2660: Dr. Autumn Smith

19:55Autumn Smith:Yeah. And I mean, it's so consolidated now that four companies own like 85 % of the processing in the cattle industry. And so it's getting a little bit dicey there too. But what I think we need to do is go back to the family farms in our particular bio region. And I think, but I think you're absolutely right. It's not profitable. It's you make a smaller, far smaller margin on animal products than you do on something like sugar, wheat, corn, rice, and you don't get all the subsidies. You know, the government doesn't support you in the same way. All right, let's talk about regenerative farming. What is that?

20:27And why is that different than just like good farming?

20:31Autumn Smith:Yeah. So there's like three types of agriculture happening today. We know about the commercial, the conventional model where there's glyphosate, you know, pesticides, fertilizers, and a lot of animals in factory farms. That's where 90 % of our animal products come from factory farms. And then we have sustainable, and that's something like organic, where essentially you're not creating damage because we've been creating a lot of soil desertification and other environmental issues with the conventional system. But then regenerative is this third type, and it's actually to return to a higher or more worthy state.

21:00Autumn Smith:That's what regenerative means. So sustainable is like stopping the bleeding, but regenerative is actually rehabilitating the land, and that's why it's really different. It's using metrics like soil health, biodiversity, water holding capacity, and actually measuring where a plot of land is before and where it's going afterwards. And this is really important because between 30 and 60 percent of our soil has been desertified, essentially. And so we don't know the exact time frame. People estimate 60, 80, 100 harvests left. We don't know if we continue at our trajectory that we might lose the capacity to create our own food one day.

21:36Autumn Smith:and 95 % of our calories over 95 % come from the soil. When was it that we, what was it that we figured out that we could replace the soil and just get it to continue growing things, but we don't replace the minerals and the, what was it that we started to replace? It was like fertilizer, but what are we adding necessarily? NPK. Okay. Yeah. Is that what, is that okay? Yeah. Yes. Okay. So they replaced that and that allows you to keep growing plants, but they don't replace everything else. Exactly. Think of it like - So that depletes it. Think of it like that's like the macronutrients for a plant, proteins, fats, and carbs.

22:10But then we just forget about all the micronutrients.

22:12Autumn Smith:Yeah, exactly. And the microbial life. So what happens in like the rocks, the minerals are in the rocks, right? And then we have the plants, but the plants need the minerals in the rocks. And then they become food for humans and humans get access to the minerals. But it doesn't happen without the microbial life. So when we come in with pesticides and fertilizers and other agents, chemicals that are essentially killing that microbial life, the microbes will when they get carbon from the plant then they go to the rocks and then they bring the minerals and make them accessible to the plant so when we kill that microbial life basically the taxi system between the plants and the nutrients the minerals in the soil is broken so then we get nutrient depleted plants and nutrients it makes me think of it's like if it fits your macros for plants it's like you know eat twinkies eat whatever as long as it fits in your macros but we're not gonna talk about all the other things and all the other benefits that That come with all these phytonutrients and stuff.

23:03Autumn Smith:Exactly. And then it harms their immune system. So plants become more vulnerable. And then we bring in the pesticides and the weed killer. You know what I mean? It just becomes this cyclical thing. And you call it desertifying? Yeah, desertification. And that's because the soil becomes essentially dead. It goes from something that's living, more living microorganisms and like a teaspoon of soil than there are people on the planet to something that's like caked and dead, devoid of life. That's where you get that like, you see the chocolate cake soil. I don't know if you've ever seen these pictures.

23:31Autumn Smith:Or you have this like brown crumbly stuff that's just devoid of life. Now, how do you regenerate that? So how do you get it better through harvest versus just stopping the bleeding? Yeah. So animals, there's like several principles. One is least disturbance. So you want to keep a living root in the soil as long as possible. Because again, we're creating that taxi system. We're feeding the microbes. You want soil armor. A lot of times we keep our ground barren. and that leads it very vulnerable to wind and water erosion. And again, we're not feeding it. Animal integration. This is what I think is so important.

24:06Autumn Smith:Animals are natural fertilizers, right? So cows come on, they poop on the ground. I thought cows are bad for the environment. Exactly, they are. Only when you raise them in certain ways. Have you guys heard of Alan Savory? No. Oh, I got to tell you that story in a second. But essentially they act as fertilizers. They create little divots for water to pocket and to stay in the soil. Biodiversity. we've kind of separated animal and plant systems, but I think ideally we got to bring them back because you don't need all the fertilizers when the animals come and bring the nutrients back to the land.

24:34Autumn Smith:Right. And a lot of our ability to hold water in the land is because, or inability now I should say is because again, we've killed that microbial life. So is there a cycle in this, in this like season where you're like, okay, we're going to let the cows come trample all over this area and poop all over. You need a lot bigger land to do this because of, yeah, being able to kind of cycle them through? I love that question. And yes. Okay. So it's really interesting. It depends on how you do it because you'll need more land. But a lot of times these regenerative farmers find that they can actually have three to four times the amount of animals on that land.

25:07Autumn Smith:But what Alan Savory, I'm going to go, Alan Savory is a fascinating individual and he was an environmentalist living in Africa and he thought animals did lead to desertification. And so he and his colleagues made a decision to kill 40 ,000 elephants because they thought, oh, well, this is going to help the land get better. But what he found out was it didn't. It actually made it much worse. And so then he went back and looked into the research from Andrew Vassan and all these regenerative ranchers finding that it's not about the animals. It's about the way that we manage them, right? So moving animal from a plot of land to a different plot of land, you know, sometimes daily.

25:44Autumn Smith:I've had regenerative farmers move them more than once a day. Sometimes people move them weekly. it really depends on where you're living. But yeah, the animals cycle through different paddocks, they call them, and they watch, right? You don't want an animal to overgraze because then that is harmful. So when you put a cow out in a pasture or animals and you don't manage them, they will. They'll find their favorite plants. Then they can continue to eat them over and over and they can do damage to the land. But if you're watching them, managing them in what they call predator prey cycles, essentially animals wouldn't have ever gotten onto a plot of land and then stayed there.

26:16Autumn Smith:They would move because they would poop on it or they would be chased out. And so it's really just building a system that mimics that by looking at, okay, how does the land look today? And then where are we going after that? And then that ends up making the soil better than it was first time around. Exactly. Because the soil or the land needs time to recover, right? It needs that disturbance. It's like exercise, right? You guys know this. We stress our bodies out a little bit. And then in the recovery, we become stronger. And that's what adequate recovery will do to the land. And so they might be on a plot of a lot and then they'll give it lots of rest, like 30, 60, 100 days.

26:51Yeah, too. Like how some farms do it now, like when they don't have crops, sometimes they'll plant like non-fruiting plants. Hover crops. Hover crops. Yeah. Yeah. So is that a successful strategy at all or is that somewhat? Absolutely. Okay.

27:08Autumn Smith:Yeah. And especially like if you're talking in terms of like carbon sequestration, the more you have photosynthesis happening, the more carbon they're literally like sucking carbon out of the air with their leaves and storing it underground and that carbon becomes the food for the little microbes and the taxi systems that then so yes it's rehabilitates sequestering carbon it's the water holding capacity too that it's building which is really important because most of our floods and droughts it doesn't come because we don't get enough water it's also it's often because we can't hold the water we can't retain the water but when you bring that microbial life back now what about like insects and like this whole like biodiversity thing of like, uh, or, uh, ecosystem, like, like how, how can they manage that better with the insects instead of having like pesticides all the time?

27:56Autumn Smith:Yeah. So what they find is that it's just different populations come like the dung beetles. They're actually really important for taking nutrients and bringing them back. And so different types of pests or pests will arise, but many of them actually work for the system, Right. In a healthy system. Or aren't there some, too, that will like like counter or take care of like keeping some at bay? So it's like these ones live and kill and eat these ones so they don't get overpopulated and kill the plants. Isn't there aren't there some pests like that? I'm sure there are. I'm not an expert in that particular area.

28:25Autumn Smith:But, yeah, I do know that when I speak to the farmers, they say we were trained that we just needed to kill everything. And once you start interacting with the ecosystem in a different way, you realize that it's not incredibly it's not totally necessary. and that a healthy, thriving ecosystem will have lots of diversity and it won't always be destructive. Now, is it, again, are the margins smaller with regenerative farming or is it, can it be just as profitable? Like what's the deal with it? Because obviously there's a reason why less, more farmers are the way. Maybe it's education, but I'm assuming it's just less profitable.

28:58Like scale-wise, yeah. Volume.

29:00Autumn Smith:Yeah, it's really hard to take that chance and be a regenerative farmer. But like I said, once you get through that transition period, it can become as profitable, if not more profitable. Because you can have cows, chickens, hogs on the same plot of land, right? Usually we have cows, right? Or, you know, they're specializing in one particular system. Then they can have honey, right? And they're running three to four times as many animal per acre. You know, they're running larger herds. So you can get there. And I absolutely think it can be as profitable. But I'm not going to lie that there is a transition period.

29:33Autumn Smith:And you're not getting subsidies for corn and wheat. So they're kind of unplugging from a system that supports farmers. Now, we mentioned carbon earlier, and you hear the term carbon footprint. Does this type of farming produce less of that, the same, or is it better from that standpoint? Yes. Have you guys heard about the white oak pastures analysis? No. Okay. So basically down in Bluffton, Georgia, they have a farm, a regenerative farm, and they did what's called a life cycle analysis from kind of cradle to harvest, Like what is the environmental footprint? And they actually compared it to other similar proteins, you know, soy, conventionally raised beef, pork, chicken, and found it was the only net positive food.

30:17Autumn Smith:So for every pound it produces about 3.5 pounds of carbon that was actually sequestered. Then they compared it to even like plant-based burgers and found around 3.5 pounds were emitted. So he likes to joke that if for every plant-based burger you would eat, you'd have to eat one of his grass-fed beef burgers in order to offset the footprint. So yes, that was just kind of funny, which is so counterintuitive. But absolutely. And many people will refute this. But what is often missing is the accounting for the carbon sequestration. People aren't often taking that into consideration when they look at it.

30:51Autumn Smith:But there's been research out of University of Michigan, Dr. Jason Roundtree, and that analysis to suggest. Now explain the difference between things like grass fed, grass finished. And because I know there's some controversy too around that. Like if I recall, like, unless it says grass, grass fed, grass finished, then what a lot of these farmers are doing is they're using the benefits of saying I'm grass fed, but then they're still pumping them full of grains and things in the last couple of weeks to fatten them up so they can make. So explain all the difference of that and what that looks like.

31:23Autumn Smith:So as of 2016, that regulation largely went away. So no one's really ensuring that it's grass finished and all cows begin their lives on grass, right? For the first six months. So in 2016, we, so we're not like regulating that now. Not really regulating that. No. And that's really clear in a paper that came out, Bronchema 2019, I believe, where they surveyed many different American grass fed farms and they found the omega six to three ratio was like 26 to one, which is highly indicative of a lot of grain feeding all the way down to like a two to one. So yes, you don't really know, right? No one's really checking on that.

31:59Autumn Smith:As of 2016, grass-fed can mean grass-fed and grass-finished, or it could mean grass-fed and grain-finished, or grass-fed, fed distillers' grains. I've heard people going and dumping grains onto a pasture and calling that grass-fed. Wow, so how do you, okay, so as a consumer, as a consumer, how do you even protect yourself if they're not regulated? It must be third-party certification. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So tell me what they should look for then when they're buying a product. Since we now know that grass-fed could totally be grain-finished and they're not regulating it. So how does the consumer know they're getting one that's truly grass-fed?

32:38Autumn Smith:I love American Grass-Fed Association. So they certify beef and pork and I think even buffalo, bison. And so you can see they actually go in and verify. But unfortunately, there have been recent reports like the Food Safety and Inspection Service is the one who you would go to to get these sort of certifications. And what they found is that a lot of times, even they're not going on site, typically, it's just an affidavit that they're filling out. And there was one report that said something like 80 percent lacked sufficient substantiation. Some of them didn't even have applications. Some of them had applications that were only partially filled out.

33:17Autumn Smith:And so, yeah, I think across the board, it's hard to say. I would imagine this is probably one of the biggest challenges you guys would be having right now is that just because there's so many bad apples that you get lumped in potentially with some of these people. It's like, I mean, I was just telling the guys before the show, I just was sharing with Sal that my buddy and I, we were just talking about this and he's like something like 98 % of everybody that says they're, they're grass fed, grass finishes bullshit. Like it's very, very, very small percentage are actually truly up to par to what they should be.

33:47That's crazy.

33:48Autumn Smith:Yeah. It's really insane. That's why we do the third party audits and just grass fed, grass finished. But yeah, it's really, really hard to know what you're getting as a consumer. I talk a lot about that. even with cage-free and free range or Made in America is a good one too. Yeah. Made in America does not mean - Doug, look up some of - Exactly. I want to see what this looks like. Like I want to see what the certification or what does it look like on the packaging for somebody? Like that's what I'm trying to think like as a consumer. What's it called again? American Grass-Fed Association. It's got like a little circle and then you'll see like AGA and then like a little grass on there.

34:19Now that's the one you like. Is there more that do it though? Is there a couple other organizations or is that the only, or is that the main one?

34:25Autumn Smith:You know, I think in terms of like regenerative ag, there's the Savory Institute, but they're more looking at environmental footprint. So American Grass-Fed Association is the one that I would trust. Okay. Most. And I mean, sometimes if you have 100 % grass-fed and finished. Oh, there it is. Okay. That's exactly right. Yeah. I've seen that. That's the one that I would trust. That's the one you trust. That's the one I trust. And they have a focus on environmental stewardship and just, you know, I like that. What are the big nutritional differences between, you know, conventional and maybe non-conventional type meat?

34:58Autumn Smith:Yeah, we actually just did. For my dissertation, I did this project with Dr. Van Vliet. Have you heard of him over at Utah State? And this is a whole area of research. And so we took, I think, it's going to be about 200 different producers all across the country from grain feeding in a feedlot, feedlot light, you know, grass-fed, grain-finished and grass-fed, totally grass-finished, and then even regenerative meats. and then put them all together. And the main ones that we found, more omega-3s, which you would think doesn't matter, and you've heard that because it's an absolute amount, is small.

35:30Autumn Smith:But there have been at least six to eight trials showing that when you eat grass-fed beef, your levels compared to grain-fed beef, the levels of omega-3s in your blood rise appreciably, like significantly different. And I think that's really important. The other one is a much lower omega-6 to 3 ratio, which people believe can contribute to inflammation, You find about a two to one in grass fed, grass finished, and about an eight to one in grain finished, for example. A different saturated fatty acid profile. And we've all heard all saturated fatty acids are bad, but we know that's not true. And longer chain forms and even stearic acid.

36:07Autumn Smith:So the type of saturated fats are different. I don't know that. The type of saturated fats are different. Yes. So more stearic acid. Stearic acid is known as a more neutral. It's not going to raise your levels of cholesterol. And then behenic acid and ericitic acid are these very long-chain saturated fats that they've actually seen. Now, this is associative evidence that they are associated with a decreased risk of cardiovascular disease in the very long-chain form. So that's interesting if you guys have heard about pentadecanoic acid. Yeah, so that's slightly higher in grass-fed meat as well.

36:36Autumn Smith:Some people believe it's like a necessary nutrient. There's supplements now selling it. Exactly, fatty. Yep. Yep, yep. So that's a little bit higher. And then we also did mineral analysis. And so the selenium content was six times higher. Copper, calcium, and iron were slightly higher in the grass-fed beef. I eat a lot of beef, probably easily a pound a day, but closer to two probably. I know it's a big difference if I go conventional versus if I go grass-fed. I just feel different. I feel way less inflamed. My digestion's better. I just feel different. I can tell. And I think it's the fatty acid profile.

37:12I was going to make the, because I ate so much of it, it makes a big difference for me.

37:15Autumn Smith:Yeah. And there was a preliminary study too. And this is what Van Vliet's doing next. He's putting it into human bodies and then measuring the levels of inflammation. Yeah, it's really cool. So there was one in 2010 where they looked at kangaroo meat versus feedlot fed cattle. And everybody has an inflammatory response after a meal, but the degree to which that happens depends on what you eat. And it was a much larger response in inflammation when they ate the factory fed meat than when they had the leaner grass fed meat. So what he's found more recently is he did a trial where he took people off the standard American diet and put them on a whole foods diet and then also had an arm where they went to a conventionally raised diet.

37:54Autumn Smith:You know, something raised with pesticides and animal products and feedlots versus regenerative. So he saw the biggest decrease in inflammation, obviously, when you went from conventional diet to a whole foods diet. But he said there's also a trend towards further inflammation reduction from upgrading to a regeneratively raised diet. diet without. So yeah, he said definitely bigger here. So that's like big, like let's start here. That's what we typically recommend on the show. Exactly. Start here. And then this is the next step. Yeah. And if you have the resources and it matters to you and you can do that, then you probably see another effort.

38:25Was this the paper you said you've been working on? Yes. Okay. So, and is this out for people to see?

38:31Autumn Smith:It has been submitted to the Journal of Animal Science. And so yes, my dissertation, I would be happy to share with anyone that was specifically about the fatty acids, but then the mineral profiles and this, and this is only the halfway point for the project, it will continue because I think their goal is to do over 300 producers. And really this all came about, have you guys heard of the Bionutrient Food Association? So this is a big project with Dan Kittredge's ultimate goal is to create a handheld meter for people to be able to go to the store and like scan produce or an animal product. Oh, that's cool.

39:01Autumn Smith:And to see what the nutrients are because his parents wrote organic standards and he's just seen too many farmers right now. We're prioritizing efficiency and we're not looking at the nutrients. Yeah. Right. And how do you flip the incentives in agriculture and with consumer preference? So that's where this whole project came out. I don't maybe you don't know this, but I think I read that there's this new coding that they're putting on fruit that is they're like, look out for this. I think it's called appeal or something like that. Might be. Yeah. Have you heard of this? And what's the deal? I have heard about it.

39:32Autumn Smith:I don't know a lot about it. I think Bill Gates. I know. I was going to say I heard that name associated with it. I don't know anything about it. involved in well so what is it like they're gonna like a wax coating yeah it's like some kind of special coating that keeps it from going bad and they're like when you get this make sure you scrub your fruit clean or peel it and there's something like about it's just kind of sliding in have you heard that there's not a lot of publicity of people yeah maybe Doug you can look it up so I can yeah that would be so we can see what it is did you find it appeal sciences edible coatings made from mono and diglycerides yeah there you go edible coatings That's a nice way to put it.

40:11Autumn Smith:It's a nice way to put it. Made from plastic. Sounds delicious. So the first product that sold us to work with you guys was the meat sticks. Then we had the bone broth protein, which is another level. What made you go with bone broth protein? Who were your top consumers with it? And then for the record, I like to talk about it because when bodybuilders bring up proteins, I like to talk about whey protein, egg protein. But when it comes to gut health, I find it to be the easiest to digest. I mean, I could take a lot of it. I could take an 80-gram protein serving of the bone broth protein. It's like water.

40:47It's an easy way to bump your protein. I could not do that with anything else. So why did you guys go with bone broth protein? Was it because of that? Was it the gut health stuff?

40:55Autumn Smith:It was the gut health stuff, yeah. And I realized, and the more I've dug into it too, there's like, you know, not all proteins are created equal. They have a very different amino acid profile. And that glycine is really key to keeping your gut cells happy. Have you guys heard of this? It's kind of like a trigger lock, glycine is, for your macrophages. No. Have you heard this? I've become totally obsessed with this research because I just read this book called The Glycine Miracle by Dr. Joel Brind. Now, career, he's got a PhD, started really honing in on amino acids in 2007. And what he found was that basically your macrophages are like your first line of defense.

41:32Autumn Smith:When something happens, they come in, they either gobble it up, they tend, or they rend. They can come in and they can create a lot of problems. They can essentially shoot bullets, cytokines, all these things. So what determines whether they do one or the other, he believes has a lot to do with glycine. Because glycine, if there's enough, will actually allow chloride channels to open. This is so nerdy, but it matters. And it keeps the cell hyperpolarized. So when it depolarizes, then it can release cytokines and create damage. So essentially, glycine keeps those cells quiet and doing more of their tending and befriending work.

42:10Autumn Smith:And he's found, again, we know that glycine also is a calming agent in the central nervous system. But what he believes is because we're throwing the bones now in the trash rather than into our soup, like we've done historically, that most of us are glycine deficient. And there is research and experts who believe that we eat three grams a day, we produce three grams a day, but essentially we need about 15 grams a day of glycine. And many experts believe it should be at least a conditionally essential amino acid, though it is today considered non-essential because we can make it. But the amount we make isn't tied to the amount we need as long as we weigh more than 88 pounds.

42:47So conditionally essential meaning we make some, but we just don't make as much as what we probably need.

42:52Autumn Smith:Yes. So the metabolic demand after you're 88 pounds, it just shut off. And a lot of people believe this is why larger animals suffer from osteoporosis, because obviously glycine is a building block for our cartilage, our collagen, also glutathione. So, yeah, many believe at least eight to 10 gram glycine deficiency we could be suffering from each day, which is causing this kind of unregulated inflammatory response or what he would even call Dr. Joel Brind and inappropriate inflammation response. His big idea is that inflammation, like the kind where you come in and they shoot things up, that should happen with infection, but not necessarily with injury.

43:31Autumn Smith:And he says nobody really knows why when you become injured, your body would then create a situation where it'd be hard to move. He said if you're out in the wild, that doesn't really make sense, right? Maybe you can't get away. And there's one theory that it's supposed to keep it from you moving it so that it can go in and heal it. Right. But he says his big idea is, no, that's just an inappropriate response of the inflammatory system because we don't have enough glycine around. So, yeah. And glycine has so much other research on it. Right. Insulin sensitivity. There was a study in 2008 where you could take it.

44:06Autumn Smith:I think it was five gram dose three times a day in type two diabetics. And it was able to reverse, improve insulin sensitivity and also reduce inflammation without even weight loss. So, yeah, and sleep. I mean, it's crazy. Yeah, there's great studies that recently taken three grams of it before bed and empty stomach improved sleep quality. Exactly. And serotonin levels and drops the body temperature. Glutathione. Have you guys seen that trial where they did Glynac supplementation? This is just a recent trial. And I think like 24 elderly people and Glynac, so glycine and acetylcysteine, which you'd find in whey.

44:40Autumn Smith:They combine their two of the amino acids you need to create glutathione. And so what they did was they gave them this supplement and then watched many parameters of aging. And all of them, almost all of them positively improved. And so I think if we took, you know, the glycine from bone broth and, you know, the cysteine, this is the glycine is the one in shortest supply. And so could we be robbing ourselves of this glutathione and this ability to kind of create appropriate inflammatory responses because we don't have it? Well, historically, we've always eaten a lot of collagen proteins, right?

45:12Yes. we've used the bone. First of all, you would never, humans wouldn't catch an animal, cut off the, you know, the sirloin and then leave. They'd eat everything, including the bones, including everything. You'd melt it down and you eat it all. And so we just don't do that anymore. So it makes sense that we probably should add more of it to our diets.

45:29Autumn Smith:Yeah. And I think there's this big controversy around, oh, collagen, it's not stimulating muscle protein synthesis to the same degree. And obviously it's not, but I do think there are important roles around anti-aging. Listen, I'll say this. In fact, we just did an episode, where we talked about tendon strength and connective tissue strength, which is very important. In fact, oftentimes you see injuries in athletes, like they'll blow out in Achilles because the muscles may be stronger than the tendons can hold type of deal. So it makes sense that you should add it. So you can still take your whey, but also add some collagen-based proteins like bone broth to strengthen those tendons and those ligaments, especially if strength is important to you.

46:08Autumn Smith:Absolutely. I think it makes a really big difference. Now, before you started making like these products to produce and run a business, were you like experimenting at home or trying things? Like, I mean, the fact that you guys nailed it with some of these products and taste good makes me go like, you must have been trying other stuff well before this. Or did you get that lucky? What happened? No, I'm obsessed. Everything that goes on the market, I bring it home and I tinker with it and I try it. And then we got really smart and we hired two amazing food scientists. Like reverse engineer stuff?

46:37Yes.

46:37Autumn Smith:And we take every idea and then they just execute it beautifully based on what they know. But yeah, I live and breathe this stuff. It's just every product on the market is something I genuinely enjoy. What is the magic you do? Because it tastes really, the bone broth protein tastes silly good to the point where I give it to my family members. It's true now. And if this ever comes out, I'll be upset. But they're like, there's no way this doesn't have sugar. They're full of crap. I'm like, no, I'm telling you, it's like very minimally processed. Look at the bag. but it tastes so good. Is it these food scientists?

47:10Autumn Smith:What do you guys do? It is a lot of them and it's that creamy, that coconut powder and it's also a little monk fruit, right? So yeah, it's just food science. There's nothing hidden in there. But there's very minimal ingredients. If you look at the bag, it's very minimally processed. And you have to know it takes a very long time for us to get it right. A very long time and we're willing to wait because we want every product to be something that we like genuinely look forward to and want to consume everything. I also think too collagen protein in general is easier to make taste good. I think some proteins are difficult, like vegan proteins, really hard to not get them to taste like grass or whatever.

47:43So I think it's just, it's a protein that's easy to maybe flavor.

47:46Autumn Smith:And it's knowing the complementary flavors. Has that been an intentional strategy for you guys? I feel like you just like one product at a time and it's almost like a really slow process. A lot of some of the companies tend to like, wow, like all this stuff at one time. You guys have been very slow to like release one thing after another. Has that been intentional like that? Absolutely. We are perfectionists for sure. And again, we just, we, our whole family taste test. It has kind of get approval throughout. And so, yeah, we don't, it's not a volume game for us. It's quality. So, okay. Business question then.

48:16I mean, what is the indicator or marker that you go, okay, we can now do the next thing. Like, I mean, I imagine a lot of this stuff you guys doing, like I've refused to let Sal would, his dream would be for us to run a, own a supplement company. And I refuse to let him do it because I understand how difficult it is to be very, very successful. I also understand the margins. I get it. And so they're not very – a lot of people think supplement companies are wildly profitable and all this money. But it's like, no, margins are very slim. It's extremely competitive. There's all kinds of red tape. So how does one do that in your guys' situation, especially when you guys are taking the more expensive, longer route on stuff?

48:56I mean, did you guys do really well with something else? And so you had the luxury to be able to, I mean, I mean, I'm so curious the business side. About Bitcoin?

49:04Autumn Smith:Yeah, no, I wish we have bootstrapped this thing, but I think what really works is my husband is a marketer. And so his background came from marketing things online from the early 2000s. And so he knows how to find the people who are really, really appreciate our products. And then we're smart. Like we don't really do anything that we can't track, right? We're not just throwing money out here. And so we become really aware of these products are working and these products are not working as much. And so not every product isn't given the same amount of bandwidth. Okay. Right. We have our keystone products.

49:37Autumn Smith:That's where we put most of our attention. And as you've stated, the supplement market is becoming very, very, everybody has a supplement line. So we're going really hard into animal products and doing, we just built our own bone broth manufacturing facility. And so we're bringing it, we're becoming a little more integrated and we're building the supply chain because right now regenerative meats are really hard to come by. And so we're investing in farmers and their processes. And so, yeah, that was kind of like a roundabout way to say we find what works and then we really put a lot of resources into that.

50:10Autumn Smith:And my husband also is good at seeing what's coming. And we knew, just like we knew information was going to be free and we're going to have to provide a product, he now sees, okay, we've got to build this supply chain out. We've got to get this manufacturing facility up. So it's intentional in a lot of behind-the-scenes things. I have a question you might be able to answer. I got in a debate with a friend of mine over vitamin C. And they said that synthetic vitamin C, natural vitamin C, it's the same. You look under a microscope, it's identical. There's no difference. My argument was that natural vitamin C tends to come with bioflavonoids and cofactors to help you absorb it.

50:45Is there a difference between the two? Yeah. Okay, what is it?

50:48Autumn Smith:I think there is. So, yes, this is a hotly debated topic. Right. But obviously there's like dozens of compounds in a whole food vitamin C, a food, and there's one, ascorbic acid, right? So there was some research 2016 showing that you could give an equivalent dose. I think it was a thousand, a gram of ascorbic acid or a gram of Camu Camu juice, like a whole food source. And one reduced inflammation, the whole food and oxidative stress markers. And the other one didn't. now that being said i think that there can be in really high doses a a case for ascorbic acid if you can't afford you know whole food vitamin c but there's dozens and dozens of compounds all working together to do far more than raise your vitamin c levels yeah absolutely yeah yeah because you eat an orange or something with vitamin c you know there's like bioflavonoids and compounds and vital nutrients that seem to factor j absence bioavailability and higher now i brought up vitamin C because it plays an important role in collagen.

51:45Autumn Smith:Exactly. Right. So when you're taking bone broth protein, uh, vitamin C, this is for athletes. Like you want to strengthen your tendons. Uh, you give yourself their bone broth protein for tendon and ligament strength or connective tissue strength, take a dose of vitamin C with that, uh, or eat a food that's high in vitamin C with that. Exactly. To improve that. Vitamin C and copper. That's why we do the organ meats too. Organ meats are really important. Copper in organ meats are really important for collagen synthesis as well. But yeah, no, I think that there are differences, absolutely, in whole food.

52:15Autumn Smith:Just the metabolomics research that I got to do with this project in Utah State, there's literally like 40 ,000 compounds in beef. 40 ,000. And we label 13 and we track 150, but there's so much to be learned yet about food. 40 ,000? 40 ,000. Metabolomics, like amino acids and all these metabolites, all these different nutrients, all these phytonutrients. Yeah, because you just think proteins, fats, and you know. No, no, no. I think we will just continue to learn more and more. And I think a lot of these vitamin C research, they're looking at absorption and yeah, ascorbic acid is absorbed, but like what are the longterm?

52:49Autumn Smith:I think that's what the research is really missing. Like the inflammation and the oxidative stress down the line, but yeah, I think we're just going to continue. I love, I mean, this just confirms what I've been saying for so long. When we talk about this, like we, we, we act so arrogant that like we know so much. So we, we distill it down to a few macronutrients. Oh, this, it's like the MPK analogy you gave earlier. It's like, okay, we know those are the main things that make the plant grow or the body grow. Therefore, oh, forget everything else. It's like, and I think there's so much still unknown about the human metabolism that we're not even certain how so many things work together.

53:22I find it so arrogant that we get on, you know, podcasts and we write and talk about how, oh, this is the way or we know this for sure. It's like, you remember watching, there was this supplement, it's called Soylent that came out, came out of Silicon Valley. Do you remember this? and it was like for tech people who don't want to get up out of their desks just take this everything you need and you would see these people and they were gray like you'd look at them like this yeah you might be getting the right amount of calories you don't look you might be living yeah you might be alive not living yeah so what okay along those lines and is what's the difference between bone broth and collagen protein it's like i was saying collagen protein but you're but you get collagen fun bone broth what's the difference yeah so collagen if you look at it

54:03Autumn Smith:like an all-star team, bone broth. We've got many different players doing many different things. And then collagen is kind of like that one star player. So bone broth, we make it from bones and then you get the bones that contain collagen. So you're going to get the collagen, you're going to get the gelatin, but you're also going to get electrolytes, magnesium, phosphorus, minerals that are in bone too, and healing compounds, potentially hyaluronic acid, um, you know, sulfate, chondroitin, those, those are all part of bone broth, but then collagen typically comes from hides and it's, you know, it's the amino acid profile, you know, hydroxyproline, proline and glycine primarily, but other amino acids too.

54:40Autumn Smith:And usually a far more industrial process, you're going to have solvents to take a hide into a powder, as you might imagine, high heat, pressure, all of that. So what we do instead is use bones and water and time. Where do you guys get your bones from for your bone broth? Well, right now, as I said, a lot of them come from the animals because what we do with both of our businesses is we buy animals, live animals, and then we use the organs. We use the bones, and we use the meat and just the whole animal utilization. Wow. What do you do with the organs? Oh, organ complex. Yeah. Well, so tell me about that.

55:14So tell me about organ complex. What's the value of that? Why don't I just take a multivitamin if I need some of those things?

55:20Autumn Smith:Because they're the most nutrient-dense foods in the world. So Dr. Ty Beal did research back in early 2020s and found when you look at, so all these algorithms are so interesting, right? Plants are typically glorified as the most nutrient-dense foods, but that's often because these algorithms are the way they're determining the most nutrient-dense food is penalizing saturated fat or really prioritizing vitamin C, or, you know, they're just more favorable to plant-based foods. But when you look at the nutrients, most people are deficient in worldwide calcium, iron, zinc, you know, B12, vitamin A, organ meats are the most nutrient dense foods in the world for the nutrients most.

56:00Autumn Smith:And they're also the most bioavailable form. So anytime you have a nutrient in an animal form or a plant form, your body usually prefers the animal form nutrient. Well, the, all your evidence is here. If you, not saying this is ideal, but if you, if somebody said, I'll give you a million dollars to eat only one food for an entire year and not die and not become nutrient deficient. The thing you would pick would be meat. You'd have to. Yeah. You couldn't, you couldn't get away with anything else. You could eat meat and not saying it's ideal, but you'd probably be okay. Yeah. You couldn't do that with any other single food.

56:31Definitely not a plant. There's not a single plant. You would have terrible nutrient deficiencies and you die within that period of time. So that's all the evidence right there. Yeah. What goes in the organ complex? Which organs are you guys putting in there?

56:42Autumn Smith:We do heart, liver, and kidney. And then we freeze dry them because the reason we did that is because I couldn't eat organs, even though when I started to try to eat them, I felt noticeably different, probably due to the iron. You probably have heard there was a Nobel prize for the finding that beef liver could cure pernicious anemia back in the 1930s. And, and I think that's a lot of, even, you know, B12, vitamin A, the richest natural source. Pernicious anemia is when you're iron, they measure your blood. Oh, iron is fine, but you're actually, it's B12. B12. It has a lot to do with B12. So that B12 in liver, it's actually all of this B12, it's retinol, and it's copper and it's iron that all work together to improve iron levels.

57:21Autumn Smith:Because again, just taking iron isn't the same as getting iron. What's interesting about organs themselves or even supplementing with organs is that the nutrients found in that organ almost always correlate to the organ that you have. In other words, you know, heart, you know, cow heart will have high amounts of CoQ10, for example, which your heart needs. So like you have an organ that they used to call it glandular. I think it was science back in the day. But if you need, like, if you have an organ that's maybe not working so well, typically eating that organ provides maybe the nutrients you might be deficient in.

57:54Yeah. Which I find fascinating.

57:55Autumn Smith:It's amazing. It's the like cures like principle where they would eat the eyeballs. And then Vladimir Kovinsen, back in the 1930s, he was doing research for the Russian military. And he actually found that the term bioregulators, have you heard this? Yeah, exactly. So they believe that eating that organ contains specific compounds that will rejuvenate that organ. So I've always heard, oh, there's not a lot of scientific evidence for it. Maybe not, but it is a reservoir of the nutrients we need. There is evidence, but it's Soviet evidence. It's true. You can look up bioregulators. They still give them in Russia today.

58:29They still prescribe them.

58:31Autumn Smith:And people here use them, yeah. Yeah, they do. And now you see athletes are starting to use them. But the research, and you'll see this when you look it up, all the research only comes out of Russia. Okay, so I guess we don't believe it. Right. they don't have a patent on it so what's the deal super random question did uh you guys feel an uptick in business when uh liver king had his big fallout yeah oh man i don't i oregon complex is one of our best sellers and always has been so maybe maybe that's a little i just i mean i didn't think about it till we're talking right now i'm like oh i wonder if she really felt that because he's had a you know he's had like a mess oh yeah and he's in prison for We're trying to stalk Joe Rogan or something like that.

59:11Autumn Smith:And that was real. I can't, I just don't know anymore with the AI. I'm like, is that a real thing? Or because I saw him like, anyway, supposedly from his house. But yeah, so Oregon, that's always been one of our best sellers. But also a lot of people have Oregon complexes on the market these days. A lot of people are kind of finally, after 10 years of, you know, trying to encourage people, a lot of people are doing it too. But many times they're imported, you know, not always grass finish, like we're saying. So the, the label that I had you had Doug pull up so we could see what it looks like. Will you see that in a, in a grocery store?

59:45Is that you will. So some, some, some brands will actually have that.

59:49Autumn Smith:Yeah. You know, now that I think about it, probably harder to come by in a store, probably harder to come by in a store. You'd probably want to wild pastures or other business. We use AGA certification. I actually, I'm not aware of a lot of other brands that do, unfortunately. Yeah. I don't know. Well, the fact that you, I didn't, I had no idea that in 2016, they totally like got rid of it. Yeah. Yeah. They got rid of it. Cause I knew about the kind of the hustle before where the grass fed and then you grain finish it and then you can still fall into the category. But the fact that they're not regulating that at all anymore is like.

1:00:20Autumn Smith:Yeah. It's a bummer. Yeah. It's alarming. And that's the same with like, even with collagens, a lot of times collagen grass fed. I mean, I think the good news about that though is companies like yourself will win in the long run. It makes it a little difficult right now. Yeah. Okay. It makes it a little bit more difficult right now because you're going to get lumped in with all these bad apples. But sooner or later, the consumers will get smart. Because, I mean, I guarantee a bunch of people didn't know that until right now, until we just brought it up on the show. And they'll start going, oh, shit, this whole time I thought I was making a much healthier choice.

1:00:50Now I've got to go to the next level of looking for those markers. And then it'll serve you guys.

1:00:55Autumn Smith:I think it will, long term. And I think people are more excited about this stuff than they ever have been. So I think eventually. What's the consumer breakdown for Paleo Valley? Do you have more men than women? It tends to be families? It's pretty even. It's pretty even. And all across, I mean, I think more of our customers is a 40 to 65 range, but we're getting those younger generations in as well. No wonder we were. Who was originally who found it? Do you know who on your team connected us? Was it Shauna? I think it was Shauna. I couldn't remember if it was Shauna or not, but we've been working together for so long.

1:01:30I was trying to remember how you guys, I thought maybe your husband, cause he said he's the one who's always looking at and finding talent and stuff like that.

1:01:35Autumn Smith:Oh yeah. No, I think it was Shauna. Yeah. And with your consumers, are you getting a lot of people who are trying, like yourself, who are trying to fix gut health issues or is it now moved up beyond that? It was, that was initially, that was our audience and that we knew what they wanted because it was what I needed. And, but now it's becoming far more mainstream. Yeah, we've had a lot of growth recently. What are the most popular flavors of the beef jerky? Oh, original. Oh, original. It's the original and probably also the jalapeno. Jalapeno is so good. That's the best one. Justin's a summer sausage.

1:02:06Autumn Smith:Mine too. I actually, unfortunately, I can only eat the summer sausage really because I have a garlic allergy. Oh. So I can eat that one and the venison. I like the buffalo chicken one. Oh, so good. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And the venison. I love. Do you guys, are you venison? Any, any, any times you guys, have you guys tested one and then had to get rid of it because it didn't sell or didn't work? Or have you been able to stick with every flavor? The liver sticks. Oh, I know. We really want to do it. Oh, we really want to. That's tough. How do you make liver taste good? Yeah, it's really hard. We start with the primal blend in wild pastures.

1:02:40Autumn Smith:We put a little bit of liver. People were clamoring for it. My wife does that on her own. She'll throw a little bit because you can't taste it. Sneak it in there. Exactly. And, you know, organ meats are so dense in nutrients. You have to put a lot to make a difference. Yeah, it's true. And so, yeah, it's just a little pop in there and people love it. But that was another idea. Someone else is executing on that right now because we haven't been able to make it taste in a way that we thought that most people would. So is there, are there any flavors or things that you guys had to get rid of? Wow.

1:03:08Autumn Smith:We haven't yet. We've been really lucky because I think we're so slow and intentional and we taste and we taste and we taste. And our son is actually one of our biggest taste testers and he is very honest. You know what I mean? Like he doesn't like it. It's not happening. It's actually a pretty good strategy. Yeah. We've been really fortunate. Eat your food and see what it says, right? Yeah, he always does this. He's no filter. He's not going to lie. He's this. How has it been since you've healed your gut and done all this with the eating, the issues with your relationship with food? I've trained a lot of, I've trained a few dancers in the past, and I'd say those are some of the hardest demographics just in terms of like they develop a relationship with food over years that's so hard to kind of come out of.

1:03:49Like how has that been for you?

1:03:51Autumn Smith:Yeah. You know, that's such an interesting question because in my training through they taught me to smoke cigarettes, eat lettuce or whatever, take ginseng. Great advice. This is my advice. Oh, you're hungry, smoke a cigarette. No, I remember the dancers would smoke while we trained and it was kind of just encouraged. So no, it's really interesting because I think on some level, my brain was starving, honestly, for nutrients, for amino acids. And once I brought that back in, um i just feel like so much better it's not a struggle i don't have these ups and downs i don't obsessively think about food it's kind of like i eat and then i'm satiated and then i kind of go on with my day so you're not fighting this constant thought or what around food fixation it's pretty it's actually really wild how healthy you look for someone who's talked about i did not know your history uh with eating drugs all the above so for you to for you to look like you look is pretty amazing.

1:04:52Now, was there a major transformation? Like if I look back, say 15 years or however far back it goes, like, have you seen like a difference? Like just your skin health, like your vibrance, your muscle mass, like did it all evolve and change? Absolutely.

1:05:06Autumn Smith:It's like night and day. I looked like a totally different person. I was always very skinny, as you might imagine, horrible cystic acne, my poor, my poor skin. And I was always bloated. And so, yeah, over time. And I'm someone who only does moderation and moderate, you know what I I mean, I just do things full out. And so once I realized I had a choice in how I felt, it's just so easy for me to choose it every day because the way where I came from, not somewhere I want to live anymore. And so, yeah, I've just been really dedicated, but I just feel like it literally changed my life. You said you traveled with J-Lo.

1:05:40I'm glad you asked. I did. I know we had to get all the science and fitness stuff, but I do want to ask about that. I know. So let's get into that.

1:05:49Autumn Smith:So yeah, Tracy Anderson, she's a fitness trainer, as you probably know, and she hires dancers. So I was dancing in a modern company. She picked me up and then she just sent me on tour with J-Lo as her fitness trainer. Wait, you were J-Lo's trainer? I was J-Lo's trainer. Oh, wow. But for the Tracy Anderson method, right, it was a very specific type of training we were doing. Oh, so okay. So explain that to people because I actually am not familiar with Tracy Anderson. Yeah, I'm not either. Oh, you're not? No, I'm not. I'm not. Oh, and you were marginally? Marginally. Okay. So yeah, explain that.

1:06:17and what it sounds like to me is like it's like a company and then she basically farms you out to JLo then so it's her brand dance based fitness like what's the yeah this is interesting so she dated well actually married google me up some stuff bro so I can see some images why she's

1:06:35Autumn Smith:talking about it I'm so curious she's a thing I mean she's got a massive following obviously if she had JLo I'm sure yeah oh JLo Shakira Molly Sims Victoria Beckham I mean so many celebrities Wow. So anyway, basically she had a professional basketball player, husband, who had back problems. And she kept going down to Mexico and meeting with these doctors and them telling her, oh, you don't need surgery. You can completely redesign the muscular structure of your back with different movements. But you have to change them really often. This is what she told me. So she created this method where basically her job is to wake up the smaller muscle groups, which she calls the accessory muscles.

1:07:13Autumn Smith:And yeah, it is based on dance. But it's like you did at the time I was training, like 45 minutes of what she called muscular structure based on dance, just these different movements of your arms and your legs. What would you say it's close to? Is it close to like barre, Pilates? Does it look like it's ballet inspired? Mobility stuff? I mean, that's what it sounds like she's doing. What is she? Yeah, we start with like free arms where you're literally just rotating your arms in all of the different ways that a dancer would. Yeah. And then you're doing the same thing with your legs. all of these different rotations that you wouldn't, you wouldn't do a squat there.

1:07:46Autumn Smith:You would do these like, kind of like you'd go to the corner and you go out. I mean, it's just all these very elaborate moves designed to not necessarily use the main muscle groups. And so, yeah. So basically she has a lot of celebrity clientele and I started working with them and JLo and I just were doing well together. And so when she went on a world tour, she's like, Hey, do you want to come? And I had just gotten married. So part of me was like, Oh yes. Did your husband go or did he stay at home? No, he stayed at home. So you went off to go home. I did because I feel like that's just not something you say no to.

1:08:19He's a trooper for that. I'm going to have to give him a hug on the way out.

1:08:25Autumn Smith:Chaz is a lone wolf. He's like, I'm never really lonely. He's pretty cool on his own. But he did come visit me. Luckily, not luckily, I got sick when we went to France and Ireland. And so he got to come over and spend time with me. And then we took a tour. We went to South America, and then we had a little bit of a break. And then we went to North America, Canada, and then we went to the other one. So there were moments when I got to see them. When was this that you were traveling with them? 2012. So did you go to a Diddy party? Oh, my gosh. No. No. No, no, no, no, no. Great ball of questions.

1:08:57Autumn Smith:I am so upset by that, too. But no, absolutely. Was she dating you at the time? No, she was dating her dancer, Bo Castman, at the time. I worked with him, too. Oh, wow. I was going to ask about the Diddy party. so I'm okay I'm still hung up on this modality because I always I mean one the business side of me I'm fascinated with something like this could explode but you see what this is right so she has she found a way to connect and relate to all these dancers by teaching them good great joint articulation waking up all these dormant muscles in some sort of a dance like flow yeah that probably worked for a lot of people that had low back pain hip issues and they probably did it and we're like, oh my God, I feel so much better.

1:09:38And then branded it. All those complimenting movements, yeah. And then was J-Lo one of her first big people that she got or did she get someone even bigger before?

1:09:45Autumn Smith:You know what is interesting? Yeah. Madonna was actually her big one. Wow. Her first one was Madonna, but then Madonna, there was a bit of a falling out there. But yeah, so when I worked, it was Courtney Cox, it was Jennifer Aniston, it was Victoria Beckham. So you're around all these people doing stuff. Well, my first day, one of my first assignments, she's like, okay, you're going to go to Courtney's house. And I was like, oh, okay, Courtney, yep. And she's like, he lives in Malibu. I had no idea it was going to be Courtney Cox. And then she's like, oh, well, that would have been good to know.

1:10:11Autumn Smith:And then Shakira flew me down to Uruguay for 30 days to spend the holiday with her because she said she'd bring Chaz or I could bring anyone I wanted. So, yeah, lots of them. Any favorites of all that you met? I mean, Shakira is amazing. Really? J-Lo too. Victoria Beckham. I worked very closely with her. Molly Sims. Ashley Green was actually my flower girl. They're just, Kate Hudson was great. I mean, there was so many. I'm trying to use a thing. So that's interesting to me because typically celebrities, athletes, sometimes can be a pain in the ass, and most trainers don't want anything to do with them.

1:10:44Like my experience with celebrities and athletes are like the opposite. It's like they have this God complex or just, and they, I mean, sounds like you did not have an experience like that. Oh, okay.

1:10:56Autumn Smith:There were moments, you know, but I'm someone very empathetic, and I'm like, I can see why you'd be stressed right now. and why you'd be all in my bed. You know what I mean? And yeah, you kind of have to agree. Well, at least in my time, like when I was on tour, um, I was on call all the time for seven months, essentially. So that's what they do. They pay you to be like, well, I'm going to tell you when we're going to meet up and we're going to meet up. Well, this particular arrangement, that's what happened. She basically was like, I don't know what I'm going to want to work out. So just wait.

1:11:25Dude, imagine how uber, uber successful she has to be to be able to charge per like super famous people and not even have to go show up herself. Yeah. Yeah. like that's that's kind of that's like I mean to break into celebrities is already a big deal like we just had a good friend of ours Ben Bruno he trains like all probably one of the biggest client lists our other friend Don Saladino also has a crazy client list but they have to train them yeah I mean it's them training them so the fact that the fact that this chick is building something so big I can hire somebody else to go do my method which is not even like a real method is freaking pretty amazing to me so this is like wild I had no idea about her This is crazy.

1:12:05Yeah. And she's obviously, if she had Madonna, she's been doing this for a very, very long time.

1:12:09Autumn Smith:Oh, yeah. Where is she based out of? Well, she has studios in LA, two of them actually, and then in New York. But I think she's out of the Hamptons, or I'm sorry, no, Tribeca is her main studio in New York. But all over the world now. I think there's one in London and she's international. Wow. Did you like - You got it? You want to interview? I'll get you in touch. I would love to send her you. I would love to. I would love to. I would love to. interesting the fact that i didn't know i feel kind of embarrassed i should know like but i'm so fascinated someone i don't want to know the origin of how something like that gets to this level now do you have you sent some of your paleo valley products to some of these people that you've worked with because i mean i could see them being interested in in the you know products and how good they are yeah were you able to leverage your brand with any of this stuff you know what i'm kind of someone who's like i don't want to use the utilize those necessarily necessarily.

1:13:01You know, that's a, that's very Don Saladino, Ben Bruno. That's why we like those guys so much is they don't use their celebrity connections to, I was like,

1:13:10Autumn Smith:they began their different terms where I was doing something. Yeah. I just don't like people to feel like I'm, want something from them. You know, I think that's, if, if you connect with those people, you have to be like that because I think most of them, and that's why I mean, Don, they're used to people trying to leverage. Everybody wants something for them. So can you imagine? The only way you're probably going to be a true friend with them is you don't treat them like that. Yep. So I think there's been one, I think Ashley green posted something herself because I had sent her a box, but no, I don't have no expectations of them.

1:13:37Autumn Smith:And Tracy's a vegan. So you might have a very interest. I think she was at least. So yeah, definitely not. I don't think she'd appreciate it.

1:13:47Autumn Smith:Honestly, but I would love to introduce you. You'll find her. She's fascinating. And I can imagine. I can only imagine. And is she the, like the business brain behind all of it also, or she has, she partnered with Gwyneth Paltrow. And so Gwyneth was another one of her early clients and she was also my boss. And so, yes, they've kind of built it together. And only very recently, I think, has she had like a CEO. So, yeah, they've done it. And it's kind of just like grassroots in L.A. It's a big deal. Obviously. Yeah. I feel like such an idiot. Like you say, I'm like, I don't know. I don't want to ask her.

1:14:25I feel like I'm supposed to know. Well, I didn't know.

1:14:28Autumn Smith:You're not a dancer probably. you know i don't know maybe you are see him on the weekends i feel like i'm really good when i drink that's all that's all that's but i'm no i'm really genuinely curious now because i i bet i'm trying to like okay if something goes this while it's you can't just be famous you can't like it has to help people or worked really well oh it has and so and i can imagine a lot of people who suffer from chronic pain whether you're a basketball player or a dancer they don't know how to get to the bottom of it we try and teach this all the time of helping people find the root cause it's almost always because of some sort of instability and weakness somewhere and she has tapped into a way to help these dancers and athletes get there now before you did that did you dance competitive like were you did you perform on so what was that like for you yeah that was i mean since the age of four.

1:15:20I was a ballerina and then I got incorporated with this Russian Bolshoi principal.

1:15:27Autumn Smith:And he was like, Oh, I want you to come to Russia. And I decided no, when I was 16, I wasn't going to go to Russia, but I practiced ballet. And then I was in a company in college, a modern company. Then I went to LA and I danced for like a Disney artist named LaLanne. She was on that Lizzie McGuire show and just kind of got into the modern scene. And so it was, it was awesome. But by the time i was 24 i had had a 20 year career and i was kind of like oh i just really strong feet oh you guys should see it i can walk on the tops of my feet well so i have a cousin i have a cousin who she does ballet and she she was part of a big production company before she now she's married and she stopped but her she i mean she could do anything with her feet she has got the strongest toes and feet because what they do so is that one viral video possible then i saw this this girl um tiptoeing on top of bottles oh yeah like ballet yeah style on top of these like what's it what is it what was it yeah it was on it was on instagram but i haven't seen one thing that's crazy yeah i don't feel anything in my feet i have calluses everywhere and they're so strong and so worn you know kind of like my son makes fun of me but yeah i wouldn't doubt it like a ballerina you know you over time with those pointe shoes that's what you get blisters blisters blisters and then eventually callus just everywhere so i would say probably could be true the person was a ballerina you don't have any like only fans feet pages going oh god my husband's like you should do that no no i don't even if my son could see a pinky toe like yeah mainly for your son's friends no i would never want my son to be able to like I want to stick to the meat products.

1:17:11Yeah.

1:17:12Autumn Smith:Beef sticks only. Help people. Any new products that are going to be coming out? Can you tell us about anything cool? Something you might like is a sleep formula that's bone broth based. Oh, gosh. Because you know the glycine already drops the body temperature. But then we've added so many other kinds of ingredients. Chamomile, tart cherry, an actual whole food melatonin derived from tomatoes. It's really cool. And we made it. It's called strawberries and cream is where we landed. it's delicious we're always looking for sleep stuff yeah um this fall and then we have another savory flavor if you like savory because like i don't know if you guys have tried the savory flavors pretty good we have a turmeric ginger coming um make rice with it by the way you can you can put it in your rice and add protein to it it's delicious exactly protein vegetables soups as the basis yeah it's all it's good so those two are probably the closest to being done that I can talk about.

1:18:05Can't wait for Doug. Doug's always struggling with sleep. So he'll be the tester for the sleep product. We'll send it. We'll send some your way. Thank you. Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. This has been awesome. I'm so glad to see you guys. This was really enjoyable. Appreciate you guys. Thanks for coming on the show.

1:18:20Autumn Smith:Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, Check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price.

1:19:03The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a 5-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mind Pump.