Disconnect to Reconnect: Lessons from Marlow Campbell

0:00Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And we're doing something first and official for the first time ever. We're on site, Montego Bay. I'm here with my best friend, Mr. Marlo Campbell. We're about to get some raw exclusive stuff. Marlo Campbell. You're listening to Mick Unplugged, hosted by the one and only Mick Hunt. This is where purpose meets power and stories spark transformation. Mick takes you beyond the motivation and into meaning, helping you discover your because and becoming unstoppable. I'm Rudy Rush, and trust me, you're in the right place. Let's get unplugged.

0:41Welcome to us. Mick, I just want to say thank you for having me on. And so, so proud of everything that you're doing. And, you know, just glad to be here in beautiful Montego Bay. It's awesome, man. Like, we've been here for a few days together. Little couples retreat. Love the island. You know, you've been here, obviously, before. This is my third time back to the same resort here at Secret. So shout out to Secrets. But, man, like, you're the first person that I looked up to when it came to just disconnect. Right? Like, you have so much going on, right? With soccer. We're going to get into that.

1:20With the kids. You're a family man. And you always tell me, mate, I got to have a little bit of time to just disconnect in the road, man. Like, when did that become a thing for you? And why is that important for people to just be able to disconnect everyone else? Well, I think that disconnecting is a way for you to reflect and truly analyze what's going on in order to make improvement in your world, in your life with the with personally, professionally, with your family, with your friends. taking time to really appreciate also all the wonderful things that go on, even when things are bad. You know, taking this time away is good just to spend time with with friends and family and and just know, you know, just figure out what's going on, what the next moves are.

2:11OK. Yeah. And you're a CEO, right? Like you own multiple businesses. And I think a lot of times as leaders and CEOs, we have this misconception that we've always got to be on. And that there's this no days off brutality. And I actually believe in no days off. I also believe in taking moments so that you can be there for the people that matter the most, whether it's your team, whether it's your family or whatever it is. And so for the business leader, it never takes the time to recharge. What's your message for that? That's it. You always got to remember where you started from. And the best way to do that is to take that step back.

2:48And when you reflect upon where you started, where you are now, where you're going, okay, if you can't slow down just a little bit, then that's when you get yourself in trouble, okay? you start losing in touch with reality um and as we said you know when you you have your great team at work and you have your your people that you you're with all the time but um helps you to understand reflect go back to really just figuring out who you are you know you know when we it's interesting we we had a great uh dinner with a couple other couples uh in february and we started talking about all the different things that we've done in our lifetime you know professionally okay just as from a from an income standpoint and every one of us had a story where we were here and then we did this and we did this and we did that okay um but that's the story of life.

3:50I mean, you're building on your experiences. Okay. And so taking time away is a way to not take notes, but just mentally take notes and just say, okay, oh, this is, this is where I've been. This is where I'm going. This was a good experience. How can I duplicate that? This was a bad experience. What have I learned from that so that we can make it even better experience next time? You know? Yeah. And for the person that's listening, maybe you're not a business on right having a disconnect is still important so you know like for me i'll spend time on a sunday morning i'll spend a couple hours go sit over with the backboard and just have some meat right so you don't have to go on vacations to disconnect like that shouldn't be the only reason or the only way that you disconnect what are some ways that you disconnect when it's not a vacation or whatever well i'm a professional napper man i can you know i could nap anytime and it's my it's my time you know three o 'clock on a saturday sunday i'm gonna relax i mean i'm just gonna take that time to myself and and my family knows that hey this is this is when i gotta i gotta just gotta sit back and absorb okay and recharge um But similar to you, just find a little quiet place.

5:08Sometimes I get accused of being quiet. But I'm still on, but I'm just processing. I'm letting that computer regenerate. You know what I mean? You've got to get the reboot, the refresh. And just whether that's sitting at home, whether that's going and hitting some golf balls, sometimes just just even just being with family yeah is a good way of doing it you know what i mean um so um there's so many ways to do it but um just just getting out of uh getting your mind away from the business side and just that we keep using that word reflection but it's it's really important that um that you you take time to do that yeah i tell people all the time that like on your computer you got to clear cash and get it right like that's your computer resetting yeah you got to restart your phones don't care if you're apple android or whatever like every once in a while it's not operating right so you have to restart it um your phones and in all these technology platforms send you updates that you always have to do i think for your mind and body you have to do the same feeling you got to be able to take that time and get that recharge that update where that restart yeah yeah so crypt import and i learned a lot of that like i we met five years ago now yeah and like we literally instantly became best friends which is crazy because as you get to know marlo campbell everyone is his best like and i mean that in a very good way right yeah you never met a stranger yeah i love people you always have that thing uh you know it used to be what six degrees of kevin bacon right like i call it now you're two degrees for marlo campbell when did that become a thing for you like networking introducing yourself picking people up, I mean, did that become a thing for you?

6:55I guess it probably started as a youth with my background and where I grew up and in the mean streets of Crabtree, I guess you will, you know, in Raleigh. But no, it's interesting for me, when we moved, we were in one part of Raleigh, we moved to a whole nother part of Raleigh. We were one of, we thought we were the only ones, but we were one of only two black families in an all-white neighbor, okay? And it's interesting as a six-year-old kid starting to build relationships with people that don't really know you back in the 70s, okay? That was different, okay? But then I got introduced to this wonderful worldwide game of soccer, okay?

7:42And so when I got introduced to soccer, I never would have done it unless we had moved to this part of town. And I played a lot of sports growing up. I was fortunate. I was pretty athletic. But I always, every time we had to make a choice of what sport I was going to continue to progress with, it kept going back to soccer. Well, the thing about soccer, soccer is a worldwide sport. I mean, everybody plays, okay? And so you're always building relationships with people that are different. I mean, the game is the same. There's two goals, there's a ball, okay? You try to score. but you build up the teamwork you build up the camaraderie you build up the support system you build up um adversity you have some wins you have some losses you know so i i i think that's when it all started okay you go on to college and you play professionally and and you do things everything that i do now is a byproduct of when i got started when i was younger okay never met a stranger don't judge you know people are going to be people people are going to be different okay um i always seek to understand where they're coming from okay even if i disagree that's that's their that's their position i can't get upset with them for their position what i can do is understand it and maybe it either strengthens my position that i have or i'm helping them to understand hey you know what have you looked at it this way and helping them to understand as well you know so um i think that's one reason why i i go out people see me i meet people have no problem um just meeting people and just just move playing on with it you know it's it's uh i think it makes it special absolutely absolutely yeah so let's go into soccer for those that i know we've got your we've got your shirt censored and thank you and for those that are watching we are in jamaica it might be five o 'clock it might be 10 o 'clock it's five o 'clock somewhere cheers my brother yes sir so soccer you went to this little school oh for those you know you see his shirt is blurred because i'm allergic to to that but you went to nc state man so like one why nc state or no let's let's go back a little bit further okay marlo campbell the soccer star high school what was recruiting like what was that what were those moments uh back then soccer was still kind of growing okay but it was one of those things um whereas um again i was fortunate i was with the all the old what's called olympic development program so i'm traveling all over the country representing north carolina region three um u.s uh national team camp u6 kings in colorado the springs and again just to build again meeting people from different areas developing those relationships yeah so then when you get into the recruiting process you know for me my father worked at nc state i grew up always wanting to play for nc state but i also entertained uh duke and that other light lighter blue school um down the road from them as well i'm not allowed to say that.

11:00The universe, my actual champions, UFC. Okay, I'm not allowed to actually say those words, but, you know, so, and a few other schools here in North Carolina. But I remember there was a game in high school, and I had really great teammates at Athens Drive High School. But I remember a game where two of my best friends, Roy and Eric Lasseter, had just been gotten red cards in the game before. So I was solo, quote unquote solo. Obviously I had some great teammates, but I wasn't playing with my boys. Okay. That we, that we always used to do our thing with the next game. And I didn't know that coach Tarantini was in the stands.

11:44Okay. And I went off. I went off. I mean, I mean, I just, because it was out of support for my brothers, Roy and Eric, it was support for my, my, my teammates that were just to this day, they're just great, great, great people. We ended up winning the state championship that year. Okay, the first one for Athens Drive. But I just remember that game, and I remember just going off. And I was like, okay. And we won. I think we were playing against Broughton. They were number one in the state. So we won the game. And I get home that night, and I get the phone call. Hey, it's George Tarantini. How do you say this?

12:22Speak tomorrow. I was like, okay, this is he. And he said, I want to offer you full scholarship, according to NC State. And I was speechless. And I said, can I call you back? There you go. There you go. I got the Tar Heels on the other side. I hung up the phone, went upstairs, told my mom and dad, I just got a call from George Tarantino, NC State. and they said uh what'd you tell him i said i gotta call him back like man you better get down there right you know so it was it was it was just unique he was and it was special because coach we all call him coach he was originally from argentina his brother was the best defender in the world for argentina and the 78 world cup you know this is powerful intimidating figure that was on the phone with me.

13:19And I'm a 17-year-old boy still, right? But he has this way of just making you feel good. Okay, of course, because when they're recruiting you, they love you. Okay, and then as soon as you get on campus, you're like, wait, I thought you liked me, coach. What's up? Okay. So, but he was like, yeah, I want you to be the first player from North Carolina to offer a full scholarship to. And I was like, okay, I'll take that. Let's go. So I did it. I didn't know that, sir. So you were the first North Carolina homegrown athlete that he offered a scholarship. Yeah. Full scholarship. Yep. That's why. Yeah.

13:56So how does that make you feel to like say that out loud? No, man. I mean, he is always been special. And, you know, that's that's that's who coach is. You know, he was. And I learned a lot. You talk about just looking after people. Coach always wanted to look after the little guy. He always wanted to give people an opportunity. Okay? And even in today's times, whether it's through any of my businesses or just in coaching, I've loved coaching. And people always ask, well, I don't coach very much anymore. They say, do you miss the coaching? Do they think the wins and losses? Like, no, no, no, no.

14:37I miss it so much. But I miss the relationship. show that's what you build with with your with your players you build with your team um and and i'm coaching youth and so now these quote-unquote kids are now 40 36 30 years old rocking it just repeating the cycle and every time i run into them it's just it's just such a special moment because i remember when you were seven i remember when you were 17 i remember when you were this i remember when we lost that we were learning i remember when you were going through this with your with your family i mean these are that's the relationship that you that you build and then so i learned a lot from from tarantini with respect to no matter how he how he yelled at you or got on you he loved you okay and he just wanted you to be better you know i think i think personally I think he was always upset with me because I never came on my recruiting trip.

15:36Really? Yeah.

15:41So I was set to come on the – I had already – I already did it. I already said I'm coming, coach. He goes, all right, I want you to come into this recruiting trip. I said, all right, I'm going to come in. And then I got a call from a girl who was a friend, not my girlfriend, who says, Marlo, you'll never guess who I'm babysitting for. she said I said she was Prince's nephews like the artist Prince what? the artist yes the artist for one year Tyka Nelson lived in Raleigh's Mount Gerolim interesting and she lived in the same neighborhood as my friend and she literally she goes next time I babysit I'll have you come over so I went over to the house sure enough president and sir those were the two nephews okay alright met the boys They were cool as can be.

16:30And and then about three weeks later, Steph called and said, hey, Prince's Alphabet Street, Love Sexy Tours coming to Greensboro. And Taika says, I can bring a friend. Do you want to come? And it happened to be the weekend of my recruiting joke. So here I am. I got to call Tarantini. And I'm like, coach, yo, I'm not coming. I'm not coming on my record. I know you're setting me up for life, but, yo, I'm going to diss you. Thinking about a hindsight as a coach, I'm like, man, I don't know how I would have accepted that. Right. But he probably hung up the phone like, what's up with this guy? So we were able to ride in a limo from Raleigh to Greensboro with Tyke and Nelson inside the gate, the whole nine yards, Prince concert.

17:16It was a wonderful experience. It's crazy. Yeah. And for those that don't know, we've done karaoke four nights here in my Tito Bay and Marlo opens up every night with either When Dubs Cry or Purple Rain, just so you know. So when he talks about Prince being his guy, he really does read that Prince is his guy. Yeah. So so so much that I want to unpack and unplug, man. So, you know, leadership is my thing. My because is my thing. with the reason that we do what they usually do. I want to go to you because I don't think I've ever really asked you this question. What's your because? What's your purpose today?

17:58At the 17-year-old, we're talking about the over 40. Thank you for that. Just slightly over 40. You signed into something. We're good. What's your because today? What's your purpose today? I feel like there's so many. life is short and we all have experiences and what i've learned from a lot of my mentors is can you help the next one okay and i think that's sort of my that's my because i think can i help the next one whether it's i have a friend of mine that's relocating and i had to talk to him about okay well do you want to stay in this even stay in the same field that you're in right now. You know, it's like you have these gifts, you know, you don't have to keep doing what you're doing.

18:50You got options. Okay. You're moving out of choice, not being forced to move. Okay. So if you want to get a refresh, hear a refresh. And we've gone back and forth. And sure enough, he found something that is still related to his field, but not the same field. And I felt great for him because he's excited. I mean, he, I, now I see the energy. So for me, that's a win for me okay in my mind not to say i'm taking any credit for it but i just makes me feel good when i'm able to help somebody okay when you can take what you've learned and why i do what i do no matter what it is is to try to help others yeah okay okay and i i i believe that because my worlds are so commingled that it actually helps me give a different perspective than if I were just a soccer coach or just an insurance agent or just this or just that.

19:49So when you hear scenarios, all of a sudden my database is saying, okay, this, this, this, this, let's get, okay, this is how I'm going to help or how I can possibly help. Or as you mentioned, how, who can I find to help because it's not just me okay as they say it takes a village it's not just me they say let me connect you with this person let me connect oh I got the perfect person and I think that um I feel I feel incredibly um blessed to have those relationships with wonderful heat yeah totally the second thing I want to unplug I have this huge parallel right I run this series on the connection between sports and leadership.

20:32And I tell people this all the time, and I don't mean it exclusively, but I personally believe that if you were the leader of your sports team, you were a captain, you were the person that rallied the troops, you make the most dynamic leaders in the business spaces because you see so much in sport. And it doesn't really matter the sport. Right. Like every match, there's going to be adversity, right? There's going to be a letdown, and there's going to come a moment where you just got to be a dog and say, I'm just going to do it anyway. And to me, that's business, right? Like there's going to be adversity.

21:10Sometimes you just got to roll up and say, hey, we're just doing this, didn't matter, right? What do you think about the parallel between business? I'm all about that. I think that especially, like I said, it doesn't matter which sport, but obviously I relate closely to soccer. and what people don't understand is that soccer is a game of mistakes. Otherwise, every time you get the ball, you score. Somebody's going to mess up. Somebody's going to mess up. So do you point the finger at that person and then the next time you lose it, you point the finger at that person? No, no, no, because we're a team, okay?

21:40We're trying to process this to get to the promised land, okay? So I'm a big believer in that adversity, what you learn from sport, whatever it is, okay? Step, step, step down. Step, step, step down. You just want to keep your eye on what you want to do. Your processes, your vision, what's your endgame? Where do you want to go? Okay? It's good. There's going to be some pitfalls. So I do, I definitely think that that translates. And all about the, okay, as a captain, as a leader, as a coach, okay, the job of a coach is to get the team ready. Okay? They can't play the game. They just got to get them ready.

22:24So on game day, that's the player's time. That's the fun time, right? That's the player's time right there, okay? We can't do it for them, okay? And so as a CEO, it's about, just like I do it as a coach, when we don't win, I take the responsibility, okay? I can't point a finger and say, you didn't do this, you didn't do that. You know what? I didn't get you ready to do that. How could I have helped you be more prepared to get that sale? How could I help you to be better at coaching this person? How could I help you get better at X, Y, or Z? Okay. That's the job. That's the role that a leader needs to take.

23:05Okay. Because, and then when you win, praise has to go to them too. Absolute praise. You can't take all the praise. Your name's going to be there. Right. But you can't do it without them. And you always got to let them know that, hey, you guys are rock stars. so for the leader that's struggling and they probably don't know they're struggling with this so i want all the leaders and i don't care if it's a business if it's community if it's your household like you are a leader if you're listening to the podcast if if you are struggling with or not aware on how to give your team praise because a lot of times you just said it's real easy to give criticism and we see that a lot like i i say where most managers i'm not talking about leaders where most managers fail is they don't connect with their team because they worry about the bodies they worry about the gotchas they worry about the you did this wrong i mean what's some advice to upwreck your team i think that you gotta remember where you started okay you gotta remember who helped you we all had those people we all have i got them i got my people on speed on speed about you know that have that have helped me when i thought i was great and i realized you know i'm not great okay they're where then i realized that's where i want to be yeah okay and i take those lessons so i think that as you said it's really easy to point the finger as they say you know when you point the finger you got three more coming back at you okay and that's a that's a just a great concept to always remember okay but yeah i mean we can all see it oh yeah they messed up, but most times people know they messed up.

24:44Okay. Why we got to rub it in. Okay. No, why do we have to make them feel even worse than what they already are? Okay. Can we pick them up? Can we, can we, can we acknowledge and learn from it? Can we acknowledge and make it better the next time? Okay. That's, that's really all that it is, man. That's all it is. so second last question before you're wrapping fire for the parents that are watching revisting that don't have their kids in sports why is it important to have your kids in some type of sport i'm gonna say as soon as possible but but whenever that becomes accessible for you like why is having your kids in sports important in for their development in sport physically for their mental yeah for their community association right i know you're a huge advocate of that so yeah why is that important to you well no matter what the sport is i i think it's more of a psychological thing okay so the psychology of having a goal achieving success having a goal and not achieving success and learning from it okay it's a great mentor or whatever whatever you're choosing to do whether it's an individual sport like a tennis or a golf okay um or a team sport like a basketball or soccer or lacrosse um the team sports just teaches people how to work together okay we have to depend on each other but also people are dependent upon you okay so when you get into the workforce or you get into school or you get into whatever it may be if you don't know how to work with others you may struck okay not everybody can be picasso okay okay and just you know do their thing and most people work on some sort of team whether it's a partnership whether it's a team of a thousand people at a big fortune 500 company okay you're you're part of a team most people are okay so that's what sport teaches you okay but also if you're not involved in sport if you're a musician you're part of the band the band is not clicking if the drummer is not doing his thing and the bassist is not doing her thing then what's up it don't it just don't sound right i mean we've heard some really bad karaoke you know what i'm saying so you know they were all cheers to that

27:22You know what? But I can say that because I did it. Okay. Those who don't do it, I don't know if you can talk smack about those that are doing it. Right. Okay. Okay. But, you know, it's, you know, so it's just really about being a part of a team. And I use that word team with whatever position I'm in, whatever role that I'm in, we call it a team. We're a team. This is my squad. Okay. This is who I'm rolling with. And I think that that plays a really good part in, like I said, dealing with that adversity in life. No, I love that, Matt. So for all the parents, seriously, get your kids involved in Stewart.

28:00Again, it doesn't matter the sport, but then also you be involved as well, right? Like I would say it's almost worse to have your child in sport and then you don't show interest in what you're doing. It's in their social degree, it's in their physical and mental health as well. As a coach, so this will be the last question before we hear Rabbit Pirate. As a coach, what are some things that you see parents should be doing better or differently as it relates to their kids and involvement? Aside from not wanting their kid to be the quarterback or they quit when they can't be the goal. Well, it's interesting because I see it from so many different perspectives.

28:44I have three wonderful children that were involved in activities growing up and are still involved in a lot of activities. I think just being present for them. OK, it's the first thing. Just being there, supportive. You know, number two, making sure that you're not blaming their coach or their individual player. OK, because when they hear you start saying these things, then they lose respect for their coach. okay same thing for a teacher same thing for whomever you just want to make sure that um you're there to understand that you're there to support to your child and their team okay and um and if they know that then they're going to be a part of they're going to they're one they're they'll want to do a longer they'll want to they'll want to they'll work harder at it they'll want to do things to make you happy as a parent as well.

29:46Okay. You know? Yeah. So, you know, we're all teaching each other. We all learn. You don't have to be older to be the teacher. You can be younger and still be the teacher. The child can teach the parent about what it means to be supportive. Okay? Especially when it's tough. Okay? When a child is struggling with making their free throws or catching a ball or defending or scoring a goal, it's so important that you get out there with them and you say, hey, you got this. Again, this game, this world, life is psychological and how you approach it. I always remember when I first got into the insurance business, I was out in Palm Springs, California, and there was a gentleman by the name of Keith Harrell who spoke and he talked about his book, Attitude is Everything.

30:38And that's just resonated to me ever since I was in. See, attitude is everything. It's all about how you approach it, okay? And so as a parent, your attitude is everything and how your child is going to progress with whatever they do, okay? Whether it's a school, sports, life, work, whatever it is, okay? Your friendships, the people you meet, everything is going to be, your attitude is everything. How are you approaching this? Okay. Is it open? Or are we just being closed-minded? Yeah. Okay. And you got to give it a chance. Got to give it a chance. Totally agree. Totally agree. All right. You ready to put some raft to fire?

31:10Not really. You should take a sip. I'm coming in. I'm coming in with the heat. Coming in with the heat. All right. So, UNC, the school you went to, big rivals, right? And I don't care what colleges you went to, you know you're rivals. Right. Right. What was your record against Carolina? in soccer 2-2 we won both games at home they won both games at their place what about all sport what was your record against one during your four years assuming you went four years it is as you say actually we went to class so that part we just didn't put on UNC online you were online back in the early 90's back in the day we were online Okay.

31:59No, we were hot. We were hot because I was there. Again, you trying to tell my age, but when we were there, we were hot in every sport. Okay. We took care of you guys. So you're not giving me a number. I can look you in the eye and you in the eye. All sport Carolina versus state when I was in school. Uh-huh. All sports. All sports. 73 and four, bro. We only lost to state four times ever. all sports just you know little brother status you know what that was just a time you know they call it the dark period renaissance and i don't know something like that okay um i i can neither confirm nor deny what you're saying okay but if you're getting your information from wikipedia i'm not sure that's what's up and i've spent 25 we have more sources okay okay we have resources Okay.

32:50All right. So your top five NC State basketball roster. And it's got to be like they got to be able to play a game. So you can't go like five point hours. Right. Oh, yeah. Give me your top five. So we're going to put your top five against my top five. Oh, it's all. And we're going to let the audience tell us who wins these games. Oh, top five. Okay. You're starting five. Okay. I'm going to go with my boy, Corch. That's my dog right there, man. Chris Corch. Yeah. All time. Assist leader in CAA when he left. Okay. So he was fire. Okay. He was fired. He was fired. And I got to go with his partner, Ice.

33:23I mean, the best shooter ever to play in the league. Okay. Yeah, in the league. So you're going Rodney Monroe. Rodney Monroe. Okay. So you're going Rodney Monroe over, like, Sidney Lowe? Yeah. Yeah. You said I need five. You need five? Yeah. Now, Witt's my boy. Now, Witt, I mean. You know, Witt is strong, too. You know, Witt will come out on this podcast. You know what? Witt's a great passer. You know, that's how they won a national championship. People thought it was a shot, but it was a pass to Lorenzo Charles in 83. Whit, you and I have had this conversation at 10 by 10 in the grill. You thought when it left your finger, you told me this.

33:56You thought it was bottom of the neck. You told me that. It was smooth. That's what threw everybody off because everybody's looking around. But our man, rest in peace, Lorenzo, knew what was up. It was a set play that Jimmy B had drawn up. So that's what's up. That's not what Whit told. Okay. All right. So you got two. You got your backcourt. Oh, you got my backcourt. You know, small four. We're going with the greatest college basketball player ever. Skywalker. Skywalker. David Thompson. He was MJ's idol. He was MJ's idol. MJ was decent. Okay. We're talking college, not pro. College. He was the best.

34:34You saw the jumper. Okay. It was a nice jumper. Okay. All right. I'll tell you what, man. My power forward. Man, that's a. Oh. I'm keeping it with the guys I played with. I got to go with Googs, man. Tom Gugliotta. Beast. I haven't had the second best NBA career of one state, you know, Laird. That should tell you something right now. Shout out to Googs. You're a good guy, but yeah. Okay. Tom Gugliotta. Yeah. All right, so we're going fire and ice. Yeah. David Thompson. Googs. Now I really got to think about my center. You sure do. You haven't had too many of them. No, you know, because everybody's a stretch five now.

35:16I'm going to see if I want to thank her. See who I can get. I got who you should say, but we'll see if he's saying. Who are you going to say, Chris Washburn? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Absolutely. Oh, man. We can distract him very easily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My guy Washburn, yes, yes, yes. No, he could do it. He could, man, that's historic. between him and Shackleford. Man. But I don't know, man. I mean, Burleson. I mean, if you're just going to go some height, because I got to, you know, be somebody that's going to get some rebounds. I mean, that's a big boy. You're talking about when they were playing at their prime.