Oct. 25 — Sen. Adam Schiff, Mike Rogers, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer

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1:00Kristen Welker: This Sunday, final push. If we lose, you get nothing. With just nine days until the midterms, the final sprint for control of Congress. We are building a movement to take back our state and take back our country. If we lose Texas, we lose America. And from Texas to Michigan, the closing arguments are getting personal. We need to know, are you for America or are you for these terrorist groups? To bring into question, my commitment to the Constitution is really beneath you. Steve Kornacki takes us inside the races to watch. My guest this morning, Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. And on the fight for Michigan, Republican Senate candidate Mike Rogers and Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

1:45Kristen Welker: Plus, Ohio Low. Bipartisan backlash crows over an attack ad in the Ohio governor's race. as Republican Vivek Ramaswamy releases an ad featuring his opponent's estranged mother reviving a painful history of childhood sexual abuse. I would just urge the Ramaswamy campaign to take this down. It's just wrong. And the closer. Former President Barack Obama hits the campaign trail in Michigan, taking aim at President Trump in the final days before the midterms. He's got the White House looking like Saddam Hussein opened a cheesecake factory. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Garrett Haake, former Democratic Senator Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, and former Republican Governor Pat McCrory of North Carolina.

2:37Kristen Welker: Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press. From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history, This is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker. Good Sunday morning. With just nine days until the midterms, a new and extraordinary legal battle over the election results is already underway. The Trump Justice Department is suing over Alaska's Senate race, arguing that two candidates with the same name could confuse voters and seeking to block certification if incumbent Republican Senator Dan Sullivan loses. But certifying election results is a state responsibility, not the Justice Department's.

3:22Kristen Welker: It all comes as Democrats gain ground in the battle for control of Congress. And as the current and a former president barnstorm in critical Michigan, we will dive into the race in Michigan momentarily. But first, NBC News chief data analyst Steve Kornacki is live for us this morning at the big board. Steve, nine days to go. What's the state of play? Yeah, it's the homestretch, Kristen, looking at battle for the Senate right here. And again, Republicans trying to hang on. They are vulnerable in a number of places. That's what the red is. These are Republican held seats that Democrats are targeting.

3:57There are also some Democratic held seats in blue here that Republicans think they might have a chance at. Republicans needing to lose no more than three seats here or they lose control of the Senate. The other question in the homestretch, can the parties expand this map at all? Democrats now, you might have heard, they're spending a little bit of money, surprisingly, in Mississippi. Republican-held seat right there. And the Republicans, meanwhile, they think, look out for Minnesota, they're saying. Democratic-held seat. And why Minnesota? There's a national tide that might be working against Republicans.

4:27But in Minnesota, state Medicaid fraud scandal there that might be hurting the Democrats polling, indicating.

4:33Kristen Welker: Well, and Steve, we can't emphasize this enough. So many of these states are states that President Trump won big in in 2024. Yeah, I mean, take a look here. You see North Carolina, by the way, both parties sending signals. They think that one might be likely to flip. But even if it does, right, there is only one state here in this battleground that Democrats are trying to flip that Trump didn't win in 2024. That's Maine. Kamala Harris won it by seven. So if the Democrats were to get North Carolina, if they were to get Maine, they still need at least two more here. And ultimately, they're going to be having to look at a state like Alaska, Iowa, Texas, and win at least two states like that, double-digit Trump states.

5:13Now, the flip side of that is if you look at Trump's approval rating in those states, there is some softness there. I mean, take a look. These are, again, double-digit Trump states, 44 % approval rating in Iowa, 42 % rating in Ohio there. So there's some fortification for Republicans, but there's some softness for Trump. It's an interesting dynamic in those states. and look a little closer here, some of the key demographics that I think are going to decide this. Taking a look in Texas, we heard so much the Hispanic vote. Trump surged with the Hispanic vote in 2024. Here's where you see it. Go to deep south Texas here, Cameron County.

5:45This is where Brownsville, Texas is. Look at this. In 2016, Trump lost this county by 33 points to Hillary Clinton by 2024. Basically a 40-point reversal. He won it by six. Keep an eye on this one on election night because this is an overwhelmingly Hispanic county. Take a look in Ohio here. Blue-collar voters here. Talk about Youngstown, Ohio, Mahoning County here. Again, this was for a long time a very Democratic county. Barack Obama won it by nearly 30 points. Look what Donald Trump did in 2024. Almost double digits. If Sherrod Brown, the Democrat, is going to win that Senate race, this is the kind of county he needs to win back for Democrats.

6:24And then take a look here in Michigan. This is where Republicans think they might be playing offense here. trying to defeat Abdul El-Sayed, the Democratic nominee. Where to look here, I think, is Oakland County. This is one of the giants in the state. This is the big suburban county just north of Detroit. You see it here. And like a lot of these suburban counties nationally, it's moved towards the Democrats in the last decade or two. But it's an 11-point Harris win in 2024. I think when those results come in an election night, if El-Sayed's underperforming, which is what Republicans are saying, if this margin's in single digits in Oakland, trouble for Democrats.

7:00If the margin is well into double digits, I'll say it's looking good.

7:03Kristen Welker: Well, we'll be watching closely. And of course, the biggest stars in the party are heading to Michigan. Former President Barack Obama was there on Saturday. President Trump heads there later today to campaign for Rogers. Yeah, it's you can see here, Democrats cannot afford to lose a seat like this, just given the math they're looking at everywhere else. All right. Well, just fascinating nine days. Here we go. Steve Kornacki, thank you so much. Great stuff. And remember, for more expert analysis in the final stretch to the midterms, you can subscribe to the Data Dive with Steve Kornacki out every Tuesday at NBCNews.com slash Data Dive.

7:39Kristen Welker: Meanwhile, as he cast an early ballot in Florida, President Trump said on Saturday he ordered the Justice Department's lawsuit over Alaska's Senate race. It is a totally corrupt weaponization situation, and they shouldn't be allowed to do it. So I recommended it to the DOJ. They looked at it. They agreed with me, and they've gone to court. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Adam Schiff of California. Senator Schiff, welcome back to Meet the Press. Great to be with you. Great to have you back. Well, nine days to go. You're going to be out on the campaign trail, North Carolina, Georgia, New Hampshire.

8:19Kristen Welker: Do you believe that Democrats can win back control of the House and the Senate, Senator? I do believe we can flip both houses. And for the reason that the main issue facing Americans is that their cost of living has gone up so dramatically. And a lot of it is due to the corruption that pervades this administration, an administration that is looking out for itself, making money, hand over fist for the president, for his family, while leaving regular families to struggle. And that is the dominant issue. And I think voters are going to turn out because their lives have not been made better by this president.

8:55And they're going to vote accordingly. We are ahead in every state we need to hold. We are narrowly ahead in enough states we need to flip the Senate. Of course, we're all distrustful of polling. So I say that with some circumspection. But I think if the election were held today, we would win both houses. And the question is, can our candidates hold against this onslaught of big, dark money pockets like Elon Musk, the MAGA fund and all the rest? We're being outspent. Can we hold? So far, we're holding.

9:26Kristen Welker: Well, Senator, let me ask you, because if Democrats do take back control of Congress, I think a lot of voters want to know how you see your mandate. What do you believe the top issue should be for Democrats? What's the top issue they should tackle? Cost of living. We should do exactly what we are campaigning on, and that is focus singularly on how do we bring the cost of life, the cost of food and medicine and rent and more. How do we bring it down? How do we make it possible that if you're working hard in America, you can provide for yourself and your family? That should be the focus of our positive legislative agenda, ending things like the tariff wars, the Iran war, and other things that are just driving costs higher.

10:12But also it should be the focus of our oversight to look into the rampant corruption because the cost of that corruption is higher prices for the American people. If the administration is approving mergers that reduce competition and raise costs for consumers, not because it's in the country's interest, but because someone's making a buck, companies are paying the president's family or they're paying to have their name on a ballroom, then the American people need to know. And what's more, it's going to be important to find out to bring costs down.

10:41Kristen Welker: Let me ask you about this big news out of the Justice Department. President Trump says he told DOJ to sue to block Alaska's Senate race certification if Republicans lose. And just to explain to our viewers, the issue here is that the incumbent is named Senator Daniel S. Sullivan. There is another candidate who is on the ballot named Daniel Sullivan. And I think we have a look at the ballot right here. The argument is this could confuse voters. Does DOJ have a point here? What's your reaction to the lawsuit, Senator? No, they don't have a point. And what's more, they don't have standing to bring this kind of a suit.

11:24It's not the federal government's business to run Alaskan elections. It's Alaska's business to do that. And they've already adjudicated this question. And the Justice Department knows this, but it just shows how complicit they are now in the Trump campaign to try to subvert the elections. Back in 2020, when the president was likewise trying to challenge an election he lost, he tried to enlist the support of the Justice Department. He told top DOJ lawyers, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest of the Republican congressmen. And to him, well, they refused. Bill Barr crossed a lot of ethical lines, but there was one he refused to cross, which was trying to overturn a legitimate election.

12:03This time with Blanche, they're all in on this disgraceful campaign. So this suit has no chance of succeeding. But the fact that Todd Blanche and the Justice Department are willing to go along with it, they're willing to put their name on it, is an indication of how far they will go after this election is over to try to challenge the results. And the best remedy for the American people is make sure this isn't close anywhere. Turn out in overwhelming numbers. Use every effort to intimidate as further reason to turn out and vote.

12:36Kristen Welker: Well, you take me to my next question, Senator. Are you confident that Democrats will accept the result of an election if they narrowly lose one of these big races? Yes, we will abide by the elections. We will abide by the process. And we are going to fight vigorously anyone who tries to interfere with that process. The states are capable of conducting their own elections. That's what they're going to do. And we are more than fully prepared for whatever the administration throws our way. And we've had to prepare because we saw the president go to the length of inciting a violent attack on the Capitol the last time he lost.

13:14And he is desperately afraid of losing because he has failed to bring prices down. He's failed the American people. His central campaign pledge when he ran for president was to bring down costs on day one. and yet the cost of everything has gone up. Farmers can't afford to plow their fields. They can't afford diesel. American families can't afford their medicine. They can't afford food. And the president's actions have just made things worse. And he knows it. His policies are deeply unpopular. He's deeply unpopular. And his remedy is not to try to change policies, but to try to change the election by interfering with it.

13:49Kristen Welker: Let me ask you about a big debate right now inside the Democratic Party. If Democrats do win back control of Congress, it's about impeachment. You, of course, led the first impeachment of President Trump back in 2019. As we sit here today, Senator, do you believe that President Trump has committed impeachable offenses? I feel the same way I did early in the Russia investigation, which is you don't prejudge the outcome before you even do the oversight. And so what I'm suggesting that we do is, first of all, focus on exactly what we're campaigning on. And that is our primary, our focus needs to be on bringing costs down.

14:30So our oversight should focus on that. It should focus on the corruption that is driving costs up. If that corruption leads in the direction of impeachment, it will lead wherever it leads. but we should put our overriding emphasis not on impeachment, but on bringing the cost down for the American people on our affirmative agenda, on our oversight agenda. Yes, our investigative agenda, but it should be with an eye to improving the quality of life for the American people.

14:58Kristen Welker: Well, some of your Democratic colleagues, Senator Schatz, Duckworth have said that impeaching President Trump for a third time would be a mistake. It would backfire. Do you share those concerns? Should you take impeachment off the table? I share the concern that we move away from any focus on the cost of living. But I also reserve the judgment to say, hey, when we investigated this corruption, this is where it has led us. But we need to focus on exactly what is concerning the American people, and that's their ability to provide for their family. And yes, there are things outside of that prism that we'll need looking into.

15:36We're going to need to look into, for example, Starlink and Elon Musk's decision or the president's decision to throttle it down and cripple Ukraine's defense. There are going to be other things that are not purely within the lens of cost of living that need to be looked into. But our primary focus has to be the needs of the American people.

15:54Kristen Welker: Senator, quickly, you raised Starlink. And just to explain this idea that Starlink and Starshield were slowed down in Ukraine, you have called for a Senate investigation into Elon Musk. Would you call anyone from the administration to testify on this matter should Democrats win back control of Senate? Absolutely. The defense secretary, Secretary Hegs, that should be brought in. Anyone who has knowledge of what happened, you've got the president saying one thing. You've got Elon Musk saying another thing. You have them both saying different things at different times. Somebody is lying here. Maybe they're all lying in different ways.

16:31But we need to find out. Certainly the world's richest person shouldn't be controlling our national security interests. That is a spectacular threat to our national security, if it is true. We should find out. Something isn't adding up here. I saw Elon Musk today tweet that they're just preventing Ukraine from violating their policies. Something changed within the last week. What was it that changed? Why did it change? What impact is it having on Ukraine's ability to defend itself? Is this in our national security interests? These are the questions we should ask, which, frankly, Republicans have been unwilling to ask.

17:09Kristen Welker: All right. Senator Adam Schiff, thank you so very much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. And when we come back, Republican Senate candidate Mike Rogers joins me next.

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18:57Kristen Welker: Welcome back. And joining me now is the Republican nominee for Senate in Michigan, former Congressman Mike Rogers. Congressman Rogers, welcome back to Meet the Press. Thank you, Kristen. It's good to be here. Thank you so much for being here on this very busy Sunday for you. I know that President Trump is going to be out in Michigan campaigning with you a little bit later on today. Let me ask you, Congressman, is a vote for you a vote for the Trump agenda?

19:28I'm apologizing. I'm having some difficulty in my earpiece, but is a vote for you? I'm not sure. I'll tell you what a vote for me is. It's a great day for the state of Michigan. We've lived under all the policies that the Democrats have just talked about, even on your show, about bringing down prices. For the last eight years, we've had Democrats control our state, both of the U.S. Senate seats and Lansing, Michigan. We have the highest utility rates in the Midwest. We have the highest auto insurance rates in the country. Our education has gone down all the way to 46th in the country. Two-thirds of our fourth graders can't read in the fourth grade level.

20:08And if you can't read in the fourth grade level, you have a 70 % chance of going to prison or being on welfare. So I present solutions for all of that. And if you're going to have the president of the United States of one party for the next two years, why not send somebody back that can work with the state, or excuse me, work with the president to get some of these things fixed. And the things that we disagree with on some of the Canadian tariffs, wrapping up the Iran war, better to have somebody that can work to that conclusion than just go back to poke him in the eye and increase our costs all across the state with their Green New Deal that they're pushing with Bernie Sanders and AOC and others coming right here in the state.

20:47Kristen Welker: Okay. And I want to make sure you can hear me clearly as I'm asking you these questions. Are you able to hear me clearly, Congressman? There we go. Great. There we go. All right. Wonderful. Sorry. You raised the issue of tariffs. So let me ask you about that. You have broken to some extent with President Trump on the issue of tariffs. You've called for an end to the trade war with Canada. If you were elected, would you vote to repeal some of President Trump's tariffs? Well, again, the best way to do this is walk in and say, can we work this out? And I'll give you a great example how I've done that.

21:30I'm not even in office yet. I've been trying to get Canadian trash from coming across our border and dumping in our landfills for over a decade. And I left Congress in 2014. We still couldn't quite get it done. Called the administration and said, hey, we need some help on these Canadian tariffs. But if you're going to tariff anything, tariff this trash that's filling up our landfills from what the third largest landmass country in the world. And guess what? They announced this week that they were going to tariff those trash trucks. That's what you get when you send somebody back who can work with the president.

22:05You know, the automobile portion of these Canadian tariffs worries me a little bit, and we're going to go back and work through those issues to get some relief to make sure that it's good for Michigan, not bad for Michigan. There are other tariffs, Chris, and this is what I think people don't hear, is the fact that we have the Chevrolet Silverado being built in Mexico. By next year, they've announced it's coming back to Michigan. Why? Because of those tariffs that are based on getting reshoring of manufacturing back in the United States. That's huge for us. It's a multi-billion dollar investment right here in Michigan.

22:39The Detroit Diesel is adding a third shift. They haven't done that in a couple of decades because of reshoring opportunities coming back. These small fabricators around the state actually getting more work because companies want to operate here in manufacturing to try to avoid what they've had as a free ride in the trade negotiations. So there's some good and there's some things we have to work on.

23:03Kristen Welker: Okay. Let me ask you about one of the big issues that you've raised in this campaign, which is Abdul El-Sayed, your challenger's background. President Trump posted overnight calling Abdul El-Sayed a Muslim Brotherhood jihadist who hates Jews and blacks and Americans. As you know, there's no evidence to support any of those claims. Do you agree with the president, Congressman? Yes or no? Boy, you and I don't understand the national press. They have to work and twist themselves in knots not to understand Abdul's relationship with the thinking of the Muslim Brotherhood. When you write a letter, it's supporting of Morrissey in 2012 and 2013, saying you should purge the police and purge the media.

23:55And by the way, he will not answer this question. Look at the New York Times, who said he just won't answer this question. There's a reason he has getting money from groups that support the Muslim Brotherhood, money from groups that support Hamas and Hezbollah. That's a thinking issue. I wore the uniform of the United States, Kristen, so that people could vote any way that they want to in this country. It's not how you pray. It's how you think. And that has a consequence.

24:22Kristen Welker: OK, Congressman, he has denied and denounced the Muslim Brotherhood and denied any ties to them. No, he has not. He dismissed the question. No, he did not, Kristen. He did an interview with me. I don't know why he gave this guy a pass. He has not. He won't answer the New York Times. the new york times he won't answer a local newspaper no i don't let me let's talk about you're giving him a pass on something he should be held accountable okay let's talk about that 2012 letter i want to give folks some context i get it 2012 egyptians were rising up this guy no i think it's unbelievable let me just give him accountable we have held him accountable we've asked him hard questions america ought to look like let me let me just give some context to the 2012 letter that you're talking about.

25:06Kristen Welker: Egyptians were rising up against a brutal dictatorship. Al-Sayed, as you said, he joined that letter, which supported the protesters against Egypt's dictator, not the Muslim Brotherhood as a group. But this is what you said, Congressman, in 2012. I want to put up what you said at the time. Do I think there are moderate Muslim Brotherhood individuals we are going to have to reach out to and talk to? Yes. But we are going to have to watch it carefully. Do you acknowledge that at the time in 2012, you were willing to work with some moderate members, as you said, of the Muslim Brotherhood? That is so much out of control.

25:46I wish you would have done this for Abdul El Saeed. That would have been a great interview. But what you're doing now is trying to twist this thing to defend your position for letting him lie to you. I don't have a position. Congressman, respectfully, I don't have a position. Here, let me tell you what that was about. I'm happy to talk to you about what that was about. So what happened was we had relationships where Israel and Egypt had relationships in their intelligence services that the Muslim Brotherhood was trying to undo. And what that would have meant is more violence in the region. So as chairman of the Intelligence Committee, I said, we're going to have to find a way to try to not sever that relationship, which they did, by the way.

26:23And so, listen, there are when you talk about the Muslim Brotherhood as an ideology, it's a political group. Five Muslim countries have banned the Muslim Brotherhood because they're so extreme. And Abdul El-Sayed not only has family relations, which he lied about, he not only had his own letter that he said supporting them, including purging the press. I don't know about you, but you should probably be concerned about that. And secondly, you have this idea that the Muslim Brotherhood. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I got it. You're trying to defend Abdul. I understand that. The other part of that is the Muslim Brotherhood, only one candidate in the country did they support a primary win.

27:06One, Abdul El-Sayed. The money that he gets ought to be a factor in this. So you take his way he thinks, the way he supported them. And by the way, the Muslim Brotherhood immediately started making women as second class citizens. I think that's an issue. I mean, that's just not consistent with American value. And so if you're going to elect somebody to go to the United States Senate who wants to be on the Foreign Affairs Committee, we probably should know this. And as a former FBI guy, I can tell you this, Kristen, when you lie about who you are, he said he was a physician. He's not. When he said he's a dual citizen of Egypt, we don't think he does have an MD.

27:46Say that you're an immigrant from North Africa. Those are disqualifying for you because you've lied about who you are.

27:52Kristen Welker: Congressman, I'm asking you about your words and the word and pushing back. I asked Abdul El-Sahid plenty of tough questions. I'm asking you across Michigan have reached out to our campaign and are as concerned. Congressman, Congressman, let me ask you about your words. Let me ask you about your words and the words of President Trump. President Trump says your opponent is a violent terrorist, violent. Again, there's just no proof of that. And he has denounced. He was asked directly if he denounces the Muslim Brotherhood. He has. Do you agree with calling him a violent terrorist? That's not true.

28:27Kristen Welker: Hold on. Do you agree with calling him a violent terrorist? You know what he did? He said, the guy said, are you going to answer the question? Hold on. Will you disavow? He said, yeah, absolutely. Do you agree with calling him a violent terrorist? Is that up to your standard? No, I don't. I've never called him a terrorist. I've never called him a terrorist. This election is about me versus Abdul. I mean, he's a Democrat socialist of America aligned candidate who has these pretty radical support groups that don't like America. I think those are issues people ought to decide their election on. And by the way, we've lived under what their policies are and we've got higher prices and higher taxes here in Michigan under the Democrat control.

29:06And what they're talking about doing is making that worse here.

29:11Kristen Welker: Congressman, we're almost out of time. So let me just ask you big picture. Do you consider yourself to be a MAGA Republican? Listen, I'm going to tell you something. This is I get you guys on the national press, but this is a little bit disgusting to me. You know what you don't cover? The chairman of the Democrat Party just came out and said he cannot the former chairman. Sorry. He cannot vote for Abdul, the current senator's finance chairman. Congressman, I'm asking you about you. I'm just asking about you. This is important. This is important. But it's not answering my question. Because the Democrat coalitions that we have are the fastest growing coalitions we have.

29:53Jewish Democrats say we can't vote for him. African Americans in Detroit and Pontiac and Flint say we can't vote for him.

30:00Kristen Welker: Senator Cory Booker came after a meeting and said, this guy is a fringe candidate. Congressman, what about Muslim members of your community who feel alienated by what you are saying? What do you say to those constituents? Well, you know what I say to the ones who are calling our campaign on every day and saying, this worries us? Remember, the Muslim Brotherhood is banned in five Muslim countries. This is not about Islam. It's not about how he prays. It is about his adherence to this radical Islamic agenda. When you're here in Michigan, guess what? A lot of the Muslims here are part of our community and an important part of our fabric here.

30:40And what happens with that is they understand that they don't want to bring that hate, that division, and that anger here. Which is why this huge Democrat coalition is building around. All you all want to do is talk about something else on the ground.

30:54Kristen Welker: Are you a Mac or a Republican? I've already answered the question, Kristen. That's just what I want to know. Do you consider yourself to be a Mac or Republican? Kristen, I'm going to go right back through this. There is a reason we have support from people in Detroit and Flint and Pontiac, because we're there talking about issues, talking about their needs and future. And this guy is too extreme for them. He comes in and alienates these communities. Nobody wants to talk about it on national press. We invite you to come to Michigan, talk to some of these people. I think you'll have a very different opinion if you're open to it.

31:27Kristen Welker: OK, we really appreciate your time, Congressman Mike Rogers, in this home stretch. Thank you so much. And when we come back, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer joins me next.

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33:10Kristen Welker: welcome back joining me now is the democratic governor of michigan gretchen whitmer governor whitmer welcome back to meet the press good morning good morning thank you for being here let's start with the state of play in michigan you backed hailey stevens of course in the democratic primary looking at where things stand right now what's your message to democrats who are still on the fence who are not convinced that they're going to vote for Abdul El-Sayed? Well, I think this is an important moment. We know that the cost of living, the brutal costs that have been put onto the American people through tariffs and a war with Iran has made life so much harder for Michiganders.

33:55And that's precisely why it's important that we support the Democratic ticket. That's why I am out campaigning and will be through Election Day. But this is a moment where we need leaders in Washington, D.C., who will hold the president and the White House accountable, will fight to bring down tariffs and the chaos that has been created by this administration.

34:17Kristen Welker: Let me ask you, because you saw my exchange with Congressman Mike Rogers, who's leaning into what he has argued are these alleged associations with family members, with Abdul El-Sayed, with the Muslim Brotherhood, which Abdul El-Sayed has denied. How do you think Abdul El-Sayed has handled that? Has he answered for that firmly enough? I want to say what we're seeing across the country is Republicans who are trying to change the conversation. The last thing they want to talk about is how they make people's lives better because they don't have a plan. They are so tied with the Trump administration, tariffs, and war with Iran.

34:57And so they're not talking about the things that really matter to voters. And I, having won Michigan twice by large margins, I always was able to build a coalition with a variety of diverse groups of voters. And that's always my advice to anyone running statewide Michigan. You've got to build bridges with all of these communities. Everyone in Michigan matters. We've got to hear from them. We've got to make sure that we're fighting for them.

35:21Kristen Welker: I want to ask you about this Trump administration lawsuit around Alaska's Senate ballot. You've already urged Michiganders to vote early to avoid potential what you have referred to as shenanigans from the Trump administration. As governor, what do you think this late stage lawsuit in Alaska could mean for Michigan? Well, I think it tells you that they're scared. They're seeing that people are angry with an agenda that has made their lives more costly, not less, which is what they were promised. And so they're going to pull out all the stops to try to undermine our confidence in the election to try to bring foolish lawsuits that are ridiculous.

36:03States run elections. We run elections in Michigan and we abide by them. Even if we don't like the result, as was the case two years ago, I still made sure that that election got certified. And so that is our job. Anyone who comes in to try to undermine that or intimidate people will be matched with the full force of Michigan law and law enforcement.

36:24Kristen Welker: Let me ask you, because you obviously are about to round out your second term as governor. I know you're working hard to try to get Jocelyn Benson elected, but I want to move to your relationship with President Trump. In his first term, you were very critical of his response to the COVID pandemic. You even said at one point he was inciting domestic terrorism after that plot to kidnap you. This term, though, very different. You visited the Oval Office. You've thanked him in speeches. It's a very different strategy than we've seen, for example, from a J.B. Pritzker or a Gavin Newsom. What changed, Governor?

37:05Nothing changed, Kristen. The fact of the matter is I took an oath to serve the people of Michigan. When we weren't getting what we needed to keep people safe during COVID, I took on the White House and I will take them on if they try to undermine this election. We filed a lot of lawsuits despite the last 18 months where I've tried to build some bridges there. My job is to show up for the people of Michigan. If that means I can get a fighter mission at Selfridge Air National Guard Base, I'm going to show up. It means if I've got to take you on in court because you're trying to undermine our election, I'm going to take you on.

37:36I don't go looking for fights, but I don't back down from them either.

37:40Kristen Welker: Let's talk about the Democratic Party, past and future. Democrats obviously lost the state of Michigan in 2024, lost the presidency. Why do you think that is, Governor? I think people really believe that a second Trump administration was going to make their lives easier. And now they've found out that they've been betrayed. And I think that's why you see Jocelyn Benson running such a strong campaign here in Michigan. Kristen, this will be, for a little context, this will be the first time in my lifetime we will have a Democrat to Democratic administration handoff in the governor's office. That tells you that what we have done here in Michigan has largely been seen by Michigan voters and the Michigan public to help them on the ground.

38:30The pain that we're all experiencing, whether it is, you know, six grand in tariff costs or it is an Iran war that is jacking up our gas prices to some of the highest in the nation. That is all choices that have been made by the Trump White House. And so it's very clear who's fighting to help you get ahead and keep more money in your pocket. It's been what we've done at the state level, despite the pain that has come out of Washington, D.C. And I think that's why you see Jocelyn Benson running such a strong campaign here. And frankly, Democratic governors across the country and our candidates as well.

39:03Kristen Welker: Let me ask you, because you told me on this program in August of 2024, quote, I think President Biden is going to go down as one of the greatest presidents we've had in a long time in this country. Do you still feel that way, Governor? I think it's too early to know what ultimately his reputation and feeling is going to be. There were some really historic wins that happened, but certainly, you know, it set us up for a Trump 2.0. And I think that's been incredibly devastating. So the history books will tell us in many years from now. But what I can tell you is having traveled across the country from Ohio to Arizona to Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Georgia, Nevada, New Mexico, and that's just in the last couple of weeks.

39:51I can tell you that across this country, Americans are hurting. And if you ask yourself, are you better off than you were two years ago? For most Americans, the answer is no.

40:01Kristen Welker: Let's look ahead to the next election cycle. We have seen you on the campaign trail in New Mexico and Nevada, some of the key presidential states, of course. The last thing I heard you say about a potential presidential run was, quote, never say never. Right now, are you ruling out a bid for 2028, Governor? Right now, I am trying to make sure that we have that Democratic to Democratic handoff come January 1 when I exit office. And then I'm going to take a little time off and figure out what I want to do next. So I've got nothing new to share with you, unfortunately, Kristen. So you're considering it, it sounds like.

40:41You know what? I'm going to stay focused on getting people like Amy Acton over the finish line. What's happened to her in Ohio is absolutely abhorrent. And any survivor knows there's always a backlash. But this is what makes it harder for women to seek help after they've been sexually assaulted in this country. It is unreal what's going on. And that's why we've got to we've got to win races like this and elect good people who are going to keep the people at the heart of their work, like Dr. Amy Acton.

41:09Kristen Welker: Well, let me ask it this way. And you kind of take me to this question based on how you answered that. Former First Lady Michelle Obama said she doesn't think America is ready for a woman president. Do you think America is ready to elect a woman president? Listen, I have got a lot of colleagues who I think are probably interested in running for president. And I've heard everyone say you can't have this person or that person. I would put my money on any Democratic governor in the country against J.D. Vance or Marco Rubio in 2028. So time will tell who the slate of candidates are. But I do think that when Democrats stay focused on delivering for people and making their lives easier and helping to keep more money in your pocket, I think that's going to be a compelling message for whomever the candidate is.

41:59And do you think it could be a woman? I do.

42:04Kristen Welker: All right. Governor Gretchen Whitmer, thank you very much for joining us in this nine days until Election Day. Appreciate it. Thank you. When we come back, a political ad that shocked the nation and a response you might not expect. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.

42:29Kristen Welker: Welcome back. This week, Ohio Republican gubernatorial candidate Vivek Ramaswamy defended his campaign's controversial attack ad despite bipartisan backlash. In 1964, Democratic vice presidential nominee Hubert Humphrey was pressed about the now infamous Daisy ad, which used the threat of nuclear war to attack Republican Barry Goldwater. Would you say that was an appeal to passion and fear? First, Mr. Spivak, I said that I felt the Goldwater Republicans would make this appeal. I didn't say all Republicans because a substantial number of them are supporting President Johnson. I did not approve of the TV spot that you refer to.

43:15And when my point of view was asked, I suggested that it be removed from the air. Even though I do feel that the issue of nuclear power and the control of nuclear power is possibly the central issue in this campaign. because I believe what you need is a president who is experienced, who is reliable,

43:36Kristen Welker: who temperamentally is steady and calm and not at all impetuous. When we come back, nine days to go and the political map is shifting. The panel is next.

43:52We have seen this movie before. I starred in it. I've got a long-form birth certificate to prove it. This stuff didn't work on me, not in Michigan. It's not going to work on Abdul.

44:08Kristen Welker: Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Garrett Haake, former Democratic Senator Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, and former Republican Governor Pat McCrory of North Carolina. Welcome to all of you on this big Sunday. Thank you for being here. Garrett, let's start with you. There you have former President Barack Obama. President Trump's going to be in Michigan campaigning with Congressman Rogers a little bit later on today. What's the state of play nine days out? I was excited to see the big guns coming out of the campaign stage. Look, I talk to Republican strategists all the time who are working on these races, and they are tripping over themselves to find words to describe exactly how bad the environment is for Republicans right now.

44:47None of them are words I can say on a morning broadcast television show. I mean, the environment is terrible for Republicans. And I think what you're going to see in this last week or so is an effort to disqualify as many Democratic candidates as you can. That's like what you heard from Mike Rogers just now. And also to try to essentially fall back to this red wall and hope that Republican states will ultimately still behave like Republican states. And that some of their candidates can outperform expectations in places where they think they have high candidate quality, like Ashley Hinson in Iowa or even Susan Collins in Maine, who might be able to outperform expectations.

45:19But nobody is under any illusion that this is going to be a big Republican year to sort of like defend the last line available to them over these last nine or 10 days.

45:29Kristen Welker: Yeah. Governor McCrory, how do you see these last nine or 10 days? Do you think Republicans are going to hold on to the Senate? I guess it's going to be very close. But the Democrats in the South, the Sunbelt Democrat senators are staying on message. I mean, they have incredible commercials in North and South Carolina. I get both in Charlotte. They have one commercial in which Governor Cooper says, I have a plan to make stuff cost less. And I want to stop the big insurance companies and the big utility companies from ripping us off. It's all about the economy. And they're linking the top two issues.

46:07And the Democrats are not talking about foreign policy. They're not talking about stopping the filibuster or packing the Supreme Court. And they do not want the national Democrats to come to these states. They don't want Kamala Harris. They don't want to get anywhere near a California Democrat.

46:24Kristen Welker: They want to stay on message. And if you notice Mike Rogers, he got back to local issues too that had nothing to do with the U.S. Senate. It's almost like a Seinfeld episode where they want to talk about nothing related to the U.S. Senate. You know, the show Seinfeld talk about nothing, a show about nothing. That's what all the candidates are doing now. They're bringing in local issues that have nothing to do with the U.S. Senate. Well, a little bit. Well, Senator High Kim, on that point, I mean, we're seeing that type of strategy play out in Ohio right now in the gubernatorial race where you have Vivek Ramaswamy, who ran this very controversial ad, it features the mom of Amy Acton.

47:04Kristen Welker: Amy Acton is estranged from her mother, says she hasn't spoken to her in nearly 50 years because she was sexually abused by her stepfather, who was charged with that crime, by the way. A number of Republicans have said, take the ad down. You heard Governor Whitmer talk about it. I've been talking to Republican strategists. Their concern is it could alienate women voters. How do you see it playing? Well, I see it playing not only in Ohio, but across the country. What have we been talking about here the last four days? We've been talking about that ad. If I were running as Mike Rogers or one of these other tight races, Susan Collins, that's the last thing you want is to profile a pedophile enabler, which is exactly what they did.

47:46And the begging to take it down, the arrogance of the Ramaswamy campaign is overwhelming. And so it's not just what's going to happen in Ohio. It's about bringing up the Epstein files once again into these local races. They don't want to run on national issues. They want to run on local issues, both all the candidates, and now you've nationalized that ad. We've covered a lot of races. That's not an ad you run if you think you're winning either. I think everybody can see that for what it is, as a candidate trying to kind of throw a haymaker with not a lot of time left, and that's a tell-to. But you wouldn't run that ad in any case.

48:22It's a horrible ad.

48:23Kristen Welker: She's a horrible spokesperson. Governor, you've been in an instance where you've contemplated running a tough ad. Oh, I've had a political consultant with two weeks out. I was three points down. and he said, I want you to run this smear campaign ad. I knew that's what he was thinking against my opponent, blaming her for a murder of a college student. And I said, I can't do that. And he went, you're going to lose the campaign. I went, so be it. And the dilemma we have on both sides of the aisle is some people are willing to risk other people's reputation, smear them and their family, and do anything to win.

49:00It's a Machiavellian type of approach. And he, you know, when you use a family member as a prop in your smear campaign, you've crossed. You've crossed.

49:09Kristen Welker: Especially a damaged family member. Yeah, I want to get your sense on what we're seeing in terms of the map. Garrett noted this. It's to some extent expanding Democrats investing in Kansas, South Carolina, Iowa. Is that realistic or is there a sense of overconfidence here on the part of Democrats? Well, it's about the economy. me. When you look at a state-based state GDP, guess what? Kansas and Iowa are underwater. And people know it. He has hurt, the president has hurt the economies of those two farm states. And if you were trying to make it tough for your candidate in Kansas, you'd attack one of the largest employers, an aerospace industry.

49:47You would raid a business that is providing a lot of employment and local, you know, the meatpacking business, and you would impose tariffs that would hurt farmers and start a war that raises diesel prices. So, yeah, he hurt them. It's going to be turnout. Who gets the independent vote? In North Carolina, we have more independent or unaffiliated voters than Democrats or Republicans. Are they going to vote? Who are they going to vote for? And do the Trump visits help get the base out? I stood in line for an hour yesterday in Charlotte.

50:20Kristen Welker: That is the big question. Garrett, how do you see the Democrats? Do you think there is a risk in being overconfident right now? I don't see it as overconfidence. I see it as trying to find places where a little bit more money might make a difference. If you're the Democrats throwing a couple million dollars in Mississippi right now, that probably goes a lot farther than a couple more million in Texas where you can't buy ad time anymore. That's saturated. Let's see what they can put else in play. All right. Fantastic conversation. It's going to be dynamic nine days. Thank you all for being here.

50:47Kristen Welker: Really appreciate it. Great conversation. That is all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We will be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.

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