Arsenal's late winner over Wolves, Mo Salah's Liverpool return, and Sunderland's joyous Newcastle victory: Men in Blazers 12/15/25

25:12They're unbeaten in five now. It's a very unimpressive unbeaten in five, but they are unbeaten in five. The crisis has abated slightly. You know, Sabres like still playing well. Verts looks better. Ekitike is in quite good form now. There are green shoots at Liverpool. And the fact that Salah's gone away for six weeks, potentially, that maybe makes a decision for him because he doesn't have to think about how to get Salah into the team. Beyond that, what I think should happen and what I think will happen are probably two separate things. So I think the obvious thing here from a Liverpool point of view, Salah goes away.

25:44Liverpool have a relatively kind run of fixtures over the next month. They have to go to Arsenal, but given the circumstances, that's kind of a free hit. They won't be expecting anything from that. There'll be no pressure on them to get anything from that. So you potentially get a month of, similar to what we've seen over the last couple of weeks, kind of solid performances, nothing spectacular, put a few points on the board, stay in contention for fourth, sign a central defender, please. That would be ideal just to offer some cover. And then you bring Salah back in January. He plays some games, not all games, and he gets to go properly in the summer.

26:19That, I think, is what should happen. That is the ideal scenario for all concerned, that Salah gets through the season as a Liverpool player, he gets a proper farewell, gets to add a few more goals to his tally, plays the majority of the time, not all the time. I think the complication there is I don't know if Salah would accept that. And the issue is I think his agent may well spend the next few weeks explaining to Liverpool in no uncertain terms that Salah will not accept that. And as you say, if that's the case, you can't really bring him back because he becomes a massive distraction, becomes a problem, affects the mood around the club, affects the mood in the squad potentially, in which case I think Liverpool would think if we get a suitable offer, then maybe now's the time to make the break if that's what Salah wants.

27:03The bigger complication and the bit that I have no idea about, I don't know if a suitable offer arrives, Rog, because everyone keeps assuming Saudi Arabia, but Mohamed Salah's on an awful lot of money and it's not the sort of things the Saudis will do lightly even if they decide that that's the kind of route they want to go down. And the other thing is, we don't know if Mohamed Salah wants to go to Saudi Arabia yet. He might not want to. He might think, as he did last season, I can still play in Europe. I can still play at the top level. I'm not ready to take the step sideways and a little bit downwards into a lead where the level's not as high.

27:43I'm not sure that's in Salah's interest at this stage. So how that element of it plays out, I have no idea. Oh, motor LAFC, make it happen, baby. For Brighton, by the way, Herzl cannot win in December. This is incredible. His record at Brighton played nine, lost four, drawn five, won zero. Liverpool win back-to-back games, clean sheet to boot, and beaten, as you say, in five. They travel to Spurs next Saturday to kick off, as you say, a relatively friendly slate of festive figures, Wolves, Leeds and Fulham. I love this Discord comment, which will be the final word. At Advanced Dude Bro came up with this one.

28:21Salah torching Liverpool on the way out the door. It's just a result of Chelsea's 5D chess moves finally coming to fruition. It's why we let him go in the first place. I love it when a plan comes together. I will say, Dude Bro, just the two titles in that incredible Chelsea gambler. but I think Liverpool fans will take it.

28:46To the top, toppity top of the table, Arsenal 2, Wolves 1. Surely Arsenal would recover from last weekend's Aston Villa darkness. Surely they'd slap hapless Wolves, right? Losers of 13 to 15, bot on the table. Proud owners of the league's worst defensive record. Really seemed like a gift from the Premier League script writers. worst team in English football history after 15 games at any level. But it was Arsenal who felt grim in that first 45. No shots on target for the first time this season in the first half. Wolves suddenly combative. Arsenal had 74 % possession, set up camp in the Wolves' final third.

29:25Wolves almost dared them to break their lines. They did jailbait quickly when they could through Huang in moments. I think the closest Arsenal came was a Gab Martinelli header from a corner which is somehow, it was pretty well standing on the goal line, failed to convert. It was truly frustration city for Arsenal fans. Ben White limped off with a hamstring strain, more defensive wow. And raw, Emirates went quiet. There was a real angst gripping the air, a lot of frustration, kind of centred up Victor Jocares, barely touched the ball, five touches, I think, in the first half. I found it hard to watch because Gent makes so many runs and is never fed.

30:05He's really a striker that thrives in transition. This was not a game played in transition. Where are you right now on that poor gent? I still think that there's a little bit of a misunderstanding about why Arsenal signed Jokeres. He's not been brought in to be the world's greatest striker. He's not an equivalent to Haaland. He's brought in as an option. And that makes sense because Arsenal were lacking that kind of proper number nine last season. But the complication there is that it's hard to get that sort of player into a structure because the structure's not designed to have a proper number nine in it.

30:36Their instinctive thought is not there will be a striker there, as it is for, say, City, who will come on to. They are now playing very much with the idea of let's get the ball to Erling as fast as possible. Arsenal don't think like that. That's not how Arsenal have been designed. So I think that as much as it's easy to point at Jokeres and say he's not of the level Arsenal require, I don't think it's that. I think it's that you're taking a player who wants to do one thing and putting him into a team that wants to do another, and that is not something that comes that quickly. I know, I do feel for him because he was also, he's 27 years old.

31:07He's brought in to win now. There's a clip from an interview I did pre-season with Mikel Arteta that's kind of done the rounds again after the game where I asked Mikel for his best data as to how he knew that Jochores would kind of take his sporting goal ratio, 97 was it, in 102 games, but he'd not proven it in the top flight. and Mikel said the best data was looking in his eyes when we first met. There is still real work to do there and there seems to be so much pressure on his shoulders. And talking about pressure, the rest of this team in that challenge situation went about the whole first half and deep into the second half with unfocused frenzy.

31:49It was very hard to watch. It really became about Arsenal and the Wolves blockade and Wolves versus fatigue at the same time. Arsenal flung on Trossard, Erdegaard, and that kind of heroic wildcard, Marino. And sometimes, we've talked about this before, in a title race, you need skill. Sometimes you need physicality. And sometimes you just need old school luck. And that's what happened. 70th minute, Arsenal corner. Stop me if you've heard this one before. Bukayo Saka whipped him. Truly a pearl of back post. Ball sailed over everyone. Wolves goalkeeper, Sam Johnson, misread its flight. Ball hit.

32:26I think it was at the left-hand post with Johnson kind of flailing backwards, bounced back, hit the valiant goalkeeper and went in. Proof in terms of the poor Wolves goalkeeper who'd been so strong, you either die a hero or live long enough to have Saka bounce one in off your backbone. Roar, I've said this and we've talked about this for all the training, for all the scheming, for all the tactics. In a title race, luck is probably the greatest intangible. I don't know whether it's misremembering or whether it's sort of willful nostalgia. in the course of a title winning season there's loads of games where teams don't play well happens all of the time maybe the kindest interpretation is that Guardiola City teams have kind of conditioned us to think that what champions look like is this sort of purring machine that is 4-0 up after half an hour but they're not there's a reason that older fans would reckon which is a group unfortunately that includes both me and you would recognise the term Ferdy time, right?

33:29The Man United teams of the 1990s. I was going to say, if older fans can remember when Liverpool were given the title after five games a season, that's how football works now. It's just fruit fly memory. Go on. We are all ageing rapidly. Now, in the 90s and 2000s, those dominant Manchester United teams under Alex Ferguson famously scored lots and lots of goals in injury time. And that's been remembered as proof of their doggedness, their perseverance, their ability, their energy, all that stuff. And all of that is absolutely true. But it's also true that that means they weren't winning at 90 minutes because sometimes they played quite poorly.

34:05And that's what champions do. They find a way to dig it out. And yeah, this was one of those games for Arsenal. Maybe they've had a lot of fixtures recently. They've got a lot more coming up. There might be a little bit of fatigue setting in. The injuries are taking their toll, I think, in terms of their rhythm. I think there is a little bit of a kind of inflection point in terms of the psychology at the moment because they are the team that has been top for a long time now and they can't shake other teams off. And I wonder whether that's starting to have a little bit of an impact. But at the same time, you don't play well in every game.

34:37And sometimes, yeah, you win a game because the goalkeeper misjudges the flight of a cross and it goes in off his arse. Yeah, just enjoy it. Lol. We meant it. We didn't mean it. Who cares? Yes, it's CPipster49 in our Discord came up with the term for the goal. They said, is that an Olympico? Which I love, genuinely. Olympicos, very, very rare. Olympicos, uber rarer. And probably even rarer than an Olympico. A bloody Wolves goal. Because remember, Wolves has scored once in 11 hours. And equalised him unless he felt unlikely. But Arsenal decided to sit back, invite them on. Said, you know, we are, what are we?

35:16At our heart. We are defensive meisters. I think Wolves will draw strength from their moxie in this one. 90th minute, series of crosses no one dealt with, and the Nigerian giant Tolu Arakadare, all six foot six of him, finally got his head on the ball ahead of Hincapié, uncorked a quite emphatic header, wrong-footed, a stunned Ryan. It felt jaw-dropping in the moment with seconds to go. But Cometh, a renewed hero, because 81st minute, Gabriel Jesus had come on 11 months out with an ACL, 28-year-old forward. Unless he's been out so long, he always feels like a player from another era. And so it was humanly magnificent.

35:54It really was to see Arsenal, the bottlers Arsenal, the throw-it-all-away Arsenal, the weak, feeble-minded Arsenal, just roll up their sleeves, get rid of the fight-or-flight panic and just go up the field, have Saka, quite brilliant in this game, waft in a cross, a lethal cross. Jesus was the gentleman who charged towards it. Ultimately, the ball flew in off the defender marking him, Jürgen Mosquera. He fell to the floor in utter agony as the Arsenal players celebrated all around. It was quite fascinating. It looked like Jesus had scored. Jesus did not want to celebrate because he knew it was an own goal.

36:30But the Arsenal players were so delirious, they didn't care. Just pushed this guy towards the Arsenal faithful, danced the giddy dancer men who had experienced the ultimate reprieve of being shot at and have that bullet miss. Arsenal could have gone second. This is what we were looking at. If they knew, if they'd drawn and City had won, they would have been in second place, but they'd emerged intact. They're still two points clear. And you talk about the mentality roar. Thierry Henry said to me midweek, it was really striking. He said, when you have not won anything, you have not crossed that line.

37:06The fear of winning is bigger than the fear of losing. Astonishing. I mean, Thierry knows this. He knows Arsenal. He knows how to win. The fear of winning is bigger than the fear of losing. So with that in mind, should we worry about the quality of the performance? This was poor and Arteta was actually a picture of a masked anger post-game. Or ultimately, are results the only thing that matter in the gauntlet of December football? Yeah, that's a good point. In December, it's just get out with what you can to an extent. That is true. But I don't think we should worry about the performance against Wolves.

37:39Because as I say, that can happen. And in title races, title winning teams will have days when it just doesn't work and they're not really there and they have to dig deep and find a 94th minute winner against an opponent who they should be wiping the floor with. I think of slightly more concern is the fact that for the last six weeks, Arsenal's form has tailed off a little bit, that the momentum seems to have slowed. And that's natural. Not every team can keep their foot to the floor all of the time. But if you look at some of the performances, some of the results since Sunderland, really, Arsenal aren't kind of the, you know, the judder not we thought they might be.

38:19City aren't giving up. Aston Villa aren't giving up. And that puts pressure on Arsenal. And I think Henry's right that this season was always going to be psychological more than technical for Arsenal. It's about whether they can handle the pressure, about whether they can execute effectively. they're doing it so far but the margins are getting finer and finer Tenacity wins titles Arsenal's next six games fascinating they are all ones they failed to win last season the plot thickens to the title chasers Crystal Palace nil Manchester City 3 a game defined as a battle from before kickoff when City fans commandeered Palace's quite fantastic pre-game glad all over song to bellow their Guardiola version City fresh off a clinical win at Real Madrid the one that left poor Xabi Alonso thinking about urology and his tenure on the brink Pep had never lost at Selhurst Park and Palace though battling both their opponent and a quite brutal schedule which has been a product of their success but is also probably their biggest challenge cagey opening City boss possession Palace though flung it long constantly to Mateta to kind of bully and probe in behind the City backline emotes they had chance after chance to be candid.

39:32Wharton fed Pino in on goals and he scooped the one-on-one over the bar. Then Mateta with the wide open chance. God bless Adam Wharton, a beautiful footballer to witness. He's like a conductor of men at the heart of all that was good. The sting of his flashing blade. Really the idea of Adam Wharton really seemed to subdue City. It rocked them almost to be candid until it didn't. Erling Haaland had had eight touches in the first half. He seemed like a non-factor. until he was. City snapped into life. Nunes found space on the right, lashed in the cross. Holland created brutal separation from Alabama's finest Chris Richards.

40:11Just went big air, don't care. 1-0. And it was so deflating. It was like Palace had fought so bloody gamely. And then City just have this nuclear option rule. Just give it to Big Earl. And on one hand, the road to 200 goals starts now. But man, I was like, did Palace not watch videotape defensively before this one? Well, I'm not sure there's anything you can do. That's the problem because Haaland does have that kind of, that leap, that ability to understand defender's movement, defender's motion, to get himself a little pocket of space. And as soon as a decent ball goes in, he's going to score because this is early in Haaland's secret.

40:49I think he's enormous and that gives him a massive advantage. So yeah, we... Is it like for you as an under-8 coach? It's just like, play the big kid. Fortunately, as an underweight coach these days, Rog, they're not allowed to head the ball. It's all banned. This is the last... We all need to get used to... We should all enjoy this because there is a generation of kids coming through who will never have headed a football and will be terrible at it, which is fine. It's good. It protects them. It's better for their health. But also, there'll be some dads with their four-year-olds. Now there's some four-year-olds who do bare-knuckle boxing illegally in basements.

41:23There'll be some dads being like, kid, I'm going to give you an advantage. Come on. I am conscious this is a public forum and I will not say that I'm aware that there are four-year-old kids doing bare-knuckle boxing in basements. That's not something I've ever encountered, Roger. But they are doing the headers. They're doing the secret header training. There is a massive, I've not thought of that, but there would be a massive competitive edge to like training your kid to be amazing at headers. Because in England, it's banned, I think, until they're 11. Yep. It may do your IQ in some, but think about how great that first contract's going to taste.

41:53By the time they're 11, they'd be the only kid who could head it. It would be such a competitive edge. No, I think the problem we have with City and assessing their performances now is that you can watch Manchester City and think they are not playing well, but they don't need to. Because as soon as you need one decent delivery and the cross from Nunes was fantastic. And Haaland does a little bit of a shimmy to get away from Richards and you get a goal. And that's the danger that City pose now. Second half, much of the same. Wharton creating the alchemy palace. perhaps done in after European endeavours again.

42:28They really did. They don't have a big enough squad to rotate. They couldn't summon a finish. Oliver Glaston actually said this was Palace's best performance against Manchester City under him, even though it ended in a 3-0 defeat. And he might be right. They actually won the XG in this game. It was 2.24 to 1.32. You could tell both managers were frustrated for very different reasons getting into it on the sideline. Palace kept coming with their mischief, But City were ultimately a bit like a big dog, annoyed by a small dog who thought it was a big dog. And Phil Foden, that Mancunian pit bull of a footballer, I still believe he was carved in a woodshed by Pep Guardiola himself, who breathed life into his manny son.

43:11He put the game away. Another Cherokee assist, six of the season. Incredible. He started six games. Another trademark Foden goal. In space, around the edge of the box. Defender in front of him. He loves that defender in front of him. I think it was Chris Richards again. And just deceiving the keeper with his lethal placement rather than his power. Six goals in his last four Premier League games. You're really the product of a superhuman clinicality that's back. Yeah, we've been saying for a long time that City needed to relieve the burden on Haaland to find someone else who wasn't Burnley's Max E.

43:43Mestev to store roles for them. And Foden has stepped up. And the last, I think, six weeks, two months, he's probably been City's best player. He looks like the player he was a couple of years ago. He kind of went missing for 18 months, but he seems to have recovered completely. As you say, he has that signature goal now. And that's such an important thing. You know if Phil Foden gets the ball 20 yards out, relatively central. You know what he's going to try and do and no one can stop it. And that is kind of what City needed at this moment. And it's also what Foden needed, as it did feel as though his career had plateaued a little bit.

44:14Now he seems to have found another level. God bless. And Pep has talked a little bit about how Phil Foden was dealing with mental challenges, which he has most certainly overcome. And it is incredible to see him back, loving his football again. Haaland wrapped the game up with a penalty after essentially a kickoff return by Savino, led to him being fouled. 17 Premier League goals on the season, 3-0 City, clean sheet, four league wins in a row, two points back from Arsenal, far from perfect. Definitely vulnerable in behind. But as Pep said, they are growing in resilience, which is one of the most important qualities for title winners.

44:51Ro, how scared should we be of this kind of undeniably potent but undeniably flawed city on a scale of one? Norlito to 10. Big Earl. Maybe not quite 10 because I still think there is an inconsistency there. And if you look at their pictures over the holidays, you've got Forrest away, which given the Sean Dyche-ness of Nottingham Forest at the moment will not be easy. They're at home to Chelsea. They're away at Sunderland who've already taken points obviously off Liverpool and Arsenal and Chelsea. The holiday period will be a bit of a test for them. I still think they are maybe better suited to winning the Champions League than the Premier League City.

45:29I think that over the course of two legs, they can beat pretty much anybody. Whether they can sustain it, if Arsenal continue to pick up points, I don't know. But the one thing that is absolutely true is that Arsenal will be looking at where Manchester City are and thinking, I'd like it if they weren't there. God, I keep having Thierry Henry's words echo in my head and I cannot shake them. To third place, West Ham 2, Aston Villa 3. West Ham let history remember, scored after a now season best 29 seconds on the clock. Fernandes screamed, reload the bubble machine. Roar, can you believe this? That West Ham of all teams do not believe the life truth.

46:09You should never score too early. I mean, I watched that and I was just like, what are you doing? I pity the fools. West Ham are not in a position to reject goals gifted to them, even if they are very obviously far too early. West Ham need all of the goals and all of the help they can get. I mean, this is against Villa, 9 out of 10 win Villa. And of course they fought back. Mavropane's fine own goal finish under pressure from Oli Watkins. West Ham, no, valiant. Goal scored. I love this. A goal scored while claiming a penalty at the same time. Bowen's sharp instinctual finish. But my God, this West Ham, it must drive Nuno, who is like the master of defensive foundations.

46:44So crazy how his team cannot keep a clean sheet and cannot hold on to a lead. Villa got themselves back even with a Morgan Rodgers spin and finished. And 79th minute, it was a U-Core game. From a distance, I think from a distance that even Steph Curry would be like, wow, that is far out. A top spin dipper. Someone said it had an XG and expected goals of 0.02 that chance. But agony for West Ham. Delirious joy for Aston Villa 10 wins in 11 top flight games for the first time since 1990. Three goals on an expected goals of 0.67, which is actually really fascinating because Villa are shooting out the lights right now.

47:31They are three points back in a pack which have separated themselves from those chasing. Is this for real? Or is the, you know, you see the XG data, is a reversion to the mean in their future? So remember we talked about the noise levels on American TV. do you want the American TV answer or do you want the British stadium answer? You know what? We come to you, Roar, for one thing and one thing only, the British stadium answer. Speak true to us, man. So just to kind of get my credentials out there, I love Aston Villa. Aston Villa have always been kind of one of those, there's two or three teams, other English teams that I have a bit of a soft spot for.

48:05What are they? What are they? Villa? Villa, Leeds and Leicester are the other three. What? My dad's a Leicester fan. Your dad, your dad. For me, it's Bournemouth and Crystal Palace, I think. But go on, Bubz. Because of Bill Foley and Chris Richards. The two defining figures of the English football landscape. My two dads. And what a couple they'd be. I know. What do you mean would be? I'm breaking news and I don't want to tell you. By the way, at this point, I do have to lift up my Bill Foley bobblehead, which I do keep meaning to glue that hand back on and I do apologise, Bournemouth. I actually don't know where the hand's gone now, but go on.

48:41So I've got a lot of affection for Villa. You're right, the XG is fascinating. Villa are brilliant at scoring goals from outside the box. Now, I could be wrong, but everything that data tells me about football would suggest that that hot streak will stop at some point and that they will face the problem they had at the start of the season again, which is that they don't create that many clear-cut chances, Aston Villa. That has been an issue all season. I think they are on a hot streak. They have an exceptional manager. They've got some brilliant players. They've got some players who are kind of at that kind of crest of their journey, Morden Rodgers being the obvious example.

49:14they are without question a team that can qualify for the Champions League again. I think they will finish in the top five. But I think as winter becomes spring, the fact that they're playing in Europe as well will start to drain the squad. And that's the issue they'll face. The game's coming up for the Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal 2, Electric Boogaloo. So I'd say let's speak on December the 30th after that final whistle and we will see what is for real. and I hope, I do hope they, I love John McGinn, I adore that man and his just ginormous buttocks, kind of buttocks you say in Liverpool, you could rest a pint on.

49:51Roger, it would be amazing if Villa won the title. That would be an amazing story, as much as Arsenal fans wouldn't enjoy it, or, you know, thank me for saying it, it would be incredible to see one of English football, you know, found a member of the football league, the biggest club in the second city, the team that hasn't won the title since the early 1980s, to see Villa win the league again, I don't think I can hear this. I've got to tell you, if Arsenal do not win the league, I think it will be humanly, utterly devastating not just for Arsenal fans, but for humanity in general. For reasons we can talk more of, please God will never have to speaketh of that darkness.

50:26To the fun game of the weekend, Sunderland 1, Newcastle United 0. Behold, the Tynanware derby. We talked about it last week, one of the fiercestly felt rivalries in English football. The Guardian Roar actually dug into the history of the Gripple Grapple in depths I did not even know. Did you know this? They said it's a rivalry between two cities 12 miles apart, and it dates back to the 17th century when Newcastle was royalist, sending them back the parliamentary and rebels. Such tribalism intensified, they wrote, when during the later Jacobite uprisings. I don't know what the Jacobites are. Are they Jacob Murphy's predecessors?

51:09Newcastle supported the Hanoverian monarchy. Sunderland sided with the Scottish stewards. This is why we watch football right raw, to live our royalist versus parliamentary and 17th century beefs. The thing is, when you go to Sunderland, they are forever talking about the Jacobites. I wish they'd shut up about the Jacobites. Always on about the bloody Jacobites. You get this a lot with rivalries, and people will tell you that Liverpool-Manchester United is all about the ship canal and something about wool. What, trade in like the 19th century? Yeah. It is though. But it is and it isn't. It's because they're close cities and people in one city don't like the people in the city next door.

51:45That's just the nature of life. There's that too. And also I think the root of the Sunderland Newcastle football rivalry is that they each have football teams that want to beat the others. I don't think that the You don't think there's a lot of young people being like, Dad, but the Jacobites and stuff. No one was banning on about George III or whatever, whoever the Hanoverians were. I'm not entirely sure. No one was talking about that outside the Stadium of Light on Sunday. They might have been talking about police horses. God bless the police horses and God protect them. What we did know, this was the first such league meeting between the teams in almost 10 years.

52:25Shane on our Discord said, my God, they've waited a long time for this. They've been storing up spite for so long. I love the idea of spite storage. And I think, God, whoever can actually market that, if you could store spite easily, God, you'd make a fortune. Can you imagine the data centers you'd require? I know, it'd be amazing. You'd need so much energy to store spite. Economic development. I'm going to start storing all the spite across the Midwest. It would be genuinely unbelievable. I think life would be so much better if we had somewhere to put our spite instead of carrying it inside of us.

53:00But anyway, irrespective, that passion, because spite and passion, there's a thin line between the two, just bled through the pre-match. The noise, the song, Sunderland teeth over giant black cat killing a magpie. My favourite roar, the fact that on the scoreboards at Sunderland, Newcastle were listed simply as visitors without a crest, which is, I have to say, a level of pettiness I can get behind. It's the sort of puerile, childish nonsense that really enriches a derby. Can you imagine who thought that? They had like a, let's ideate, let's have a creative meeting about how we can unleash our hate.

53:39I think they were all sat there in 18th century Stuart costume, which is the way that people traditionally dress in Sunderland. Yeah. Thinking. How can we bring the Hanoverians down? We normally put the Newcastle badge on. I'm sure this is, and Sunderland fans, correct me if I'm wrong. I think this is a relatively new twist on this. I'm pretty sure they used to show the badges. Let's just put visitors. Let's even refuse to name them. That is a suggestion that someone should have said that. That's a bit much. It's not, you know, we shouldn't really be stoking this hatred. But they thought, no, actually, let's just do it.

54:12And it's Sunderland at the moment. So stuff tends to work. By the way, I've got to say, we are now memeing on scoreboards. That is a slippery slope. It will not be too long before, like, the next one. The next one, it goes in a spiral. And, like, the next thing, it will just be like scummers. We're going to a very, very dark place, but a lighter place. The atmosphere, it was intense. It was cacophonous. I bet you even on British TV, there was a little bit of noise, but maybe because of it, the football was bloody terrible. It felt like a game. It was just a series of fouls underscored by a cacophony of booing.

54:47Newcastle has to be set up incredibly cautiously. I bet they rue that. Sunderland, though, couldn't break them down. No Premier League gamers had fewer shots or touches in the penalty area in the first 45 than this one. I think there can be something as too much passion. Second half, marginally more composure, marginally 46 minutes. A long McKay Lee throw in was cleared and recycled back on the right. He slung in a great ball and it was Nick Valtemada in his own area, the German giant, defending the original long throw. Got his head to the cross, headed it quite beautifully and cruelly off the underside of the bar.

55:23I will say, Ru, if there's a puscus for own goals, and we saw so many this weekend, this one's definitely a nominee. And I looked at it, I was like, oh my God, this man, he's in agony, by the way, afterwards, agony. But even his own goals are just transcendently brilliant. I felt desperately sorry for Valtomada, who's had a really good start to his Newcastle career, but will need to have a much better next six months if he's going to wipe away the memory of the first weird time derby that he played in. it's a really weird on goal it's really hard not to watch it and think has he got too confused about which end he's at it's a genuinely brilliant finish and he seems to watching the replay he seems to flick his head to try and do it yes he's different gravy he's different gravy he's just like I am yes a striker but I'm an avant-garde performance artist first and foremost and I love you Nick Voltam I love it genuinely he's the one Premier League football I want to have come on the show the most at the moment.

56:22The game, though, it's a bit like watching the Iron Bowl and have an end 2-0 courtesy of a safety. The action was off the field. Sunderland remain undefeated at home. Newcastle fans, I think, will be furious at the lack of ambition. Eddie Howe did take a beating from his own supporters after this game. But despite the lack of football, at the final whistle, the Sunderland fans, weeping, mothers, daughters, sons, dads, shirtless dads, to be candid, most of them, just reveling in this moment. I have to say to American fans, this town, Sunderland, has suffered so bloody much economically, politically.

56:58It was kind of left bereft in post-industrial England, this ship building in Coal Town. I mean, both of those industries dried up and it is a tough town. It's a proud town. And this rivalry, like Newcastle really, is heartfelt because both towns have suffered. Both towns have suffered footballingly as well. this game was long awaited the celebrations at the end Rory the lap of honour for the players the laps of honour the photographs taken in front of the fans you could just see memories being made for that Sunderland fan base who have really really walked the hard miles that will last forever being forged before your eyes and it was beautiful Yeah and I think what's really significant is that they've not played this derby in the Premier League for nearly 10 years there was an FA Cup game a couple of years ago that Newtassle won pretty easily when they were a Premier League team and Sunderland weren't but this is the first time in an awfully long time that it feels like Sunderland are kind of level pegging with Newcastle and even you know if you squint and take away a little bit of context you could maybe say that it's a better time to be a Sunderland fan than a Newcastle fan and that hasn't happened for a really long time so maybe getting on for 20 years and that must feel such a there must be such a lightness to it there must be such a there must be reveling in that so much that, yeah, it was a terrible game and it took a freakish own goal to win the derby, but they won the derby.

58:22They're ahead of them by four points in the table. They may well be realistic enough to recognise that that might not last, that Newcastle's strength and depth might tell. But for the first time, if you're a Sunderland fan, you can wake up today and think, it's better being a Sunderland fan than a Newcastle fan. And that's a really precious feeling. It is indeed. And by the way, I love that line. If you squint and take away a little bit of context, That's how I'm going to approach everything in my life from here on here. Like this, baby. Makes it better. They're the world instantly. A million percent better.

58:52You've solved a lot of problems I've got today, Roar.

58:59Talking of problems, Nottingham Forest 3. Tottenham Hotspur 0. Winner gets to keep Morgan Gibbs white for Eves. Forest called really BS on Spurs' incredible away record. Scored three goals for the fourth time in five weeks. That's Sean Dyche football. liquid. First goal, gift in the spirit of the season. Vicario playing the ball into the teeth of the Forest Press. The poor young Archie Gray was actually calling for it, but she'd never been given the ball. Took a touch, she shouldn't have taken. Sangare breathing on his neck, charged in. Vicario parried and it was Hudson-Odoi slapped home the follow-up and made it to old Callum with a cross that was a shot.

59:38We used to call it a chasse or a scrot. Vicario again, in danger of making himself a one-man scapegoat with that one, but a sensational third. It was Sangari striking from distance. Left Forest fans absolutely delirious. Sean Dyches, Forest fans dancing on Spurs' grave, singing, we're not Ian Forest, we're taking the piss. God bless Spurs, though. Woeful in this one going forward. Kudis just ran into nowhere, coughed up the ball, but Charleston couldn't hold it up. Xavi Simon's back to lost boy settings. I think 0.37 expected goals. Just a single shot on target. There's blunt. There's utterly impotent.

1:00:21I do think Thomas Frank Spurs are at this point footballing erectile dysfunction with some of these statistics. 22 points across their opening 16 Premier League games. They've last recorded fewer at this stage of a campaign in 2009. They had one more point and were one place higher. in Ange's disaster campaign last year one win in seven top flight games though good news after Thoreau this in just six points off four plays Chelsea still Thomas Frank forced to admit Roar improving Spurs present reality is quote not a quick fix saying if no one gets the time no one can turn this around no one doing a lot of heavy lifting there is he speaking the truth though Roar and will the truth even save him it's tricky so part of me thinks that Spurs are probably missing their best three players through injury and you can really tell.

1:01:15No Solanke, no Toulouse-Seschi, no Maddison and that makes a big difference and I think they are a totally different proposition if two of those three players are in the team, to be honest. Anything. Then you have the compression of the table, which Roger you and I have talked about this on here, we've talked about it privately. I think we're responding to results wrongly. I think the way that we're reading the table is not me and you personally, just like in general. No, no, no, I agree with you. What? Football fans reading the table wrongly? We're all about emotion now. We're not at all. Like the table actually doesn't matter.

1:01:47I'm pretty convinced. And I'm going to talk to you more about this tomorrow. We don't care about where we are. Yeah, it's all about the vibes. And by that totem, if you looked at Spurs, yeah, all right, they've, you know, 22 points from 16 games is pretty bad. But Chelsea, who certainly in patches, we've been saying, you know, having quite a good season, we've only got six points more. And that isn't a world of difference. That's a shot hitting the post that could have been a goal. It's one slip in defence. It's a couple of results, a couple of minor things in a couple of games. And I think we have to start factoring that in when we're assessing teams' performances.

1:02:22But that said, I think in the context of Spurs' last season, that underperformance under Posta Coddlew in the league, I think given the money they've spent on that squad, given the expectation of the club, given where they want to be, there is a lot of pressure on Thomas Frank. And it does feel a little bit like they play Liverpool at home on Saturday. That is the crisis bat on Derby. Because whoever loses, I mean, if they draw, they're probably both okay, to be honest. But whoever loses, you feel that kind of, they descend into the depths again. The Spurs had kind of come out of their little crisis and then they get beaten very heavily at Forest.

1:03:00And it feels like the clouds are gathering again. Same for Liverpool. There are a lot of teams who are living like that at the moment where one result, two results, means suddenly the world looks like a very different place. And if I'd be rational when he can be knee-jerk and headless, I think more and more football is genuinely just that place for us all, just a vent. The world is dark and twisted. Let's lose our mind completely over football and not have to store up our spite. That's the one damage to the spite-storing, the one challenge to the spite-storing industry that we're both working on frantically.

1:03:33But the other thing, Rog, a similar kind of thing, how on earth did Forrest lose 3-0 to Everton? I mean, that happened. I mean, again, when you said earlier, old football fans, that was like in the days of yore. Football is both knee-jerk and whatever happened three weeks ago, two weeks ago, may as well have happened last century. It is so irrelevant to our thinking. God bless mindlessness and short-term thinking and just the erratic nature of this season's Chaos League in other games. Burnley 2, Fulham 3. An agonizing seventh straight defeat for JJ Watts Burnley as they're there. Masters right now have close, but no cigar football.

1:04:13Five points from safety for Fulham. The triple joy of victory of Anthony Robinson returning for the first Premier League start since May this year. 202 agonizing days. He went the full 90 and it was magical to watch. How we US fans need that man. And then Harry Wilson. age 28, just rounding into the form of his life. Three goals, three assists in his past four games. Mr. Bangers only. Ultimately, this is the amazing thing, Roar. This was Fulham's first win at Burnley in 35 games, a.k.a. 1951. When you hear that, I find that inspirational. Who says you can't change history, Roar? Also, Fulham winning at Burnley in 1951 would have been a massive shock because Burnley were good then.

1:04:58That was when Burnley were a powerhouse. Yeah. is less of a shock now. By the way, Fulham, also pretty bloody good. Yeah, they would have been, yeah. I wish we could do like, I wish people had podcasts back then and then we can really have deeper, deeper truths. Talking about deeper truths, Brentford won, Leeds United won. Really an echo of Merseyside Derby's past in this one because two old Liverpool-based veterans had the day, talking about the city, not the club. First, Jordan Henderson honoured Diego Jota beautifully with his celebration after his first Brentford goal in his 600 game in English football.

1:05:33It looked like it may have given B's the points, but Dominic Calvert-Lewin, love you, Dom. Had other ideas, equalised in a style that was honestly phenomenal to witness. Fourth in four games for DCL. And I know the resurrection is Easter, not Christmas, but it is so unbelievably, I say, just joyful. It feels so fulfilling, Roar, to witness that man's joy on the football field again. This podcast, Rog, is pro-Dominant Calvert-Lewin and pro the causes of Dominant Calvert-Lewin and always has been. And it's one of the most heartwarming stories of the season. Just to see him scoring goals again, feeling confident again, looking like his old self.

1:06:13And he's always been a bit streaky, DCL. But when he's in that hot streak, he's a brilliant player to have. He's an incredible weapon for leads. He needs to feel loved and be loved. And he is a player where everything is possible and without those two, just nothing feels like it's going to happen for him. I do, I find it incredibly humanly rewarding to watch his happiness. Leeds now have a three-point cushion ahead of West Ham just above the moon door of the relegation zone. Manchester United host Bournemouth tonight. United now loser of just one of their last nine games. Amorim's boys. I mean, maybe not worth a full-blown haircut, but at least a shape-up yet, guys, which means let's close with, why not some human darkness?

1:06:56Chelsea 2, Everton 0. Somehow Everton were winners of four of the last five. I don't even remember them either. We were in seventh place, two off the top four. I'm just saying this for my own benefit. Didn't we almost have it all? I don't know who we are anymore, but I also knew going into this, we had not won at Stamford Bridge since 1994. And yes, Chelsea hate December. And yes, they had no wins in four. They'd just been humiliated at Atlanta in the Champions League. And yes, this is meant to be Kieran Juiceby Hall's revenge game. Gent in the form of his life, ready to wreak vengeance and levels known only to Liam Neeson and taken one, two and three.

1:07:36But my God, his happiness lasted 14 minutes, limped off with a hamstring knack. And that's kind of where you felt it was not going to be our day. Having said that, Everton open with confidence rule. We knock the ball around. I think this is the best opening spell I've seen this play. this season, which can only mean one thing. Chelsea's first meaningful attack, 21 minutes. Gusto slipped in Cole Palmer, making his first start. Welcome back, Cole, in the league. Michalenko switched off, of course he did. Palmer raced in, gave a little picky the eyes. Jen's first goal since September. First appearance at Stamford Bridge since August.

1:08:12I was watching Raw with my eldest son, Samson, who'd come back to watch it, and he just broke my heart in that moment. He just turned to me and said, Dad, I've forgotten how miserable watching this team makes me feel. I'm not sure that's a warranted response given the circumstances. They are still, even at that point at 1-0 down, Everton are in the mix. This is not a season when Everton are going to get relegated. There is no worry of relegation. There is no need to sack the manager and start again. Everton are having a nice time. Yeah, but even the nice time, like in moments like that, you remember this is who this is because we are so good at football right now but so inherently limited without any fullbacks or a striker so we're almost good which is actually worse than being bad being almost good is is honestly more frustrating because we kept creating and passing and moving and almosting and then stroke a half time again couldn't defend the most basic element of space.

1:09:12Pedro Neto sliced and diced. Paul Michalenko again set up Gusto for a fine, fine finish. Chelsea ultimately did this by having the composure around the net that we just lack completely. David Moyes asked after the game for the main difference between Chelsea and Everton. He said, maybe a billion pounds. Well, that's it. And I think the one thing that's holding Everton back the most is that the positions where Everton are lacking are the ones where it costs a fortune to reinforce. And the talent is pretty rare. So if you put a top class number nine or a top class kind of inverted winner or whatever into that Everton team, then they would get a lot better.

1:09:50But to do that, you need to persuade a 70 or 80 million pound player to play for Everton. And that is without all jokes aside, that's tricky because if there's a player who's worth that much money, clubs with sort of grander horizons than Everton will be in for them. Yeah, I mean, you talk about that. I'll get to that in a minute. I've got to say for Chelsea, I hope Fafana and Chalabar were just terrific. just took the wind out of our sails. We needed a goal. We couldn't so much as coax a shot, I think, in that second half. Our dreams turned to shattered dreams, as they do. And it wasn't just a loss, this game.

1:10:20It was like utterly debilitating because of those profound vulnerabilities you just identified that are so unbelievably evident. And then also to live the darkness of the memes. It's not just how do we coax players to come to us. It's how do you keep the great players with us? You know, fans are now agonizing. This is modern football. Forget the game. We now have to watch Rhys James talking to Ili and Dai post-game. Both men have their hands over their mouth. And Chelsea fans are going, wow, this means Dai is Chelsea. Here we go. And Everton fans are like, it's just innocent talk. It doesn't mean anything.

1:10:53He's off to AFCON anyway. But this is modern football. Everton-Stamford Bridge curse continues. We've not won since the World Cup. Was last in America. I think next year will be our year. But first, don't miss this exclusive limited-time ticket. offer. Bank of America has teamed up with Visa to offer new Bank of America cash rewards cardholders a chance to purchase up to two FIFA World Cup 2026 tickets. Get the details at bankofamerica.com slash card FWC26. But Raw, we have to finish up a quick Chelsea note postgame in a weirdly premeditated way. Your winning coach Enzo Maresca decided this was the moment he would announce that the previous 48 hours were his, quote, worst as a Chelsea head coach.

1:11:41A lack of backing for him and the team. It was a very odd, curious choice of words. It's been taken as a thinly veiled shot at his owners. No one quite knows what he means. It was cryptic. I think it was intentionally cryptic, but that creates a vacuum. And nature thinks it hates a vacuum, but football media hates it even more raw. So we've all got to analyze it. I don't know if you've got anything to add to this weird one, but it was definitely a choice. Yeah, it was a really strange moment because, okay, Chelsea's form had dipped a little bit since they beat Arsenal 1-1 and it looked like maybe a lot of the feel-good factor around Maresca had started to dissipate a little bit but there was no real sense of it being a club in crisis.

1:12:23It's not like they can be arguing about transfers just at the moment because, well, one, it's December and two, surely Enzo Maresca can't possibly think that his owners aren't going to do enough transfers. Like that is normally what that means. That kind of there's no support. That normally means I want to sign a player and they won't let me. But it's Chelsea. So surely the likelier problem is that they want to sign nine players and Maresca doesn't want that. So I don't have any insight into what he meant. But it does create just a little bit of a cloud because now you're wondering, well, actually, hang on.

1:12:55How happy is this camp? How unified is everybody? is there some tension behind the scenes that could yet kind of derail what's been a broadly positive season for Chelsea? And that's not great. God bless that man who constantly seems in waves to be on the ins and the outs. And it's an incredibly difficult way to just to live anybody's life emotionally. Maybe he needs that. Maybe Enzo Maresto needs to feel something, Rog. Maybe just stuff being fine bores him. Maybe he just needs to have some sort of crisis afoot. So when there's nothing going on, he sort of thinks, actually, do you know what, I'll go to war with the owners.

1:13:32Let's go to war with the owners and I'll see if that wakes me up. Maximum edger, Enzo Mareska. But let us finish with some quality footballing insight, finally. From a GFOP, Heather from Brooklyn, self-described big fan of the Arsenal, the Gotham, US women's national team. And in her words, are oft beleaguered US men's national team. Roar, do the honours. And Heather has, and I quote, a radical idea that I think is a solution for both Tottenham and the USMNT, which is not an acronym I like. Not quite, by the way. No other nation does that. It's so fascinating. On one side, we have Thomas Frank, genuinely great coach, but who will likely not last a season at Spurs.

1:14:12We can go into all the whys and wherefores, but ultimately we know where this is headed. That's quite sad. And here in the US, we have Maurizio Pochettino, also an immense talent. But if we're really honest with ourselves, not a great long-term fit for the US men. but more to the point, a guy who genuinely wants to go back to Spurs. Spurs! Her emphasis. It feels like being in a relationship with someone who is still pining for their less hot ex and that doesn't feel good for anyone. Also, how is someone pining for Spurs going to lead us to World Cup victory next year? It's a good point. Chances are they get knocked out early.

1:14:43Hear me out. Before he gets snapped up by another team that doesn't understand or deserve him, we need to jump on Big Ange Postacodlu and lock him in for the USMNT. stat. Yes, I'm talking before the World Cup. That fast and furious style of Ange ball perfectly fits the US mentality. Just imagine the delightful havoc that could be wreaked with both Diego Luna and Gio Reyna on the pitch under his gentle but chaotic tutelage. Bring in Clint Dempsey as assistant, approve of that, and the new era of US soccer fever will commence. What better way to attract new American soccer fans? Added bonus, Big Ange won't have to flinch when he calls it soccer.

1:15:20As an Aussie, he's been calling it that his whole life. I can't see any possible hitch in this plan, except that I don't have any pull here. Maybe you can reach out to your contacts to help make this happen, but please hurry. We don't have much time. Thank you in advance. Kind regards, Heather. Well, I mean, the specifics, I don't really quite co-sign, but I do love the idea that teams can trade managers instead of players like that old, terribly named reality TV show, Wife Swap. By the way, I'm sure Liverpool fans would love to try and think about how they play that game right now. But Ro, what do you think of this?

1:15:56Because there's something about it that makes me feel a little woozy. So I think that there is a logic to it. I agree with the basic idea that I think US fans would warm to the style of play that Poster Coddlew advocates. I think that it would be good to watch. Funny enough, I think that Ange is in a footballing sense, he's quite American. Oh, he's quite American. He feels like an outsider to that kind of internecine, quite insular European football world. And I think there's quite a lot of American fans who see in Ange kind of an avatar for how they're treated or how they are kind of addressed almost.

1:16:35So I think there is a natural symbiosis there. But at the same time, and I want to make this very clear, I think it's a dreadful idea. I think it would not be a good idea at this stage or maybe at any stage, to be perfectly honest, because I'm not sure that that style of football will work at international level. Yes! It has to be. You need time to understand Ange's system and international coaches don't have time. So what you get is a terrible version of it. Exactly that. Yeah. We would self-amulgate. I mean, by the way, it is fascinating to see. I'll say this, what Mauricio Pochettino does after the World Cup, whatever happens.

1:17:13Because when he was hired, he was introduced as a man who'd be with us for the long-term big picture. And I'll just say, we will see. I think Big Ang though, yes, intellectually fascinating as US coach. I'm very fond of him. His team talks would do massive numbers on social media. But what you're saying, Ruan, and hinting at this, international football is, well, coaching is mostly about vibes and creating team culture because the coaches have so little time with their team. And so Ange would be very good at that. But international football is also more about being defensively robust. Stay with me here about kind of sneaking goals from set pieces or on the break.

1:17:55I will say Ange's kind of tactical star, which is best described as charging at the machine gun pillbox together, I think would utterly prove disastrous at international level. So if I could choose, this is what's so weird about your question. If I could choose one Premier League manager to run the US team, Well, it would probably be Jurgen Klopp just for the collective joy and the belief that he can give players when they take the field that they can win, which I think is really critical. Confidence that he believes in you just makes you superpowered. But a coach that I would take, Ruhr, is Thomas Frank.

1:18:29Because we are essentially in the US the Brentford of international football. You know, their style of football under him, defensively robust with a clear idea of how we're going to score, which is so critical in international football. I think that's what we need to go deep, baby. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Frank is a much more naturally suited manager to the international game than Posta Codlu. Posta Codlu has been in charge of Australia previously. If Ange was in charge of Brazil, it might work. If he had better players than everybody else, maybe. He's not going to be in charge of Brazil, so we don't need to worry about that.

1:18:59But Frank, I think, is perfectly suited to international football, which is basically a pragmatist's carnival. That's what it is. It's who can compromise the best with limited resources, even for France or England or Spain, the countries that have got huge amounts of natural talent. You still have to make compromises to get a team out of these slightly kind of, these slightly like offset resources. And Frank is much better at that than Posta Codlu. So yeah, if you're going to do a straight swap, Pochettino for Frank isn't a terrible idea. Pochettino for Posta Codlu and then what, Frank Justein at Tottenham.

1:19:32If Heather's an Arsenal fan, maybe she's happy with that. I don't know. that doesn't make as much sense to me. But I think Pochettino will do all right with the US, especially with the group that they've got. The ticket prices mean that there won't be anyone in the stadium, so that'll be fine. The group that the US have got they should get out of, into the knockouts. Pochettino is a top-class coach. He is a tactically very astute coach. So as long as... I haven't done the bracket in my head to kind of learn it, but as long as you don't run into one of the top five or six favourites in the first knockout round, The US would look at the last 16 and the US in the last 16 of a home World Cup would be pretty spectacular.

1:20:11Let's dream as 2025 charges into 2026. That's what we need to hold on to. That is it for today. I'm actually off to London this afternoon to go and play chess with a Premier League footballer who I think is going to crush me. I'm also headed back to Bournemouth to finish off the year with Tyler Adams and take your questions and have him answer them. this is actually the last pod for us until the beginning of January look out for a ton of end of year content that we're taping tomorrow together in London also a John Oliver special which is a tradition unlike any other on this network at the end of the year but Roar you beautiful human being from the bottom of my heart thank you thank you thank you I'll see you tomorrow Rog have a safe flight by the way I love saying that I love hearing it this is Rog saying let's not take a second of watching football together for granted Big, big love to all of you and your families over the holiday period and courage.