Why Not Swing Big: Unlocking Your Undeniable Potential with Kwame Christian

21:42So with my kids, for instance, when I just started as a father and there are times where you have to correct your children. And so you say, hey, you shouldn't do this. You should do that. And I recognize that no matter how soft I can make my voice, I'm still six foot one and large to this child. That's still a scary thing. And so I would lower myself to their level because I said, oh, if I'm looking up at a 12 foot tall giant who is not happy with me, that would be scary no matter how compassionate the giant sounds. But if I get down to the level, OK, now I can see it. So I'm thinking about even if we're on a Zoom call, what is in my background?

22:20How do I look like to them? What research do they have they done on me? How am I appearing? How am I sounding? All of those things. And that changes the way that you interact with the person, you know, so thinking about But taking empathy to its furthest extreme is important. Now, the humility that's important, and we can go deeper because I feel like humility is one of the hidden skills of top negotiators. It's recognizing that no matter how good I am at the skill of empathy, I will never be able to fully appreciate what it is that you're going through. And so that's crucial. So I've been married for, it's going to be 16 years this weekend.

23:02And I've seen my wife give birth to two children. And we've talked about it a lot. I don't know what that feels like, Mick. There's no way. There's no matter how empathetic I am. And so we have to also recognize that the other person is the ultimate authority on their experience. And we should honor that. And so when I'm listening, I'm listening with a degree of reverence because I recognize that they have information about themselves. and the situation that it is impossible for me to get elsewhere. So I want to learn from them and be humble in that approach. And so you see how the way that I've been describing this, this does not sound like the smoky backroom negotiation that a lot of people are familiar with when they think about the term.

23:47But when we have a more human, heart-centered approach, good things happen. Amen.

23:53Mick Hunt:Amen to that. This next segment I call Hot Takes. And I feel like we could spend five hours on hot takes because you've given me some of the greatest quotes and lessons. And so I'm going to choose a couple and we're just going to go deeper into them. So one of the things that, again, you taught me, and this is a lesson for me that I'm allowing our viewers and listeners to have, is that you can't convince anybody of anything. They have to convince themselves. And dang it again, Kwame, you made me reflect, bro. Like you made me go back and say, I made it much harder than it needed to be. I was over-convincing when it starts with the other person first.

24:39Mick Hunt:So break that down for those that are watching or listening, that you can't convince anyone of anything. They have to convince themselves first. Yes. So here's my approach when it comes to conversations. I say to myself, my goal isn't to have the person leave the conversation and say, Kwame changed my mind. I want them to leave the conversation and say, I talked to Kwame and then I started to think about it differently and I decided. I don't want them to think that I had a role in it at all. That's it. And so the thing is, the harder we push, the harder they push back. And so for me, I'm extremely transparent in the way that I negotiate.

25:17I'm saying, hey, this is my goal. This is what I'm trying to do. But I understand you have goals too. Tell me what your goals are, and then I'll just spend the whole time talking about their goals. I don't need help advocating for myself. I'll inject that when necessary. But my goal here is to help you express yourself so I can get a better understanding. And then how can we marry what it is that I want with what you want? And then you tell me whether or not that works. Completely different vibe. And so the thing is, when it comes to negotiation, one thing I always say is that I'm trying to make these difficult conversations easier.

25:52because the reason I say that is because I'm thinking about it from a psychological perspective. What are the psychological perspectives that are in my way? Because with my hypothesis is that if I lower or eliminate those barriers, then we just have a conversation and we figure it out. Now it's two people just problem solving. We are on the same side of the table trying to put this puzzle together. And sometimes the pieces don't fit and that's okay. And the thing is, when it comes to that, it also takes a lot of patience too. because you recognize that they are in control of the persuasive process, their willingness to be persuaded.

26:28So I think about it in terms of demonstrating enough empathy and listening long enough for them to give themselves the permission to be persuaded. That's it. I am just helping them through the process. And it completely changes the way that you interact with them and they receive that interaction too.

26:45Mick Hunt:Okay, here's something my younger self would have benefited from. Most of us picked a bank at 16 and never looked back. And it's been nickel and diming us ever since. That's where Chime comes in. Chime is changing the way people bank. They're not like those traditional old banks that gatekeep the perks and pile on fees unless you carry some massive balance. Chime is the most rewarding, fee-free banking. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees, no minimum balance fees. Here's where it stacks up. You get 5 % cash back on your Chime card in a category you choose, like gas or groceries. You build credit through regular, everyday spending with no credit check.

27:21Mick Hunt:Your savings grow at a rate nine times the national average. And if you're ever in a pinch, SpotMe spots you up to$200 fee-free. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com slash mick. That is chime.com slash mick. It only takes a few minutes to sign up, and Mick Unplugged listeners can earn up to an extra$350. Bro. Bro. So now I'm going to get personal and tell you how this helped one of my companies. When people think of sales and you think of sales process, most of the time people think negotiation starts after you've given a price.

28:03Mick Hunt:Right. So I've given Kwame, Kwame, it's going to cost you$10 ,000 for X and it's X number of years or months or whatever the services are. and now we think we're in negotiation. So much so that if you look at traditional sales pipelines and Salesforce, HubSpot, you name it, they start negotiation after you've given a proposal. Wow. Right? Yeah. Kwame taught me and my company that the entire sales process is actually a negotiation from moment one until you've collected payment or have been told, no, it's a negotiation. And when we changed our mindset on that, bro, when we closed more sales, but the sales process was so much easier because we started the negotiation in that first call or that first meeting or that get to know each other.

28:53Mick Hunt:Because as you just eloquently said, it was all about putting the puzzle together, together, right? Not, hey, here's the puzzle that's already made and the puzzle is going to cost you 10 grand. And our mindset shifted to, no, let's do it together, because what traditional thought of negotiation is, is truly just a pushback. If I give Karmé the complete puzzle and say it's 10 grand, if he doesn't like it, he's pushing back. That's not negotiation. Like, he had nothing to do with building the puzzle. So I applaud you for that. And I love your take on that, because I feel like there's a whole new way to do sales by people joining some of your academies.

29:34Mick Hunt:But we'll talk about that. Thank you. Well, first of all, listeners, let the record reflect that Mick just volunteered to buy dinner when we meet, because if I'm helping you make money, man, I want my commission. Done deal. Jokes aside, I tell you, it's a different mindset shift, because the thing is, let's get really nerdy, then practical. So humans follow these scripts called heuristics. So going into a situation, there's a choreographed dance. So for instance, if we're going into a movie theater, it doesn't matter where in America we're going to a movie theater, we know, we enter the door, we find the ticket person, we buy the ticket, we give the other ticket to the other ticket person, and we get our popcorn, have to get popcorn, etc.

30:18We know that script. So for me, I want to flip the script. I want to make sure that I'm the person handling the framing of this negotiation. So instead of just thinking about it in heuristics, it's about stories. What's the story here? This is every conversation, every negotiation for me, it starts with a storyline. Who am I? Who are you? What are we trying to do here? And I want to get to that story first because my goal is to create a story that is so incredibly positive for both of us, positive and collaborative, that it would make you look silly to say no. Right? That is my goal. Because if you reject my frame, you are admitting in this relationship, I am the bad guy.

30:59when you had a story when we're both the good guy trying to figure something out, right? So the question is, what are we negotiating for? So for me with negotiation, I define negotiation as anytime you're in a conversation and somebody wants something, which means the majority of our conversations will qualify. So in that initial reaction, what am I negotiating for? I'm negotiating for trust. I'm negotiating for information. I'm negotiating for collaborative vibes. I want us to feel good while we're interacting with each other and setting the stage in that way. It changes everything. So each step lowers a barrier because they are realizing there's no fear.

31:38He's not trying to get one over on me. We're working together. And then this is the last thing that's super important that actually comes back around. You have to have a wider mindset and an abundance mindset to be able to pull this off. But for me, I don't look at negotiation as the art of deal making. I think about it as the art of deal discovery. My goal is to sit down with you and see whether or not we can discover a deal together. If we can, fantastic. If we can't, that's fine. And then people will be more willing to come back around and recommend other folks to you if you are willing to let them go and not try to get one over on them.

32:14Mick Hunt:Amen. Amen. So I'm going to put links to this in the show notes in the descriptions because again, I want everyone to go to your website to really discover the American Negotiation Institute. Like you do so much great work there. We have another thing in common. I'm a huge believer in curiosity and curiosity as a framework. Like I have something called the four zones of curiosity. Like I think whenever you're having a conversation or you're leading people, there's four things that people are curious about. like who you are, right? What it is that you do, why should they care? And then the last one is, can they trust you, right?

32:57Mick Hunt:Like I believe it's broken down in those four and you have the compassionate curiosity framework, man. Like I would love for you to break that down for everyone. And then we're all gonna, I'm gonna make sure people like sign up and go get that because that's amazing. Thank you. So here's the thing with the podcast, I've been actually just made the post today, 10 years of doing Negotiate Anything, over 1 ,800 episodes. We were the number one negotiation podcast in the world for almost a decade. So all the brightest minds in the field have come on the show. And so I turned it into qualitative research.

33:30I wanted to see what everybody was saying, but describing differently, depending on their field. So it led to two discoveries and one creation, and compassionate curiosity is that creation. So discovery number one is that the best negotiators adapt and flow. So they don't have a rigid approach. They will prepare very thoroughly, but then they are willing to sit back and trust their skills and make adjustments to make sure the conversation continues to approach, to move productively. That's discovery number one. Discovery number two is that there are only three core skills you need to be a better negotiator.

34:06Become a better listener, ask better questions, so be curious, and then also become better at managing your emotions, both yours and the other sides. And this is what you're talking about with emotional intelligence. And all of these are filtered through the lens of continuous improvement because there's no limit to how good you could get at these things. No limit. You spend the rest of your life focusing on those three core skills, you're going to be good. And when you think about a tactic or strategy, it is some combination of those three core skills used in the right circumstance at the right time.

34:36Right. So that's what prompted me to create compassionate curiosity as a mental model that allows you to use the secrets of the best negotiators in a fluid type of way while giving you space for your own authenticity. The way that you use it will sound differently than the way I use it, but fundamentally it will be the same thing. So it's three steps based on what it is that's in front of you. So step number one is acknowledge and validate the emotions. So you're going to label the emotions, you're going to validate what the person says about how they're feeling, and this lowers the emotional temperature of the room.

35:07There's countless studies about this. And then number two, we're going to get curious with compassion. We're going to ask open-ended questions with a compassionate tone to gather information, demonstrate empathy, build rapport, and build trust. And my goal in the conversation is to speak only 30 % of the time and give the person the floor 70 % of the time. It's perfect. And then lastly is joint problem solving, using joint problem solving. So it's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem. We're going to work together to find a solution. So through all the conversation, all I'm doing is cycling through those.

35:41Do I see an emotion? Then I'm in step one. Is everything chill? Okay, then I'm in step two. That means I need have information. Is everybody chill? Relatively. Do I have enough information? Then I have earned my right to step number three. But at some point they might get a little bit more emotional. I know cycle it back up to step number one. So it allows you to know what to say and when to say it for maximum impact.

36:04Mick Hunt:Amazing. Amazing, brother. Like I said, man, like I could talk to you about this all day, all day. I know we don't have that much time, but I want to shift to what I call the room.

36:21was there a certain room that you were in a dinner a conversation that sparked this journey

36:30Mick Hunt:that you're on like can you remember like that meeting that room yes that situation where it was like i know that this is my destiny and this is what i'm supposed to do yep so one of the things that i do and i i ask other people to do it too because you i know you've you've been in business long enough to see somebody has a twinkle in their eye where they're not living their best life. So after I discovered this question for myself, I love asking people the same question. And it's, what would you do if everything in the world was free? What would you do if everything was free? Because people will give some frivolous answers at first.

37:05Oh, I'll travel the world. I'd buy all these things. Okay, good, good, good. And then when you've gotten off the hedonic treadmill, you've had enough pleasure. Now then what would you do to find purpose? Okay, interesting. And so for me, I was building my solo practice as a business lawyer. And I was in order to get more clients, I was working with a lot of startups and entrepreneurs. So I would go to different business development centers to give seminars. And I loved negotiation because of what it did for me. So I was giving all of these free negotiation seminars around the city. and I said, oh my gosh, the thing that I love the most about what I do is teaching people how to negotiate.

37:47Because invariably, when I would teach them the skill, they would say, yeah, I know how I can use this to make more money in my business. But now I realize I can talk to my spouse. I can talk to my kids. I didn't know this, right? And so for me, it's that aha moment. I'm a teacher at heart and letting people seeing that, that, that eureka moment where they're saying, oh my gosh, after learning this, my life is fundamentally different. I said, okay, that's it. I don't know how I'm going to do it. I'm 27 years old, solo practitioner. And I just left my job and I've got a wife and a small kid and now I'm going to teach negotiation.

38:28Who even does that? Right. And so I said, I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I know that is what I will do.

38:35Mick Hunt:There you go. I love that, dude. And, you know, we talked about the podcast briefly, man, but I want to give you the floor to talk about the podcast, where we can find it, some of the cool things that you have going on. I'm going to have links to your website because there's a lot of dynamic things that you do there. You can actually book Kwame to speak. I highly recommend that as well, too. But the floor is yours for a moment, brother. Thank you. Yes. So this is an interesting time, Mick. I'm going to break some news for your audience. Because after 10 years of doing this, we are actually going to be wrapping up Negotiate Anything.

39:12And it is a bittersweet thing because we've accomplished so much. We've helped so many people. And after 1800 episodes, I think the topic is pretty well explored at this point. And so I found myself asking what's next. And one of the goals that I had was to build the largest free audio library for negotiation content on the planet. And we did that because it's so expensive to get courses. So I wanted to make sure that we could keep it free all this time. And we have and we always will. now the transition so in the last few years i've been demoing this motto i never said it publicly but the motto was big swings only and i said you know what what would happen if i just went big on everything if i just took my dreams and went maximum effort on everything and took those risks and incredible things happened the people would congratulate me for being on the mel robbins podcast how did you get that what introduction did you have cold cold pitch big swings why not right?

40:16And so I started thinking about just life in terms of that. So I have two philosophical foundations for this. Number one, if you have the mindset and skill set to hit the ball out of the park, the only thing that holds us back is whether or not we're willing to take a big swing. And so for me, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't playing small. So I started swinging big on everything. So that's the first one. But then the other philosophical basis is more Michelangelo carving the statue of David. And he said, the statue of David was always there. I just had to remove what was superfluous or unnecessary.

40:52And so for me, when it comes to the big swings, it's not about whether or not you hit the ball out of the park, because sometimes you're going to whiff. It's about making sure that you are taking those big swings like an artist sculpting yourself and removing what is unnecessary. So it is a path of self-discovery. No matter what happens, if the swing hits and it's a success or it fails, I want to be the man that I respect. That's it. I'm building the man that I want to be. So for me, the next chapter is this new podcast, Big Swings Only helping people to live the life and become the person they were supposed to be.

41:39I can't wait.

41:40Mick Hunt:I can't wait. We did 1 ,800 episodes and I wasn't in a single episode. I'm just going to throw that out. Big Swings is for you, Mick. I'm just saying, I'm taking my Big Swing right here. Yes. Yes. Okay. Done. 100 % and we will do it in person. I will come up there. I will come up there. I love it, brother. Okay, here's something my younger self would have benefited from. Most of us picked a bank at 16 and never looked back. And it's been nickel and diming us ever since. That's where Chime comes in. Chime is changing the way people bank. They're not like those traditional old banks that gatekeep the perks and pile on fees unless you carry some massive balance.

42:28Mick Hunt:Chime is the most rewarding, fee-free banking. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees, no minimum balance fees. Here's where it stacks up. You get 5 % cash back on your Chime card in a category you choose, like gas or groceries. You build credit through regular, everyday spending with no credit check. Your savings grow at a rate nine times the national average. And if you're ever in a pinch, Spot Me spots you up to$200 fee-free. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com slash Mick. That is chime.com slash Mick. It only takes a few minutes to sign up, and Mick Unplugged listeners can earn up to an extra$350.

43:10Mick Hunt:Well, like I said, we'll have links to all of your websites, your socials. And this is what I want to do. Before I get to my rapid fire, quick five. Because I know you have your AI coach that's on your website. There's courses. there's a lot of things. I think, I think the AI coach is a good way for people to understand who they are, to get to know your philosophies, your frameworks before they go into some of the other things. So here's what I'm going to do. If you're okay with it. Yeah. 10 people. I'm going to pay for a full year of them to have you as their AI coach on your, your platform. Wow.

44:00Mick Hunt:But here's the qualification. Because I'm a LinkedIn guy too. And I feel like our followers and viewers that are on LinkedIn, this is going to benefit you. So I want you to DM Kwame and I a video that explains why you deserve, not why you need, why you deserve this. And I'm going to select 10. And I promise you, you're going to have the best AI coach for a full year for 12 consecutive months that you've ever had. And that's going to lead you to doing other things with Kwame because I believe in that and I know that. So Kwame, if you're okay with it. Absolutely. Thank you. Mick, that means the world to me.

44:47Mick Hunt:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's great. That's what I want to do, bro. Wow. That's what I want to do. Because if my life and my businesses can change, I promise you yours can too. And this is the guy that did it for me. And so I want to be able to pass that. I believe in giving flowers. Thank you. On time, bro. So that's what I want to do. Wow. Thank you. That's amazing. I'm so excited for that. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. All right. So you ready for this quick fight?

45:18Mick Hunt:I'm ready, man. Wrap it fire. Let's do it. All right. So I know you're a Caribbean influence. Yes. Who's the better cook in the house, you or wifey? I am the more frequent I am the more frequent about 95 % of the time I'm the one doing the cooking I can I also was a fan of a food network I love food network and so last night last weekend we were out and Whitney was looking at different restaurants and she said I don't even want any of this stuff because what you cook was so much better and so I like to to create fusion dishes so i think about flavors by by by country and so on saturday it was uh i called it quamfredo so it was roast like garlic roasted chicken with quamfredo sauce so italian caribbean medley there too so i i think i have the higher top level and the higher frequency whitney has the vibes whenever whitney cooks it there is more love in it than i could ever mustard.

46:25So I'll give Whitney the check on that.

46:28Mick Hunt:All right. So then question number two, what is your favorite dish that Whitney cooks? Ooh. Ooh. And she's going to hear it. Yes. So honestly, it is, she will make biscuits by hand. And so when she would make biscuits by hand, she also would pair it with some scrambled eggs where she chops up onions, tomatoes, ham and everything takes takes a lot of time and for me whenever i'm cooking i'm trying to get the like most flavor in the most efficient type of way like saving the smallest time possible but whitney would actually take a lot of time to put that together and it's always a saturday or sunday morning so i know that if we are having that it is a full family day ahead so that's my Love it.

47:17Favorite dish.

47:18Mick Hunt:Love it. All right. This one's going to be personal. Michigan or Ohio State? Oh, my gosh. Hey, hey now. Hey, listen. Listen. Listen. Listen. Oh, my goodness. We got a triple Buckeye here. Three degrees, three alumni awards. Whitney is biology and med school and residency and a doctor there. And both of my kids were delivered at Ohio State. if I had any questions of loyalty, they'd remove my degrees.

47:53I will say this. We signed General Motors and I was doing a training for them in Detroit. And I said, oh my gosh, I'm in enemy territory. So I told them, I was like, listen, as you're reading through my bio, don't tell them where I went to school. I need them to trust me first.

48:13Mick Hunt:I love it. I had to throw that one in there. I had to throw that one in there. You're walking out on stage. Who's in your ear? Is it Biggie or is it Pac? Oh. Oh. In my ear. This is going to be bad because I am not an old school rap guy. I am not. It's Bob Marley, though. I love me some Bob. I love me some Bob. All right. So what Bob Marley song in your ear then? How about that? Oh, One Love. Okay. One Love, for sure. For sure. Because it's got the levity and the warmth that I'm trying to connect to. Now, if I need some swag, there is a, what I've been doing, actually, is creating my own AI music with the exact lyrics that I need at the moment.

49:11So you can make it in, like, a minute. make it incredible. So I call it my musical medicine. So I'll go and I'll take specific journal entries and I'll take it and turn it into music and then turn it into like hard hip hop, like rap, because I need that, that swagger and attitude. But I, but I want to make sure that the message is aligned perfectly with what I need at the moment. So that is actually what I do to get into the right mindset. You just gave me some homework for the weekend, bro. Oh yeah.

49:40Mick Hunt:Like, Trust me, I'm borrowing that. I'm doing that. I'll send you the link because for me, I think about it in terms of reprogramming. So what I do is spot target self-limiting beliefs. So I'll build the arguments against the belief in the form of identity statements, who I am, what I believe and why. And then I just create a soundtrack. I'm going to listen to this until I become that person and then we'll move on. So, yeah, I'm sorry I don't have straight answers for these, but I hope they're still good. Nah, man, like that was dope. Like that you genuinely you always give me something. Yes. Now, like you gave me like real homework to go like that excites me, bro.

50:22Mick Hunt:Yes. All right. So I'm going to get you out of here on this one. As the book of Kwame Christian is being written, as the story is being unfolded. What's two words that you want to make sure in that book that define who you truly are? always evolving. Yeah. Always evolving. That's timely too. Yeah. Because for me, I wake up every morning and I say to myself, who do I want to be? And then I do whatever it takes to make sure I become that man that day. Every day I ask the exact same question. And so it leads to hyper evolution. And I just say, okay, I think about myself like a video game, you know, the creative players, you know, everybody, if they're creating NBA 2K, everybody's Victor Wim Banyama, right?

51:1599 across the board. Yes. And so I'm thinking if we have skills, mindsets and skill sets and all these things, and we can just calibrate that, why would I not make myself the best creative player ever? And in the book of my own life, I am the character that I'm always watching. And so for me, I want to watch a good movie. And so I say, okay, is this what, is this the character that I want to have right now? You see this mess on the floor? This, so the character is sloppy. You're a sloppy character, Kwame? No. And so it's funny, even this week, Mick, because I just, one day I looked at my closet and I said, is this, is this who I want to be?

51:54I've been a mess. I've been the messy roommate for years and Whitney's blown away. Now my side of the room is pristine. She's like, how do you just choose to be different? I'm like, yeah, it was time.

52:06Mick Hunt:Yeah. Good stuff. Kwame, bro, I could talk to you forever. I just wanted to personally tell you, thank you for changing my life. Thank you for changing my business. But most importantly, man, thank you for being an amazing human being, bro. Like you make it easy to follow you. You make it easy to absorb your content, your, your teachings. Just thank you for being the person you are, bro. That means the world to me. Thank you. And I want to thank you, you know, retroactively for becoming a good friend. Listeners, this is the beginning of something beautiful. So I really appreciate you, brother.

52:49Mick Hunt:Thank you. Appreciate you back. And to all the viewers and listeners, remember, your because is your superpower. Go Unleashed.