISPR then? No, well, yes, of course, it's got to be regulated correctly. But I mean, it's a real opportunity for people not to die of things they don't need to die of. This is the first year longevity has gone down worldwide. why it's largely due to Elon, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of how we're killing people across the globe with our pulling back. But because of the pullback on USAID.

11:48But I think that there's all these opportunities to increase the health span of people and not spending everybody like we live in a world of sick care. Right. And so if not health care, it's sick care. Another area I'm really interested in is building, like how we build things and materials. I think we don't spend enough time thinking about how much we, if you think about it, the way we build housing is artisanal, like, you know, drywall, what? Like there's so many really interesting ways you can apply AI in particular or machine learning to how you build homes. And, you know, one of the biggest problems that we have is we don't have enough homes for people.

12:25And that leads to all manner of, you know, mental illness and insecurity, people feeling unsafe and societal unrest and everything else. You know, if I was the next presidential candidate, which I'm not going to be, I'd say$25 minimum wage, everybody gets GLPs and 8 million houses. Like, everyone just has this collective sigh of f***ing relief. They're not like, like on this ridiculous, just, and then everybody, the more people are in the economy, the better. How worried are you about, about AI-fueled layoffs? We actually have a population decline going on, which is interesting. Like, it's, it's actually a much more complex issue.

13:05I don't, I think like, look, like I was just reading a lot about the, I thought Netflix was going to get Warner. Now this is a relatively small business now. Entertainment is not as big as it used to be, right? It's not. So you thought from the beginning, Netflix was going to take it. I just thought that Ellison's overplayed their hand being friends with Trump because Trump likes a winner. And like, right, the other night, last night he said, oh, Ted Sorrento's is fantastic. Everyone's like, what? I'm like, of course he did. Why would he be with a loser? There's a story about how everyone in Hollywood hates Netflix.

13:35That may be, like, absolutely, they're very powerful. But, like, as if they blame Netflix for the state they're in, I find that fascinating. Because, like, they're in the state they're in because they didn't modernize, because they didn't lean into tech, because they didn't, they had these ridiculous, you know, ways they did their business. The economy of Hollywood is so insane, like, in terms of costs and everything else. They didn't listen to consumers. And then they're blaming Netflix. for having a product consumers like. Like, I'm sorry. I just, they're mad that they changed the economics.

14:10Too f***ing bad. Guess what? And if AI does that again to them or to any other industry, it's sort of too f***ing bad? No, I think it's incumbent on our country, our citizens and our government to figure out what the shift is then. What do people then do? Because there are lots of, AI is not going to replace everything. It's going to replace rote work first, right? which a lot of information work is. So we were having people just like do things that aren't creative. I mean, I think there's a lot of creative jobs available. I think you can be very creative in terms of applying AI with new ways to work.

14:48Or let's have UBI. Like let's be creative of how we want to figure out how humans interact with this stuff rather than either be on the doom scale or the it's going to solve everything scale. Because it's not. Like, think about mechanized farming. Like, everybody was a farmer. Farmers are entrepreneurs, if you really think about it. Yeah. Were. And mechanized, it just came in. Do you want to go back to the plow? I doubt it. Like, it's just not going to happen. Mechanized farming, then we had manufacturing, and then now manufacturing has gotten mechanized. I'm more interested, by the way, in robotics than I am.

15:26I think the robotics with AI is sort of a really interesting, not what Elon's doing, the optimist. Nobody wants one of those people wandering around. Robots don't have to look like people. I don't know why there's that obsession with it. Robots can look like, Amazon bought a company, Kiva, many years ago that I was really paying attention to. It moved around boxes, but did it in this using AI and it knew where things should go. And that to me was like, okay, that's going to replace people. I went to this Amazon warehouse 10 years ago, and as I was watching it, I thought, oh, goodness sake. And they were there to show me how much they like people.

16:00I'm like, there's not going to be any people here. Like, why? Why should people put things in boxes? Like, I don't get it. Like, when a robot could do it. And they're like, we love people. I'm like, yeah, except when it's cheaper to have the robots do it. It just wasn't cheaper at the time. Now it is, of course. So I'm just like, what can we do creatively, including our public officials and all of us, to figure out where jobs are? But let me just tell you, if companies find a way to save costs, they're going to save. I'm sorry. Everyone's like, can you believe they're doing layoffs? I'm like, absolutely, I can believe it.

16:32I wouldn't do it, but they're going to. I mean, like a law firm doesn't need this many people to do stuff that AI or whatever version of this does. Why would you? They just wouldn't. They did in the last 10, 26 turns that we had in our economy. I don't know why you think they're going to do it here. You mentioned Elon Musk a couple of times. I mean, he was in the hot center of the action early in the year. He got himself crossways with the White House. Now he's got a trillion dollar pay package. Well, maybe if he makes it. I don't think he's going to make it, but OK, sure. Why not? Like, who cares?

17:08Like, if he makes that, if he makes it that valuable, he should get it. Like, that's how I feel. But he's not going to. But it has all kinds of hooks. They'll move the goalposts for him because that's the most ridiculous, feckless board in history. But he has to do a certain amount of things in order to get it. He's got to get the valuation up. And if he manages somehow to get the valuation up, I guess he does deserve it, right? If he gets it to$8 trillion. I don't know. I mean, I start to think it's just an obscene amount of money. Why not? I get it. But if he moves something from whatever,$1 trillion to$8 trillion, I guess he deserves it.

17:40If he's the one that does it, sure, why not? I feel like that in some ways, though, our system has become sort of like there's too much going to these folks at the top. Like he's doing all the work. You think I don't agree with that? I don't know. It's up to these companies that do it. It's up to these. I don't really, you know, if they want to do that and that's how they want to run their business, I don't feel like, what are we going to tell them? No, it's their business. And they want to, by the way, they're running it into the ground. It's about to get shorted big time, I think, again. Everyone's tried to short.

18:09I think the meme stock of Tesla is nearly run its course and you're going to see it being valued at what it actually is worth, which is less and less every hour, essentially. And so eventually, you know, but these meme stocks, they are what they are. Like, what are you going to do? You can't stop people from being stupid. You can't stop stupid. Like I've always noticed my I used the expression. I like this. You know, intelligence has its limitations, but stupidity is infinite. it. I'm curious how you how you rate Mark Zuckerberg's year. I mean, he's cozy up to Trump. Whatever. He was never nice.

18:45Let's just be clear. He was never. I'm not even slightly surprised that he cozied up to Trump. He doesn't like people. So that's the way that goes. You know, he spent all this money on Meta. Like I've never seen someone who made so many mistakes. Like he's done a lot. Listen, he's done an astonishing job with that company from from a from an ad point of view. The products are quite good. Instagram threads is terrific. Like, he makes some good products, right? But, like, here's someone who spent 75, what is it, billion? On doing his stupid metaverse, which both Scott Galloway and I were like, this is a waste of money.

19:20But he gets to spend it and then declare victory, even though it's a defeat, and then move on. You know, which is sort of like, he gets to make mistakes on an awesome scale. I wish I could make mistakes. To his credit, when he sees his mistakes or when he misses something, he goes to the new area. He does. But I'm just saying, you know, if I made a mistake like that, I'm not going to be lauded for spending$75 billion on a stupid thing. It's just all it said to me is there was no one around him that said, are you kidding, bro? Like, what are you doing? Like, he doesn't. When you use this phrase founder worship, like, is this what you're talking about?

19:57No one calls bullshit on this? Yes, it's idolatry is the word we use, is idolatry of innovators. Like everything he does, every shit he makes is golden. No, no, no. Like some of them are. Some of them are really cool. But he's starting from a very, you know, successful area. I don't think he's going to be as successful in AI as people think. I realize that even by bringing this up with you, I'm falling into the trap of, you know, founder worship just by asking these questions. Well, yes, I think these are remarkable people in many ways, but not that remarkable. I don't, again, I don't want to listen to everything he has to say, but I seem to be forced to.

20:30You know, I also blame the media for that, too, is the like the idolatry of innovators. They can do no wrong. I don't think that's very I mean, it's sort of like raising a bunch of sugar addicted children like they can know my child is so perfect, but they're not like whatever. Kara has strong convictions about Musk and Zuckerberg, but her critique of idolatry, it doesn't come from nowhere. She's been holding sugar rush CEOs accountable through a lot of shifts. So what's her take on Google versus OpenAI? And why does she think both Tim Cook and Bob Iger should move on as CEOs? We'll talk about that and more after the break.

21:11Stay with us.

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23:17IBM helps you turn AI into more than potential. It helps you turn it into smarter ways of working and ultimately scaling. Let's create smarter business, IBM. Before the break, journalist and podcast host Kara Swisher gave her clear-eyed view on tech execs' relationship with Trump, Elon Musk's trillion-dollar pay package, and Mark Zuckerberg's, quote, stupid metaverse. Now she talks about the battle between Google and open AI, why Tim Cook should move on as Apple CEO, and Hollywood's unfolding sagas from Disney to Netflix. Plus, Kara's unexpected advice on the most important trends to watch in 2026.