Rapid Response: Bracing for a possible TikTok ban, w/fitness entrepreneur Cassey Ho

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1:27I know you also need to take that same energy to Instagram reels, to YouTube shorts. Like it's there. Already, just with the algorithm changing every week, there are some times when I am on TikTok and my videos will get tons of crazy views, like 25 million views so that, you know, I get 600 ,000 clicks over to a product and sell out within like a few hours. And then there was a time when I posted a video and I remember that video getting literally 12 views. Now, this is on 3.5 million followers. And I was like, what's going on? Hi, everyone. Bob Safian here. That's Cassie Ho, an entrepreneur with 17 million social media followers.

2:09She runs a pair of brands, Blogilates and PopFlex that revolve around workout videos and workout gear. I wanted to talk to a business person in the trenches with TikTok as the U.S. government considers banning the app. Cassie's social media footprint goes back to 2009, and so she's navigated through multiple shifts, the rise of new platforms, changing algorithms. She describes TikTok's plight as just the latest twist in an ever-changing environment. Her experiences and perspective provide a window inside a core part of the economy that's essential for every business to understand. This is Rapid Response.

3:01I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Cassie Ho, the founder, CEO, and lead designer of workout brands, Blogilates and Popflex. It's great to have you with us here. Thanks for having me. You've built a terrific business using social media platforms as fuel. YouTube, initially now masses of followers everywhere. Do you think of yourself as an influencer? Like what does that word mean to you? To be completely honest, the moment the word influencer came to be, I was very turned off by it because it sounds like such a vapid term. Like what are you influencing? It doesn't really give much. So I prefer to call myself an entrepreneur, nor a content creator.

3:48But yeah, I just, I don't like the word influencer. Now to explain to some people what I do in like one word, like that kind of says it, but it doesn't encapsulate everything that I do. No, that creator label seems to be more what folks are like you are gravitating to. So I want to start by asking you about TikTok. DC folks right now are making noise about banning the platform, even though millions of users are devoted to it. How have you thought about and use TikTok in your business? So TikTok is one of the platforms that I post on. I post on TikTok, IG, YouTube Shorts. I create design videos and I take my followers kind of through the design journey of like, here's a problem.

4:34I need to solve it. And here is how I did that. And by the end of the 60 second video, you see the product that I ended up with. Now these things take, you know, anywhere between 12 months to a couple years of development, all compressed into a 60-second video. And a lot of times these videos go super viral on certain platforms, sometimes on all three platforms. And so that's how I use the platforms to market my products. So when it comes to the TikTok ban, my eggs aren't all in one basket. Of course, it's going to be sad to possibly lose one of them, but I don't know what's going to actually happen.

5:13Yeah, I know. I mean, is it frustrating? Because, I mean, you spend some effort, some time to build up a following on that platform, and you've got a large one, right? Yeah, there's, I think there's like 3.5 million just on that one. Yeah, that's a hefty group of people, potential customers, you know, and that might just go away. I mean, to be completely honest, the whole social media game has been, I just need to play the new game with the changing rules and you don't know what the game is. And already just with the algorithm changing every week, there are some times when I am on TikTok and my videos will get tons of crazy views, like 25 million views so that, you know, I get 600 ,000 clicks over to a product and sell it within like a few hours.

6:04And then there was a time when I posted a video that, and I spent like nine to 10 hours editing, voiceover, writing, like all of these things, filming. And you put up this video that you put so much work into. And I remember that video getting literally 12 views. Now this is on 3.5 million followers. And I was like, what's going on? So I reached out to TikTok and they're like, oh, well, pretty much maybe you should just make better content. I'm just like, no, no, no, this is something else. And so this has actually happened like a few different times and I don't know what it is. I'll have to delete the video, put it up again.

6:39So like these glitches have already honestly felt like what a TikTok ban would have felt like. And I actually even went to the Reddit forums and kind of was like, why is this video getting 12 views? In the Reddit forum, it said, do not say YouTube, Instagram, or anything in your videos, or you'll get shadow ban. And like the crazy thing is I took off my video, removed YouTube and wrote YT and that video ended up going viral. So there is something going on that is fishy and weird and I never know what the new rules are. Whatever happens is going to happen and we're going to have to deal with it.

7:18But that way also if you're posting the same thing on multiple platforms, you don't necessarily know which one sort of led to more of your business, right? I mean, obviously, you'll know how many views you got, but not necessarily that it drove more activity. Or can you tell? You can, actually. You can break it down by platform. And I actually can tell that the conversion rate is actually higher on Instagram Reels compared to TikTok. When TikTok goes viral, it can go crazy, but you can't rely on it. Because, right, you're going to get the 12 views and get the 25 million views or whatever. You maybe land somewhere in between with like 50K and you barely get any sales.

7:59So I would say Instagram Reels probably within the past year has been a lot more consistent. And right now, doing better for me than TikTok. But you're not necessarily sure why all the time. You're just having to jump and experiment at different times. And it's incredibly frustrating. and I have to be so transparent in saying that it plays with me emotionally as well because I'm someone who thinks that I can put in a lot of hard work and get the reward out of it, right? Like get the sales or get the views. But sometimes with the algorithm changing, you don't know why your video just isn't doing well.

8:39And for my personality type, which is like, I am a super perfectionist, it really affects my self-worth. And I actually talk to a lot of creators about this. and there are times that we go through, you know, this social media career and there are certain weeks throughout the year when the algorithm is doing bad for everyone and everyone's just really sad. And we all think it's going to be the end of our career and we're going to be irrelevant. So these are very normal conversations that happen, I think a couple or a few times a year, but then the algorithm changes and then you're back to normal.

9:12And it's just, it's a game. And you're not worried that if TikTok went away that you'd be irrelevant because there are enough other options for you to interact with folks through? I know TikTok has been really fun. I know we've been able to grow. And so for some people have been able to like really thrive their businesses on TikTok, but you also need to take that same energy to Instagram Reels, to YouTube Shorts. Like it's there, like should something happen to TikTok, post that same video. You mentioned this, you started as a content provider on YouTube, workout videos on YouTube, and you expanded into products.

9:49Why? Like, is that a better business than just media? So I think I'm a lot different than many content creators because that was never the plan. And the plan for me as a kid is that I always wanted to be a fashion designer. I'm talking about I carried around a sketchbook when I was six years old and would draw all the time. Then I ended up designing dresses for prom for my friends and making dresses for my Barbies. And so it was always there. Now, I started on YouTube in 2009 as a way to connect with my real-life Pilates students. And the video was only supposed to be for 40 people. I was moving cross-country.

10:24And so they're like, who else is going to teach this format to us? I was teaching pop Pilates, which is Pilates with pop music. Nobody was doing that at the time where I was in LA. And so I made that video just for them. And then the next thing I saw was that there were thousands of views and hundreds of comments of people that were not my students asking for, well, do an arm version, do an ab version, do a butt version. And so that is how Blogilati started, like as a fitness YouTube channel. And in the background, I had always been making things. I was designing yoga bags. I did this water bottle that had a timestamp on it.

11:00And one month we sold like 30 ,000 units of it. So it was always there, but it wasn't until like 2016 when I was able to launch PopFlex, which is our D2C, higher-end activewear brand, when I really got to exercise what I always wanted to do in fashion design. But yeah, it's been a complete evolution from when I first started. And I'm curious, so you had Blagolates as a brand, and you chose to launch a second brand. Why did you feel like you needed a second brand? Why did you keep the first one when you were making that transition? I didn't want to wear my own screen name on my clothes. That's just to me thing.

11:41I think most people would have just kept it. But it was a great decision because Popflex now is our more, I wouldn't say high, high end, but higher end brand when compared to Blogilates, which you can now find at Target. So it's more of an approachable price point. And then Popflex is where I just like go crazy with innovation and quality fabrics and just like designing to my heart's content. So let me ask you, how did you get connected to Target? Like, How did that happen? My husband and I were on vacation in Thailand and we get a call from our licensing agent. And they're like, we have this opportunity, something, something Target.

12:19And I was like, what, what? Like how? And we actually got on the call in Thailand to talk more about this. And then as soon as we got back to the States, we took a red eye all the way over to near the Target headquarters. And we had a meeting and presented to the buyer. And it was a tough meeting. I didn't know if they liked it or not, but eventually we got the purchase order. But it was a test at first. We made some products and they were going to test us for four to six weeks, but everything sold out within like two weeks. It went absolutely wild. And so that's how that relationship started.

12:55And because it's been quite successful, we're still there and it's still a dream to walk into Target and see that. For those listening to this whose brands haven't been built on social platforms, what do you think a lot of brands and businesses miss when they're trying to engage? Because it can often seem like just a crowded, noisy space, and I think that scares some folks away. Yeah, I think what makes a brand really special, especially these days, is having a face so you can connect to, a humanness. Yeah, I think marketing has really changed over the past few years. And people love the real.

13:35They love the raw. They love seeing real customer bodies on the clothes. And they really just want you in there talking with them. I think talking about the journey of building the brand, building the business, showing yourself shipping the packages, right? Like these are things people want to see that's real, like that it's coming from a human. I think the more humanness you can bring into the brand, the better. and also talking about your failures as well. Like sometimes I'll put up videos showing like what I call my bad samples, designs that died, like things that just didn't make it through because it was so horrendous and I had to give up.

14:11And that's fun too, because you've really got to show all the parts of yourself if you really want that honest and raw relationship with your audience. Raw and honest. It's an imperative that's increasingly embraced across the business landscape. and it seems likely to persist whether TikTok stays or goes. After the break, Cassie shares how she competes for followers against other brands, her battles with a toxic situation that forced her to remake her team, and more. We'll be right back. Real leaders don't back down when the stakes are high. They innovate, they push forward, and then they take the stage at the Masters of Scale Summit.

14:54Join us in San Francisco, October 7th to 9th, to hear from the CEO of the New York Times, scientists using cutting-edge technology to find cures, the leader of crypto powerhouse Coinbase, a retired four-star general, and many, many more. Apply now at mastersofscale.com slash apply25. That's mastersofscale.com slash apply25. If you're ready to take your startup from idea to impact, then AWS is your launchpad. From data storage to machine learning to secure app hosting, AWS gives you the tech trusted by the world's fastest scaling startups. And here's the best part. Join AWS Activate today and you could score up to$100 ,000 in AWS credits tailored to your stage and network.

15:44Go to aws.amazon.com slash activate and start building. Expanding your business in the U.S. can feel like a maze. Every state has its own payroll, benefits, and compliance rules, which can pull your focus away from growth. That's why founders use Deal. Deal is the professional employer organization, or PEO, that gives you a dedicated HR expert plus Fortune 500 level benefits for your team. The National Association of PEOs says businesses can grow twice as fast if they use one. So if you're scaling, make it simple with Deal. Go to deel.com slash MOS and get up to three months free. Before the break, we heard social media entrepreneur and designer Cassie Ho talk about the pros and cons of TikTok and how she built an audience of 17 million social followers.

16:40Now she talks about the ruthless competition among digital brands, balancing product vision with audience feedback, what it's like to work alongside her husband, and more. Let's jump back in. Cassie, social media has made it easier for someone like you to build a business, but social also makes it easier for new brands to come along, too. How do you think about the competitive landscape? Back during pandemic times, all of these athleisure brands were popping up. Everyone was blowing up because at that time, everybody was working out at home. And I remember telling my husband, and I keep referencing him because he's also the COO of our company, and we talk about work all the time.

17:21It just never stops. But I was like, there is going to be a day when we all cannot exist. You can't have this many activewear brands if you're not selling something different. We've seen brands already start to die out. And I'm not just talking about the Instagram ones, like when Beyonce's Ivy Park had to shut down. Like, I'm talking about big brands with big financial backing. And so in order to stand out of the market, you really need to be doing something different. That's why I don't design anything unless I'm making a difference with the design. Do you know what gave you the confidence to sort of quit your day job and do Blogilates full-time?

18:00Like, is there a story around that about how you made that decision? So in 2009, I put up my first YouTube video and I was never meant to be anything. There was no like ad campaigns or making any money off of that. It was just really for connection, right? Okay. So then I get my first job on the East Coast. I'm getting into fashion buying and I absolutely hate my job. But during this time, I actually was designing a yoga bag for myself. I bring it to class and my students are like, what's that? Like, I want one of those. And so I made some and ended up putting it on like a tiny little website that I made by myself.

18:36And then I also shipped out three, three bags to like Women's Health, Shape Magazine, Fitness Magazine. And then one day my sister texts me a picture and she's like, is that your bag in Shape Magazine? And I was like, excuse me, what? So I run out to the nearest Target during lunch and I flip through the Shape magazine and I'm like, oh my God, like this is a sign, right? I'm hating my job and my bag that I designed just made it into a national magazine. I took that as a sign that, hey, you can do this. And so what I did was I ended up quitting my job probably within like the next couple of weeks.

19:16And then I bought a ticket to China on a Friday and I left on Sunday because I said, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to go hard. So I went to China to go to the Canton Fair to find a manufacturer. And I know I look Chinese, Chinese-Vietnamese, that's what I actually am, but I don't actually speak Chinese. And so I had to get an interpreter and like really figure things out. I was probably like 22 or something. I just went for it. And that was the moment that I decided to make designing my real, real thing. Now, in terms of content creation, because that's a different story, right? the moment that I knew that there was something more here actually does lead back to products.

19:57So this is probably around 2011 or something like that. And the YouTube channel was growing a lot. I might've been around like, I don't know, maybe 200 ,000, 100. I definitely wasn't even at a million yet. So anyway, the fans on Facebook were like, Cassie, can you make a shirt? Something that says Blogilates. That was the moment I realized, oh my gosh, okay, Blogilates is now a brand and And it sold out within like minutes. It was crazy. As your business has grown, what's the biggest challenge? What's the biggest struggle? Yeah, I mean, the biggest struggles will always be finding the right people to support your growth.

20:39My mistake back in, you know, the, what was it? Like the 20s, 16, 17, 18s when I was young and trying to figure out how to be a manager. I was hiring people mostly for their skill and their talent and not thinking about the way we could really work together and communicate. And so there was a lot of bad stuff that went down there. And when I say bad stuff, I just mean like a lack of appreciation. I would walk into the office with my body like actually shaking. My breathing was abnormal. My heartbeat was abnormal. It just wasn't the right people. And when you're not around the right people, they suck the energy out of you and you feel like you're not capable of anything.

21:22And in 2018, I almost wanted to quit everything. And there's something magical that happens when you're really at that breaking point, but you just try one more time really hard and it makes you so much stronger. Anyway, some people left and some people got let go. I mean, that's what it is. And look, it's like any relationship, right? If it's not working out, it's not working out. And we just need to end this chapter and we both need a fresh start. A lot of businesses start with co-founders, not necessarily spouses. What should people think about if they're considering sort of blurring the lines between their business life and their personal life the way you've chosen to do it?

22:04I am very fortunate that Sam and I are both good at different things, very different things, and bad at very different things. So there is this natural divide between who's going to do what. I'm more of the creative, the visionary, the design side, the marketing. And Sam loves numbers. He loves analytics and all that kind of stuff. And because of that, when we do get in any fights, we have to remember whose arena this is. And we let that person lead. And you try not to bring it home? Or is it just home all the time? Oh, it's home all the time because we're remote. So we work from home and like, you know, we'll, we'll eat lunch or dinner and still talk about what we, what happened at work.

22:47There was a time when we were like, okay, definitely no talking about work after a certain time, but it just felt so unnatural. And anyway, this, this is the season that we're in the season of growth. And in order to keep that growth, like, you know, sustained, I guess we're just working on the time. Anyway, what else would we be doing if we're not working? Well, I guess, I guess we could go on that vacation. Well, I hope you do that too. Cassie, this was great. Thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Bob. This was fun. What I take away from listening to Cassie is how much the Wild West nature of social-based businesses reflects heightened competition everywhere.

23:27Social media has upended traditional customer engagement, but then social media itself has been upended over and over and over by Instagram, by Snapchat, by TikTok, and so on. TikTok's fate from here is a geopolitical one at this point. Even for someone with three and a half million followers there, looking at that audience as a defining asset is risky. The overarching lesson is that while a platform can be super impactful in accelerating a business, becoming reliant on one can make you vulnerable. Take the good, avoid the bad, and stay on your toes. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. Meet Nicole Nicholas, Capital One business customer and co-owner of Ansett Uncles, a plant-based restaurant and community space in Brooklyn, New York, that got its start from a need for unity.

24:19The inspiration, it was born from the desire to create a space that felt like home, where we can connect community culture, good food, and come together with family and friends. That's how we birthed aunts and uncles. Nicole and her husband, Mike, were fulfilling their dream of bringing people together out of their home kitchen. But they soon learned that the demand for community was greater than they knew. It became overwhelming and we were like, we need home, but not in our actual home. We realized that there was also a need in our community for something bigger in our neighborhood. So we had to find a place.

24:50Moving from a home operation into a storefront was a huge next step. But Nicole and Mike were able to take it on with the help of Capital One Business. It's not for the weak. As a small business, finding resources is super important because that's the way you'll be able to manage and scale. We would have never done that without having Capital One to be able to help us along the way. The cashback rewards are very helpful. You know, it just gave us that runway to be able to breathe a little bit. Then you get to focus on the cooking of the food and making the experience great. To learn more, go to CapitalOne.com slash business cards.

25:28Rapid Response is a Wait What original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Trow. The production team includes Chris Gauthier, Alex Morris, Masha Makutonina, and Brandon Klein. Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli. Original music by Eduardo Rivera and Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Lital Mollad. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our email newsletter.