Chelsea vs Arsenal Thunderdome football and Liverpool drop Mo Salah: Men in Blazers 12/1/25

26:45Are they for real? 100%. I think watching that performance yesterday, it's really hard not to see a difference. you've used the phrase I would it was a coming of age performance that's exactly what it was the circumstances of losing losing your kind of maybe not yeah maybe best players pushing it but your most consistent player your most reliable player like the linchpin of your team to a red card after less than half an hour and then facing down the champions elect and ending the game Rhys James said this afterwards ending the game disappointed that you did not win that showcases how well Chelsea played it showcases their mentality it shows that there is something forming at Chelsea.

27:22I don't know if they're ready yet to win the league but if they can, and it's quite a big if in Chelsea's case because of the ownership model if they can add a couple of players to this team then they're really really close. You mean as opposed to adding 10? They just need a couple? Yeah, as opposed to signing 14 and selling 8 you don't need complete change, it doesn't need another revolution if Arsenal wobble then it looks to me like Chelsea are to be taken seriously this season. I don't think Arsenal will wobble enough for Chelsea to kind of make the most of it. But yeah, within a year or so, you can see that Mureska is building something.

28:00And it's not just with the superstar signings. It's not just Esteval and Cole Palmer, even Rob Pedro. He's been out since September. Yeah, so they've done all this without their most creative player. But it's not just those kind of big names that get the headlines and get the attention. It's the fact that, yeah, he's turned Marco Carella into a really, really good left-back. he's getting the best out of Wesley Fofana who's had such problems with injury there is a real team taking shape at Chelsea I watched the game yesterday and thought this team is a coming force By the way Pedro Neto has been for me one of the lights to watch this season Arsenal, where are you in this performance?

28:34A performance with so many injuries on one hand I think they'll feel with deep relief that they emerged intact from this quite brutal test What bigger percentage of them be frustrated that they couldn't finish off this game and they had a man advantage for, what was it, like 52 minutes? Yeah, a lot of the reaction here, Rog, has been kind of Arsenal lacked the killer instinct, that they were too cautious, that they should have gone for the jugular against Chelsea, that because they played for so long with a man advantage that you are expected to win. I think I take the same approach as I suspect Mikel Arteta will, which is Stamford Bridge is one of your hardest fixtures of the season.

29:12Chelsea are in a bit of a purple patch. They've hit form. They've only lost once since September. They are a good team. They were second. You've drawn away from home and you've taken a point. That is a point closer to the title. It is not two points dropped. And by the way, for me, the Arsenal story is the big picture story. And if I was an Arsenal fan, I'd be elated to be a third of the way through the season, to have so many players seizing their moment, knowing their role when they're given the moment. and to be five points clear at the top, which I think for Arsenal is the only thing that matters right now.

29:50From during to winning, Roar, West Ham nil. Liverpool 2. It's not a typo. But this is who we are now. Liverpool fans, we talked about it, slightly quaking at the prospect of a visit to Bubble City. That's what happens when you're A, defending champions and B, you've experienced the unprecedented freefall of nine defeats in 12 games, worst run in, what, 71, 72 years. Just a fog of a team. A team that strolled to the title last season, supposedly strengthened for$594 million and instead, no energy, no composure, no decision-making in the performance. No fight recently, just the basics gone. The old phrase being thrown back in their face.

30:35Can you say, leave the football before the football leaves you about an entire squad? Here, West Ham, fired up by the quite emotional passing of Billy Bonds. West Ham talisman when I was a kid. Just a warrior who bled claret and blue in the days when football was truly unbridled ferocity. Had 799 games for the club. Played until his 40s. I think he returned when he was 41. In today's currency, that would be like playing until he was 60. Captain during two FA Cup wins in 75 and 80. in this moment in this context Raw the decision fatefully made cometh the hour drop us the man 33 year old Mo Salah finally dropped to the bench for the first time since April 2024 been playing like he has a glitch like an Airbus a slot careful to say after 53 straight Premier League starts that he had been rested we played 4 games in 10 days sometimes Alex is on the bench sometimes Florian this is the 11 I chose today.

31:36Was this for you the least shocking, shocking moment that's come to pass with AFCON coming? He is well prepared to lose Mo for a long spell or how did you understand this? Yeah, you can read it both ways. You can say either Liverpool had to get used to the idea of how do you play without Mo Salah or is it not in the club's interest just to use him as much as possible until he disappears for AFCON because ultimately Liverpool don't really care how Egypt do in the African Cup of Nations. That's not their responsibility. It's really sad that Salah's form, Liverpool's form, over the last few weeks has brought everyone into this situation where there are lots of Liverpool fans proclaiming that they want Mo Salah dropped.

32:14Because it's hard to see that sentiment and not think maybe that's not how you should talk about one of the five best players in the club's history. But that said, I think in terms of display, like form, it's not a controversy. Like Salah's not been playing well. I actually thought he was okay against Nottingham Forest. but even against PSV three days later Liverpool's latest Nadia you watch him and you think well it's not just that he's not impacting games in the way he used to or that he's not dominating games, he's not the central figure, the main character of games it's that even in those instances where he gets a sight of goal he's sort of ballooning shots over the bar, he's putting them wide I think if it was any other player there would have been no quibbling about the fact that he'd been dropped and ultimately there comes a point where every player has to kind of be treated the same.

33:06They have to be subject to the same rules. Slott went for a slightly more balanced, slightly maybe more cautious team. And I think given the way that everyone's been playing, it was probably called for. Mo out, Joe Gomez in, making his first league starter right back since September 2023. It's almost a lovely surprise that you got through the first 10 minutes without conceding Raw. I mean, this is where we are now. Nuno, content to let Forrest sit deep, Pope in to defend and counter later. Early on, Liverpool had all the initiative. It's fascinating watching Wurtz in the early exchanges, Raw. I watched this game twice, just so I could watch Wurtz, who became ever more influential, but the early exchanges, Raw, you watch him so frustrated that his teammates couldn't find him on repeat.

33:51It was really fascinating to watch when play just passed him by, worked out how to influence the game ultimately. But bloody hell, thinking about his mind space, must be so frustrating to go from a Xavi Alonso's system designed always to play to his strengths individually to playing in this chaos where Gapau and Gravenberg don't know how to find him all the time yet yeah those bonds those connections within a team they take time they're not instant I mean I guess occasionally you know you'll get a team and a player that just kind of dovetail naturally and that that can be magical Rog but in most cases you have to kind of work each other out you have to figure out where do they like the ball what spaces are they going to be in how do they like to receive the ball How do we make the best of them?

34:34And that is for Liverpool to learn. But it's also to an extent for Wurz to learn. Like, Wurz has to learn how to kind of be in positions that his teammates are inclined to play him the ball in. I guess that'll be different in the Bundesliga and the Premier League. There will be a bit of kind of cultural crossover there that he has to get used to. But I think in his absence over the last week, one thing that I took from it, Rog, one of my key learnings, was that Florian Wurz hasn't been affecting games. But he does make Liverpool better. They look more lively when he's in the team. They look like they have more ideas, a bit more energy, a bit more faith in their own ability.

35:10Because as much as he's maybe not got the output yet, as much as the goals and the assists aren't there, he does continually show for the ball. He does continually try and make things happen. The way players operate is that they will know from training just how good he is. So his presence will make them feel a little bit more confident. And I think what you saw in the game at West Ham was as he settled down, as they settled down, they were able to kind of extricate that a little bit more. Yeah, I mean, that's called foreshadowing, Raw. I've got to say, Isaac, that first half looked flat-footed.

35:44I wrote in my game notes, he looked as if Beto and Tierno Berry had a red bastard baby. First a bold save from Areola, point-blank Wurtz, could have, should have scored on the striker half-time. A poke with just the keeper to beat, which he failed upon. He's had just three passes in that first half. But West Ham did not so much as summon a single shot on target, which was astonishing to me against a Liverpool that had conceded 10 times in their last three. This stat was amazing. Liverpool's 11 starters had scored a combined 152 Premier League goals in their careers, which was 38 fewer than Mo Salah's 190.

36:20That was the pressure that they were playing under as they toiled in that first half. Second half, West Ham went corner after corner to begin with, became nervy fair, but then the magic happened. Just how Liverpool drew it up in their dreams, and by dreams I mean the summer transfer window. Wurtz fed Gakpo, who found Isaac on the edge of the area, and the Swede quite instinctively just thrashed that ball home low near corner. Stunning strike, really an emphatic moment. Very little reaction from Isaac in the second on the outside. Anyway, finally a Premier League goal after, what was it, 382? dark moments.

36:58A very difficult finish made look easy. To me, Roy, this was like seeing a very constipated man just eat a bowl of great fibre and become completely unconstipated with the entire world watching. It was like mocking meme-shattering this moment. Significant. That is a very evocative image, Roger. I'm glad you've chosen to go for that one. But I do know what you mean it must the primary action for for isak and i think for quite a lot of liverpool fans was relief that that first goal has come that he's broken that seal there's still a long way to go it was a really it was one of those goals that makes you think that goal scoring is instinctive it is an instinct and i think not every player has it isak very clearly does his career tells you that but whether he can do it reliably as you say i mean he's still he's a difficult player to judge because he's one of he's he's kind of a traditional number nine he doesn't do a huge amount in the game, doesn't contribute a vast amount to build-up play.

37:55He's kind of there, and he's there for moments like that. That said, I think the fact that West Ham chose not to mark the most expensive striker in British history as he stood on their penalty spot, I think that's a choice, Rog. That's a real choice. By the way, you're right, there's more to come. Still managing his playing time slot. He was pulled off slightly, like minutes after that. Liverpool actually let West Ham into the game, especially when Fulcroft came on, but then Paqueta got two yellow cards for descent from Darren England. I don't know if you've got anything to say on this. It's like an odd moment, a surreal moment.

38:35What I can say is he's clearly working hard on his sarcastic applause in training. He's very good at it. It was, I think, the weirdest sending off I've ever seen. I can't think... Maybe that's hyperbole. I can't think of one to rival it. The reaction of the players around him is really telling. As an Everson fan, I'm like, I can't. It is the second weirdest sending off of the week, Rod. And that's saying something. I think if you look at the reaction of the players around him, they're really telling. So Sobber's life baffled by why he's so upset. like Sabal's eyes looking at looking at Pacquiao as if to say what have I missed something you then have Alisson the Liverpool goalkeeper run out of his goal to try to stop Lucas Pacquiao his opponent but teammate for Brazil getting himself sent off and every time Pacquiao's given a kind of out you know Jared Bowen or Alisson or Curtis Jones someone kind of stops him he sort of circumvents them and goes back to complain at the referee it's he's come out and tweeted to say that it's kind of a consequence of all that he's been through with the perspective ban he had for betting on matches.

39:44He's been exonerated of that, found completely innocent. He basically said, both in Portuguese and in English, that it's the stress that he's been under that's made him behave that way. In Portuguese, he kind of apologised. In English, didn't come quite as close to apologising for it. It looked a little bit more kind of excuse-making in English. That may well just be because it's his second language. which we have to be forgiving there. But it is certainly amongst the weirdest non-Everton sendings off I've seen this season. God bless. And to better days for all Hammers fans. By the way, West Ham did come alive with 10, but Liverpool killed the game off late with a Gakpo finish.

40:21Finally, Liverpool having a better week than Campbell Soup. But you could tell by Gakpo's reaction when he scored. Little joy, just pure relief. That's the mindset at Liverpool right now. First point on the road since mid-September. Benching Salah made the team look better. It would have been a total bloody disaster if that final break lesson emergency change had not worked, Ru. Yeah, the Izak's goal, which I hope is an important moment, just I don't love human suffering. He's clearly been suffering. Wurtz, the best player on the field, clean sheet too. What did you feel at the final, Whistle?

40:55Relief again. I think that, as you say, the reaction of Izak and Gakpo to the goals is really telling that there's no joy in it. I think a lot of Liverpool fans would say that, and I'm certain the Liverpool players would say, that it's one game. It's one game against a team that's currently 19th in the Premier League who did not play very well. West Ham had been in a little bit of form. They'd started to turn the corner a little bit under Nuno, but this was not West Ham at their best. It wasn't Liverpool at their best particularly. It was a competent performance. And what I said at the start is true, that I'd gone into that thinking, do you know what, I'd take a point.

41:28I'd just take not losing a football match. so to win is a real bonus but the reaction within the club and from the fans will be we've got Sunderland on Wednesday night who are flying and then you've got Leeds away both of which are games that Liverpool if they are to be a team that fulfils their own expectations would want to win You'd take two points I'd certainly take four would be fine Rog but yeah there's no guarantee because it's just one game as you say it's a sunny day in a nuclear winter so I think there's still work to do it's not it's not that the crisis is over or that everything's fine or that or that slots found a found a solution I think you know ideally you'd go into that Sunderland game with Joe Gomez at right back but but there is no there's no way of telling whether Joe Gomez can play two games in three days having barely played for a year so there are lots and lots of questions over Liverpool some of them were answered on Sunday but not all of them I mean amazingly you're in eighth place now.

42:27One point off the putative fifth place that's good enough for Champions League which I think is all that matters right now. In the craziness, the chaos of this season, there's darkness but there's light so unbelievably bloody quickly. One quick question. In the hyperbolic scale, is this the beginning of the end for Mo Salah at Liverpool? Will November 31st 2025 be remembered as the beginning of the post-Mo Liverpool era or is it just that? A moment a moment of a club bottoming out and do you fully expect him to be back and thriving if not against Sunderland then at least against Leeds at the weekend?

43:04My sense has always been that this will be Salah's last season at Liverpool. I know he signed the two-year contract extension in the summer but it makes sense to me that the club would have kind of done that and Salah would have done that thinking actually maybe after a year then it's time to move everybody on or for everyone to have a fresh chapter in their lives, Rog. If this is the beginning of the end you'd like to think it won't end like this, that it won't end with him sitting unhappily on the bench while the team grows into something else without him. He deserves a golden swan song. He deserves a run of form in which he is the Mo Salah that Liverpool fans will remember.

43:40Whether he gets it or not, I don't know. I mean, I think there's a lot of focus again over here on whether Slott has upset Salah. But again, they're all footballers. They're all teammates. They're all part of a squad. So really the challenge now is for Salah to win his place back. That's how it works. It's not that he's such a big star that Slott has to keep him happy. If Salah's not performing and the manager has decided he's not performing, then Salah's job is to perform well enough to get back in the team. There's no exceptions because of what you've done. That is brutal, but it is how football works and has always worked.

44:15So it's kind of, yeah, it's a two-way street, I think, and that gets forgotten. And talking about being forgotten, Manchester City 3, Leeds United 2 this is Haaland versus the city he was born in when his dad played for mighty Leeds this is third from top versus third from bottom Manchester City vulnerable four league losses already this season last one against Newcastle reinforced by the damp squib 10 change surrender in the Champions League against Leverkusen midweek all the big boys back for this one facing Leeds in the relegation zone score of just 11 goals total on the season I think only Wolves have scored fewer.

44:54By the way, it's a repeating thief. Wolves are the barometer of doom for everything. Just like the benchmark. And well, I'll say Leeds lasted longer than many of us thought they would. 59 seconds was all it took. Nunes scurried down the right, pulled the ball back, Phil Foden stuck in before Haaland could get to it and smashed it in off the bar. It would soon be two. Leeds goalkeeper Lucas Perry made flippy floppy, trying to punch a city corner clear. Gvardi all cleaned up the self-inflicted slop. It did feel like game over. Could have been 4-5-0 at halftime. But City do not do easy. They let Leeds back into it.

45:29Farker changed her. Almost mirror Leverkusen's tactics that had done City in Europe. They rampaged down the flanks into space behind Tanaka. So strong leading the fight. City gifted a goal to the quite beautiful Dominic Cavaloo in a man who needed one on as a second-half substitute. DCL then drew a penalty after Gavardial made an ill-advised decision to chop him down and blow me down. A mecha from the penalty spot, slotted aside initially by Donnarumma. Savor of an incredible career, one in four penalties that he faces, but the ball merely bounced right back to the taker, smashed it in. In those moments, I always remember Churchill's old quote that there's no better feeling than to be shot at without result.

46:12For the striker, that feeling of missing, just that agony, and then scoring the rebound reprieve must be just the ultimate mood swing. I've got to say, Ro, if I could change one rule in football, to me it would be the ball's dead as soon as the save comes in. It seems crazy to me. I've got it in my head, Rog, that the rule used to be at one point that if a penalty hit the post or the bar, the taker couldn't touch it until somebody else had touched it. That might be wrong, but that is what I think the rule used to be. they have subsequently changed that but I do wonder whether it might be improved if if the goalie saves it the person who took the penalty can't shoot that might reward the goalkeeper a little bit more because ultimately with penalties and this was a hilarious penalty because Jostro Gradiol absolutely smashed Dominic Albert-Lewin then pointed at the ball as if to say he got it in a way that was like I mean it's we underestimate how good acting footballers are in the minute that There are Oscar-worthy performances every day in the Premier League.

47:13Moises Caicedo's injury pretence. Caicedo in the movie, pain. Jostro Vardjol in the movie, innocence. But I wonder whether, yeah, there is a world in which you could maybe tweak it a little bit. It ultimately is massively in the taters' favour. If you miss and the goalie happens to palm it straight back to your foot, I'm not sure you should be rewarded for that. I totally agree. By the way, I like your new rule. that other players can finish it. These are the defenders and the attackers of equal measure. I do think that the goalkeeper should be given three seconds just to laugh and celebrate before someone else can touch.

47:48It's the only tweak I'd make. There was chaos. There was confusion. I mean, this second half, Leeds showed real fight. Still under there, under there. Much maligned manager Daniel Farker. But 91st minute, Leeds have begun to sit back and salvage the point. probably stung a little bit by their teams willing for fantasy to leak an injury time goal when Pep's son Phil Foden picked the ball up on the edge of the area cut across goal, lashed in a dagger of a winner with wicked curve into the corner Gavardiole, by the way, magic for him leaping over the shot with admirable big hops it was so cruel for Leeds it was so massive for City and probably an even bigger relief for the broadcast cameramen who were on the brink of getting it from Pep again after the final whistle roll absolutely it's a blow for Leeds Rog it's a lot of confidence to take from that performance and the fact that they almost went to the Etihad and touched something but that is the sort of thing that happens when teams are in real trouble is they put in really creditable performances and get nothing out of it still reasons to be cheerful they play Liverpool next week Chelsea and Liverpool Chelsea and Liverpool but for City the one thing I really that I think has drawn a little bit under the radar is Phil Foden is really stepping up which makes a difference for England ahead of the World Cup to have an informed Phil Foden, that's important.

49:05But we've been saying all season that City need to find someone to score goals who isn't Erling Haaland. They have. I know this is an odd set of emotions. To score three times without Haaland having a sniff, in some ways, that's the good news. But there are those vulnerabilities in that performance which are so unbelievably evident and need to be fixed. City, Sunderland next weekend, going to be fascinating for Pep. Talking about vulnerabilities, Tottenham, one. What? Fulham two. It's the best of times, the worst of times at Spurs. I know best of times is doing a lot of heavy lifting there, Tottenham fans, but you're in the Champions League.

49:42I think before kick-off, three points off to Champions League places is still, despite everything, massive wins on the road. But we always talk about how there should be an emotional sentiment table, and I do think Tottenham may even be rivalling Wolves for just how low their fans are. That bare-ass walloping in the North London derby. The five goal leak at Paris Saint-Germain midweek. Thomas Frank desperately needed a win here for vibes purposes, for optics purposes. Talked about creating front foot football and he did in this one. Unfortunately, it was for visiting Fulham who did all the front foot football in the opening exchanges inside two minutes, 18 seconds.

50:22This was an agony, even as a neutral. Tete swooped in on a miss hit cross, stabbed him off a massive deflection. Spurs were reeling A second goal almost immediately. Just utterly, utterly self-inflicted wound. Vicario tried to be too clever with a clearance from his own corner flag. Dribbled a little, then tried to play it low to feet. Succeeded only in finding it was King who fed Harry Wilson on the touchline. This moment, first time, computing flight, trajectory, physics, velocity. Just instinctively arcing a stunning curler into the empty net. This was the earliest roar that Spurs had been 2-0 down at home in the Premier League.

51:03The last thing they needed, peak Spurs, had been achieved. I wouldn't normally criticise another media organisation, Roch, because it's poor form. But I am watching the game and messing about with my phone at the same time. The Athletics tweet described Vicario dribbling out, being caught and presenting Harry Wilson with an open goal. And I think that's really unfair on Harry Wilson. Harry Wilson was not presented with an open goal. That's like AJ for England being set up by Foden, you mean? Yeah, he was standing on the touchline. And the finish is genuinely extraordinary. And I know that the focus is on the mistake that Vicario made and the fact that he then got booed off by the Spurs fans.

51:44But there will be lots of goalkeepers all around the world who have presented the ball to an opponent in that position and got away with it. and the fact that Wilson finished first time from the touchline so confidently that he was wheeling away to celebrate while the ball was still in the edge. He knew he'd hit it perfectly. It's a genuinely astonishing goal. It was a beautiful moment if you're a Fulham fan. It was an agony if you're a Tottenham fan. It was gobsmacking because Fulham had just set up so astutely. But even they couldn't believe just how woeful Spurs were in that first half. Back line so open.

52:21If it was front football, the intensity of Spurs was undetectable. Chemistry nowhere to be found. It was an incoherent shape, an incoherent performance. The XG, I mean, Spurs just keep plumbing up, serving up these XGs, which are like from another planet. 0.07 at home against Fulham. This is becoming a frayed nerve of a problem. Second half, Boos welcomed the Spurs back as well as ushered them off. There was an uptick in fight briefly. Fulham dropped back, ceded space. Kudis took advantage, an exclamation point, but it wasn't to be. On one hand, you've got Tottenham, the injuries for their creativity, Kulisevski.

53:01Maddison, Spurs chance creation has really hit famine levels, but that front line's so blunt. There's that statistic, Tottenham averaging just 9.5 shots, 3.2 shots on target per game, both of which are their lowest on record in a single campaign. And behold, they fumbled at home again Again, against Fulham, losing to Fulham for the first time since 2016. Again, only Wolves have a worse home record than Thomas Frank's boys. We've won this once in front of their home fans. At this point, their fans almost come expecting to boo rather than to cheer them. Ange had more wins at this stage of the season last year than Thomas Frank.

53:39Football is the opposite of the front foot that was promised, Roar. The Thomas Frank inspiration that kind of coated his leadership at Brentford, that has long been tarnished this season. I hate this question. Is Thomas Frank's tenure at Tottenham in danger of stalling out? It shouldn't be. And I think we shouldn't manifest that into reality because it's four months. It's a squad that's been massively hampered by injury. It's a club that finished 17th in the Premier League last season. So there is a point at which you can't expect too much. The bigger issue for me with Spurs is I wonder if we all, as a broader football environment, kind of misunderstood the complexity of what Thomas Frank has to do, which is that he has to take a load of players, most of whom would have been brought up to think that there is a way that you play and you never change it.

54:30The coach teaches you their system, you learn that system and you just execute it regardless of circumstance. And Thomas Frant's whole thing is that, look, I'll be completely different this week to last week. I will change constantly, which means that my opponents can't figure me out. I can take advantage of their weaknesses. It's inherently reactive, which is kind of a dirty word in football now, but really shouldn't be. Again, it's how things work for a long, long time. And I think that's a massive mindset shift for Spurs' players. They're clearly struggling with it. It's more pronounced at home than away, because at home they're expected to be the kind of active team, the team with agency, the team sort of determining the nature of the game, a way they can be more reactive, which is why they're better.

55:14Even that 5-3 defeat against PSG, they were pretty good against the Champions of Europe. They did okay against the Champions of Europe. They scored three times. But it's whether he can sustain this home form and not lose the goodwill of the fans, that's a really tricky thing, especially somewhere like Spurs. Yeah, we've talked a lot about this recently, about the modern predilection of fans coming to games, appearing to willfully want to boo their team. I mean, I gotta say poor Thomas Frank said post-game, I didn't like that our fans booed at him, meaning Vicario. They can't be true Tottenham fans because everyone supports each other when you're on the pitch and we do everything we can to perform.

55:53I'm fine with them booing after the match, no problem, but not during. That is unacceptable. Well, look, never a good sign when a manager is trying to be put in a position to take on the team fans because there's a disconnect then. And that disconnect always needs a sacrificial lamb. And the manager is really the easiest lamb, if you will, in football. I agree with you, Ro. Thomas Frank, to me, deserves patience. But I think from a Spurs fan's perspective, put myself in their shoes. They've been asked for patience for so many bloody managers. And I don't think he's going to get any, especially because you've talked about this.

56:28Well, first of all, he was appointed by Daniel Levy, who's now gone. And new regimes don't have much patience or don't tend to with bad optics that they inherit rather than appoint. And secondly, we're not really talking about this. This flaccid Spurs moment is in the context of Arsenal looking invincible, which makes the shadow cast on Tottenham feel even darker, right? Yeah, 100%. I was going to say that, Rog, that one of the issues that Frank has got is that you say that the fans are going to the stadium ready to boot. who of course they are, because their hated rivals, in what is without question England's pettiest rivalry, are top by five points and about to end more than two decades without a Premier League title.

57:10Tottenham fans are in a really bad mood. You kind of need to be aware of that. They're going to be in a bad mood all season, because something bad is about to happen to them. And I think what you need in that situation is to have a manager who they believe in, that they feel that they are building something, that they might be able to have a moment like Arsenal are about to have or should have at some point in the near future. And as it stands, it must just feel to Spurs fans as though they're drifting. And that is a massive factor. This stuff isn't happening in isolation. Yeah, there's that all that we talk about often, the Steve Coogan quote, if you give your average English person the choice between their own success and your failure, so I choose your failure every time.

57:51But what happens if you then succeed? That is what I think Spurs fans are grappling with. Not only their own failure, but Arsenal's success. And it is really an agony. Quick word for Teecock in our Discord, who said, it's been a long time since pundits considered the match a full and win rather than a loss for our opponent. I'll say this was a huge win for Marco Silva. His team were flagging with no summer spend. I think we've just won. First team striker available, but they are back. Resurrected, like so many of their players, You look at that squad, Sessignon, Jimenez, Wilson, all of them, in their own words, recovery jobs.

58:29They have now won three from their last four. Godspeed. Talking about big wins when they needed it. Crystal Palace won. Manchester United, two. A game fascinating. It used to be a slam dunk three points for United. Quietly become one that they had not won since July 2020. Totem of their transformation into Grey Gardens FC if you ever needed one. I think they'd lost three of the last four against Palace. the bullied now doing the bullying but playing in Europe which they did midweek they lost against Strasbourg Palace I think they'd lost two of the last three after a Thursday European night Oliver Glastner said it's been a pain it's been a growing pain and they look leggy in this one but United also did Sean the injured Seshko and Cunha really tootless in the opening exchanges Palace opened the scoring Adam Wharton came on this show in his interview he talked about how he likes to put a message on the pass.

59:22This message that he delivered was almost to Joros saying, please foul Mateta as he charges into the box. Mateta buried the penalty just, but then Varsoury double-kicked it. Another penalty tour. We should have a sponsored segment on this podcast, Raw. IFAB updated their rules on double touches on penalties. When the kicker touches the ball accidentally with two feet, it has to be retaken. Old Goat in our Discord, I love this rule. Said the kick should be allowed to be taken again, but the kicker like in the NFL should have to drop back 10 yards and be slightly punished. I love that. This is the Alvarez rule, isn't it?

1:00:01They introduced in the aftermath of Julian Alvarez double-touching a penalty for Atletico Madrid. I think it was Real Madrid in the Champions League and it being ruled out, which cost Atletico Madrid the game. To be honest, I kind of think if you double-touch it and score anyway, it's probably fine because you're the one who's it's the striker who's who's suffering from the double touch it makes it much harder to score so I'm not you know it's not something that that I have a passionate belief about Rog particularly but my sense is if you can touch it by mistake and still score maybe it should count double I love I love actually that the referee should say 10 yards from the spot of the foul move the penalty 10 yards back and do it from there maybe not 10 yards 10 yards back is too much which maybe it should be you have to move it five yards either side.

1:00:49And you have to do it with your other four and tell the goalkeeper where you're kicking it. Just keep changing the rules. I love, I love. By the way, I do see a future of football where it's all just reduced to penalty kicks. But God bless Mateta. Since Oliver Glaston's first Premier League game in Feb 2024, only Erling Haaland and Mo Salah have scored more Premier League goals than JPM. By the way, young fans won't know who Mo Salah is. but I'll just say it's a very good stat. Could have had more. His one-on-ones were supremely rusty in this game. What was shocking about the early United performance was they had such an attacking formation and have been so blunt but they've been tenacious even when they've struggled over the past two months and everything changed.

1:01:34Once Palace keeper Dean Henderson put on his baseball cap United fought about with a stunning moment of audacity. Free kick found Xerxes on the left near the byline. No danger but Zerksy was feeling dangerous kind of swaggered unleashed an airbender of a shot that defied trigonometry I believe the XG on that shot was 0.03 which is just a chef's kiss way to end the 364 day dry run for Manchester United then nine minutes later Mason Mount this was an odd one the wall was still setting up the ref blew his whistle anyway Bruno sensed the danger credit him took it quickly and suddenly Mason Mount just thrashed it right through the wall into the net and United I looked at this I was like harsh on Palace shattered by Europe but you saw United Europe free rule all that midweek training that they've had and Amarim actually talked about this that they've worked on their set pieces on the training ground but it was hard to tell how much of this second half was United playing stronger football how much was just Palace feeling way off I think a little bit of both to be perfectly honest the fact that United aren't in Europe is a massive advantage for them.

1:02:42But at the same time, we know that they can produce good displays. They're clearly growing. They're getting better, Manchester United. They still look inconsistent. They still look a little bit uncertain of what they're meant to be doing. But they are improving, and they're improving rapidly because they have that training time. Palace, unfortunately, are finding out one of the universal truths of football, which is that playing midweek in Europe does impact your Premier League form, and vice versa. It's really hard that first season when you have to go twice a week. And it's especially difficult, actually, in the new format because you have more games, so it affects you more.

1:03:17Palace, their 12 unbeaten at home stretch. Going back to February is now over. Massive win for Amarim after that flatulent loss to Everton last Monday. Two smart finishes. First win in fourth for United, who are up to seventh place. Never mind the quality. Feel the width. Also got the joy of Lissandro Martinez back from an ACL injury after nearly 300 days out. Football, not always pretty, but the fight, the tenacity, to me are signs that Ruben Amirim is hell-bent on haircuts for all some time after Christmas. Godspeed. Aston Villa 1, Wolves 0. Proper Midlands derby, gripple grapple. Wolves last savoured victory back in April, but they were passionate here.

1:03:59They were angry. There was fight. Some measure their best performance of the season in new manager Rob Edwards' second game. By the way, that's a bit like me saying, My hair is at its longest. At Rich Baggy tweeted, almost Christmas and Wolves still have less points in the triangle. Oh, that one hurts. Villa won it in the 67th minute. They are remarkable. Most Villa aways, bangers only at the moment, Raw, Bubakar, Kamara stepped up, thrashed home. They've had nine goals. I think that's 56 % of the ones they've scored this season from outside the box, which is in this modern football of stats, it's XG busting.

1:04:35I think it's the most any Premier League team has ever had after 13 games, the most long-range goals that a team has ever managed. Part of me, the cynical part, Roger, wants to say that's unsustainable. But then part of me thinks, what if they're just really good at shooting from long range? Surely that's okay? Yeah, it's also a toupee for the fact that they really do need striking options very badly. Irrespective, third place for the Villa, three wins in a week. An incredible narrative. I mean, a joke at the beginning of the season. They were 19th after five games. But at the same time, this Villa squad still so clearly a work in progress, still so clearly many needs.

1:05:13I just look at Unai Emery and what he's done. This, I think, was his 61st win in 114 Premier League games at Villa. joint most for any manager who's led the Villa in the Premier League era already. We've talked about that old classic trope from Italian managerial legend Giovanni Trapattoni who said a good manager makes a team 10 % better, a bad manager makes it 30 % worse. In the modern game, Unai Emery has proved that the percentages either side are far, far more than that. Yeah, a huge amount more than 10%, Roger. His impact is enormous. the fact that he's been able to do it so consistently since he got to Villa is extraordinary.

1:05:54They are, as much as Man City are Guardiola's Man City, or Arsenal are Teta's Arsenal, Aston Villa are a kind of conceptualisation of Unai Emery's managerial ideas. They are his team, more than most teams belong to a manager. He is their central figure, he is their great hope. And the way he's turned it round is incredible this season, Villa now back in the chase for a Champions League spot, looked like the Villa that we've seen over the last couple of years. Having had that dreadful start is extraordinary. And two other games. Brentford for three, Burnley one. Oh, JJ, what a failure pain. An exchange of late penalties made this game come alive.

1:06:35It felt like it was going to actually end as a draw. But then Igor Thiago had other ideas, put the game away, delivering Burnley's fourth straight loss. An incredible finish. Brazilian's 11th goal in 13 games. I admire him greatly, a story we've talked about before, a 24-year-old actually started to play serious football very, very late, then broke his meniscus in pre-season training after he made that big Premier League move, had to sit out almost an entire season. I'd say mentally, that must have been just devastating for him. Lesser players would have crumbled, but he's returned with a vengeance, really a tribute to his own play, but also to the Brentford striker pipeline, which is unparalleled in football.

1:07:17When Brian Mbumo and Johan Wiese left, everyone predicted they'd be relegated. The goals would dry up. But now only Erling Haaland has scored more Premier League goals than Igor this season. A symbol of a brilliantly run club and a young Brazilian. I can't believe the ecstasy he's feeling, Roar. This kid, who wasn't even scouted as a teen, now being talked about as a possible Brazil World Cup number nine. He's like City of God if City of God was a footballer. Yeah, it's an amazing story. As you say, he's been through so much, late starter, and then that injury, which basically meant he started the season as a kind of forgotten player.

1:07:54I don't think anyone really remembered that Brentford had spent a lot of money on him, that he had done really well in Europe. The fact that he's now the second highest scorer behind Haaland, that he looks completely at home in the Premier League, and that, to be honest, if he was a slightly more famous name, he would already be in the Brazil squad. I spoke to a Brazil-based journalist the other day who said that the issue is that Brazilian fans don't really know who he is, so there's no clamour for him to be in the team. And there's a little bit of snobbery, I think, about the fact that he plays for one of the lesser Premier League sides.

1:08:23The Brazilians generally aren't that impressed by that. But if he keeps this up, it'll be really hard for Carlo Ancelotti to ignore him. And that would be an incredible way for his story to go if he ended up at the World Cup with Brazil. Also incredible, Nottingham Forest 0, Brighton and Hove Albion 2. A Forest have come in unbeaten in five games, all cops, coming off a fine 3-0 midweek victory over Malmo in Europe. Last Sunday's 3-0 beatdown of Liverpool. A statement win, which is effectively Sean Dyche ripping off his jersey and declaring, I'm out here, MFers. And I did love Glenn Murray on co-coms before this game, saying that the Forest players were, quote, starting to look comfortable under a Sean Dyche regime.

1:09:05I just say, take it from me, there is never any comfort for any player in a Sean Dyche regime. I think you just have less terror over time. Visitors at Brighton's side came with a memory of a 7-0 beatdown in this same game 10 months ago. Here, the Seagulls were bright but profligate until just before the break. Highly intelligent Danny Welbeck near post run dragged the Forest backline out of shape. And Maxime de Kuiper collected calmly, finished emphatically. Belgium's first goal for Brighton, their 19-year-old Greek substitute. Stefano Simars made it two late in the second half after a comical mix-up in the Forest backline.

1:09:44And Hurtzler's mob, just their second away win of the season, move up to fifth. With a clash against top four hopefuls, Aston Villa loading midweek. Raw feels like every single pod we talk about another Green Shoots team of hope. Sunderland, Palace, Bournemouth now Brighton is it a sign that this is the best Premier League season ever trademark or the worst in that so many teams are vulnerable beatable on any given Sunday or Saturday? Yeah there's an element of Rorschach's test about it I think you can look at it and use it as proof of either I would put myself firmly in camp A I think that this is the strongest the lead has ever been there are so many teams who've been able to scout well, to spend well, to retain talent, to replace talent when they have had to sell it, that what you've got now are kind of 15 or 16 teams who can basically beat each other.

1:10:40And at one end, there's maybe Arsenal, and let's throw in City, I suppose. And at the other end, there's maybe Wolves and Burnley, who are a little bit weaker. But everybody else looks pretty much the same, really. And I think the last week is quite good evidence of that. So Forrest go to Liverpool, destroy Liverpool, then have a home game against Brighton, which in the form Forrest are in, should really be another three points. But Brighton are significantly better than Forrest. Whether Brighton then get beaten by Villa, I don't know. But there are other examples elsewhere. Bournemouth were, a month ago, one of the form teams with a lead.

1:11:17Now they're not. Sunderland have come up, invested really well, looked great. and I don't want to kind of pre-empt anything, Rog, but Everton as well, a quite good example. You know, great result against United and then what happened this weekend? That was the most predictable unpredictability of all though, Ro. The Sunderland game was fascinating. Sunderland 3, Bournemouth 2, 7 versus 8. J-Dubs called it the cuddly classic out. I wrote in the Friday's newsletter, this was a bit like watching mumble from Happy Feet play a team of Care Bears. It was just like joy-filled. Even though the stadium alight was pitch black at 3pm, with rain absolutely lashing down, which made the game, I mean, both ironic in an Alanis Morissette way and also just absolutely electric.

1:12:00Bournemouth took a 2-0 lead inside 50 minutes. By the way, the number of people tweeting us and in our Discord being like, oh, the Sunderland bubbles burst. I do need to interrupt your regularly scheduled programme to celebrate a wonderful moment, ultimately an irrelevant moment, but a great American moment in Premier League history. Tyler Adams, the Prince of Wappingers Falls, pounced on the Sunderland turnover in his own half, drove into the open space and then just like looked up, saw the goalkeeper off his line, went full David Beckham, Wayne Rooney. Wayne Rooney came on after doing that for DC United.

1:12:38I asked him what he thinks about it because the ball's in the air forever. What's he think about? He said, I think about the goalkeeper. I just think, please don't try and save it because you're just going to look silly. And I thought about that when I watched Rufus try and save the ball and end over just going tit over arse. Roar, as an American, it's easy for me to get carried away when I see one of our boys perform a major laser from 47.4 yards out. Optus said, furthest out goal in the last two Premier League seasons. But you're a neutral, you're objective, you're a journalist. Can you just confirm, this was a lovely special moment, right?

1:13:14It was an amazing goal, absolutely incredible goal. and you're right, the rain, the torrential rain just made everything in that game look special made it incredibly bad tempered but that goal was just beautifully, perfectly judged and there's something, the tension of waiting to see where the roofs will get back whether it'll drop under the crossbar it's just, it's exquisite it's an exquisite way to score a goal Yeah, I actually texted with his family because I wondered whether it was actually a pass by Tyra but I'm like, no, he looked up and everything like it was a stunning bloody moment We're filming with him on Sunday after the World Cup draw, and I can't wait to break it all down, even though from that point on, everything flipped.

1:13:53There were 15 minutes, 2-0 up, Bournemouth cruising, but in the words of Lee Corso, not so fast, my friend. 30th minute, Sunderland earns a penalty. Enzo Lefez smashed it. It was an anger penalty, the best kind. And then 60 seconds after halftime, really clever Granit Xhaka slipped past to Bertrand Traore, finished near post 2-2, fourth assist of the season for Granit. Then 69th minute, nice. Sunderland corner. Brian Brobby again, only scores winners. Thrust it over the line, 3-2 for the comeback. 30 games into this Premier League season. Sunderland are in sixth place. They're above United, above Liverpool.

1:14:34I mentioned last week that I interviewed Regis Labris, asked him how he's forged this new collective out of all these different parts. And he just laughed and said, I don't know. So let me ask you, Roar, because everybody told me there would be a flash in the pan. How do you understand it? Newly promoted team coming back from 2-0 down to defeat a pretty accomplished Premier League outfit and continue to defy the haters and the faders. Yeah, and as you say, it must have felt, certainly in the stadium, and maybe even among the players, you know, as Bournemouth went 2-0 up, they will be waiting to an extent, there'll be something in the back of their minds that their bubble might burst, that they might hit a roadblock, that things might get trickier.

1:15:13and yet they just keep kind of meeting these challenges and overcoming them you know it was the same against Arsenal a few weeks ago their belief must be growing day in day out game in game out they've got far more points than anyone anyone would have possibly believed at this stage of the season they look like a team that can sustain it they've got depth they've got quality they're really astutely managed it is it's amazing how quickly they've been able to do it and look it wasn't cheap, all of that recruitment, but they spent pretty much all of the money really well. And it's working. It's the first time in the club's history they've come from 2-0 down to win a Premier League game.

1:15:49They remain unbeaten at home. So what could possibly go wrong? Their next three games, December 3rd at Liverpool and Manchester City, running into December 14th against Newcastle, the tying away at Derby. It's an incredible one. Godspeed. Enjoy it, Sunderland fans. Away the lads. Talking about enjoying and not enjoying. Finally, Everton won. Newcastle, four. I mean, we've laughed about it already. God bless. This is like so Everton. An ecstatic win against Manchester United last Monday, in which our captain, Seamus Coleman, limped off, injured after nine minutes of agony. Then our midfielder, Gay, slapped Michael Keane, his own teammate in the face, got sent off.

1:16:29Everyone was like, what? On our MIB Discord, GFOP at B O 'Leary asked, where were you for the great Everton civil war of 2025. But we had no time to answer because down to 10, we only went and scored a worldie to win it. The most Everton, are we game of all time? And I just knew, going into this, when Everton expectations are this high, we fairly failed to disappoint all the bloody time. Newcastle had not won on the rotting table. That was the other big clue. And so it came to pass. We're utterly smashed in this one. Not a lot to talk about. 52 seconds in. Chou scored, I think the earliest goal of the season, first to two for him, too romped.

1:17:11They were stronger, smarter, more dominant in every facet. And even though Kieran Duesby-Hard scored a consolation banger, it was just crappy Thanksgiving. We are so floored, no fullbacks, no strikers. We are so self-maiming. But Roar, here's what I'd say. I am still so nourished. I'm still laughing. I am still celebrating that Old Trafford win. And there is something about football. whatever happens and darkness and good things, but whatever, we'll always have that moment. The Blue Boys after that game on Monday night celebrated as if they won a trophy. And I love it because that was a comedy.

1:17:46I think like Leslie Nielsen's naked gun is like a comedy classic. That Everton win was up there. And to me, that's honestly all that football's about. I think that's a very positive attitude, Rog. Yeah. Winning at Old Trafford is much more memorable than if, you know, if you'd taken a point against Newcastle at home. There is something special about beating Manchester United generally, but also beating Manchester United in the context of your midfielder got sent off for slapping his teammate is inherently very funny and very enjoyable. The Newcastle game, which obviously you don't want to talk about, I do think that in this version of the Premier League where things are so balanced, where so many teams are capable of beating so many other teams, I do think scoring the opening goal is becoming increasingly important.

1:18:32I have no statistical evidence for this, Rog. I might do some research this week. Maybe on the plane. Let's find out. I do wonder whether the team that draws first now is increasingly likely to win. I realise that obviously that's not true of Sunderland-Bournemouth. But it felt as though Everton-Newcastle in particular was that kind of game where Newcastle are probably better on paper, got a stronger team, and Everton were at home. They have been a little bit more consistent, roughly in the same place in the table. very minor differences in terms of points. It felt like whoever scored first would win just because it changes the game so much.

1:19:05And because Newcastle scored so early, that kind of makes a big difference. We should have got points just because it wasn't Anthony Gordon that scored us. I do want to say, Tiano Barry, who tries so hard, this striker who has not yet struck, he's 24 years of age, he thought he'd scored in this one. It's actually a really heartbreaking moment. Reminds me of Milhouse in The Simpsons when you can go to the video and find out exactly the moment that his heart breaks. Thought he'd scored. We were 4-0 down. He ran off and just celebrated as if he'd just won the game, but it was really for him. He'd finally scored.

1:19:40And then the referee vored it off for handball and the build-up. And my God, that was an agony. But important to remember, young listeners, if your sports team is the most painful and unreliable part of your existence, you're doing pretty well in life. and I believe that utterly. But Rory, you're right. I don't want to talk about it. So let's close with a letter from a GFOP, Jacob Geiber from Atlanta, Georgia. Rory, do the honest. Dear Rog, Rory and the MIB team, I noticed that Wrexham started both Nathan Broadhead and Ryan Longman today against Blackburn in addition to Dan Scar, who are other players in your all-time starting XI with body part or body description related names.

1:20:20I'm terrible at stuff like this, Rog. You are. I thought you'd be really good at this. My brain doesn't work like this either. But I'll play for time for you by just saying and let you please God, you'll come up with somebody. But when I had kids, each time I had a friend, and everyone needs a friend like this, a man called Eddie Portnoy, who had call when my wife and I thought we'd come up with a name in the maternity ward. And I'd tell them what we were going to name them. And he'd immediately, on the spot, tell us how they could be teased with a name on the schoolyard, the seven-year-olds. I really wanted to call my second son Lazer, but he pointed out immediately 100 reasons not to.

1:20:58He's like, he'll be teased like this for years. So I do think about this through this lens, how hard it would be to have been Nicky Butt if you were not really good at football, Rob. Yeah, Nicky Butt is one. I mean, as I say, I am terrible at this. Are you really? The furthest I got was Mano Maneses could be manager, because Mano means hand. That was us. Wow, that brain's going to some duolingo places for this one. I feel like head is probably quite a rich seam to mine. There will be players who've... For the Anglo-Saxon days. Yeah, you know, there are lots of players who have got... I mean, Dean Whitehead was a player.

1:21:36Incredible. But this is not my forte. David Seaman. I mean, that's a different level of joke. But yeah, I mean, that's... I suppose that is kind of body part related, yeah. I mean, Michael Ball. Yeah, God bless. We're there now. By the way, we've hit a seam now. We are. You just reminded me of a game of Michael Ball and Everton player. Everton had the winger, Mike Treblecock, who scored twice in the FA Cup final. Of the current crop, Jacob, I'd say my favourite is probably Alphonse Areola. I do think about it on a weekly basis. Leader in the Body Park clubhouse run. Yeah, I think Alphonse, that's a really good shout.

1:22:16Alphonse Areola is a wonderful kind of masterpiece of a Body Park related name. I don't think we're at a full 11 and this is not a good team because it's got Manu Maness as a manager. It's got Dean Whitehead and Nathan Broadhead. I'm not even having Longman, to be honest. That's not a body part. That's just Longman. Scar, I quite like, to be fair. But Alphonse Areola will be the goalkeeper. The rest of the team, I think, is up for grabs. Godspeed, Jacob Geiger. And remember, GFOPs, join our Discord, which I love spending match day in. You bring such joy to our life. Jacob, send us your post-it.

1:22:50We'll send you a patch. keep sending us your questions at meninblazers at gmail.com, we'll answer everything but that is it for this week before we go, I've got to first give huge thanks to Bank of America, the official Bank of US Soccer and the FIFA World Cup 2026 for supporting all of us at the Meninblazers media network, discover what's possible in sports and life what would you like the power to do? we have a William Saliba interview dropping on December the 3rd we're filming with my personal hero Tommy Fleetwood the day after, UTFT, and then Roar comes out for some World Cup action to the United States.

1:23:28Roar, I can't wait to be with you, you beautiful Crown Prince of Harrogate. We've got so many food recommendations, Rog. I'm quite intimidated. I'm not going to eat between now and Boston. That's my point. I'm going on a juice cleanse. I joke, I joke. This is Rog sending you big, big love. Let's not take a second of watching football together for granted and courage.