32: The Future's In Warehousing

0:00Hello and welcome to Mat's Trucking Great podcast. Mat Ireland hosting once again and today I'm joined by my good friend Andrew Travis. Andrew, how are you? I'm very well, Matt. Very busy, but very well. Good. Well, it's always good to be busy, especially if you're in haulage and warehousing. It's better than having stood about scratching about for work, I guess. yeah absolutely we're just i don't know what it is is we do a lot for like you know the local health services such and mentioning names and it's just manic absolutely manic yeah no fair enough mate that's good right so we'll bring it right back to the beginning as i do with most guests uh so how did you get involved in haulage and transport was it family connection or or yeah i think uh when my mum was feeding me i think it was diesel fair enough it went back that early I blame my dad, like we do.

0:54Yeah. Because my dad was, in the late 70s, he was doing the desert runs and stuff like that. Wow. I think he had about six trucks on there at one stage. Really? Yeah. Amazing. What was the company called? Oh, I can't remember. It might have been a company called VOT. It wasn't a big company or anything like that. It was only a small local orlier sort of thing. There's no big-ass tram sort of thing. Yeah. But he jumped on it like everybody else did. Yeah. Had a go. And I think that, well, how old were them? Maybe eight, something like that. Eight-ish. Yeah. Yeah, 70, bonus 70. So yeah, maybe 78, something like that, yeah.

1:30Yeah. Off he pops and he goes and does that. And then like sort of up to that being a kid, always went with him as a kid in summer holidays, like you do. And his pentachnicum, I think they called, and stuff like that. Brilliant. So yeah, many, many happy year and old pentachnicum and stuff. Yeah. And that's it. It just sort of sticks. So if he was in one of them, what was he delivering then? I think a lot was maybe furniture. Okay, yeah. Makes sense. Yeah, sort of furniture and foam products and stuff like that because up near us there's like a – there still is actually. There's two companies that produce foam.

2:07Oh, okay. So if I do remember rightly, I think it could possibly have something like that. Yeah, a nice light load out anyway. Yeah, absolutely. So it was a bonus. Yeah, absolutely. It took us days, you know. I always remember having nights out of them and stuff like that, like you do. As you do, yeah. Good times, yeah, in the transport cafes and whatnot. Absolutely, every one of them. Yeah, too, right. Would you have been sleeping in the back or the cab rather than digs? Well, it was like one of the – I always remember the pedantic and thinking it was always like cooled up like a cat, you know, on top of the engine because it's the warmest bit.

2:41Yeah, yeah. You know, and I always remember my dad on the bed. Yeah. And I sort of got the rough end of the stick. but when you're when you're a kid when you're a kid you don't care do you and you're it doesn't matter because you're out there are you that's it you're invincible yeah absolutely yeah absolutely so um so you're another gentleman of an age where we couldn't leave school and pretty much go and drive a truck like the the youngsters of today who are quite fortunate in that respect so we had to wait till we were 21 so what did you do uh when you left school how did you sort of fill the time before you got your licenses?

3:14I think there was only one thing to do, and that was I left school with no qualifications because that was just me and that's it. That's it, you knew what you wanted to do. So I just left at 16, and then the first thing I did was my uncle, he got me an apprenticeship fixing trucks. Okay. So I became like a trainee HTV mechanic, you know, apprenticeship. I did about three years at that. But all I wanted to do was fill that gap between 16 and 21. Yeah. The goal was to drive a truck, and that was it. Yeah, fair enough. So between 16 and 21, I was a mechanic, then ended up doing tire fitting. Yeah.

3:50So we're doing earth mover and truck and cars and stuff like that. Yeah. And then before you know it, I was 21. Yeah. So did you enjoy that interim stage of, you know, the spanner and about? Did you actually find it fun, or was it just a bit of a slog killing the time? No, I enjoyed it, to be honest with you. And I'm glad I did it. Yeah. I'm so glad I did it, because obviously owning my own truck and stuff like that now, and what have you. it's helped me. Yes, absolutely. You know, I'm doing repairs and if I go away for anybody or myself, I always take a toolkit with me. Yeah. You know, just in case, you know, it's, I don't know, maybe a bit old school, I don't know, but that's what I learnt.

4:26It's a good thing. It's not done me any harm at all. No, 100%. If you can get your truck back up and run on the side of the road quicker than a recovery truck comes along, it's also going to save you quite a lot of money as well, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I do think, you know, if I do a bit of work for the people, I think they appreciate it. Yes. You know, instead of, oh, I can't put, and I get people can't put bulbs in because they're not allowed and stuff like that, but I'll take tyres off the side of the road and stuff, you know, and chase a wheel and what have you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

4:55I mean, it's fairly sort of simple stuff. And, of course, at the time as well, it was kind of more expected from the drivers, wasn't it? Because we didn't have the phone networks and various things like that, did we? so it was just quicker and easier for the driver to just get on with it and sort it out. Yeah, exactly. That's what it was. And I think at that age, it was part of the job. Yeah, yeah. You know, I always had a spare wheel of some sort for either the front bit or the back bit, you know, and there was a wheel key somewhere. Yeah. And, you know, obviously more technical things, you'd have to call somebody out, but just your general odds and sods sort of thing.

5:33Simple roadside repairs, yeah, just to keep you going. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you turn 21, you go off to do your class one as it was. Did you pass first time? Yes, of course. 13 days. Of course. My move to the 17th and I passed by the 30th. Top man. Can you remember what the truck was that you learned to drive? Yes. It was a Mercedes. Yeah. And it was a six-speed Mercedes. Now, I don't know the age of it and I don't know the engine size or whatever the number was on the side. Yeah. But it was a day cab. Yeah. Definitely a day cab Mercedes. Six speed and that was it. But it was enough.

6:15It was enough. With like a 30-foot flatbed, something like that? Yes, it was. It wasn't much more. It might have been a 40-foot flat. I don't really, I can't remember. Yeah. But yeah, it was a flat. Yeah, it wasn't a box. It was definitely a flat. Yeah. Yeah, same as, similar to what I was in a DAF. That was a former super drug DAF, 85. It might have even been a 75. Yeah, it was day cab. I think it was eight speed, four over four, again, with the 30-foot flat. I mean, the laws have all changed in it now, and you've got to have a loaded trailer with sides, essentially, so box or curtain sider. But you can still have a shorter one, but I think that you should have to learn with the maximum length, or certainly a 45 foot, 13, 6, just because that's the most average normal trailer on the road, isn't it?

7:03Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but we're digressing from your story somewhat. So did you manage to get a job fairly easy? Because obviously back in the day as well, there was the age-old, no experience, no job, and it was catch-22, wasn't it? But obviously if your uncle managed to get you a job on the spanners, did you have much luck with getting a job fairly quickly or was it a bit of a challenge? Instantly. Really? Instantly. Yeah, because my dad obviously, and my dad being an HGV driver, it always was going to be. you know I was going to work where my dad works because my dad got me a job yeah and that's what it was you know so as soon as I passed it was just a case of get a truck from the scrapyard yeah and then uh there's your truck you know that sort of thing so yeah within a few weeks I was up and ready yeah uh and that was it so did he not have his own company by that point then he no it had gone by then yeah it had gone by then yeah because like I said my dad's it was like late 70s early 80s yeah and i passed in 70 81 i passed right okay so yeah all that had gone then my dad was actually uh another story my dad my dad was a double amputee and he ended up being the traffic manager of where we was driving right okay i was driving for but at the time my dad had legs then yeah so we was driving together and you know doing this and doing that sort of thing so we did work together like that yeah and then as time went on my dad lost his legs and he ended up in the office at the same company.

8:29Right, okay. So then he became a transport manager. Yeah, fair enough. So it didn't work. Yeah, but that must have given the both of you some really good memories of, you know, like a dream come true, isn't it? Yeah. Driving a truck, working alongside your dad. It must have been fantastic. Yeah, it was. And my dad was my hero, really. And I suppose like all of us was dads who were drivers and stuff like that, you know, if we had that sort of relationship, then your dad becomes your hero, you know? That's it, yeah. And he was. And he was my hero. So as soon as he got me at that job, it was like he was just the best dad in the world.

9:03Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And then when you rock up and you see what you're driving, then you think, is it really? Yeah, I've changed my mind. Yeah, exactly. I might as well go and fit some tyres or something. We'll just carry on tyre fitting. Yeah. So what was that first truck then that you had as your own? Oh, well, it was a Whirland Road train. Right. Day cab. Yeah. But with a bed bolted to the back of it. Oh, okay. Like a, I can't think what the conversion was. It's not like a Jennings or something. I think this was an all-made conversion. Yeah, was it like a, what was it, a pigeon box conversion?

9:39I called it a coffin. Coffin, yeah, just like this tiny little space that you can just crawl into. Yeah. It was awful. Yeah. It was awful, you know. I still remember the registration of it now and stuff like that. But you do because you're first trucked on. Exactly, mate. Yeah, I'm sure I've said this before on the podcast. with T810, JBJ, 4 Series Scania, Flat Roof. It was new to a chap called Richard Driver. Yeah, 124420. And it was the newest Arctic at Camax who I worked for because none of the guys, they had 3 Series Scania streamlines and they didn't want to get out into the 4 Series for some reason.

10:12So that was my first truck when I was away. Yeah, that's what I ended up with. And I remember the B348 BOM. Hey, there you are. I wonder if it still exists. I always remember it. Probably not. Well, I wouldn't have thought so. It did actually come out of a scrapyard for me. You know, it wasn't an army downer, if you like. It had already gone to the scrapyard to sort of live the rest of its days, and then it came back out of the scrapyard because the boss bought it and sprayed it up for me, signed it in his livery and stuff, and handed me the keys to it, and then said to me, just before you go, just one thing, just make sure you get yourself some oil for your week's journey.

10:51And he says, oh, yeah, okay, not knowing the trope. Yeah. So I just said, how much oil do I need to take? He went, seven gallon. Seven gallons. Seven gallon of oil. And as we used to put it on the diesel tank, between the diesel tank and the chassis. Yeah. I had seven gallon of oil down there, sort of thing. And when I got back on a Friday, it had all gone. Flipping it. And a gallon is five litres, isn't it, for people who don't know the Imperium. So 35 litres of oil for a week. We'll sort of replace the oil weekly in this truck, you know? But like he said to me, he said, there's one good thing, it will never rust.

11:26Well, that's true. There was a reason why it was in that scrapyard. Yeah. It was using more oil than the Exxon Valdez, which is another older reference as well. But I think oil was a lot cheaper then, because you wouldn't do it nowadays, would you? Oh, definitely not, no. Not 35 litres a week, blimey. No, but we used it. you know we did use it and uh uh yeah but it's just i like anything it's just experience and that's just how it was and yeah because you sort of you're new to it it's like well that's what it is then yeah it doesn't matter yeah no it doesn't matter it says oil we'll put it in if that's what he says so every morning and you just like you know put five liters in every morning sort of wow you know so but you get you get out of it dirty and then when you get in yes That comes from a scrapyard, you know, you wouldn't have kept your worst enemies in there, you know, it's filthy.

12:18But that was it, I was driving. That's it, and it was your first truck, a memorable thing. Yeah, absolutely, and I loved it. And I had all the flags in the window that dangled in the triangle, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. The little scarves with Lil and on and stuff like that, you know. Yeah. And all European countries that I'd never been to. So what was the work then? UK only? Yeah, that was UK only. and just general knowledge and just anything really, anything you could strap on the back of a flat trailer really. That was it. Yeah, and away all week, were you, sort of thing? Yeah, absolutely.

12:52Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Keen as mustard. Oh, 100%, you know. I'm doing 20 hours a day, you know, and just pay me for half of it, you know, that sort of thing, because, you know, I've got my arm out the window and I've got to check shit on. That's it, yeah. I'm happy. I'm happy. And that was the old goal from being born, I think, you know, was just to drive a truck. Yeah. Well, yeah, you're still there with it. There you are doing it. So how long were you in the lane and four then, roughly? I would say until I got promoted to the Southern Atkinson, I would say I was probably in that for about only short because I proved myself.

13:27So I was only about three or four months in it. That's not bad. Yeah, then I got back and he said, can I have a little word with you? So of course you can, yeah, yeah. What, boss? Yeah, yeah. You've been promoted. Really? He went, yeah. so in Atkinson that's a lot a 401 this twin splitter and stuff you know 320 big cam 14 litre and it said it down the side the lock as well big cam yeah yeah fantastic fantastic the one with the big sleeper can as well yes so yeah yeah so a hell of a step up really from the 100 % from the oil slicker yeah yeah so so what gearboxes in the Leyland and did you adapt to the twin splitter quite quickly and easily.

14:09If I remember rightly, the Leyland, I'm not 100 % Matt, but I'm sure it was something like, it might have been four over four or something like that. Yeah. Not really, with a little bit of a splitter on the side, I think. I'm not really 100%. I think it was something like that. Maybe a fuller. Yes. Yeah, with a split on the high four. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what it could have been. A long time ago. Yes. With the little pull down handbrake on it with like a U shape on the deck, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. I remember that. I do remember that. And then I got promoted to the set of Atkinson, which is like, look at me now.

14:42You've got to change your flags. Yeah. Yeah, I think I might have had a set of Atkinson one as well, you know. Yeah, and I got like an extra one then, because I might have been to Scotland, you know, that sort of thing. Absolutely, mate, yeah. So although I've been to these places millions of times before with my dad before I was driving, you know, it's still, I've done it, you know. Absolutely. So how did you find the twin splitter? Had you driven them before, like around the yard? model well when i first i drove i drove around the yard with my dad and stuff yeah uh but i suppose it's a different matter when you're out in the open yeah and you know you've got full load on and stuff like that and yeah you're strapping things down and stuff it's it's a bit of a challenge i suppose but it's like anything i suppose once you got used to it it it's simple yeah you know it's a lovely gearbox to be fair yeah once you get used to it you know at first you get the crunch don't you know wrong gear here and you're dipping your clutch for no reason and stuff but yeah yeah i enjoyed it i did enjoy it excellent because i i hold my hands up i've never driven one i would love to have a go in one just to see how it all works i know i think i know the theory in my head of how to do it but yeah because i've never had the opportunity because they were they were dying out when i passed my test that they were they were still about but they were in the older trucks that they you know people like scania and volvo you know they were progressed onto automatics slowly and mercedes but i don't know if you could have bought a manual mercedes sort of back in the late 90s i'm not sure um no i'm not sure myself so so um so yeah it was like the older generation trucks especially the british ones that still have the twin splitters and i just didn't get to drive them so i can't i can't really compare with anything but there is as you'll know and most listeners will know there's so many people wax lyrical about them online and if you can't drive one you're nothing so I'm nothing I'm nothing I hold my hands up to that yeah I've had quite a few I've had about I don't know maybe three or four of them or something like that yeah yeah I had one job where we were delivering fencing panels from up near me all on the south coast yeah for Travis Perkins and that was a twins player yeah and it I don't know it was fantastic for the job fair enough yeah absolutely fantastic yeah so I've had a few of them But, you know, if we sort of go forward a little bit, would you really have an automatic course of wood?

17:05Yeah, absolutely. And I've said this time and again as well, especially with the current work I'm doing now, if I could have an F-16 doing that, I would, just because it's very easy going to King's Lynn and back. And I would genuinely prefer a clutch just because I have to back up onto a gantry where they put the pipes on the trailer and it would just make my life a bit easier if I had a clutch. Yeah, sure. But if I was doing any sort of other work, and I never thought I'd say this, if I'd said this to my 25-year-old self, my 25-year-old self would have laughed his head off and said, you'll never prefer an automatic to a manual.

17:42Which, well, I do prefer a manual, but I choose not to have one in this day and age. I think that's fair to say. Because they've come so far. Yeah, and I've been out in it before, holy, half an hour ago, an hour ago. Yeah. Just doing a job for one of my customers. And it's nice just to – because it's not comfortable. Yeah. The truck's not comfortable. You get every bump and stuff like that. But when you're in a 20-year-old truck and you've got a manual gear stick, you know, and you've got analog tachograph and stuff like this. Yeah. It's just nice. It's nice. You get on the motorway and nobody passes you.

18:19Yeah. You know what I mean? It's fun. It's fun, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's sort of the very last – it's not the last of the fun trucks as such because they're just a lot easier to drive now, aren't they? Yeah, of course they are. Yeah. So how did you progress on from the 7 Atkinson then? Was it some more British stuff or what direction did you go? Yeah, I think it probably was – did I go back mechanically? No, I never went back mechanically. Yeah. I think from there I moved on to a general – no, I didn't. I moved. I sort of got settled down with the wife, first wife and stuff like that, you know, so you want a bit of a comfy job sort of speed, you know.

19:02So I ended up working for, well, at the time it was Excel Logistics, NFC, which was like for Marks and Spencer. So I was on for them for a while. I had a bad crash. Then it all ended there, not end there, but, you know, I came off working for them. and then I went doing Generalology again then which was multi-drop down London and stuff like that and I really enjoyed that and that was in a 112 Scania tag axle but with not twin wheel, tag axle but on the outers that was an old D-Redge Scania yeah, I know the ones you mean they look really odd don't they them tag axles especially when they've got the inner only one they look frankly awful in my opinion someone must like them somewhere it was a yellow and I love yellow trucks.

19:51Yeah. It was yellow over purple and red striped and going round the cab, so to speak. Yeah. It was great. It was just a great job. It was a great job. You know, you knew everybody and I did a bit of shunting in like up near us in Manchester, we were there. And then I went on the road and then we ended up doing multi-drop around London and then we used to collect the fruit at night out of Favisham. Yeah. The night man had come down from Manchester to Favisham. Yeah. and then do all the markets on the way back. You know, he was some boy he was. Yeah. You know, and he had like his eyes, he had black rings around his eyes.

20:28I'm not surprised. He did it all the time. All the time. He was mad really, you know. Yeah. But it was done and that's how he was. So yeah, I ended up with that Scania there, D-Edge Scania, yellow one. Yeah. Loved it. So that was like the sort of general knowledge bit of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't know. you just sort of move from one job to another then, don't you? Yeah, yeah. You know, some are good, some are bad. Yeah, some you want to forget about. Yeah, exactly, that's it. And you do like little short bits here and six bumps there and that sort of thing. So you're just sort of bouncing about a little bit, really, until then, well, I got married again then, second time.

21:09Yeah. Where I've got my youngest lad now. He's a driver now. Yeah. Oh, Lewis, everybody knows him. So, yeah, we just, I don't know. I've worked for, I was working for Richard King in Trafford Park. I did nearly seven years for him. Yeah. On containers. Yeah. So, yeah, that was that. I had a Golden Griffin there with many a show with Golden Griffin. And, yeah, it just, well, just life goes on, doesn't it? And just things progress and things happen. Yeah. I don't know. 35 years I've been driving now. Yeah. It's scary when you say it out loud, isn't it? It is. Yeah. It is. So really, the only job I've ever had is a truck driving job.

21:52Yeah, yeah. So when was your first European trip then? Oh, well, we're going back now, aren't we, Matt? Wow. Oh, I couldn't even put my finger on it. If I'd been driving 35 years, I would probably say my first European trip was probably 15, 20 years ago. Can you remember what track it was in? No. No? Could I? I'm sure it was a Scania, Matt. It was a hell of a long time ago. Yeah. Quite vague, to be fair. Yeah. But I do remember one. I do remember one trip. Yeah. Which sort of sticks in my head. And it was for Craig Isaac. Yeah. And I did a little bit for Craig Isaac. And I did quite a bit of European for Craig Isaac in the blue and white left-hand drive truck that he's got.

22:40Yeah. And I always remember going down to a prison in, I think it's near Reading or somewhere like that kind of eye security prison right and I always remember we were delivering plants and trees and stuff yeah and it was I thought what was it called a camera what are it called somebody will know it it's not Broadmoor is it yes it was Broadmoor yeah that's down there it was Broadmoor and it was so scary I bet and I was delivering outside it wasn't within the walls or nothing but the siren goes off which goes off every Monday I think it is at 10 o 'clock yeah and once his siren goes off it's like it's like a test like a fire alarm test yeah but it was such a strange noise where you think someone's someone's escaped yeah you know and all the bad boys were in there and stuff like that and I just always remember it and it always sticks in my head and then after that I bounced out to Holland for him yeah yeah so yeah I just that one always sticks in my head a lot of the others are quite vague you know yeah but I suppose you get a lot don't you get a bit older yeah you know that's it all sort of fades into one doesn't it yeah it does it does you know I probably miss many a company out there and many a truck out but you just sort of forget about them and you know there's one guy I've worked for him three times right and half the time I forget which trucks I used to have with him you know and it's just everything you know it all goes into one like you say and you're so busy doing this and doing that yeah just I don't know my memory's going maybe well it might be yeah but like say when there's so much variety as well, it's difficult to just pinpoint it as to when and who and where, isn't it?

24:18Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So when did you go out on your own as such? I would probably say 10 years ago. Okay. So fairly recently. Yeah. No, actually, it's a bit shorter than that, actually. When I bought the truck that I've got now, it was bought a scrap. Really? Yeah, yeah. I paid£10 ,000 for it scrap. I don't mind telling people, but I paid£10 ,000 for it scrap from A &M commercials at Warrington. And I always remember Michael. I don't think he's there now. He's one of the A &M. And I always remember him saying to me, in an Irish accent, which I'm not very good at, but he said,£2 ,000 should be right.

25:01Well, it weren't£2 ,000, trust me, Matt. It's a little bit more. Yeah. So anyway, we did the truck up. and originally it was just going to be done as a show truck. Yeah. And then we did it as a show truck. And then me being me, I thought, I want to be an owner driver because I can be an owner driver because I've got a truck. Yeah. So I became an owner driver probably the worst months of the year, winter and autumn and snow and slush everywhere and stuff. Anyway, I caught so many panels on it, the catwalk are ripped off with the front of the trailer and stuff like that. Thank God. Bashed all the side panels.

25:35So basically I got to the stage where I thought, I've had enough. Yeah. I need to get it redone. Yeah. So I got it re... I was getting it redone. I had it respread again. And then I did a little bit more, and I said, I can't above it, so I took it back. And I said, I want an extra day, so I want a new rear bumper on it and stuff like that. But there's no rush. Now, remember them words, Matt. There's no rush. I know them words very well. Yeah. With a project that I bought in 2006, and it's still not complete. Yeah. Well, I said this to the guy who was doing it. We'll do it together, but it was in his place.

26:09Previous to this, I did a delivery once to a place in Stockport and this lad said to me, oh, that's a lovely truck, that. What a beautiful truck. I never knew him. He said, if I ever get married, I want to get married in your truck. I want you to take me to the church in your truck. Whatever. I don't know you. I'm never going to see you again in my life. Takes my truck off. Off it pops to get re-sprayed and this rear bumper on the back and stacks up the back and stuff like that. Yeah. Ping, my phone goes, message off this lad that I met in Stockport. Hiya, mate, do you remember me? I went, yeah, I do, yeah.

26:45Well, I'm getting married. I went, you what? My truck was in bits. I said, weren't you getting married? He said, in three months' time. Am I all right to use your truck? I said, well, it is in the workshop. Now, bearing in mind, I said to this guy, take your time. Yeah. So there's no rush. So nothing got done. Yeah. So I goes across to go and have a look at my truck, and I thought, there's a lot of work to be done here. Yeah. I promise this lad now I'm going to take him to the church on time, like you do. I've never spent£12 ,000 so quick in my life. It was the dearest wedding that I've ever been to.

27:27So we did the truck, we took him to the wedding. Now, my truck, I've done all sorts of it with the truck, but we took him to the wedding, he was much appreciative, and his missus was really happy and stuff like that. But it was sort of like 95 % complete. There was no name on it or nothing. Right. It was just a white scannier, but he wanted a white scannier because the sign writing had not been done. I had stickers, I should say, had not been done and stuff. Yeah. So we're talking to the church on time. Yeah. So then I thought, you know what? I'm not going to use it because it looks so well when it's done.

27:57Yeah. And then I ended up using it again slightly for my customers in the warehouse, never moving stuff, backwards and forwards. So I still use it, and I've been having it today. And like I say, it's just been nice and fun to use it. So I don't use it like I used to do. Yeah. Because obviously, as you know, I work for other people and stuff like that. Absolutely. So it's just nice of me to pack it up. Yeah. So you mentioned briefly there about the warehouse, and how did that come? Did you start that whilst you were an owner driver, or was it after you stopped? The warehouse thing is quite strange because I was doing Italy for a mate of mine over the way there, and I did two years solid for him.

28:40Yeah. And I was driving along one day, and I thought, I feel really tired. Yeah. And I'd been asleep for, I don't know, seven hours, having a nine off, seven hours. You know, it's like you're going out of Italy. From where we were setting off, it's like nearly two and a half days to get there. Yeah. So it's a big drive, or it's a good drive. and I'd wake up in the morning, I'd set off and I'd be tired. Yeah. And I'd be nodding. I'd be like, oh my God, what's wrong with me? Yeah. Something's not right here. You know, you think, I don't normally do that, but I'm doing it now. Yeah. So anyway, long story short, as it works out, I'm getting tired and tired all the time.