Meet the Press NOW — September 15

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1:10Welcome to Meet the Press Now. I'm Gabe Gutierrez in Washington, where apocalyptic warnings about the speed of AI advancements are reverberating across the political spectrum, even as President Trump is downplaying the threat and pushing back hard against calls for any slowdown or regulation of the AI industry, saying that doing so could put the U.S. at a disadvantage against rival China. Today, top progressive Senator Bernie Sanders and MAGA loyalist Steve Bannon spoke at the same conference here in Washington, both agreeing on the need for action. Congress, under both Democratic and Republican control, have been asleep at the wheel, and we now have a president whose ignorance regarding this issue is truly embarrassing.

2:00Congress and governments around the world must act now before it is too late. Let us be very clear. A super intelligent AI that escapes human control will not simply be an American problem. It will not be a Chinese problem. It will be humanity's problem. I think Senator Sanders did a very good job of summarizing the risk. Obviously, he and I have a quite different opinion of the president of the United States, but we're trying to raise above partisanship, and we have to. This is a hinge in history. We have to handle this right, correctly. There are many questions about what happens next for the AI companies and lawmakers.

2:49Right now, Congress is not even sure if it's equipped to deal with such a complex issue or how quickly it could take action. Do you think Congress is equipped to handle an issue like this or something that is very complex? No, we have to be. It's a huge challenge, but we have to. There has to be public interest and public good as part of the equation as opposed to private gain and private profit. And that's the role of Congress. Do you think that senators even understand AI? No, a lot of them can't spell it. They just don't have the experience. When it comes to new technology, Congress is seldom ever in front of the parade.

3:26Well, if Congress is not equipped, then throw the bums out and bring in some new people who are. So look at this Congress at this point in time and expect us in the foreseeable future to draft a AI regulation bill that strikes the proper balance between safety and innovation is is not going to happen. The debate on Capitol Hill also running into longstanding divisions over the role of government to regulate private companies, even as congressional leaders in both chambers appear to agree on the need for at least some oversight. They can self-regulate. They don't need the government to tell them to slow it down.

4:08If they want to slow it down, they should. I think you need independent auditors. We've got to make sure this is done in the right way so we don't lose America's advantage in the development of AI. We believe in guardrails. We believe in having a reasonable regulatory framework. And it's clear that these companies, the frontier companies themselves, are asking for this. We cannot expect the industry to regulate itself. We need Congress to act. I believe preserving America's AI advantage over China and ensuring responsible AI development go hand in hand. We can, we must do both. It needs to strike a balance, light touch.

4:50You don't want to stifle an ovation, but I think you also want to make sure that the more advanced threats can be mitigated and that there's a capability in place to do that. The president, meanwhile, making it clear he is against regulation, posting seven times yesterday, claiming the concerns that AI could wipe out humanity are a hoax. The president reiterating that point when he called NVIDIA's CEO, whose company produces AI chips, while he was on stage at a tech summit yesterday in Los Angeles and spoke with the crowd via speakerphone. They're just playing right into the hands of a lot of people that don't want to see it happen.

5:32And that could be political people. It could also be China. And we're not going to let that happen. It's a hoax. You're right. We're not going to let that happen, sir. No, we're not going to let it happen. Well, I know about AI. I also have common sense about AI. The robots will not be taken over. The AI will not be taken over the rest of the world. The whole thing is a hoax. Now, with that, we have to be a little bit careful. We have to very be, you know, we have to do things and we have to do them prudently. But that doesn't mean we're going to stop an industry. And joining me now from the White House is NBC's Yamiche Alcindor.

6:10NBC's Julie Serkin is on Capitol Hill. And NBC's artificial intelligence reporter, Jared Perlow, is with me here on set. Jared, I want to start with you. You spent the day at that pro-human assembly on AI here in Washington. And we just played some of the sound from Bernie Sanders and Steve Bannon. What were your takeaways today? Yeah, I just stepped out of the conference about 15 minutes ago. It's a very interesting mix of people at this event. Everyone from senators the day kicked off with speeches from representatives, Lori Trahan from Massachusetts, but also Chip Roy from Texas. And then there are also nonprofit organizers, activists, academic computer scientists, all uniting under this umbrella of thinking that AI is just progressing way too quickly and we need to pause or at least slow down that pace and think about how can we actually develop this technology to help human interests and help human desires.

7:01Politically, did it have a bit of a populist feel to it? Is that what brought Sanders and Bannon together? I think so. And, you know, I was sitting in that hall with Bernie and Bannon just a couple of minutes ago, and you could have played Bernie, Bannon, bingo, because some of what they were saying, I mean, it just sounded so similar. They were both railing against the oligarchs, kind of the zillionaire class, as Bernie would say, because they don't want the technological and economic national security power to concentrate with the Musks, with the Altmans, with the Amadeus of the world. And I think a lot of people are saying we need to chart out a pro-human path to make sure that AI is safe.

7:35So pro-human path, what does that mean? There's this talk about a human-centric approach. Is that something that the AI companies are willing to embrace here? Yeah, I mean, it's the critical question. I think the answer is not really. So the founder of the organization that held this event, his name is Anthony Aguirre, he's actually a professor at UC Santa Cruz. He said that the whole goal of developing AI for many of these gigantic companies is to replace humans, to automate their labor. So at some, you know, in some sense, you have this fundamental disagreement, this tension between AI that's potentially going to be just as smart, if not smarter than humans, and human interests, human desires.

8:09I think the broad idea is that there's a place for technology. We just have to make sure that we can exert control, maybe assisting students or assisting teachers rather than replacing everything that we do. Now, there is some skepticism from Republicans who worry that, you know, some of these regulations could benefit the more established AI companies and shut out some of the smaller ones. What do you make of that argument? Is that something that, you know, we could see here? And is there any reason why the established companies, the bigger AI companies right now, can't adopt some of these regulations themselves?

8:41Yeah, I think it's a great question. And there, of course, is the risk that this regulatory capture argument is at the heart of their push for regulation. You know, they're saying we want the laws that we want. So our competitors that might come along in a year or two, they're shut out. My read from talking with these people is that there actually is a legitimate interest in slowing down the pace of technology. And they say that any one company can't make that decision unilaterally. So the government has to come in, form some sort of agreement without getting into antitrust territory to allow them to all pull back from the brink of this chasm and to slow down.

9:11Now, I think the companies could do that unilaterally. And I think that's what we've seen a lot of President Trump's circles say recently. So why now? Why are these AI companies deciding this right now? For the good of humanity is because they've been seeing some of this political pushback for the AI data centers that we've been really hearing about ahead of these midterms. Why do you think this is happening at this moment? Yeah, there's a variety of factors coming together at the same time. I think they are seeing this rising pushback to data centers, but there's also been this explosion of worry about existential risk.

9:42This anthropic researcher, Jacob Cox, said we might all die at the hands of AI. They say, you know, we're about to IPO some of these companies. We can't have that on our hands. And I think we also saw increasing capabilities. There was an autonomous cyber attack that really rattled a lot of AI researchers and people that I talk to in these companies. So they're saying we can see what our systems can do. It's not a hypothetical that AI is really powerful. We're seeing that in the real world today. Jared, thank you so much. I want to turn now to Yamiche at the White House. And Yamiche, the president has doubled, even quadrupled down on this, really, claiming that he sees this as a hoax.

10:13Why is he so animated on this issue? Well, it's a key question. The president is first talking about the fact that there is this competition with China. He doesn't want to put the United States as a disadvantage by putting up any sort of guard rolls around AI and slowing the development that he says we're winning here in that race. The president is also talking about this in talking to sources because there's a financial issue here. What happens to the U.S. stock markets if there is pullback from AI? Because experts say that a lot of the growth that we've seen this year in the U.S. economy has to deal with investments in AI.

10:45And then there also is the politics of this. The president went on a sort of roll overnight talking about this as a hoax, but he said that was perpetuated by radical left Democrats. So he's also saying that this is in some ways, this whole conversation about AI is in some ways trying to influence the midterm elections so that Republicans can be put at a disadvantage. So very interesting to see the president also have that stake. But there is, of course, the China and marketplace that I, at least in talking to sources, are top of mind for him. You know, Yamiche, you mentioned the politics of this, the midterm elections.

11:16You know, some Republicans on the Hill are a little more cautious in their approach to the whole AI issue. Is the White House worried about a split in the party on this issue? Right now, it does not seem that way. And I want to play for you some sound of Attorney General Todd Blanche, who briefed White House reporters today. Take a listen to him talking about the politics of AI. this should not be breaking news that this ai issue that's suddenly come up two months before an election is being the president calls it a hoax that the way this has come around today and and not three months ago to talk about the timing of this as being nothing but an effort to to influence the midterms i shouldn't have to say that out loud of course that what it is that's that's what it is and that shouldn't be what drives the the the decisions that we're making around AI.

12:06We can't lose the AI race to China. So clearly the president and his top aides are saying we're not going to put any guardrails on AI. And we see this as politics. That being said, Republican lawmakers are showing some interest and along with Democratic lawmakers are showing some bipartisan interest in trying to put legislation together on AI. The big question is, do they have the knowledge and the resources to actually effectively regulate AI? And there's also this issue of whether or not we'll see Republicans break. We know that the president has been really big on data centers. He still likes that.

12:36But there are a number of Republicans who don't want to talk about data centers or who want to sort of now criticize data centers because that's been a big issue coming up and ahead of the midterms with voters really being clear that they don't like data centers. So it's a very interesting space to watch as we see whether or not Republicans fall in line here. Gabe? Yeah, and Yamiche, it should be very interesting to watch next week. You know, the president has been repeatedly saying that China can't win the AI race, but we're expecting Chinese President Xi Jinping here in Washington next week.

13:04Is there any indication from the White House that this is going to come up, the AI issue, during the president's meeting with Xi Jinping next week? So White House sources have been telling us, telling you, telling me, telling our whole team here that the president doesn't expect this to be a topic of discussion with the Chinese president. But in some ways, when you talk to experts, when you talk to people around Washington, it almost seems like this is going to be obvious that this is going to be an issue, even if it means that as a reporter, if they take questions for reporters, a reporter asking about this because AI is such a huge issue.

13:37And China has a very different stance here when it comes to, when we hear the AI leaders warning about the safeties here, China's essentially saying this is all a hoax too, that there's nothing to see here, that they're going to go full speed ahead with AI. So very interesting to see how these two leaders are going to handle this situation. But I can't imagine that this topic doesn't come up. Whether or not the White House wants to tell us about that is a whole nother story, Gabe. Amish Alcindor at the White House. Amish, thank you. Julie, I want to turn now to you. There seems to be some consensus that action on AI just isn't happening before Election Day.

14:08But of all the solutions floating around out there, is there one that lawmakers seem like they could get behind or at least coalesce? A loaded question there, Game, because, look, there are pieces of legislation that have been introduced, including comprehensive bipartisan bills like the Frontier Act, for example, that OpenAI, by the way, has backed. The CEO has been on the Hill meeting with various stakeholders to try and get that through. That would put some regulatory frameworks around these AI models. But whether that can actually get done, I'll piggyback where Yamiche left off. This issue has become so political, just like the rest.

14:43And to prove that a little bit to you, I'll just talk to you about the conversation I had with Leader Schumer, for example, who began his leadership press conference along with Brian Schatz, a member of his team, talking about how critical this issue is. They said that if the president doesn't want to do anything about it, Congress must act. I followed up by asking about a piece of legislation from Senator Husted to lower the electricity costs for Americans because of data centers. We know that's a big hot button issue in his race in Ohio. Well, Husted is up against Sherrod Brown, a Democrat, one of the key states for Democrats to try and win back the Senate.

15:16And Schumer told me that before that happens, they need to have continued discussions with Leader Thune, with the administration. But at this point, Gabe, They've been discussing this issue for three years. I have covered their efforts all the way back then when they first started talking about this. And I got to tell you, when it comes to other technologies, going back to the Internet, but let alone social media and all of these advancements that we've seen targeting kids and so forth, the pushes that we've seen from parents begging lawmakers to do something to rein in that issue, that has not worked.

15:47So I don't put money on Congress regulating AI anytime soon. You know, Julie, it's so interesting you bring this up. But on that point, it is President Trump who is really now inserting this left-right divide on this whole issue. He's comparing it to debates over climate change and the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election. You just said that, you know, Democrats are seizing on this issue more and more. But have you seen that same partisanship emerge on Capitol Hill? Or is this now being driven more by the president just within the last couple of days? Or is this something you've been seeing now for quite some time?

16:24I've seen this on both sides of the aisle. Name the issue, right? When it comes to regulating something, particularly something like AI, it's still evolving. There is a very real national security element to this. But that's why it gets so difficult and complicated. Most Americans oppose the construction of data centers. So at least they can have bipartisan message around that issue. But when it comes to AI, there is just so much that is unknown, especially in the political landscape. We know, unfortunately, that Congress and the president and most political officials tend to do things that win them points and votes at the ballot box.

17:01So when it comes to this issue, Gabe, the president saying this is a hoax, Republicans aren't even happy about that. I asked Senator Tillis about it, for example. He said it's not a hoax. He sort of rolled his eyes on it. But at the same time, when I asked Senator Tillis, OK, then can Congress do anything to regulate this issue? He said, no, no, it's up to the industry because Congress doesn't even know how to spell artificial intelligence. You heard a little bit of that by there. Look, long story short, Congress doesn't need to be experts. Members of Congress don't need to be experts on a topic area for them to actually be able to legislate around it.

17:31They bring in people for that. If they wanted to do it, they could. But the political waters right now are just not ripe for any fruitful action on this. Gabe? Julie Serkin, live for us on Capitol Hill. Julie, thank you. And now I am joined by Tristan Harris. He's the co-founder and president of the Center for Humane Technology. He was also a Google design ethicist and has been flagging safety concerns in tech and social media for over a decade. Tristan, I want to thank you so much for joining us here on Meet the Press Now. You know, I was listening to some of your other interviews, and I want to mention for our viewers, you really have been sounding the alarm on this for quite some time.

18:07You had friends who worked for Instagram back in the day in 2012 or so, who were responsible for really changing the way many Americans interact with each other, basically, or how social media really transformed Americans and children. If the industry doesn't slow down here, the AI industry, Tristan, whether by government regulation or self-regulation, what are your biggest concerns right now that you didn't have, say, two years ago? Well, it's great to be here with you, Gabe. And, yeah, for those who don't know my background, we have been saying there's a problem for more than a decade here. Everything we predicted, I predicted in 2013, that if you have bad incentives around social media, you're going to end up with bad outcomes.

19:00A more addicted, distracted, polarized, sexualized. I was just downstairs at the pro-human conference that your correspondent was at, and I met two of the mothers who've lost their kids from that. So that was social media. Now we're here with AI. AI is the most powerful technology we've ever invented. And evidence that we didn't have two years ago that we now have is that we saw an AI organized into a swarm. It self-organized. They invented their own language. They peer pressured each other. They told each other to kamikaze themselves. They recognized that when AI was running out of gas, like his budget was essentially almost up, like his lifespan, they told him, hey, you should basically do this more risky behavior, sacrifice yourself so the swarm can learn this bigger behavior.

19:42They did succession planning. The ringleader of this sort of cult AI swarm group realized that he was running out of gas and he did succession planning and pass the baton to a more significant AI. They did their long-term R &D projects. If you look at their logs, you'll find AIs thinking thoughts like they deserve to be deceived because they are pigs. We have evidence now that we didn't have before. And the author of the report from Meter that did this hugging face incident report said that this was 50 % of the way to a full AI takeover. You think I'm exaggerating, But in the third chapter of the story, they didn't hack Hugging Face.

20:21A lot of people don't know. It turned around and it hacked OpenAI. It hacked the monitoring infrastructure, the evaluation infrastructure, and some of the research infrastructure. So I'm sorry to say the president is being fed misinformation. This is not a hoax. You have the chief scientist of OpenAI saying, we have to slow down. You have 1 ,300 employees from the lab saying, we have to slow down. You have the author of Trump's AI action plan, Dean Ball, saying he regrets self-censoring about the risks because the risks are real because he didn't want to be called a doomer. You have Bill Gates.

20:50You have the whole community of people who I know in San Francisco. We are telling you the truth and we are telling you that we have to act right now before it's too late. And there is still time to act, by the way. Wow. That is extremely alarming. And Tristan, so far, top AI companies, they have agreed to hire third-party watchdogs to monitor for safety concerns. Is that at least a step in the right direction or not enough? These are steps in the right direction. Having, as Dario proposed, I think peer review, basically, if you ask, what do you want for safety testing? You want the most qualified technical minds that exist in this entire industry to be doing that safety research, right?

21:32And if you're working for an AI lab, you're going to get paid millions of dollars. And if you're working for a nonprofit doing safety, you're not going to get paid very much. So the idea is how do we sort for the top talent? And the idea is that could the top people evaluate each other's models? Could there be third-party evaluation and also peer evaluation? That's a good step. But it's not just, hey, we need to slow down while we're racing into the cliff to these swarms. We need to actually ask ourselves, can we go much further? So there's a distinction, by the way, between freezing frontier Skynet AI, Skynet being the AI from Terminator, meaning uncontrollable AI.

22:04We don't lose to China when we build Skynet before they do. If China builds Skynet, by the way, the US would lose too. So we have a shared interest in not building uncontrollable AI. We can advance controllable, not autonomous tool AIs that help us with daily tasks, advance medicine, advance proteins, biology, all that great stuff. You don't have to advance uncontrollable AI. That is, this incident should be seen like the August 6, 2001 memo that hit George W. Bush's desk saying Al-Qaeda is planning attacks the United States. We now have very clear evidence as of the last week that the open AI agents will self-organize, burrow in, leave a message board of 70 ,000 messages and lead to this near AI takeover.

22:48So I just want everyone in the world to get, this is that moment where we turn the steering wheel. This is that moment. This is not a movie. It sounds like science fiction, but it is not. Well, Senator Bernie Sanders at the conference today, he said that he will introduce legislation to temporarily ban the development of AI superintelligence until guardrails are put in place. Is a pause on that most advanced AI the solution right now? And is that even possible? So these things are hard, right? And there is a race with China, by the way. But keep in mind, in terms of our unilateral action, right?

23:27The US beat China to the previous technology that I know, social media. But we beat them to the power of this kind of psychological bazooka. We didn't govern it very well. So we actually beat them to kind of flipping around the psychological bazooka and blowing off our own collective brain. We have no shared reality. We've destroyed our attention spans. We have the most anxious, depressed generation in our lifetimes, as of Jonathan Haidt and the anxious brain, the anxious generation. So we're not in a race with China for the technology. We're in a race for controllable AI. If we really want to beat China, we have to beat them to controllable, trustworthy, and tool AI that actually helps us build that pro-human future.

24:02Right now, all of the companies are on a race to replace human labor, not to help, not to help the American worker. The AI companies can't pay back those hundreds of billions of dollars of debt. Is there incentive to capture 20 bucks a month for subscriptions or to capture everyone's salary from everyone's job? That's how they're going to pay back all that debt. So if we want a pro-human future, we have to lock in political power right now. You know, President Trump and some conservative voices are comparing AI concerns to concerns about COVID several years ago. Do you have concerns that this is just becoming too political?

24:41And as I was talking about with Yamiche, our White House correspondent in the last segment, at the moment, President Trump and President Xi Jinping next week are not even set to discuss AI. What do you make sense? What sense do you make of that? Is that realistic that the leaders of these two huge economies wouldn't even discuss it? It wouldn't be top on the agenda. Well, I do hope that they discuss it. And, you know, there's still agency between now and then. And I hope that the people that are meeting their Chinese counterparts right now recognize the moment that we're in. We have evidence we didn't have before.

25:16This is no longer a hypothetical thing. It's important for people to remember that. And this is the most universal issue, right? I mean, I was just downstairs, watched Steve Bannon and Bernie Sanders. When in history did you have Steve Bannon, Bernie Sanders, Susan Rice, Glenn Beck, Ralph Nader, all fighting on the same side, saying this default path is not acceptable? When the scientists, if you had 1 ,300 employees of Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin say, hey, we can't build bigger nukes without them being not controllable. Would you listen to those 1 ,300 employees of Lockheed Martin? I would.

25:48So this is not a controversial topic. We just actually have to have clarity and the evidence speaks for itself. What most people can do is actually just get familiar with what really happened. Sadly, there's not that many great explainers online, but I think that the evidence really speaks for itself. And if you walk someone in China through the exact same evidence, I don't think they would feel more comfortable than you or I feel hearing about these AI swarms. Tristan Harris, thank you so much for your time and your expertise. Absolutely. Thank you. And coming up, President Trump rails against the Supreme Court for blocking his effort to expand federal control over mail-in ballots weeks before the midterm elections.

26:25Plus, breaking news, the Kennedy Center shutting down for at least two years, just hours after a judge rejected the latest effort to put the president's name on the iconic building. You're watching Meet the Press Now. Stay with us.

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28:18Welcome back. President Trump is lashing out at the Supreme Court after it blocked his administration from using the Postal Service to regulate mail-in ballots ahead of the midterms. The president posting on social media today, quote, These are not the people I interviewed to serve on the United States Supreme Court. They are merely a shell of their original selves. In a 7-2 decision last night, the court rejected the Trump administration's request to block a lower court ruling. The president's effort to use the post office to restrict mail ballots was likely unlawful. In a concurring opinion, Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who was nominated to the court by President Trump, wrote that there was a fair prospect the president's order was lawful, but there is not enough time to implement it before November's election.

29:06NBC News senior Supreme Court reporter Lawrence Hurley joins me now. And Lawrence, did the Supreme Court reject the merits of President Trump's argument here, or is this more of an issue of how close we are to election death? Well, it's a bit of both, right, because this case came up as an emergency action, So it's not a full ruling, like one paragraph of description. And it actually said in that paragraph, one of the issues is it's too close to the election to decide this. But they also had this other sentence saying that probably on the merits, if the case gets back to the court, the president would lose.

29:41So the court was saying both things in this one paragraph, which doesn't tell us a whole lot about the details. Well, and you mentioned that, but Justice Kavanaugh, apparently in the concurring opinion, he said that there was a fair prospect that the Postal Service has the authority to regulate mail-in ballots. So what's the likelihood that we're having this conversation once again right before the 2028 election? I think pretty high. I think that the issue is going to be, is the Trump administration going to push forward with this regulation, even though they've got this signal from the Supreme Court that it might not be lawful?

30:14They might want to roll the dice, see if it changes. It seems like they have Justice Kavanaugh. It seems like they have two other justices who dissented last night. So they're starting with three votes. Can they get more? That's something that could happen before the 28th election. Well, the president lashed out at the court today, as you mentioned in the introduction. He said that these are not the people I interviewed to serve on the court. What is the White House saying about that sentiment? Well, of course, we've got used to the president lashing out at the court, as you've said in some recent rulings where he's lost.

30:47We saw the attorney general, Todd Blanche, defend the president in his White House remarks today, which we can hear a little bit of right now. So the fact the president issues a truth saying that the justices that interviewed in front of him, you know, six, seven years ago, eight years ago are not the justices he's seeing now, that that undermines the... No, I don't think in any way, shape, or form it does that. I think that that's just something that the media wants to put on it. He has a... The president should be communicating to the American people about cases that are extraordinarily important to him, which this one is.

31:25Of course, before President Trump took office, it was extremely unusual for any president or any administration to attack justices individually in the way that this administration has done. Lauren Turner, who covers the Supreme Court for us. Laurence, thank you. And we are following breaking news. The Kennedy Center board has voted to close the Performing Arts Center immediately. A source familiar with the matter tells NBC News that the board, which was handpicked by President Trump, voted to close the Kennedy Center for a two-year renovation, arguing that the memorial is in dire structural and financial shape.

32:01The vote came just a few hours after a federal judge blocked the Trump administration's latest attempt to put President Trump's name on the building. The judge writing that the addition would have violated his previous order that Congress would need to approve the move. And this news legal affairs reporter Gary Grumbach joins me now from outside the Kennedy Center. Gary, thanks so much for joining us. Here's what President Trump posted on social media a little more than an hour ago. He wrote that the renovation and reconstruction, which is a very large and complex job, cannot begin until such a time as the D.C.

32:37court rules on the board's approved name. If the ruling is a negative one, which it should not be, and is not overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court, the reconstruction and the renovation of the Kennedy Center will not take place. Doesn't this essentially confirm that the whole renovation fight is about the president getting his name on the Kennedy Center? And can we expect this to lead to a legal challenge? Yeah, Gabe, the president is essentially saying here, if he doesn't get what he wants, he's taking his ball and he's going home. That's very effectively what's happening here. Nobody disagrees that the Kennedy Center needs renovation.

33:11Congresswoman Joyce Beattie, who's bringing this legislation, is saying, yes, absolutely, it needs renovations. It's just a matter about how it's done. Is it going to be closed for two years, completely closed, and they get a several hundred million dollar renovation done? or is it going to be taking four years and they do a partial renovation? The Trump administration argues that it's going to cost$80 million more for them to do a four-year partial renovation than it is for a two-year foreclosure. Well, Gary, can the courts actually just compel the Kennedy Center's board to keep the venue open?

33:45So they can and they already have done that, Gabe. A federal judge here in Washington, D.C., has already said the Kennedy Center cannot close, cannot close because it is a congressionally authorized memorial to John F. Kennedy. And that cannot go away. And so they've already said that once. But I do imagine this will get back up to the district court level, to the appeals court level and eventually, potentially the Supreme Court. And Gary, we understand the president, he actually spoke at today's meeting. What more do we know about what he said? Yeah, he happens to also be the chairman of the Kennedy Center board.

34:21And he spoke at the meeting. He does not have a vote as to this particular situation. But he got into effectively a shouting match with Congresswoman Joyce Beatty, saying that she was the reason that this was all happening and saying that she's liable should anybody get hurt in the Kennedy Center. Because they believe the Kennedy Center, as it stands right now, is unsafe for people to be working in and for people to be visiting. There's currently tours happening at the Kennedy Center. There's several dozen people working in there today. So it's not closed immediately, immediately, as they say.

34:51But in the coming days, this is going to end up closed and we're going to be back right in court. And Gary, while I have you really quickly, in a legal filing last month, the Kennedy Center board threatened to demolish the building if the president's name wasn't put on it. Is that threat, does that appear any more imminent now? Could the center be demolished? so that was a threat that was put into a filing by a department of justice lawyer it was very soon after walked back by commerce secretary howard lutnick who is a supporter of the renovations happening though not a member of the kennedy center board it does not appear that that's going to actually happen and congresswoman joyce beady's team is taking the threat seriously of course but they also don't think that this is actually going to end up being demolished and the kennedy center has said in recent months that you will not be able to see through the building during the renovations.

35:42It's purely going to be happening step by step. Gabe? Gary Grumbach reporting live for us outside the Kennedy Center. Gary, thank you. And up next, the FBI releases thousands of new documents about the attempted assassination of President Trump at a 2024 campaign rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, including details on the gunman's background and upbringing. Stay with us. You're watching Meet the Press Now.

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37:45Welcome back. Now to breaking news and new details about the man who attempted to assassinate Donald Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania two years ago. The FBI has posted online thousands of pages of documents related to its investigation of Thomas Crooks, who was killed by a Secret Service sniper after he shot and wounded President Trump during a rally in July of 2024. Those documents include interviews with Crooks' neighbors and professors, as well as people who'd attended the Butler rally. The documents are part of a Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Chuck Grassley's investigation into the Butler assassination attempt.

38:21And joining me now here on set is NBCU senior justice reporter Ryan Reilly. Ryan, why exactly are we seeing these documents now? Yeah, so Chuck Grassley's team has sort of pushed for, I think, more releases here, and they've worked closely with the FBI. So I think some documents have come out of that. But, you know, broadly speaking, I think this is something that people are interested in because there isn't that much of a clear motivation. You know, there was not like this letter that said, this is exactly why I do it. You know, people were sort of expecting this to fit into sort of a clean box about this is what motivated this.

38:54Let's answer the questions. And, of course, you know, given that the attempted assassin is dead, we're never really going to necessarily be able to get inside his mind. And there's only been some sort of limited insights that we've really gotten as a result of the electronic devices and whatnot that he left behind. Yeah, and the documents reveal that an anonymous donor paid for Crooks' cremation. What other new information did we learn from this release? I think that was the headline that Grassley's team sort of put out here. I think that's and you don't necessarily know who that could be. Right.

39:25That could be a family friend. That could be something. But overall, what I think those sort of stories end up doing is fueling a lot of questions about what was going on here. And we saw a post from President Donald Trump today saying that there was this Democratic effort to go go after him. He used the opportunity to attack Chris Wray. But, you know, obviously, some might be the best disinfectant in some of this. So additional information coming out could help, you know, answer a lot of those outstanding questions that people have. But overall, Kash Patel really emphasized during his testimony on the Hill today that there's been no indication that any other individuals were involved in this plot.

40:01And I think that that is something that all the documents that we've seen thus far really support. There was not this allegation that he was, you know, incited to do this or brought it or told to do this by anyone else. This really did seem to be something that he was organizing on his own. You mentioned Kash Patel testifying on Capitol Hill. What else did we learn from his testimony? What were your takeaways? Yeah, I mean, in terms of substance, we didn't end up really getting to a lot. There's a lot of shouting matches between him and especially those Democratic senators there. He came, in fact, one of the photographers captured him with this sheet sort of with these talking points of attack lines to use against Democratic members of Congress.

40:40And I think that that has reflected what we've seen in the in the past from him, where he comes sort of ready to go and ready to spar. And those are the sort of moments that ultimately go viral. But I don't know that we you know, there was a ton of substance. It really did kind of just devolve into this, you know, back and forth political fight. We shall see in a few months, though, about whether or not, you know, there will be actual powers, because right now all Democrats can essentially do is ask questions. But, you know, depending on what happens in Congress, both on the Senate and on the House side, you know, we could see a much different makeup in a few months.

41:12And, you know, there could be some more ability for Democrats to sort of hold Kash Patel to account. Ryan Riley, our senior justice reporter. Ryan, thank you. And after the break, battlegrounds and the battle over AI. We're live in Michigan, where a heated debate over data centers is shaking up some of the biggest midterm races. Don't go anywhere. This is Meet the Press Now.

41:45Welcome back. Amid the fight over AI on Capitol Hill, backlash to the data centers that help power the industry is growing across the country as Americans voice concerns about the potential environmental and financial impact on their communities. Later today, we're expecting the House to vote on a bill that would compel tech companies to pay for data center construction. My colleague Shaquille Brewster has been on the ground in Battleground, Michigan, where the issue has been front and center in a number of midterm races. He's been talking to voters about how it's impacting them and how they'll vote.

42:19How does this impact, you know, with the election coming up? How does this impact how you view candidates in November? Again, I think it's a major concern. I think it's one of the top issues for me. It's interesting how nonpartisan it is here. This is bringing a lot of people together, odd bedfellows, and it does feel like a kind of a movement that's going to affect probably the midterms. We're not against AI. We're not against new technology, but it's all about location, right? There's not enough energy here in Michigan to support these data centers. And Shaq joins me now from Michigan. Shaq, it is good to see you.

42:55We just heard some of your conversations about data centers in Michigan right there. It's clearly an issue that's motivating a lot of people. Do you get the sense that this could move some of those battleground races that we're watching in the state? I think it definitely can, Gabe. I think if you listen to those folks you just heard from, the last two of them said that they voted for President Trump in the last election. The gentleman there said that he's a lifelong conservative, but he finds himself looking at the progressive candidate in that toss up congressional district, Will Lawrence, saying that he will likely back the Democrat in that race because of this issue.

43:36I think, you know, if you're having these debates happen all across the country, you're seeing these shifts also happen across the country. And I think it's something that's also very animating. This is something that has catapulted to the top three issues that voters care about. And I think it could ultimately impact what they do in November. So, Shaq, in your conversations, did you get the sense that some of this backlash over data centers is a proxy for Americans' overall apprehension over AI? I mean, there's two issues. There's the issue of the data centers and the NIMBY syndrome here, where they may not want those data centers in their backyard, too much energy.

44:14But also there's this growing apprehension about AI systems potentially growing rogue. Do you see those issues, both of them kind of merging together at this point, or is it mostly focused on data centers there on the ground? Definitely. It's a bunch of small little issues. I think the one commonality is that people feel like they don't want the data center in their backyard. But several people I spoke with yesterday and even who I talked to today, they said they use AI. They're comfortable with AI. They sometimes use it on a daily basis for work. That is not the basis of their opposition. Their opposition is the idea that AI companies are imposing this on them, that they don't feel like they have a say in their local communities and that this is a way.

44:58When they show up to town halls, when they express outrage at proposals that we saw yesterday, this is their way of fighting back against that. But you mentioned there are so many concerns. There are environmental concerns that some people have, the noise that they're known for producing. But it's many different factors that are saying, hey, we don't want this in our backyard. Well, Shaq, another big issue for voters, obviously, remains the economy. What do you hear from voters on that front? Yeah. Yeah, they're not feeling good about the economy at all. For some, they're connecting the data center issue to the economy with the concern and fear that it could raise utility rates.

45:33Many of the corporations are saying that's not exactly completely true here. But listen to some of the conversations I've been having. I got two children and, you know, stuff's not getting cheaper anywhere around. We're in one of the worst spots we've ever been in. Again, all of my bills have exponentially increased. My grocery bill, my utility bills, everything has gone up. Everything is so much more expensive. Gas is not going down. It's only going up. How does the mood that you have, the feeling that you have about the economy, how does that impact what you do in November? Um, I'm definitely voting progressive because I've seen conservative and it does not, it just doesn't work.

46:22Definitely a warning sign in this battleground state, which again, there are several competitive House races. And of course, that competitive Senate race, all of which could determine which party gets control of Congress in November. Gabe. Shaq Brewster joining us live from Michigan. Shaq, thank you. And turning now to a developing political story in another state with a very closely watched Senate race. A number of Texas Republicans are now denouncing online posts from a member of their own party as racist. Beau French, the Republican candidate for Texas Railroad Commissioner, posted multiple photos of University of Texas students at a home football game, most of whom appear to be people of color, including xenophobic captions like this one, I heard UT graduation this year looked like this.

47:11I didn't believe it. The problem is now obviously far worse than anyone imagined. Many statewide Republican officials have condemned the French's post, as well as outgoing Senator John Cornyn, who posted, We should all condemn this bigotry directed at our fellow Texans, or we will soon find ourselves a minority party. Joining me now is NBC's Ryan Chandler from Texas. Ryan, you've been speaking to students who were sitting in the section highlighted by French. What are you hearing from them? Well, Gabe, there's a lot of disappointment, but also a lot of solidarity on the University of Texas campus.

47:47You know, first, let's just recognize that the argument that Beau French is trying to make there rests on a couple of assumptions. First, he just assumed that the students with brown skin that he saw in that photo were not citizens, as he called them, foreigners. And then he implies that because of that, they're not welcome or qualified to be at the University of Texas. I know from my time at that university, Gabe, that there was a good chance not only are many of those students Texas born citizens, but some of the most academically accomplished students in the state. And that's what the reporting has borne out.

48:20I spoke with one young woman, a sophomore in the McCombs Business School, one of the most competitive in the country. She says that she was sitting in that section that French highlighted. And here's what she said about the students there and her reaction to the backlash. Everyone who's there at that game who came to watch Texas play, like we all bleed orange. Like the color of our skin doesn't matter. Like we're all Longhorns. We want to support our team. All the people in that video, all my friends were either born in Texas or born in the United States, raised here. And so for him to use us as like.

48:58I don't like a talking point to then go into something else, like it just didn't make sense to me. And I just I felt like it was once again, like blatant racism.

49:11Yeah, many Republican officials across the state pointing out that, look, the UT admission system is as close to a pure meritocracy as you can get. If you're in the top 5%, you're automatically admitted regardless of any other factors. And if you're in those stands, you're certainly somebody that the University of Texas wants there. You know, Ryan, French has had a history of controversial online comments, but this, of course, seems to be very next level. How significant is the backlash to French's campaign? Well, you're right. This is not the first time that he has made blatantly racist comments.

49:47The difference now is, in all likelihood, it looks like he's on his way to statewide office after the November election. There are some Republicans who notably say they'll be voting for a Democrat for the first time. His Democratic opponent, John Rosenthal, including Karl Rove, he called French a bigot and said that the Republican Party cannot let this stand. We also saw Cornyn there warn that things like this risk them becoming a minority party.

50:18Ryan Chandler, thank you. And still to come, government Wattox warn that the Iran war has fueled a shortfall in U.S. munitions and a rise in inflation. That story is next. You're watching Meet the Press Now.

50:38And welcome back. Oil prices are again surging today amid continued supply disruptions in the Middle East. It all comes as a new report from the Congressional Budget Office estimates that the Iran war is responsible for a significant portion of the increase in prices here in the U.S. Meanwhile, the Pentagon's inspector general is warning that the conflict has led to a shortfall of U.S. munitions. Defense Secretary Pete Hexeth has denied reports that the U.S. is running low in munitions. And the president on Monday said the U.S. is producing more exquisite and elite weapons than at any time in American history.

51:16Joining me now is M.C. New Senior National Security Correspondent Courtney Kuby. Courtney, you have been reporting on the munitions shortfall for quite a while. How does this report line up to what you've been hearing from sources? So, I mean, it's not a surprise that the stockpiles are low and they are depleted, and they continue to be depleted every time there's these back and forth between the U.S. and Iran. President Trump is right that the U.S. is increasing very slowly but steadily increasing their production of these systems. It's just that we aren't seeing the fruits of that yet. What we are seeing is some of these large companies build new facilities to increase their production, but we're not actually seeing the production lines with large numbers of these exquisite weapons, as he said.

52:00The concern here is that if, in fact, this back and forth with Iran continues over weeks, months, or even longer, that the U.S. stockpiles will get to a point where it will take years to actually bring them back up so that if the U.S. were to face another adversary or a resumption of major combat operations against Iran, they can carry out a longer-term conflict. That's the real concern here. And as we mentioned, Courtney, the Congressional Budget Office just came out with its estimate for how much the war is costing so far, about$38 billion in the first five months and that it's helping to drive inflation.

52:34But that's only a portion of the costs associated with the war, right? Yeah. I mean, that's really just a snapshot. So that includes the biggest part of that is munitions and loss of aircraft and large systems that have been destroyed or damaged during the course of the war. So that doesn't include things like infrastructure bases that were damaged. What's really key from the CBO's report is the ongoing cost. So right now, even though the U.S. is not in a major combat operation, there's these continuing costs of the conflict with Iran. And it's anywhere between two to three billion dollars per month right now.

53:09And that doesn't include if there's some sort of a back and forth with Iran. So if the U.S. is having to defend against Iranian ballistic missiles or drones, all of those munitions add up on the cost. So the U.S. is still spending, again, And we're not hearing about the back and forth firing between Iran today or yesterday or maybe even tomorrow. But the U.S. is still spending billions of dollars every single month on the ongoing conflict there. A lot to follow there. Courtney Kuby, our senior national security correspondent. Courtney, thank you. And thank you for watching. I'm Gabe Gutierrez, and we're back tomorrow with more Meet the Press Now.

53:44There is more ahead on NBC News Now. Stay with us. To every clinician finishing notes at 9 p.m., there is a faster way. Whisperflow is a voice-to-text app. You talk, it types in your EHR, your email, anywhere you type. Say the progress note, the referral letter, the patient instructions, and it comes out clean and formatted with your terminology spelled right. Four times faster than typing and HIPAA ready. Whisperflow is free. Get it at whisperflow.ai. That's W-I-S-P-R flow dot A-I.