Manchester United Shock Arsenal, Manchester City Rebound, and the Secrets behind Michael Carrick and Liam Rosenior's Emergent Success: Men in Blazers 01/26/26

24:07Roger Bennett:Sled down Jack Black to definitely play Casemiro. No, no, I think Jack Black, you know, Casemiro is a perfect cube. It's why he's going to bring it with that energy, that insane unhooked energy. I was trying to work out who would play. I mean, there must be maybe a whole season about Harry Maguire and his rise and fall and rise and fall and rise and fall and ultimate rise. I was telling you, which actor has that perfect slabhead and could really bring it to capture the full emotional range that is Maguire? I mean, I'd watch an entire show just about Harry Maguire. Yeah. That would be fascinating.

24:40Let's get rid of the United part. Yeah.

24:43Roger Bennett:Maybe you start it in like 1908 or whatever, when Newton Heath are formed, when they become Manchester United. you whiz quickly through all of the history until they sign Harry Maguire and then you do three or four detailed seasons just on the Maguire arc. There's a spin-off, there's a comedy show, there's loads of stuff. The Harry Maguire extended universe would be wonderful. I do need to draw a line under this because we're giving away our creative ideas for free and then we're going to have to sue and all that stuff. But I will say, people who are listening to this and are going to put it into action, I've given it a bit of thought.

25:14Mass actor, massive forehead, can encapsulate the full range that is Harry Maguire. Walter Goggins, it's a gift to you. It's a different type of slab, I would say. Is it really? Yeah. The Goggins-McGuire is like, I mean, golden globe. There's not enough Gs in there, baby, that can contain that performance. I do want to button up both games. I mean, it is unreal, but this is modern football. At the final whistle, we do need to reflect. There were boos splintering around the Emirates. I mean, this is Arsenal who had not conceded three goals, I think, in three seasons. It was also their first home defeat of the season.

25:52Look, the wobble is real on one point. Just is it two points each out of the last possible nine? Lead cut to four points. They still have to play City. This was a significant moment, undoubtedly. I can't remember a worse performance for Arsenal this season when it really, really mattered. None of the vaunted options off the bench seem to make any kind of substantial difference. Again, leaders four points, 15 games to play. Pep Guardiola just called this the best team in the world. But this loss, Ruhr, for the fans, definitely. We will see for the players. It was oddly chilling. Arteta said post-game, he said mistakes are part of football.

26:31Today we got punished in the end. We have to show the mental strength we have on match days. The mentality question, Ruhr, for Arsenal Football Club

26:40Roger Bennett:is now going to be right back there in the crucible. But the thing is, you can't prove it until you've proved it. That's the kind of bind that Arsenal are caught in, that no one will believe that you have the stomach to win until you have won. That's the reality of it. So Arsenal, they have to prove it to themselves 15 times now. Ultimately, they have to prove it to themselves 15 times. There are 15 individual game units that they must approach individually. There's no kind of broader season. They have to prove that they have that kind of mentality time and time again. They're at Leeds next week, which will not be easy.

27:15Roger Bennett:That will be a hostile crowd. It will be a team that's in decent form, slowed up a little bit. And Arsenal are under pressure because all of a sudden, yeah, it's two points from three games. To be honest, a very, very average Liverpool team held them to a draw at the Emirates. A Nottingham Forest team that is 17th held them to a draw at the City Ground. And then they've been beaten by a Manchester United side whose main advantage is emotion. you're allowed a wobble in a title race you can win the title having had a wobble but you can't allow it to go on otherwise it starts to burrow into your confidence so Arsenal it does feel without being too hyperbolic and maybe just a little bit of an inflection point they need to find their way through this as quickly as they can yeah the first time I ever interviewed Arsene Wenger he was still just off his pump he said the main task that separates a great manager from a good one is the ability to respond to a loss and prevent one loss from spiraling into a free fall of two three losses so huge huge pressure back on Mikel Arteta it was interesting watching Patrick Vieira the leader of the Arsenal invincible title winners on Sky in England he said there's still some question about the mental strength of the team it's not the fact they lose but it's the way they lose there was a lack of creativity They need a leader.

28:35That was really interesting to me, to lift the spirit of the team. Arsenal is a really lovely squad of relatively humble, quiet boys, Ruhr. You know, they have Saliba, they have Gabby, Big Gabs. But it is, I mean, you look at it in that moment. There was not a leader on that field who was barking around, creating order out of chaos.

28:59Roger Bennett:But there's also not many people in that squad who've won league championships before. That is significant. that they don't have a load of players who they've signed from clubs where winning was habitual. Ironically, Jokeres at Sporting won a title. Different context, obviously, but he knows what it takes. But beyond that, there's not so many, to be perfectly honest. Gabriel Jesus, having done it at Manchester City, albeit not necessarily as a central figure, I think you do need people in a squad to set those standards, almost to remind everybody else, this is OK, this is what it feels like, This is how it works when you're going for a championship, that there are weeks that don't go in your favour.

29:38Roger Bennett:And I don't know who does that at Arsenal. And I worry a little bit that it means that that fragility, that kind of panic's too strong, but that sense of anxiety and nervousness that you feel in the stadium, you can kind of see it in the players a little bit as well. And that's not ideal. We need to finish, though, by just revelling in this moment for United fans, for Michael Carrick's United. What's he done, man? I mean, it is amazing. He's been there, is it like 12 days? An Arsenal fan who I know and love texted me the only possible rationale, I think. He said, Michael Carrick is clearly a witch.

30:14He's in league with Lucifer. But to follow that giddy Manchester United derby win by going to unbeaten at home, league-leading Arsenal, slapping three goals past them, it's remarkable. As was the fact that his game plan worked. Denied Arsenal a sniff, really, from open play once the game opened up. The change in this team, fielding his players in their natural roles, power through simplicity, that friction under Amorim between a fundamentalist tactical idea and the mismatch of the squad is now removed. And United, most of all, they're fun to watch again. They're proud again. They're suddenly swaggering entertainers who score goals that for their fan base are more than goals.

30:55They're energisers, moments of wonder. that make your pulse soar and create the memories that United used to like Liverpool when they won titles, made memory after memory after. They'll remember the Dorgu goal. They'll remember the Cunha goal for a long, long time. And let the debate begin right now about Carrick, job permanently, statue, how big.

31:17Roger Bennett:This is where we are already, isn't it? Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that this ends with Michael Carrick getting the job full time. What I don't know is whether he might actually be really good at it, to be honest it's possible i was thinking this over the weekend that this is a lead of really fine margins and we think of that generally in terms of like knowledge opposition analysis data fitness conditioning sports science marginal advantage yeah all that stuff like this this the kind of really detailed stuff like what you know what's what's he done to to change their nutritional balance so they've got that extra three joules of energy or whatever emotion is one of those things emotion can be one of your secret weapons you can, I think you're completely right Rog, that he's changed the system to one that suits the players, that's probably quite a good idea he's making the most of the attributes that United have and what they do have are two really really good orthodox winners in Ahmad and Dorgou, you've got a proper number 10 in Bruno, this all makes sense, that's all relatively easy to see easy to spot, simple, keep it nice and straightforward, that works but I wonder whether the other thing that character's done is just giving them like an emotional purpose like you're trying to restore Manchester United there will be an interesting test to come because they will play teams who do not attack them as City and Arsenal did they will have to break down their fair share of low blocks that's what the Premier League is these days and to be honest they should be under a degree of pressure to make the Champions League because they're playing once a week for the rest of the season and nobody else around them is so it's kind of in their hands to an extent but from the first week it will be a club that feels full of confidence, full of soul, full of happiness, full of joy.

32:58Roger Bennett:And that's quite an important weapon against teams like Chelsea, Liverpool, even maybe Villa and City who've got a lot more kind of anxiety, a lot more complexes, a lot more neuroses to deal with. That's a nice segue. Although what you've just said reminds me of two things. Number one, the marginal advantage and the search for. I remember making a film about Southampton when they were surging in 2014. Everything was going right. Their depth chart, their youth academy, their transfers, everything was perfect. And I remember being introduced by the director of football to their kit man. And he was very proud.

33:32He said our kit man is currently working on the chemistry of washing detergent. He thinks he can get our club play 1 % better by making the washing detergent cut through the air at a slightly quicker pace. and I was just like, what? God bless, especially to all Southampton fans in every regard. But when you're talking about Carrick undoubtedly getting the job, part of me would love it when he is inevitably offered the full-time job that he just does like a James Brown used to on stage where they put a crown and a cloak on him and he'd tear off the crown and he'd tear off the cloak and throw it on the floor and say, I'm not worthy.

34:09I'm not worthy. I'd love it if Carrick was offered the job and he said, no, don't be crazy. We've done this cycle. I'm the person, not just going to restore the club. I'm also going to be the one that shatters this cycle of madness. I don't want the job. Appoint someone permanent, but not me.

34:24Roger Bennett:That would be absolutely the right thing to do, Rog. Great episode of The Crown coming soon on Netflix, which I just love also. There's always an abdication. Yes, I know. Who would play? Who would play Michael Carrick? Put it in the comments below. But you mentioned Manchester City. Let's talk about them. Who saw this coming? Manchester City 2. In form, Wolverhampton Wanderers 0. Cometh the hour, uncometh the men. City in a humbling tailspin, losing not just to United, but at Bodo Glimp. This happened midweek. Just the Arctic's best supporting actors in the Champions League squad. I think they're worth total£66 million.

35:07Brought down the mighty City squad. Costs£1.65 billion. a 3-1 humbling that saw City leaking goals up the gut, blunt up top. So for this one, Erling Haaland dropped. Norwegian Shaq had started all 22 league games so far. Phil Foden also dropped after starting the last 19. Both were perhaps overplayed. City over-reliant. Possibly ground down. Your favourite YouTube influencer, Roar. This is amazing. Had not scored an open play in his past seven games.

35:39Roger Bennett:Yeah, it was a remarkable drought by Haaland by anyone's standards of that level, but certainly by Haaland's standards. I think that is right. Guardiola had relied on a real core of players to kind of get City back into form, get them back into the title race. And we'd seen that they were starting to run on fumes, to be perfectly honest. So as much as it seems counterintuitive to start a football match without Phil Foden and Erling Haaland, it might well be that City see the benefit of that. Yeah, I mean, they were playing Wolves in 20th place. Yeah, 14 points from safety. But they'd almost demonstrated in recent weeks the fearlessness of doomed, condemned men, and beaten in four, arguably the Premier League's form team, they were hot, hot, hot.

36:16I turned on expecting this to be a real psychological test for a slightly vulnerable city. But on six minutes, Mateus Nunes, who'd been booed by travelling Wolves fans as their former player, whipped in a really an arch cross to silence the taunters and blow me down. Omar Mamouche got his foot ahead of Muscara's head. 1-0 City, City back, crisis over, rubberneckers and haters go home. But I've got to say, City did not look comfortable, nor invulnerable. Walls pressed. Old goat in the Men and Blazers Discord informed us that the Germans have a word for it, which I think is pronounced unbehagen, which is feeling uneasy, uncomfortable, unsettled, without necessarily appearing weak or defeated.

37:02It's a nuanced word. It's like not comfortable. and that's what city were, it's what city are. I guess in America you say mildly bothered.

37:10Roger Bennett:I think, I mean, no one admires the German language more than me, Rog, but I think the word uncomfortable conveys that just as well, if I'm honest. Is it really? Unbehagen? Sometimes you don't need to cite German. Do you think the Germans are like the English you've got a word for? What's that? Oh, crap. Great, yes, they say crap. The English have this really evocative phrase, they're feeling uncomfortable. yeah I think that sums up how City felt not in any great peril particularly but just slightly uneasy I don't know if the Germans have a word for that Germans who are listening put it in the comments City felt like they should have got a penalty after Omar flicked the ball back and Mosquera made himself bigger swatted the ball a bit like the Kembe Mutombo lengthy VAR review ref being sent to the monitor and he went against VAR insert contractually obliged weekly I don't even know what a handball is anymore comment there were nerves continued to stroke all the way to half time and then Cherky and Silva interchanged to feed Anton Semenyo in the box his first touch utterly stunning created separation and he kind of thrashed low lash to bring utter relief Semenyo was just on this show you'll find it on YouTube probably the link in the show notes talked about his incredible rise He's playing for teams like Bath, Newport County, Bristol City as recently as 2023.

38:35But man, he looks like he fits into a pep team, a Manchester City jersey almost instantly. Is it three goals in four City appearances? I think just one less than Savino already, 11th of the season. If I'm Haaland, we're all looking on for the bench. I'm like, yay, first, we're team, three points. But also like, oh my God, he looks like he fits. He's been playing for us forever. that is a proper golden boot threat.

39:00Roger Bennett:I think what Haaland might see is, thankfully, someone's here to help store goals. Because that's the other thing that's been an issue for Haaland, is that most teams know that he is, by so far, City's main goal threat. You can double or treble mark him. Foden was starting to cut into that a little bit. But the more players City have got who the opposition are truly worried about, the better it is for Haaland. Clean sheet for City. The Polish debut for Enter the Dragons, Mark Gehi, who arrived from Palace for£27 million on a very, very healthy wage. Wore his custom, Isaiah, 54-17 football boots, no weapon formed against you shall prosper.

39:39And from a City perspective, odd to say this in a title race, but this was a very, very welcome win. We've got a really lovely interview with a quite fascinating Tajani Reinders dropping this week. Another fascinating clash. Oh, I'm wearing my jacket, especially for this one. Objective journalist. Bournemouth 3, Liverpool 2. Roar. Mo Salah back. Relax, everyone. He's back from AFCON, like a new season of a television show that kind of has taken so long to come back that we've forgotten it. The crown. Yeah, the crown, Manchester. Don't get me off on that one again. By the way, a Liverpool crown would be very, very, very, well, not for me, obviously, but that would be a fascinating show.

40:20But that's for combo for another day. Liverpool entered on their unbeaten run, vaunted by no one. I think you'd say unbeaten run is like the pleather of unbeaten runs. The ersatz kind of like splendour. Is that how you compare it? It's like draw-filled, undefeated run of 13 straight games.

40:39Roger Bennett:It was kind of nourishment in the way that like Soylent is nourishment. Do you know what I mean? Like it's enough to get you through, but no one's enjoying it. Doesn't taste nice. I mean, it is. I mean, we can admit that now. It was almost broached as a stick with which to beat them. An upbeat, like to raise the stakes. And they rumbled down to Cuddly Bournemouth. Slightly bedraggled bowl of cherries. I think we described them as just one win since November. And that was against Spurs. I'm not even sure it really counts. Best player, Semenyo, just sold. Plus so many injuries. Cliver, Tavernier, beautiful Tyler Adams.

41:14Feeling slightly the crackle of the heat of the relegation battle on their backs. And Liverpool opened, or attempted to open, doing a good impression of a confident team. Took them nearly 40 minutes to manufacture a shot on target. But Arna Slott set his team up to play very, very, very compact. And Bournemouth took advantage in the 26th minute. Virgil van Dijk. I think in Arna Slott's awful words, I've already said them earlier, he didn't like it. But Virgil at the climb scene again. Tried to flick a foot at an easy clearance, to be honest. by his standards, whiffed it. Alex Scott, best Scott since McTominay, stayed with it, pulled it back forever, Nielsen, to steam him and finish as Joe Gomez and Alisson kind of keystone copped into each other.

42:01Virgil, I mean, turning into almost a god with clay feet this season.

42:07Roger Bennett:Yeah, I think the thing with Van Dijk is that whenever he makes a mistake, there is this kind of desire to leap upon it as though everything he's achieved in his career has been a myth. and so everything gets overplayed because he you know he isn't like an immortal it's not like Thor is playing centre-half for Liverpool so I'm slightly reluctant to buy into this idea that he's been terrible this season and actually his legs have gone and what have you but there have been quite a lot of occasions where he's been at fault for goals and as much as again there's this tendency to say that whenever Liverpool concede the first thing that happens is Van Dijk turns around and points at somebody else I think that does happen and often it's legitimate because he's kind of making a point like that ball shouldn't have come in or you should have been covering there.

42:51Roger Bennett:But quite a lot of the time, it does feel as though quite a few of his teammates might want to point at Van Dijk. He is suffering, as all of Liverpool's players are suffering, from terrible form. Yeah, I mean, by the way, I think Verge would say he knows when he points the finger at somebody, a thumb is pointing back at himself. That's what I'd say in his defence. Isn't that how it works? I don't even know. But I think you've just nailed something actually in this social media age that when we say Virgis' form has dropped, we also have to now say we have to because we only believe in absolutes.

43:20Everything he ever achieved was a myth and it must therefore be wiped off. It's all the lie. Yeah, Denigri. None of it counted.

43:26Roger Bennett:Yeah, he was never... That goal proves he was never any good ever. And you see, this is a little bit of a tangent, but you see the comparisons with players like Rio Ferdinand and Nemanja Vidic, like absolute greats of the Premier League age. And you sort of think, well, but I saw all of those players make mistakes. And I don't... This sounds really sort of pompous. I don't know whether it's an age thing, but yeah, like John Terry made loads of mistakes because all defenders make loads of mistakes because it's really hard being a defender in the Premier League. Whereas it seems as though with Van Dijk, every single one is used as absolute proof that he is in fact terrible, which I think it just feels a bit to me like it's excessive.

44:03And always was. Joe Gomez hobbled around for a little bit in the wake of that and then was off the field. Liverpool played for 10 men for some time. I think it took seven minutes to replace him, a fatal amount of time in which they were totally open, and Bournemouth scored again. Again, down the flank, Hill slipping Jimenez in for his first Premier League goal. Contract, you have to say, because we have to. Van Dijk played him on. Yes, haters. Jimenez, though, slotted through Alisson's legs, but because it was Kürkés, that perfect cube of a left-back, who is a Bournemouth recent defector, who switched off to let Jimenez in.

44:38Roger Bennett:Goals should have counted doubles, shouldn't it, Rob? Do you know what? I actually rescinded, not quite rescinding what I just said. I think that goal's Van Dijk's fault, not Kerkes'. I think it's a good run from Jimenez, but I think Kerkes is trying to play an offside trap. And if Verge steps up, then it doesn't count. God, that's so interesting. Finish your point now. So that means... Verge is terrible and always was. Yes, amen. Don't you feel better about yourself now, haters? By the way, Verge, God bless, had an agony of a first half. I wish we could all have agonies like Verge because he giveth and he taketh away.

45:10Got his back on an ear post flick on for McCour and the Liverpool had life because of Virg. And at halftime, Tottenham's Andy Robertson was thrown on. He's not going. Don't worry, Liverpool fans. That one seems to be over. To replace Kerkhez, it's a huge chance for the Liverpool away end. But Liverpool's play kind of remained attempting to assert levels. That's really what it was. The play, the build-up play was so ponderous, so slow. This is against a Bournemouth team who, remember, just won once in forever. I think they'd had three draws in their last five. They've not beaten Liverpool since 2023.

45:46I wrote in the Men and Blazers Discord, does anyone think Bournemouth can hold on to this game for reals? And within seconds, I crap you not, Salah rolled a free kick into the path of Dominic Sobersi, who's become almost, I mean, he's not a set-piece taker, he's almost a set-piece philosopher, the way he thinks about it. Brilliant free kick in the Champions League against Marseille, in which he noticed there was no draft excluder, rolled it maliciously under the wall, brilliantly. Here, he just kind of arced it around the whole damn thing, changing the angle. Man is almost like the Michel Foucault of free kick takers,

46:19Roger Bennett:the thinking. Yeah, I think there's a point at which the rest of the Liverpool players, rather than kind of thinking, you know, we don't want to let the fans down or we need to be in the Champions League or we've got, you know, ambitions and dreams and aspirations of our own. The rest of the Liverpool squad really needs to think we're letting Dominic Saboz lie down because he is the only player at Liverpool, and I hope I'm not saying this through a prism of red-tinted tears, Rog. He's the only player who's anywhere close to coming out of this campaign with a little bit of credit. He has been...

46:48Roger Bennett:I mean, if it wasn't for Sobber's lie, I have no idea how low down the table Liverpool would be. He's been their one shining light, and nobody else has produced anything at all to compare to it. Liverpool fans, read your phone call, he said people know what they do. frequently they know why they do what they do, but what they don't know is what what they do does. I don't know what it means either, but I do think the secret to fixing this team lies somewhere in there. This game, so open. Evan Nielsen bungled a chance at one end. Virts roll one narrowly wide at the other. Tired legs, frantic winds, long throw at the last half from Hill, a$1.4 million signing from Fleetwood Town, super cherries.

47:30but Liverpool just could not even do the basic act at the last which was repel it. Ryan Gravenberg scratched the ball off a post. Ian Endo suddenly on the deck. Alisson also floundering on that heavy, heavy turf. The ball fell to Amin Adli and he just smacked it home from a tight angle with the last meaningful kick of the ball. Yes, Virgil van Dijk left to berate the ref out of, I think, shock and shame at the last and oh my God, it's happening to us again confusion rule that's all I can think it was. Liverpool they were once the mentality monsters and by once I mean the first five games of this season they've now conceded a 90th minute winning goal three times in the Premier League this campaign most ever in a Premier League season.

48:15Where's it gone rule?

48:17Roger Bennett:Rog I can be very boring about this Rog so I will try and do it in quick hit format. Conceding late goals isn't the problem the problem is that in every single game they play Liverpool are vulnerable to conceding a late goal, that they are never in a position whereby it doesn't matter if the opposition score an injury time. It's either going to be a goal that costs you a win, costs you a draw, whatever it might be. They are never in a position where they are comfortable going into the 90th minute. That's an issue. Just as much of an issue, conceding goals is bad. Liverpool don't create anything anymore.

48:49Roger Bennett:They barely create chances. Both their goals against Bournemouth came from set pieces, which Arnest Lott has suggested is not ideal as the way to kind of approach a game that's not what this team is built to do and yet as you said they're ponderous they're slow they're achingly boring to watch they never look like they're creating anything um that's a real issue the real gut punch of this was that it came after what i think was liverpool's best performance of the season against marseille they were genuinely excellent against the marseille team that are not pushovers they're not they wouldn't win the Premier League but they're a competent football team who play you know in a similar style to say Brighton or ironically Bournemouth for the the contrast between those two performances is really really worrying and the consequences will be serious too because Liverpool have now slipped to sixth Chelsea and Manchester United are above them and have to be perfectly honest an easier run of games between now and the start of March I think it's perfectly possible that Liverpool don't win until the end of February, at which point the Champions League might be gone or the gap might be too big for them to make up.

49:54Roger Bennett:I don't think they should sack the manager, but I think it would be really odd if they got to the end of January with this squad, given the injuries, given the performances, given the complete lack of form and confidence. If you don't sign anybody, you're kind of writing the season off and that might involve writing the Champions League off as well. I do want to acknowledge quickly because I want to get to the issue that you've just kind hinted at. This is a massive win for Bournemouth, who even with the thinnest squad available, have such an admirable Andoni Arola kind of, he inspires it, but that fighting mentality, I mean, that is a currency which means that even with their form this season, he remains utterly coveted.

50:34That win kind of eases the darkest thoughts of relegation for them. Probably the best day, I don't like to be hyperbolic for Cherry since Coke incorporated them in 1985. Liverpool, though, remain winless in 2026. I take no pleasure in any of this. They're vaunted, 11-game Premier League unbeaten streak. It is, it's the imitation crab, if we're going to say, of unbeaten runs. I mean, it was almost quirky, but it is incredible to me, Raw, how quickly that unbeaten run just tilts totally into five games without a win, which is now our narrative. Just four points won from the last 15. And we have to say this, Xabi Alonso's shadow looms large with every single slot-filled point drop.

51:19That narrative, and it is narrative, or it was narrative, but of his availability, I mean, it will almost rumour itself into truth, rule.

51:28Roger Bennett:Well, yeah, look, so the people within the club are very kind of, are actually quite angry, I think, with a lot of the kind of falsehoods around. There's been stories on social media about, oh, there's a meeting to discuss Slott's future. not true Slott's been sacked not true I think there is still a lot of support internally for Arna Slott there is a sense that he's probably not the only one to blame for what's happened to this season I think Richard Hughes and Michael Edwards the sporting director and the director of football for Fenway Sports Group they have to take their fair share of blame as well the squad is not balanced they sold far too many players in the summer but at the same time Alonso being available does change the context it changes the context for the fans because there is someone out there who is not currently employed who they will be looking at and thinking he could do a job.

52:12Roger Bennett:And I think at some point it has to change the context for the people who decide on Arnazlott's future. And that is very sad because he won a title eight months ago and has had himself an extremely difficult kind of season in terms of the context in which that has happened. And we shouldn't forget that. And if Liverpool are giving him a little bit more time and space and a little bit more kind of leeway because of the Jota situation, I think that's understandable and admirable. It's not something the club could ever come out and say, which makes it very difficult for the fans to tolerate. But at the same time, and I say this as someone who, my genuine fan view would be, it is embarrassing to sack your title-winning manager in the middle of the season.

52:53Roger Bennett:It's embarrassing for that to happen to the club you support. They've won 5-18 in the Premier League. That's not Liverpool. Crazy man won a title. We've forgotten that already. He reminded us of it in a press conference in midweek when they said, do you feel you have to defend your 18 months here? And he said, defend it. I won the title in my first season. Man won the title. We were already forgotten. Unexpectedly, he won a title. Had the damp squib of a season unexpectedly. I mean, we're in this moment where it's like he came, he conquered, he flatlined. It's all so incongruent. And Xavi Alonso is out there so emotionally.

53:29It's like that scene in Wayne's World where they play Dreamweaver. Whenever you think about it, it's like, oh my God, it's just a hair. Give me someone even with hair. But I want to go to South London, talk about Crystal Palace, one, Chelsea, three. Fascinating tilt list between two really nuancedly, complexly poised teams. Chelsea trying to come together in almost surreal, alchemic ways under a novice leader, Liam Rossini. We'll talk about him in a minute. Palace going the opposite direction in a really traumatic way. Last season's joy turned to ashes in their mouth so quickly, almost watching them be stripped for parts.

54:08Dean Henderson, now the post-Gahey captain, their manager declaring after his post-match meltdown last week that everything was fine. He'd made up with the front office. He'd had a lunch with Steve Parrish, who runs a club. I don't regret it, said Glasner. Do I think it was the best way? No, I don't think so. but that's Oliver Glassner. Raw, in my experience, it's never good when you've got a manager speaking third person like the Queen, Hitler, or Ricky Henderson.

54:38Roger Bennett:Just three people, three. Yeah. Three people off the top of your head, all very similar. Those are the only three who are allowed to refer themselves. Ricky Henderson, young listeners, was a baseball player, fantastically charismatic, flamboyant guy who in the middle of interviews would just be like, would just shout out things like, Ricky don't like it when Ricky's limo is late. And I just loved it, like genuinely. Yeah, Ricky Henson, you use the third person. But Oliver Glassner using the third person. Roger, I'm not a great monarchist either, if I'm completely honest, but I would defend the late queen and say that she didn't refer to herself in the third person.

55:13Roger Bennett:She referred to herself in the first person plural. Fair. It was we rather than... She wasn't wandering around knowing the queen doesn't like it if her limo's late. she does that'd be amazing that'd be amazing so that at least so all right so Oliver Glass I'm getting out of this one if it's just a Hitler and Ricky Henderson I'm moving on um Chelsea uh that'd be amazing I think I'd like the monarchy if the Queen was like the Queen is pissed the Queen is pissed about Canada the Queen doesn't like what Australia's doing to the Commonwealth that man that's more entertaining I gotta be candid I can see Charles doing that to be fair yeah yeah Charles does not like it.

55:54Charles doesn't like it. Let's all do the third. Go on, let's all third person it up. Chelsea, four wins of 11 on the road. Resting Cole Palmer, which is interesting. And they did open comfortably on the ball, but Palace still had, for all they don't, they have Wharton, they have Munoz, they had Mateta, they crackle with undimmed menace. Mateta, rumoured to be wanting away, did blow another one-on-one to bump up his quite gaping XG deficit. Buyers beware. But then, 34th minute, Gahie's replacement. This was painful to watch. 19-year-old raw French prodigy, J.D. Camvao, really in agony, slapped a ill-advised back pass on the road to nowhere.

56:34Esteval ran onto it from behind. Mitchell in hot pursuit. It took longer for Esteval to get his shot off raw. I think that it taught Alex Honnold to climb that bloody building. But finally, he lashed past Dean Henderson. First goal since October for the kid. They'd only shot on target with Chelsea in that first half. But my God, painful self-immolation by Palace.

56:56Roger Bennett:Yeah, and it felt very much as though kind of like a leitmotif for Palace's season, didn't it? Just this sense that they'd been fine against Chelsea. They were holding them at arm's length. They looked like they were competing. And then they just kind of shoot themselves in the foot. And that's what you get, I guess, when you have to draft in a teenager to replace your captain. It's what you get when things are going against you when everything seems to be falling apart. Yeah, second half, Palace totally so open at the back. Esteval flicks Jao Pedro in on goal. He lashed through Henderson's legs.

57:25I think it's his fourth in five games. By the way, Esteval and Jao Pedro, you can make the case. We'll get to this. Both men reborn under Rosinha. Then poor young Canvo, handball to concede a penalty. Enzo lashto. Palace frustration summed up by Adam Wharton, who picks up two. Quite avoidable yellow cards inside five minutes and off. This should be, we talked about it last week, this should be the time of their lives for Palace fans, their dream season, first ever trophy, should be in the Europa League. But now, I think Rebecca Lowe, herself a Palace fan, called it the great unravelling. No wins in XI, fans in torment, contrast between the joy almost of the eight months ago and now makes it almost cruel roar.

58:10As a Palace fan, I've got to be honest, I said in Discord, I would take this, whatever punishment just for the joyous memories of last season. I asked that in Discord and a Palace fan, Chris E, wrote, the joy of last season was unfathomable. Being in the crowd at Wembley is something I'll remember forever, but we started to see how Europe stretches clubs into relegation battles. And if you drop into a very unforgiving championship, let's just say Luton to League Two probably could be any of us.

58:43Roger Bennett:that is absolutely right that there is a kind of natural corrective within football this isn't like this I don't want this to sound like conspiracy theory but it kind of favours the bigger clubs it is really hard to compete on two fronts it's really difficult when to get used to that kind of that rhythm of Thursday Sunday Thursday Sunday the extra six games more than that six games in the group stage of the conference league plus four eight in the in the knockouts that's a huge amount of workload and I think I said last week Rog that I'm not sure how well prepared Palace were for success that if you look at the reason they're in the conference league rather than the Europa League it was because they didn't submit the right paperwork to UEFA in time because they didn't think they were going to be in Europe which is a totally honest mistake to make and obviously it's stupid that UEFA don't have allowances for that but at the same time it does smack of a club that wasn't prepared necessarily to maximise its moment in the spotlight they didn't have a plan in the summer to strengthen again to make sure that the FA Cup was the start of something rather than the end of something but at the same time that is okay I'm with you I I would say that if you're a fan and you get this one wondrous season maybe a year of pain afterwards is enough to maybe that's okay maybe that's maybe it still ends happily does they win the conference league there is still stuff to salvage from it but it is undeniably really sad to watch it kind of start to crumble so quickly and also with such acrimony.

1:00:08Roger Bennett:I think that's the bit that maybe most fans would want to change. You don't have to build on it. It doesn't have to be the start of an empire, but you don't have to fall apart quite so bitterly, I think. Yeah, what is football for unless we eat our own? I have an enormous soft spot for Crystal Palace. I really do for South London, for that club, for that fan base, for that atmosphere. And God, God, God, God, to better days to come. For Chelsea, four wins in five for Rossini. Yes, one was in the FA Cup, another against Brentford, who were dominant but couldn't finish, probably should have won, another against big in Cyprus's pathos.

1:00:44But now this, and Rossini was asked post-game, if the Chelsea supporters decided to warm to him, I said, I hope so, I'm very happy here, but it's two-way, I have to earn that. And I hope over time they'll see that something good might happen here, which is very self-aware. Raw, Liam very senior, is leg-o'd, no glove clapped, kind of new age leader Chelsea into fifth place. They're ahead of Liverpool now. What if, despite his inexperience, he truly is like just an unexpected football managing natural prodigy, but like Mozart or like Billy Elliot?

1:01:23Roger Bennett:He's obviously a talented coach, there's no point taking that away from him. But I think it's about context and it might just be that he works in that context. And as much as I don't think any of the results he's had so far, or even the sum total of the results he's had so far, will be enough to kind of win that trust on a long-term basis if things go sour, I think this is probably the most impressive of his results that he's had. beating Palace, albeit a Palace that are not in a great moment, to use the preferred euphemism. It was a convincing away win. Chelsea did their job. He's getting the best out of certain players who had kind of lost their way a little bit under Maresca.

1:02:03Roger Bennett:He's doing all that he can do. And that ultimately, it would be really churlish not to give him credit for that. I still think the jury's out until he survives his first tabloid media pylon, which is inevitable in the wake of his first bad loss. One lovely note quickly, Chris Richards. The pride of Alabama made his 100th Crystal Palace appearance, got a consolation goal late on Roll Tide. Just an incredible journey from Birmingham, Alabama, to become an FA Cup winner, and one of, I think, our finest Americans abroad in this last cycle. Here's to 100 more, Chris. Back up north, Burnley 2, Tottenham Hotspur 2.

1:02:42This really was a true sad off, if we're being honest. Two teams who'd won a combined two of their last 26 Premier League games, which is astonishing. You've got teetering Thomas Frank, Klingion. That's the Champions League win against Dortmund. It almost felt like a stay of execution rule. You know, we were all like, can you fire him after that? Well, you know, you also like, well, Spurs fight and you have to ruin the Europa League. So, yeah. In the other corner, you've got the hapless Clarets, won zero games in 13, deep in the moon door of relegation. You can almost smell the desperation. Spurs open the scoring 38th minute, Mickey Van Der Ven.

1:03:20Keep Spurs fans chanting, we are staying up, we are staying up. Gallo Schumer, stroke of halftime, former Spurs star Kyle Walker in his revenge game, slung in a beautiful ball. that Axel Twanzaby snuck between all three Spurs centre-backs and steered home. 1-1. Second half, scrappy AF. 76-minute. Beautiful, beautiful football suddenly. Jadon Anthony picked the ball up. Top of the Spurs box. Made Mickey Van Der Ven look like a short-circuiting robot. Lyle Foster finally converted. Cue Burnley rapture. The singing was amazing. Burnley fans started to sing, how crap must you be? We're winning at home.

1:04:01to which the Spurs travelling fans sang, you're nothing special, we lose every week. This really happened, Ruhr. I mean, we know though, Burnley can't have nice things. I do watch them a lot because of JJ, JJ Watt, and they do fight even in defeat. But 90th minute, Sun appearing to set on the Thomas Franck era. Who else? Spurs captain, defender, goal scorer extraordinaire, Kuti Romero, diving bullet header, made it 2-2, saving a point of the death. Spurs centre-backs, I think they're their second top scorers, that's not great I think Everton are going to probably sign one to play as a centre-forward tandem but Roar, does it matter pulling back that goal from a Thomas Frank future perspective there can't be a reprieve for much longer at this point, lovely man as he is can there be?

1:04:47Roger Bennett:Yeah, short term it does matter because I think if they lose that game then it becomes kind of irresistible the urge to make a change, but medium long term no not really because you can't you can't be basing your kind of managerial policy the most important piece of recruitment of like HR that you can do as a football club on whether you store a 90th minute equaliser at Burnley that is not a sensible approach so I think you know we might look back on that Romero equaliser and say that's the point at which Frank saved his job and then he won four games in a row and he found a little bit of kind of solidity but I think the likelihood is he is just as Rossini as one game one defeat away from the media and possibly some of the Chelsea fans deciding he's not up to it.

1:05:29Roger Bennett:Frank is one defeat away from being dismissed and it just depends when that defeat comes. God, it is so painful watching him. I feel for him. He's such a thoughtful man watching him walk up to the Spurs fans at the end and they're sacked in the morning. His own fans singing the whole second half, Thomas Frank, your football is. I'm paraphrasing crap. The Spurs fans are done. Once you've lost the fans in football there is a real thing it makes the culture and tenable toxic um you know spurs travel uh to eintracht frankfurt this week i think they probably for frank stallone than thomas frank most of the fans that you speak to but this run raw manchester city then united at old trafford newcastle at home then good god arsenal i mean it feels very hello darkness my old friend Yeah and I wonder whether there's a world in which why put a new manager through that that might be part of the thinking if Thomas Frank can come out of that with three points, couple of draws maybe a sneaker win somewhere then maybe that's enough and it's after that Arsenal game that you maybe have to make the change Yeah they should just put Frank Stallone in for lols by the way talk about three points, they got three points from Brentford, Sunderland, Bournemouth, West Ham and now Burnley, I mean that's kind of if anything tells you where we are and to try and understand how we got here.

1:06:50That is the human pain. Talking about pain, Newcastle, nil. Aston Villa, two. A clash between two modern period aspirational teams looking to cement their status as European regulars, both coming off European play, but no evidence of any continental lactic acid here. Both teams came in hot. It was like a goalkeeper save-off between Emi Martinez and Nick Pope in the opening exchanges, But 19th minute, kleidoscopic interchange between Unai Emery's son, Uri Tillman Emery and Morgan Rodgers and Emi Buendia. And Buendia looked up and just uncorked an absolute poem into Nick Pope's corner. 1-0 Villa.

1:07:33This Villa team, we talked about it, they score so many XG defying bangers. Producer J.D. have said that the goal of the month competition at Villa almost is a trophy in its own right. I don't know, however, to beat them last week watching this game. But the difference between these two teams was really palpable. And it was creativity. Aston Villa had poetry and fluidity in Rodgers, Buendia. Newcastle, for all of their running and their intent and house planning and expected goal dominance in this game, and their acquisition of players like Wieser, Anthony Alanga last summer, they seem oddly bereft, lacking.

1:08:11Roger Bennett:Yeah, without Bruno de Mares, I think Newcastle do lose a considerable amount. They are athletic, they're physical, they're quite dominant when they're on form, but they maybe lack that little bit of subtlety, that little kind of ability to pick their way through. It always feels a bit like Newcastle are a very effective battering ram, but if you withstand that, they can't open the door with a credit card. Although, obviously, that is what most teams in the Premier League are trying to do, is they're trying to open a door with a credit card. That is the perfect metaphor for everything. That's why we watch.

1:08:41Roger Bennett:whereas Villa do have this this fascinating tendency to score goals they shouldn't really be scoring the Buendia finish is extraordinary like the way it curled the way it curled and dipped and curved I'm not sure I've seen many goals like that it was so deliberate the placement was so kind of precise it was an absolutely incredible strike and they score goals like that really frequently and the thing, look, people who know more about data than I do will tell me if this is right or not but I think if you're outperforming your XG consistently then you're probably doing something that the XG isn't accounting for and it may well just be that Villa have several players who were really unusually good at shooting from range.

1:09:20Villa killed off the game, 88th minute. Oli Watkins slammed home back post-head. A big goal for him for Tammy Abraham. Incoming, a 2-0 win. First victory at St. James Park since 2005 for the Villa. They are now in third place, level on points with Manchester City. four behind league leaders, Arsenal. Seems like week on, week off, Raw, we announce Villa and then denounce them as title challengers. Can we muster something definitive together?

1:09:51Roger Bennett:Yeah, I think they're in it. I don't think there's any reason to discount them, especially now that Arsenal seem to be wobbling slightly. I still think Arsenal will win the lead, but I don't see Villa going anywhere particularly. I'm not sure that they might... I suppose later on in the season, the Europa League might start to exert itself. Maybe the results dip a little bit around April, May, but they're an extremely good side. They seem built to last. The work Emery's done is extraordinary and they are as much contenders for the title as Manchester City in my eyes. Yeah, upcoming Premier League fixtures, very, very giving.

1:10:26Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, all the bees, Leeds and Wolves in the next five. All I'll say now is up the villa. In other games, Fulham 2, Brighton won. Of course, Harry Wilson scored the winner in the 92nd minute. The Welsh Warrior smashed a free kick, swung in from distance, bought for Bruggan, palmed it into the net. Ultimately, this one, Fulham took their chances. And once again, Brighton failed to do that. This stat sounds made up, but it is true. Harry Wilson's eight league goals this season have come with chances worth a cumulative 0.84 XG raw, which is just unbelievable. Harry Wilson, confidence, clinicality, belief Billy T tweeted If you watch Harry Wilson's goal catalogue this season you probably think he's the best player in the world

1:11:17Roger Bennett:And he's an amazing story Harry Wilson the fact that he came through so young at Liverpool and never quite worked out for him I think it's unfair to say he didn't make the grade but it never quite worked out for him and he didn't lose his way but he seemed to be one of those players who might drift into a very happy obscurity kind of a premierly squad filler, effectively. But he's emerged a little, you know, maybe not quite in the autumn of his career, but in his late 20s as Fulham's absolutely key player, this reliable deliverer of moments of genuine wonder. His contract's up in the summer. I'm sure Fulham will try and offer him, you know, generous terms to stay.

1:11:55Roger Bennett:But there'll be a lot of teams looking at Harry Wilson and thinking we would really like to have him in our squad. But, you know, he's from North Wales, Rog. He'd be a great signing for an upwardly mobile club in that area should they make the Premier League. He is captain of Wales. You just wonder whether he might find his way to Rexham. I thought you were talking about Everton. I'm nodding along. I'm like, yeah, maybe. You did me there. You totally did me. Particularly in a league in which strikers are worth their weight in crypto, whatever that weighs. It's fascinating to watch his contract negotiations go on raw.

1:12:28and I'm old enough to remember when Fulham were flatlining near the bottom of the table. I think that was that in November. Then I was just three points off the Champions League places. To me, they're the perfect symbol of this utter chaos season. Brentford nil, Nottingham Forest too. Who saw this coming? Much needed win for Sean Dyche after Forest lost midweek to Braga. Without facing, this is so Forest, without facing a shot on target, they missed the penalty too, scored an own goal, got a red card, totally soiled themselves. A lot of media talk about how the honeymoon's over for Sean Dyche and the Forest fans, which made me think, well, a horrible thought.

1:13:05Can you imagine waking up in bed, Roar, and you look over in the morning and Sean Dyche is grinning back at you from the other side of a post-coital pillow smoking a Malba Red and just grinning at you?

1:13:15Roger Bennett:Would that be better or worse than a load of Nottingham Forest fans? I think they both sound horrendous. How did you get here, Sean? I don't know. Was it good for you? I'm sure he's a very tender lover. I think so. I think he's very generous. A very generous and giving lover. Let's move on, Roald. The first goal in this one. Stunning work by Igor Jesu. Stunning chess work. Eight away goals from this season. Only Erling Haaland has netted more on the road. Yeah, and Deitch has got the best out of him. I think that's absolutely clear. He was a slightly strange signing initially. Nuno and Ange didn't seem to fancy him at all.

1:13:52Roger Bennett:But he's obviously tipped the Deitch box. and he's delivered, to be honest. And you say no one saw this coming. I think Brentford and Fulham might be two sides of the same soul, almost. That when Brentford are up, Fulham are down. And when Fulham are up, Brentford are down. Brentford had this golden run over Christmas and New Year. And they have now lost, I think, lost two in two. They're obviously dipping slightly. This is the nature of the Premier League. This season particularly. Teams go up for a little while and they come down for a little while, back up. Forrest a slightly mystifying one, because Forrest are good, and yet don't seem to be able to get out of 17th.

1:14:31Roger Bennett:I can't stop thinking about post-cointal Sean Dyche. I'm trying not to. To West Ham 3, Sunderland 1. How did it happen? Well, Sunderland were without the injured Granit Jack out with Ankle Knack. Shell-shocked here. Jared Bowen creating the first for Red Hot Somerville. Bowen penalty, then a stunning kiss on the cheek of a goal to top it all off. on the stroke of half-time, switched a play to Somerville, laid it back to Castellanos, his shot blocked, but Mateus Fernandes, if you've not seen this goal, find it, just picked it up from way downtown and just slapped it deliciously, maliciously, almost derisively into the corner.

1:15:07I was honestly surprised and relieved in this moment that West Ham front office had enough bubbles loaded

1:15:12Roger Bennett:in that bubble machine, Will. Yeah, it was my daughter's birthday on Saturday, Rog, so I wasn't paying attention a huge amount to the lunchtime kick-off because we had various celebrations. You had bubble machines of your own. We had loads of bubble machines. Now we went to the National Children's Museum, Eureka. It was very good. She had a lovely time. But I didn't expect, as I sat in the space and sound exhibition, to check my phone surreptitiously and see West Ham having stored three goals. I assumed that something had gone badly wrong with my phone. But at the same time, if it is true that West Ham stored three goals in the first half, then that is a remarkable kind of turnaround for a club that did look like they had lost all faith in everyone involved in the entire process because two or three weeks ago West Ham looked done.

1:15:57Roger Bennett:They didn't look like a team that could hope to score three goals in a single half of football. Yeah, I mean it is fascinating in a cost-cutting world that the front office of West Ham were like, yeah, put in four loads of bubbles one for the kick-off. Genuinely, you'd think they'd be like yeah, just put the kick-off and maybe one in case we get an own goal. So I was almost bloody relieved. And it was joyous. Sunderland tries to get back into the game. But honestly, the most fight they showed was when Granit Xhaka got himself involved in some, let's say, heated discussion with West Ham fans behind him.

1:16:28He was hugely missed. That's what I can say for Sunderland. There was a great comment from J-Dubs in the Discord who said, Got on to the point where I can't remember who Nuno manages, whether he's meant to be a good manager or a bad manager. That, Rod, that kind of sums up modern management summed up right there, right? Exactly, yeah.

1:16:45Roger Bennett:The lines are incredibly fine. That's three straight wins, though, from the Zen Master who was fired by Nottingham Forest and now is five points back from the very same Nottingham Forest, hoping to doom them into relegation with the vengeance of Liam Neeson in taking one, two and three. One of the joys of the weekend, Everton don't play till this afternoon when they face Leeds in a game known as the Dominic-Calvert-Lewin revenge game. DCL hat-trick loading raw. This is a tough moment for Everton this week. News that Jack Grealish could miss, quote, months with a suspected stress fracture in his foot.

1:17:22The 30-year-old is on loan for Manchester City with an option to buy. You know, this does muddle his future. I adore Jack, St. Jack, and his beautiful embrace of our club. And honestly, the mirth, the joy, just the wonder that he's brought to our team. but we also know injuries are psychologically long-term injuries especially brutal um I part of me is very worried he's going to come back like you know like Elvis Vegas era Elvis what do you do if you're the Everton front office it I suppose you need to establish the severity

1:17:57Roger Bennett:of the injury how long it's likely to rule him out and you know I would imagine from a stress factor there's no reason he wouldn't come back next season with you know there wouldn't be any lingering after effects particularly Jack Grealish you know has a duty to himself as well to get the best out of his career and that means rehabbing as quickly as he can I think he's probably done enough in his time at Everton to suggest to the front office that he's worth having at the club that he's a kind of talisman that Everton can build around City I don't see a I don't see a way back for him at Manchester City I don't think that's that's possible how would you replace him that's the other question what do you do if you say all right we're not going to go for Jack Grealish that you know we're just going to say that we can't we can't get close to his wages you know how much do you have to pay to get someone who can have a similar impact even if it's not necessarily in terms of goals and assists even if it's just in terms of giving fans a reason to go does that's worth something I mean it is I just say godspeed Jack come back to us come back to us healthy and please god deliver the creative genius joker in the pat levity that's kind of what you're talking about Raw, that is what makes our hearts sore.

1:19:05But let's end with a letter from a GFOP on Mailbag, I have to say, is overflurf. Maybe it was the snow but meninblazers at gmail.com. You guys have written so many beautiful letters. We are so grateful. I do try and answer each and every one. But Raw, do the honours.

1:19:21Roger Bennett:Hi, Rog and Rory. Watching Arsenal take down into midweek, I was so happy for Vitor Jokeres for finally getting his big boy goal. The joy and mostly relief on his face was palpable. Then he did his interlocked fingers over face Bain celebration. It got me wondering, when did the personalised celebration become a thing in world football? There's Jürgen Klinsmann's famous dive, a clever and hilarious message to his haters, but he didn't keep it up for every goal. There are non-celebrations, thumbs in mouth, cupped ears, fingers to lips, and countless others which hold significance in a unique moment.

1:19:54Roger Bennett:But in recent years, players seem to feel they need a signature celebration, many of which feel counter to what the human body naturally wants to do in moments of joy, such as Jocheres or cold Parma. The only one that comes to mind that feels natural is Cristiano's Siu, but to do the same celebration for every goal feels kind of inauthentic and, dare I say it, corny. Maybe I've got it wrong and it's always been a thing. What do you think? Are you pro? Against? Neutral? Do you have a favourite celebration yourself? I think mine has to be Lola Bonta's hilarious fake hamstring pull twerk celly. That's a lot of words.

1:20:25Roger Bennett:or that Icelandic team Stjarnan that had elaborately choreographed skits. Thank you for all you do. Best, Heather from Bodo Glimt, north of the Arctic Circle. Oops, I'm in Brooklyn, New York. Probably quite similar at the moment, to be fair. Yeah, I mean, God bless it. I wish I was in the Arctic Circle. It's probably less now than where we are right now. Right, I mean, there's a letter that says I'm old enough to remember like the olden days when I was a kid, like 70s, 80s. This was before social media, you know, where English football was played on like muddy fields by men, balding men mostly, like would score from very close range and trot back to the centre circle.

1:21:02And when they did celebrate, I'm not making this up, they essentially playing football just to get a pie and a pie and a cigarette at half time. They'd kiss each other full on the mouth. That was like the manly way that they'd celebrate goals. That was just what you did. But you're a man of history, Rule. So social media has definitely warped, encouraged. Christopher and Kunku, we now know, is just more of the balloon celebration than the highlight goal reel in modern times. That's kind of where we are footballing.

1:21:34Roger Bennett:Where's it come from? So I think it's probably an early 90s thing. That's as far back as I can go. Roger Miller. Yes! The World Cup 1990, which I'm sure features in your book, Rog. Trademark. I've heard it's very good and pre-orders make a real difference where do you hear that? I can't remember someone keeps saying it I hear it in my dreams, Rog that's where I heard about it Roger Miller's dancing by the corner flag that was the first one I really remember Gabriel Batistuta, the kind of legendary Fiorentina and Argentina striker had a machine gun one that would have been sort of 94-95 onwards Vincenzo Montella in Serie A the Roma striker was il aeroplanino, James Horncastle will tell me I've pronounced that wrong, does he used to pretend to be a little aeroplane, like he was feeding a child no after every goal so I think yeah it's around the mid 90s when it became a thing and at the same time you've got teams doing choreographed celebrations as well at roughly the same time but then I think it did fall out of fashion for a while and I'm guessing that Ronaldo brought it back, but you have to remember that with the CU, Ronaldo didn't do that originally.

1:22:49Roger Bennett:It took a while before he made that his thing. I don't think he was doing that at Manchester United. If you're, if I'm wrong, and people can find video evidence that I'm wrong, that's fine. I'd be interested to know. But I think it's a kind of mid-2010s thing that Ronaldo has the CU and then lots of players decide, I want to have my own celebration too. I mean, it was. You nailed it for me, because English football really was, when we grew up, it was like mud fighting, hooligan culture. There was not, you had to wait hours, you know, often the next day to watch the games as highlights. So it wasn't like this instant, oh my god, he scored.

1:23:21Oh my god, he did what? Oh my god, that made him. Signature different. Added transfer fee, you know. So it was just genuinely, it was just score, kiss on the mouth, jog back. Full tone, and off we go.

1:23:35Roger Bennett:The characteristic individual celebration that applied in English football was Alan Shearer's. Alan Shearer did have a celebration he did every time and he raised one hand in the air and ran around that was it by the way before him it was mickey shannon uh who played for southampton and he'd like windmill his arm and i remember people being like that's a disgrace that's that he's bringing the game into disrepute yes i mean it was like would you i don't think so um i mean it was world cups though just the epic technical the crackling global spotlight live football too remember we didn't watch a lot of live football World Cups did change everything.

1:24:11That's where we saw the passion, the joy, the fun. You mentioned the baby celebration. You think World Cup 94, Brazil. But before even that, and I do, I mean, you joke, but a lot of, I realize my World Cup memories, and I do write about them in We Are the World Cup, are of emphatic goals and the crackling celebration that reinforced them. For me, it was Roger Miller. For those who didn't watch World Cup 1990, to you who are listening. He's a Cameroonian, 38 years old, plucked from obscurity, from Union Island, playing Argentina in the first game. They shot Cameroon, shock him. And Roger Mayer just became like this sensation by substituting on because he was too old to play the full game and he just kind of trot on, humiliate the goalkeeper and then branded.

1:25:00He literally branded every goal rule with, I mean, he'd first run along the sideline and then dry hump the corner flag good move and then just gyrate with like it was like watching barney the dinosaur that kind of joy oh that's harsh no that was the ultimate compliment it was the ultimate no but it was gorgeous because it shattered every cliche that had been attributed to african football in the process that was its wonder i would i would say with some

1:25:26Roger Bennett:confidence that in 1990 nobody had ever danced on a football pitch in england ever yeah i think that was a thing. It didn't occur to me at the time. How could football be fun? That's what we didn't know it could be. It was militaristic and it was kind of combative and it was about aggression. It wasn't about joy, football in the 80s. And I think, I was eight in 1990, so this has never occurred to me before. I am thinking live, Rog, I think that must be the first time a lot of English people saw anyone dance on a football pitch. Smile. Possibly smile, to be honest, yeah. I know. I mean, this is life, man.

1:26:01By the way, one that was striking to me that I do write about in depth in the book, mostly because it was so premeditated. And I am going to ask you, Rural, what your sally would be. World Cup 2002, the US played Korea. There was a Korean goal late to tie the game by a player, I think Ahn Young-wan was his name, headed home some free kick. And he celebrated, this is incredible to me, immediately celebrated with a speed skate mine. In that moment, the Winter Olympics had just been in Salt Lake City. A Korean short track speed skater, Kim Dong-sung, had been disqualified, I think, from the gold medal, which led Apollo Ono to win gold instead.

1:26:37It was very controversial. And I was just like, oh, my God, the depth of geopolitical layers that this man had gone through to think what he would do in the remote chance that he'd score a goal with seconds ticking away. He'd raise that kind of old anger and misdemeanor. That's just levels, the levels of thinking, which means what would you do, Rul?

1:26:58Roger Bennett:I think I'd do that. I think I'd keep up. if I was a sort of$15 season striker, I would like to keep up a running commentary, slightly satirical on current events through the medium of my celebrations. So each week I would pick a news event and I would kind of base a celebration on it. God, that is a bit dark and a bit deep. I'd probably go the opposite. I'd try and reinforce that football is the ultimate diversion. If I scored, you know how like Jesus wore a t-shirt premeditated under it? I'd have some pride. I would just stop, run over to the corner flag and pull out just like a... I would have swallowed flags, rule, and just pull them out of my mouth in knotted handkerchiefs in a stream.

1:27:41People like magic, Rog.

1:27:42Roger Bennett:Yeah. But then would they not also like me and three of my teammates acting out Brooklyn Beckham's wedding dance? I think they would. My God, but wouldn't they prefer me just bending over and farting ping pong balls out of my anus into the travelling fan base to emphasise the delirium? I think they would. Tell us in the comments what you would do. By the way, Klinsmann's dive was one of the most self-aware. Jürgen Klinsmann came to Tottenham in 1994, right? The Guardian wrote a piece saying, why I hate Jürgen Klinsmann. He proceeded to blast, was it, 30 goals in 50 games that season. The Guardian ended up writing, the same journalist wrote, why I love Jürgen.

1:28:20He won us over. And one of the reasons he won us over, on his debut, scored a goal in a Tottenham 4-3 win and just flung himself to the floor as it did a running dive, flung himself to like self-aware, mock those who mocked him for diving in his play acting. And it just triggered, just changed us to the other thing. It was magnificent.

1:28:41Roger Bennett:It was, and it was a really sort of actively funny self-reference. But I've always been mystified by that. And it's a subject that I find genuinely fascinating, Rog. Why did people hate Jürgen Klinsmann so much? Because we feared Germans. They beat us. They were inevitable. Rudy Voller and Jurgen Klins, they were pragmatic. They won. We feared them. They did everything we hated. And then he came over here. There weren't many Germans in there. He came over here. They were humorless. They were awful. And he proceeded to show us he was everything. But the hostility that he got, this is very inside baseball, but the hostility he got was weird because he wasn't, like you say, we didn't watch a lot of football.

1:29:21Roger Bennett:There wasn't football from Italy or Germany on TV in England. I don't remember Klinsmann doing anything in the 1990 World Cup semifinal when Germany beat England that warranted the amount of hatred he got. But when he arrived, he was genuinely hated in a way that makes very little sense other than he's a German. By the way, I think you've just explained it. That might be enough, yeah. But in one celebration, he won the entire country's hearts and is now quite popular in England. Ultimately, Ru, we feared what we didn't know. and God bless it was just an incredible also showing that a German could be funny many Germans I know are unbelievably funny shattered so many stereotypes instantly in that second too thank you for your letter Heather as you can see it triggered a lot of memories which ultimately maybe are we for them or against them we're for them because it is for Germans yeah for the Germans all of it for everything especially your letters keep writing to us here at menandblazers at gmail.com we try and answer them all that's it for today I'm headed up to Boston if the snow lets up Bay Area by the way thank you for selling out our live show February 4th all I can tell you is when you find out who's coming on stage with us those of you who will be with us I just can't wait to be with you and we'll raise a beer with you then but Roar above all thanks to you you beautiful human being it's been a pleasure Rog this is Rog saying let's not take a second of watching football together for granted and courage Thank you.