Reid Hoffman on AI ‘Superagency’

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1:27eight days of the week, because that then gives me a much better health outcome. And so the society that you experience in this kind of super agency is when many people get the same superpowers, you know, all together, and we're all benefiting from our own and from others.

1:52That's Reid Hoffman, the co-founder of LinkedIn and founding host of Masters of Scale. Well, Reid is always instructive to talk with, especially about AI, which he has ardently championed as a founder, as a Microsoft board member, and as an author. He's just released a new book called Super Agency about the fast evolving AI era. Today, we dig into it. So let's get started. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

2:28I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Reid Hoffman, co-founder of LinkedIn, partner at Greylock, founding host of Masters of Scale. Reid, great to see you. Great to see you as always. So you have a new book out today called Super Agency with co-author Greg Beato. Some people have called the book a surprisingly positive take on AI and on humanity. Now, I think the The surprise is less about you being optimistic than about the topic, that there's so much skepticism right now about the future of both AI and of humanity. Can you start first by defining the word agency, regular old agency, and then sort of what super agency is beyond that?

3:10So agency is our ability to kind of express ourselves in the world, to make choices, to configure our environment, to say, you know, this is kind of what I want to have happen. to me, to my environment around me. And obviously nobody has infinite agency, but we all have some agency and we aspire to that as part of what we do. AI, like other kind of general purpose technologies that have come before, gives us superpowers. And superpowers like, you know, car give you superpower for mobility. You know, the phone give you superpowers for connectivity and information. And AI gives you superpowers for kind of the entire world of kind of information navigation, decisioning, et cetera.

3:53And what super agency is, is not just when you as an individual get the superpower, but when you and many of the people around you, when millions of people throughout society also get that superpower. Because just as a car doesn't, you know, transforms your mobility, your ability to go somewhere, when other people's mobility are similarly transformed, like a doctor can come to a house call, a friend can come visit, And so the society that you experience in this kind of super agency is when many people get the same superpowers and we're all benefiting from our own and from others. I mean, the fears around AI, I guess, are that AI will eventually limit human control.

4:37And when you're talking about super agency, you're sort of positing the opposite, that we're going to have more control. Well, it's actually different, but more in some important ways. These technological transformations of agency never are only additive. They're mostly additive. Like the car is broadly additive. But of course then, you know, if your agency was previously that you were a driver of a horse carriage, you know, that agency changes. Like, you know, when you have a phone, you can reach out to other people, but other people can also reach out to you so you're available. So agency kind of transforms in these cases.

5:11and you can already see it if you start playing with these agents that you can say hey i can actually now do things and accomplish things that i couldn't accomplish before and that unlocks my ability to learn things my ability to communicate things my ability to do things faster in more interesting ways and so that's part of the reason why it's really important that we actually play with these technologies we engage with them we do serious things with them we do what i'm in the book i call iterative deployment and i think that's what is so important for us all engaging on this path heading towards superagency.

5:45You talk about two different kinds of superagency or two different tracks in some ways. One is where AI helps me complete tasks that otherwise would be hard for me to do alone. And the other is where AI does things for me, without me. You might say, when you're getting into an Uber, is this a gain of agency or a loss of agency? because you say, well, you're not driving anymore. But of course, because you're choosing it and because you're engaging in it, actually you gain an agency because you didn't actually have to have the car there. You could have drunk one or two cocktails too many and you still have the mobility.

6:23So the mindset is important because if you kind of said, I am getting an Uber because I hate it and because I've got a stranger who's driving me to some other different place and I don't really want to be doing it, it's equivalent of like, you know, I'm being carted off to jail, then of course you're going to have this enormous, you know, perception and decrease in agency. But like, if you adopt it with the right mindset and kind of say, hey, this is something that I am seeking to do, I'm trying to do, then obviously you begin going from negative to positive to curious. Think about the first time you're on a bike, right?

6:59You're kind of terrified of it. You're like, do I really need to be learning this. You know, you got training wheels on. But once you begin to learn it, you go, ah, I now have increased mobility. I can have new exercise. I can get new experiences. And that's the kind of thing of leaning into that agency is, I think, really important as we adopt new technologies. Yeah. And I guess trusting that agency. I mean, your example about the Uber driver, it makes me think about, like, I'm giving agency over to the driver, but the driver is probably giving agency over to a maps app that is telling them the best way to get to my destination, right?

7:34And they're trusting the map and I'm trusting that they're trusting the map. And all those things sort of lay on top of each other. Yeah. And actually, I wouldn't say giving over agency because you always have some agency in that choice and ongoing, but like you're utilizing the agency, you're engaging the agency. Well, I'm offloading some mental load from myself, right? And allowing to spend my time doing something that I feel like is more valuable. Yeah, exactly. One of the very earliest things when I was saying, why do we want autonomous vehicles? It's drinking and driving goes from a horrific act of negligent or deliberate evil to something that might be actually quite relaxing and enjoyable.

8:16You've been preaching about the potential of AI for some time. You wrote a book with Chad GPT to demonstrate the potential. You've made digital twins of yourself to try demystifying it. Not everyone is convinced. What do you feel like you have to sort of fight most in getting people over this? And what prompted you to do the book now as a way to try to make that change? Well, the book is kind of a natural extension from Impromptu. So Impromptu, first book on AI, co-written with AI, trying to show how it's amplification intelligence and how you could use it in these positive cases. My biggest hope and persuasion is that people who are AI fearful or AI skeptical may begin to add some AI curiosity, kind of say, hey, look, I should try to play with this.

9:05I should try to see this. And part of what super agency is about is to say, look, it doesn't just matter for yourself, But as other people get this exposure to this, that the other people's getting exposure will also be good for your life. So for example, if you think about the fact that, like, I have a smartphone, I have a medical assistant that is, you know, good or better than the average doctor, would you rather have a radiologist read your x-ray scan or would you rather have a radiologist with an AI read your x-ray scan? And the answer is radiologists with an AI every day of the week, eight days of the week, because that then gives me a much better health outcome.

9:44So it's not just me and my superpowers, but other people getting the superpowers also help me. Even if I'm not engaging quite the way you would like me to most, I'm still going to get some of the benefit of this. It's going to be part of cultural changes. Yeah, and I think that's ultimately how people get to adopting and kind of adapting their lifestyle to these new technologies because they begin to see, oh, actually, in fact, This is a new, very good thing. And as opposed to like, for example, when cars were first introduced, they were considered to be so dangerous that I had to have a person walking in front of them waving an orange flag.

10:21Now, I think we got rid of that regulation very quickly. And I was like, OK, well, they're dangerous. But OK, can we contain and shape the danger in ways that is small relative to this massive benefit of superagency and mobility? You know, when I think about you, Reid, it's like you have these different slices of audience across your influence. Like you've got your own peers in tech, and then you've got business people and entrepreneurs who aren't in the tech and AI space. It's not their core competency. And I wonder, when you're constructing this book, are you thinking about each of those groups separately and hoping to get different reactions from each of them out of it?

11:03Well, there's two primary groups in broad category that I'm writing to. The first and the foremost is the people who are skeptical, AI uncertain, AI fearful, and they say, this is why you should add AI curious and AI hopeful. It doesn't mean that I'm going to persuade in one fell book all of this skepticism or uncertainty or fear to go away. but to add that in and to begin to see that if, you know, the only way that you can get to the kind of future that you want to get to is when you steer towards a positive future. You can't get to the future you want by just trying to eliminate the future you don't want.

11:44And so, you can eliminate a future you don't want, but you eliminate a lot of other futures too, including a lot of good ones. And so, that's the thing of getting to that good future. Now, that's my primary group. Secondarily, it's actually also for technologists, companies that are building these new technologies and say, look, what are the concerns that people have? The concerns around jobs, the concerns around misinformation, the concerns around privacy, they all kind of come back to kind of concerns around agency. And so if you then become a technological builder, developer, iterator, et cetera, with a focus on how do you enhance human agency, that as a design lens, I think is actually, in fact, really important.

12:26And so that's reason why that's the second group. And this design lens for technologists, it's not necessarily that like, oh, I shouldn't design something because it might replace someone's job, but to be mindful that if there's a way to design it so that it augments a job instead of replacing a job, to make that choice? Well, or to always be thinking about how would I do that? Could I do that here, et cetera? And it doesn't mean don't do replacement because, for example, there's a lot of jobs where we have human beings kind of trying to act like robots, like customer service following a script.

13:05And robots will do that better. We want to create new jobs that are essentially human jobs where you might have a little bit more agency, a little bit more creativity, a little bit more ability to express yourself, et cetera, versus just following the script. is the kind of thing that we want to create a lot more of those. AI acting on its own seems to be what scares people the most, you know, but I've thought that like the likelihood that I'm going to lose my job to an AI alone, it may happen at some point, but I'm more likely now to lose my job to someone who uses AI better than I do, right?

13:42Although if I'm losing my job, it maybe doesn't matter that much either way, which one I'm losing it to. Yeah. So part of the thing that I love about thinking about technology is whenever you think there's a problem, including a problem created by technology, you think about can technology be a solution? And so, yes, I do think that a lot of jobs will then start being requiring use of AI and AI agents as part of being professional. It's a little bit like if you said, hey, I'm a professional today and I don't use a computer or I don't use a smartphone. It's like, no, not really. Good luck getting that job.

14:14Right. Exactly. So there are technological requirements which increase with new tool sets for doing jobs, and AI is definitely going to be one of those. Now, that being said, part of the solution, you go, oh, my God, am I going to be out of jobs? It's like, well, actually, in fact, and this gets back to the book being for technologists and thinking about human agency is like, well, how do we help people have their agency of learning the new skills and saying, hey, yes, my job is going to be taken over by a human using an AI. Well, how about that human being me? or, you know, okay, so this particular one doesn't work, but how can the AI help me find a different job?

14:51In many ways, I think we will naturally get there. But I think, you know, just because we'll naturally get there doesn't mean we can't get there better by being intentional and having design. So it's one of the reasons I identify myself as a bloomer in the book versus a zoomer, because I actually don't think that, you know, everything will just be great with technology. I think we actually have to steer it some intentionally, Because when human beings encounter new general purpose technologies, as early as the printing press, all the rest of them, all kinds of like we f*** up in various ways. We handle the transition of the new technologies badly.

15:25And part of the reason why I'm doing this book, this podcast, these things like this is trying to say, let's do this transition much better. It doesn't mean it won't be without – there will be suffering and transition. It's like, well, I don't want to be learning the new job. I don't want to be learning the new tool. And it's like, well, unfortunately, you're going to have to, right? But if you embrace it with some agency, you know, we can possibly make that both less painful and have more opportunities. We are entering into the cognitive industrial revolution. And all you have to do is look at any simple books about the industrial revolution to recognize transitions can be painful.

15:59Let's do these ones better. Reed may not be a Zoomer when it comes to AI, but he's always been a techno optimist. that tech is an essential tool in creating a better future. And he definitely feels that way about AI. So how do we handle the risks and trouble spots with today's AI? And how might the Trump administration impact things? We'll talk about that after the break. Stay with us.

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18:05So if you're scaling, make it simple with DEAL. Go to deel.com slash MOS and get up to three months free. This is Rapid Response, and I'm Bob Safian. Before the break, we heard Reid Hoffman talk about what he means by super agency, which is the title of a new book he just released. Now he shares his vision of what an AI-infused workday will soon look like, how we can address the risks and trouble spots with the latest AI developments, plus what the first week of the Trump administration indicates about our tech and business future. Let's jump back in. Some of the technologies in recent years that we've all gotten really excited about, social media and smartphones.

18:55We sort of underestimated the societal impact, right? The wow factor gave way to these consequences that we didn't foresee, filter bubbles or too many hours of screen time. How much do you think this sort of alarm about AI is because of that recent history? I think we always hit alarm when we hit new technology. So I don't think it's just because, you know, the concern around social networks and information flows and children and other things, which are very, you know, kind of legitimate concerns and issues that need to be addressed. But also, we would have hit it anyway, even if it wasn't there.

19:33I mean, we had all these concerns. I mean, you and I are old enough to remember, you know, all the description around the internet about how, you know, it was kind of like a terrible place, cyberspace, very dangerous. You know, who would ever want to upload their credit card and buy something that's probably full of criminals and frauds and dangerous people? Well, there still is a bunch of bad information on the internet, but there's also a bunch of really good information. I mean, the kinds of things you can find with Wikipedia and broadcases, listening to random podcasts, these two guys talking to each other, you know, there's all of this stuff that actually can be quite good.

20:08In some ways, when new technology comes in, like the best parts of it, we get used to so quickly. Like the world never existed without this before, you know, can you Imagine if I needed to have a paper map to get around. Like, I wouldn't even know how to move myself through the world. And then those trouble things pop up. And I guess that's why you want to keep iterating and improving, because those trouble spots will always pop up. Look, the trouble spots will pop up whether or not we have new technology or not. And, you know, as you know, one of the chapters in the book is innovation and safety.

20:40You know, people always think innovation is just change and risk. Actually, in fact, you create the car and part of the reason like we now have cars that you can drive at 50 miles an hour, 60 miles an hour, 70 miles an hour on the highway is because we innovated on safety and brakes, safety and car construction, safety and seatbelts. And that – which things to iterate on and which things to do, you only really discover by going down the road. You can't sit before you create the car and invent all the things. There's no way to do that. And so that's why the iterative deployment and engagement and getting millions of people to engage is so important to how we create these things in ways that help us as a society and as humanity.

21:24So do you have a vision of what super agency mode would look like in a so-called average day for a U.S. professional on the job? Do you have a vision about what that day looks like, what happens? Look, I think that what will happen in relatively short order of years, we will be using co-pilots to help us. Say, Bob, you and I were meeting in person. It would be odd if I put the phone on the can or put on the agent and just had the agent note-taking, you know, suggesting certain things in the conversation and so forth. I think that will become typical. It may not become typical when, hey, what we're doing is we're just talking about the vacations that each of us had or something else and that kind of thing.

22:12But whenever we're working or whenever we're having conversation with some kind of goal in earnest, I think we'll do that. If there are areas that you are worried about with AI, like what are the ones that are sharpest? I mean, I'm thinking about something I read recently. I think it was in Axios about sort of the national security implications, whether it's military or whether it's information security or whether it's code breaking. You know, are those areas that you get more anxious about? I'm less worried about the AI by itself. There's obviously a bunch of like Hollywood things like Terminator robots and so forth.

22:52But the AI, since it gives you superpowers, it also gives rogue state superpowers, terrorist superpowers, criminal superpowers. And so I'm worried about the – and by the way, all of them have an incentive to adopt early, experiment with it and so forth. And so I'm worried about how do we navigate that. That's one of the reasons why I help advise a whole bunch of governments, kind of help set up kind of safety and alignment conferences, talks between the various providers of and builders of artificial intelligence. And that's another area I think of worry. And while I think this kind of category of doomer of existential risk, oh, is someone going to build Terminators, either autonomous or with humans and present an existential risk?

23:39I think that AI is much more naturally going to reduce the number of humanity's existential risk, pandemics, asteroids, other things, even as it is. But even as such as that is, I think it's important to say, well, what should be our international global treaties on the use of autonomous weapons, on kind of building kind of killer robots? and what other things we should do there in order to have the next century be the best human century. And I guess you want technologists at the table when those discussions are happening because they understand better than anyone what's practical and what might unfold.

24:25But at the same time, you don't want just technologists at that table. Oh, for sure not. Part of what we covered in super agency is this kind of notion as, look, part of how technology develops is not just an individual tech company with some potential regulatory body. Part of what makes tech companies do this well is they have a growing network of customers. They have a network of investors. They have a network of employees and their families. There's a whole stack of these interlocking networks that create what we call the consent to the governed. And I think that it's important to have that kind of broad participation, hence, you know, iterative development.

25:04And, you know, I myself, you know, while my undergraduate degree was artificial intelligence, my master's degree is in philosophy. And I think, if anything, AI brings out the importance of humanity to degrees when you think about, you know, well, how should it be designed? How should we interact with it? You know, what should be the kinds of things that are an agency focus of increasing our super agency? And these are, I think, kinds of considerations that, you know, a humanities education can be very helpful for. It's a little early, but new administration in Washington. Is there any sense yet about what that administration, how they'll look at AI or whether the regulatory environment will be any different, any change?

25:51Well, no news to our listeners. I was putting a lot of energy into, you know, electing Harris versus Trump. But I think that there's an earnestness around the fact that AI really matters and that there's people who are specifically appointed from the very beginning of administration in order to navigate. One of the phrases that I've been, you know, starting to use a lot more is American intelligence. How do we make that American intelligence? And so that's, you know, building on the CHIPS Act. But then also in the new administration, you know, kind of making a massive shift of regulation for provisioning new energy, provisioning nuclear energy, provisioning data centers.