Leveraging Your Zone of Genius with Amina AlTai

0:28We always recommend Shopify. What happens when ambition stops serving your purpose and starts draining your peace? And today on Mick Unplugged, I sit down with my really good friend, Amina Altai, an executive coach, author of The Ambition Trap, and one of the leading voices on purpose-first leadership. We impact the mindset shift that you need to go from painful ambition to purposeful ambition. We talk about the toll of success that doesn't serve you. and at the end in our quick five we talk about her favorite brand of peanut butter it might surprise you ladies and gentlemen i present my good friend this amina alton you're listening to mick unplugged hosted by the one and only mick hunt this is where purpose meets power and stories spark transformation mick takes you beyond the motivation and into meaning helping you discover your because and becoming unstoppable i'm rudy rush and trust me you're in the right place.

1:24Let's get unplugged. Mina, how are you doing today, dear? Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. I need to bring you everywhere with me. That was just the ultimate hype train. That was incredible. No, no, no. It's all true. It's all who you are. I mean, I've been a really big fan of yours. One of my favorite authors of all time, and we're going to talk about the books in a little bit, but I love starting the episode off by asking my guest, What's their because? That thing that's deeper than your why that really keeps you going. So far to say today, Amina, what's your because? Yeah, I love that you asked that question because it's so beautiful.

2:04But my because is I have this belief that those of us that are called to purpose-driven work are actually driving toward our version of Dr. King's beloved community. And so my because is I want to create my version of Dr. King's beloved community where we center justice, peace, and equity, and everybody gets to live into the fullness of their experience. Because imagine what kind of world we'd live in if we all had that. I love it. And I mean, I was so excited to get to ask you that question, right? Because a lot of my guests, a lot of my friends, a lot of my family, you know, are because centers around like our children or, you know, some of the things that we do, sometimes even our pets.

2:44But Amina, you're not the cat lady. You're the plant lady. Talk to us about your love of plants and all the really cool things that you do with your children. Oh, my gosh. Well, I have to tell you kind of like a sad story. So oftentimes people will see this plant in the background of my recordings. His name is Herm. I've had him for nine years. He was a giant Monstera. And when I first got him, I carried him home on the subway. That's how small he was. You could carry him in your arms. And then he grew to like seven feet tall. But over the course of the last year, he wasn't doing so well. So I thought, okay, let me replant him.

3:21He'd gotten so big. I thought maybe he needs a bigger container. And I replanted him. Well, I actually hired someone to replant him because he was too big for me to do it. And then after the person replants him, they're like, oh, I've never worked with this plant before. I hope it doesn't die. And I was like, what? What now? So fast forward, basically Herm doesn't do so well in the transplant, but now I'm propagating him. So I took nine cuttings and I'm actually propagating it into a new plant that I will put back together. But I do love my plant children and I just had a very, really hard experience.

3:52But I thought it was a metaphor. I was like, Herm outgrew the pot and he got too big and he needed new roots. And I feel like that's such an important metaphor for all of us. There are times in our lives where we need new roots. So it feels like a burning down, but it's actually a rebuilding. So that's the metaphor I'm running with this. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love learning different things about you. So it's kind of cool. It's kind of cool. I want to talk a little bit about the ambition trap, multiple time bestseller. Right. And for those that haven't written books, let me explain it to you.

4:26Like bestsellers are like the previous week's info, sales and data. So it's not like you write a book and it's a bestseller forever. So one, this is how dynamic the book is because it's a multi time bestseller, which is amazing, Amina, by the way. But let's talk about the reasoning and the logic behind wanting to put that book out. What was that? What was that concept like for you? Yes. So the book is called The Ambition Trap. And I'm somebody that has deeply studied ambition for basically my whole life. I am the child of immigrants and really watched my dad struggle to kind of find his place in the world.

5:06And, you know, I picked up a lot of that programming, too. I was told like keep your head down work really hard be the hardest working person in the room first one in last one out and that worked for me until it didn't work for me and I ended up getting very sick and getting two autoimmune diseases but it happened in this really dramatic fashion where my doctor called and was literally like if you don't change your ways you're days away from multiple organ failure you have to shift whatever you're doing so I knew this was like six years into my marketing career at the time I had to change my relationship to ambition and success and eventually a few years after that, I went on to become a coach, but I had this front row seat to other really ambitious people and most of my coaching practice are women and other historically excluded people.

5:50And so I noticed that we all had this really tenuous relationship with ambition because we're told to take up space. We're told to speak truth to power and then in the same breath, we're told not to. So there's this push-pull double bind, right? This not good enough to taking up too much space and I saw all of us really rumbling with that And so I wanted to deeply study and explore ambition. And I came up with this framework where I think ambition is neutral and natural. It's just a desire for growth or a wish for more life. And that's inherent in every living thing on the planet, from our human babies to our plant babies.

6:22But we make it right for some people and wrong for others. And there's two orientations of ambition. It can be painful, which is driven by our core wounds. And that's when we have this insatiable desire to chase because we're coming from a place of pain. And then my invitation in the book is to pivot into purposeful ambition that's connected to our truth that's coming from a place of wholeness. And so that was the impetus for the book and sort of the thesis of it. I love it. And I want to go into that because you do talk about painful and purposeful ambition. And so for those that are watching, those that are listening, we have the expert here.

6:57Amina, how do you distinguish between painful ambition and purposeful ambition? Yeah. So painful is driven by the core wounds. So there's five core wounds and a core wound is an initial injury of the psyche. It's sort of like an injury that happens in our formative years that shapes us. And so those wounds are rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And every single human has one. It's just a very human rite of passage. Even if you have the best parents on the planet, like you'll just emerge with one either from the playground or vicariously. And as a result of the wounds who are corresponding masks.

7:31So for example, if you have a rejection wound, the mask you wear as avoidance or withdrawal. If you have a betrayal wound, the mask you wear as control, where you try to control everything. If you have an injustice wound, the mask you can wear as rigidity or perfectionism. And when we build our ambition upon that, it's a bit of a house of cards. And so painful ambition is driven by those core wounds and it has a couple of signatures. So it can look like moving at unsustainable urgency, instrumentalizing our minds and bodies to get to the goal. This desire to win no matter the cost and no matter the cost being the key phrase there because winning is lovely, right?

8:05But it's like when we're willing to hurt ourselves and others to get there, it can look like black and white, either or thinking. And then purposeful ambition on the other hand is it's more contentment based versus that win no matter the cost. It's about being collaborative versus like hyper individualistic. It's about honoring our needs versus hurting our bodies. So sort of the opposite of the painful piece. That's brilliant. Like truly brilliant. And it captivated me when I started reading the book, you know, obviously the title got me the ambition trap. And I said, wait a second, am I not supposed to be ambitious?

8:39Like, hold on. And then going into the book, you're like, no, but you need to understand the purpose behind the ambition. But then you also talk about and highlight the interconnection of body, mind, and career. And it really, really stuck with me because, you know, as a serial entrepreneur, as I like to be, I drive hard, right? Like I drive really hard. I, my friends laugh because I know one speed and one speed only. And it's like, I'm never going to slow down. But the book did make me pause and it said, okay, I may never change how hard I run or how fast I run. Right. I may never do that, but I can talk about this interconnection that you brought up so brilliantly in the book.

9:21And so for those that are watching or listening, talk about that interconnection of body, mind and career. I don't think we can separate ourselves, right? I think so many of us are taught to, right? Where a lot of us live as if there's this invisible line, you know, below our neck connecting the mind and body, but they're one. And so the thoughts that we have impact our body, our nervous system impacts our thoughts, right? So all of these pieces are so intertwined. And if we live our lives in a dominantly sympathetic or fight or flight state, we're going to have fight or flight thoughts. It's also going to express as disease, right?

9:54So when we're thinking about ambition and our careers and hard charging and all these things, we have to bring our minds and our nervous systems on the journey. And it's exactly what you said. It doesn't mean that we can't hard charge, but it means we need to work harmoniously with these things. Let me give you an example. You know, I think how we're taught about ambition is we think it's more for more sake all the time, right? More money, more power, more achievements. but I actually think it's cyclical, right? So I think it goes in cycles. So we have these seasons of growth where we, you know, I want to write a book, I want a promotion, I want to launch a new company, right?

10:23And you nurture your inner and outer environment and you have this beautiful peak moment, right? Where if we're using the plant metaphor, it's like the petals come out, it's gorgeous. But then the seasons change and we wind down and we go back underground. And so I think it is perfectly fine to sprint in the growth periods, right? Like I cannot look you in the face and say that writing a book did not require me to sprint because it absolutely required me to sprint. And then, you know, after the push of the book coming out, I went back underground and I kind of nurtured myself again before I decided to rise and take aim again.

10:53And I think allowing that cycle, allowing ourselves to be in right relationship with our bodies as we are ambitious is so important and really important for burnout prevention. I needed that in the book because it was coming at the right time for me when I first read it. as you know, right, speaking that you do, writing a book, the appearances, and then, oh, by the way, you're also running businesses, right? You have clients that you have to meet the demand of. That's the part of the case. We run whole businesses while doing this too. Right. And I'm like, you know, Amina and I have so much in common that your book was right there for me.

11:34So how do you, as a coach, right, as a leader of people, how do you guide your clients and your peers to build careers that feel as good as they look? Because again, you go through this burnout. I shouldn't say burnout. You go through the sprinting stage, right? And then everybody posts what they're doing on social media and it looks great, but it should also feel good to you as well too. So how do you coach people through that? Yeah, I love this question. Well, first of all, we have to redefine success for ourselves, right? Because I think a lot of us are conditioned to believe it's something else.

12:09And anytime we're like, success should look this way, if we're using the language of should, we're usually in somebody else's belief system, right? It could be cultural, it could be familial. And I had all these ideas about what success should be based on my immigrant parents, and then realized, actually, I want something different for myself. Success for me includes my body being well. I think it should for all of us, right? I think that should be each of our birthrights. But so first of all, we have to reclaim success for ourselves and redefine it for ourselves. And second of all, we really have to collaborate with our bodies and our nervous systems.

12:40You know, I just had a birthday last week and every year on my birthday, thanks, I write myself a little note and I say, open it the next year on your birthday. And it's funny because I was reading last year's note that I wrote to myself. And one of the things that was at the top of the list was, you know, I want ease for you. And when I thought about, and I was like, ease has been on the top of my list for so long. And I thought about it and I I was like, you know what? I think I actually have achieved it. I was just thinking about it a little differently. You know, in the past I thought about ease as like, oh, you know, there's so much spaciousness and, you know, I was thinking about it as a spaciousness, I think.

13:14And when I tuned into it this year, I was like, oh, at the level of the nervous system, I do have ease, right? I'm still sprinting. I'm still putting out a book. I'm still running a business, all of these things. But the way that my nervous system experiences that is very different than the way that it used to. It's more rest and digest around it versus fight or flight. And I just had that moment about it recently. And so all of this is to say is we have to redefine success for ourselves. And I think also finding that harmony at the level of the nervous system. But inside the book, there's a five-part framework.

13:45And basically I talk about how purposeful work and purposeful ambition hinges upon five things. And it needs to leverage our space that where values aligned, that we're connected to the impact that we want to have, whether that's our family, community, or the greater good, that our needs are met, and that's a big one, and that we're cultivating a sense of contentment. And so when we've checked the box on all five of those things, we're usually flowing. Wow. That's why I'm glad I'm talking to you now. Again, like all the things that I had questions or that I would highlight in the book, like you're coming back and talking through them.

14:23Again, being a big fan of yours, I heard or saw an interview where you were talking about that zone of genius and how you'll work with people that are rock stars, superstars, athletes. And they're like, yeah, but I don't think I really have that genius zone. I just work hard. I'm going to work everybody. And then this thing happens. But talk to us about just that phenomenon a little bit that you're able to untap into people to help them understand, no, everybody has some type of genius and you help us get that out. I love when people ask me questions around the zone of genius because it is work that makes me so happy to talk about.

15:01So the zone of genius is a term that was coined by Gay Hendricks, who wrote the book, The Big Leap. I highly recommend it. It's one of my favorites. And so I built upon this concept. And I believe that all of us have a zone of genius. And I think a lot of us operate in spaces and work in organizations where we're usually in service to one person's genius. but that creates a lot of toxic dynamics. So in reality, everybody has a zone that they are off the charts brilliant at where we don't have to push force or effort. It's just innate. Our gifts kind of flow in that space. And I always use the example of a child who's a musical virtuoso, because they come to the planet with that gift kind of, right?

15:38But they have to keep honing it and getting better at it to really like live into the genius. And that's available for all of us. But I cannot tell you, I think it must happen in virtually every coaching session. I cannot tell you how many people I've sat across from and they are just incredible humans and they will look at me and say I do not have a zone of genius and i'm literally like looking at the gold medals in the background or like I see the 360 reviews that they get inside of their organization and it's so clear to me But you know the way that we've come to understand genius. I think it's part of the problem Right.

16:09We think that it's only high IQ scores. We think that it's only stem, right? And when I was researching for the book I traced the lineage of the word genius all the way back to ancient Rome. And it was often a hero and rarely a heroine. And there was a study that was done by 92nd Street Y, and they found that girls as young as six think that genius is a male trait. And so, so many of us have to reclaim that word for us because we have these perceptions and ideas of what it looks like. But what I love about each of us having a zone of genius is that it democratizes it, right? Then there's no above or below.

16:43There's no power over because we each have a zone. And when we come together in it, that's where we shift things. So how magical is that? It's like, no one's genius is better than anybody else's. And we're all in service to each other. I just think that's like the best part of it. So what's Amina's genius? Okay. So I think that it is seeing other people's genius. And that sometimes I think sounds like a cop-out, but the reason I can see other people's genius is because of the way that I hold a container is something happens in the first session with all my clients where I look over and I'm like, oh my God, I love this person because I see them fully, right?

17:19That's my gift is seeing other people fully. And then it's just so evident what their gift is from that place. But it's because I look through the lens of love, I think. Hmm, okay. I won't count that as a cop-out. I pick up what you're putting down. I pick up - I'm so glad. I do think it is a gift. And to clarify, right? All of our zones of genius can be different. Like sometimes they are more power skills. Sometimes they're more hard skills. It looks different for all of us. There's no right or wrong way to genius. Yeah, I agree. Can I ask what your zone of genius is? I think I have a unique ability to see the path forward to make a result happen.

17:59So I'm so results oriented and I think I'm not unique. I think there are a lot of results oriented people. what I think a zone of genius is for me is the path to make the result happen I can usually identify really quickly that's cool there's like a level of clarity and I really love this body of work called human design and human design they refer to it as the opportunist in the way that your brain can connect the dots faster than anybody else's to get to the path and it's like oh when people's brain works that way I'm just like that's amazing yeah yeah I'm able to quiet noise to see the path.

18:37So yeah, I think that's me. I also think you're an amazing listener. Oh, okay. I'll take that. I'll take that. I'll take that. So one of your other zones of genius is helping organizations break through, I'm going to call it burnout culture, right? And really putting the action behind it. Because I think a lot of times your top, not your top A, but your type A CEOs and C-suite leaders, right? Again, it's that if I can do it, you can do it. If I'm willing to work 12 hours a day, then everybody on the team should be willing to work 12 hours a day. Well, in 2025, 2026, that's not what the modern employee actually looks for.

19:24And modern leaders shouldn't want that either. Talk to us about just that, getting rid of the burnout culture. Number one, why is it important? And then I think the most important thing for the viewers and listeners, what's like the first or maybe top two changes that leaders need to make to avoid burnout culture? You know, I think context is so important, right? Because like when those CEOs are like, I work 12 hour days, I work 70 hour weeks, we're not thinking about the context of their life, right? Oftentimes they are making seven figures, multiple seven figures. Oftentimes they have vast support both at home and at work, right?

20:01And then we're speaking to people that make, let's say, less than six figures and don't have that level of support, right? So I think context is so important. And so I think it's, you know, really challenging to say to somebody that is in such a different and much more precarious situation than you to be like, be the hardest working person in the room like me, because you're not the same. I think that's super important to say. And then your second question was, how can we get rid of burnout? Yeah. What are the, what are the top two things or action items that leaders can do to, to start to break that cycle of a burnout culture?

20:35One of the things I think we can do that I think is a really positive thing to, both for the individual and the organization is focusing on the zone of genius, right? Because if we are working in that space that we are off the charts, brilliant at what we can contribute, usually far outpaces what others can contribute in that space and what we can contribute in other zones. And so it just requires less energy and effort on the body. And that in and of itself can shift burnout. And organizations like that, right? Because we're not saying like, hey, shift to only working five hours a day or three days a week.

21:07We're saying actually this pivot into your zone of genius will serve the individual and will serve the organization. So I find that that's a really positive change and a great way to language it. The other one that I have that, you know, I think sometimes is a tougher pill to swallow is the urgency culture. So much of the time we operate as if everything is urgent. And it's actually not true. Few things are urgent, right? And it's important for us to prioritize and address those things. But if we operate as if everything is urgent, and we're constantly sprinting, that has such an impact on the body.

21:38And so I think shifting urgency culture is another really big one. I agree with you, which is why, again, we have so much in common. You know, I'm a huge believer in the Eisenhower matrix, right? Like you get tasks or you get things and you have to quantify them. Is it, is this thing urgent and important? Is it, is it urgent, but not important? Is it neither urgent nor important? Right. And so that's what we do because for me, I think the best way to achieve life is to work on things that are important, but not urgent. Right. Like if we're constantly in a spot of putting out fires, then literally that's all we do.

22:14And then at some point you start just looking for fires to put out and that becomes. Right. And so one of the things that that I work with leaders on is how do you avoid that trap of. The person who's really good at putting out fires at some point is just going to start finding fires. And then to everybody else, they're not really fires. And so I'm a huge fan of what you just said, because I can relate in that sense for sure. That was so brilliantly said. And I think that I think I used to be that person. Like when I think about my marketing career, I was so trained to put out fires. Then I sought out the fires.

22:52Right. But then you become addicted to chaos. And then you also can't access your higher level of thinking because you're just always in the chaos. So I love how you language that. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. You know, and I can't I can't go a step further without also acknowledging something for you, because what you don't know, Amina, is that my sister, one of my aunts, a couple of my female cousins really look up to you in the work that you do. You are such a barrier breaker and you help women who are facing. And these are my words and my words only. So don't don't come at me with comments, but come at me because I'm a big boy and I can handle it.

23:39But but but you help people that are facing systemic issues or systemic expectations. I'd love for you to talk about that journey a little bit and that passion that you have, because you really are so valuable. You were so needed. And I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you so much for saying that. None of it is lost on me. And especially the part about like your cousins and sisters, all of it, like it's just so meaningful to me. And it's like, this is what gets me up every single day is I want to be in service and support of these people. And the reason that I do it is that I think just very early on, I realized like a lot of people realize, right.

24:24The starting line is not the same for everybody. And all of our experiences, particularly in the workplace are really different, right. It's not a meritocracy and we experienced a lot of harm as a result of it. And, you know, like that's something that I really want to shift in my lifetime. Like how can we support a lot of these? So most of my clients are the first, the few is the only is. So they are the first woman in leadership, the first person of color, the first queer person, the first man of color. Right. And they experience so much headwinds as a result of that. Right. They have their very own glass cliff experiences where maybe they make it through the glass ceiling, but then they get pushed off the proverbial cliff and they experience a lot of bias.