2665: Why "Science-Based" Lifting Is Killing Your Gains

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0:53Adam Schafer:Way fair, every style, every home If you want to pump your body and expand your mind There's only one place to go Mind Pump With your hosts Sal DiStefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews You just found the most downloaded and entertaining podcast and fitness in the world This is Mind Pump Look, science-based lifting is awesome But if you only follow science-based lifting You're killing your gains. That's what we talk about in today's episode. Now, today's episode is brought to you by Z Biotics. This is a pre-alcohol drink. It's actually a probiotic that's been genetically modified to break down acetaldehyde in the gut.

1:35Adam Schafer:So you drink it, then you drink alcohol, and you feel great, feel way better the next day. Go check them out. Go to zbiotics.com, that's Z-B-I-O-T-I-C-S.com forward slash MindPump25. Use the code MindPump25. Get 15 % off. Also, if you go to mapsbogo.com right now, you can get MAPS Anabolic, and we will throw in for free old-time strength. So that's six months of workout programming for the price of one. Once again, go to mapsbogo.com. Here we go. These days, there's a lot of studies in regards to exercise, in particular lifting. You can find a study to tell you which rep range is the best, how much you should rest between sets, exercises, everything.

2:18Adam Schafer:But here's the deal. If you follow science-based lifting, that's all you do. You're going to kill your gains. There's a lot of value in the old school stuff and experience. You have to combine all of it to get the truth. Don't just follow the science-based crowd. You won't build as much muscle and strength as you possibly could. Oh, I like this. Spicy. I like this. I like this a lot because this was suggested by our marketing team this episode. And I'm like, I love this because there are, you do have on social media now this kind of science-based crowd when it comes to fitness. And I call them science-based not because we're not science-based or because other people aren't science-based, but because all they are is science-based.

3:02Adam Schafer:They don't have any experience training everyday people. Or very little. Or very, very little. Or maybe they've trained like a couple people like themselves. And so they live and die by the data. So every time they communicate a point, it's like, here's what the study said. Here's how you should work out. This is how the rep should look. This is the best tempo. And anybody with experience training a lot of people over years, especially decades, will laugh at it. Because oftentimes it's not the whole story. And sometimes it's just completely false. And you can look at the study and see why it's false.

3:34But you won't know that unless you have that experience.

3:36Sal Di Stefano:Now, I like having this conversation because I want to believe or I think that this was probably you at one point. Do you not feel like you came from this place? I feel like when you first started, you were probably a science dork. I think I – he reads a lot of studies.

3:52Adam Schafer:You know, I was – when I first became a trainer, just because that's all I had. All I had were certifications and courses. And so I just based my training off that. But I think you guys do, right? I mean, when you first started, you didn't have experience. No, I had no idea what I was doing. You were nothing. I lean heavy on the certification, but yeah. A lot of anecdotes. Yeah, data is great, but exercise, diet, but exercise in particular is so nuanced and there's so many variables that there's certain things you can only learn through experience and don't discount the experience of other people who've been doing it for a long time.

4:34Adam Schafer:Sometimes they'll counter the data. But if I were confronted with three or four strength coaches who've been training people for years and years and years, and they were telling me that a study was wrong, I would probably listen to them over the study because of their experience. Again, I like the data. The science is great. But you have to combine it with experience to get the full picture. And there are flaws in studies. And it's not just they're biased because some company, you know, that's what people immediately think, right? Oh, the study's fake because a company's trying to sell something.

5:08Adam Schafer:That's not what we're talking about. It's just the way that studies are put together, they can't possibly give you the full picture. Well, I think, too, just the amount of experience, it limits a lot of that experimentation, that self-experimentation. that I've noticed too, like there's another side to this on social media where people are like really anti the science-based community because of the fact that like everything is so data and they won't even venture into discussions with, you know, especially for like ranges of motion and like valuable exercises. This is where I've found there's a lot of separation with that and like things like Jefferson curls.

5:49And my view of that has changed a lot as I was a young trainer and naive in listening to a lot of the parameters of safety versus how to actually prep somebody up to accomplish a valuable exercise like that and build up their strength in that direction. And two, again, context matters and all that with athletes and with what their capabilities are and what you're actually trying to reach in terms of power output and certain ranges of motion. So there's a lot of like nuance that like science community, just so much, so many blanket statements that they're just like, here's the fine line. And we can't venture out of that.

6:27Sal Di Stefano:Well, once you've trained enough people, there'll become a time where you will actually have trained a person where the science doesn't work. Yep. And so you could have, you could have so many times. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where, I think I finally landed there where it was just like, I think that's also too, where I feel like sometimes I can go really hard in the opposite direction of like when someone starts to tout a study, it's just like, cool. Good to know, you know what I'm saying? But until that client sitting in front of me and I hear them out and I account for all the other variables, I really don't give a shit about that study because every study that is pointing me in a direction is also taking me in the wrong direction with said client.

7:10Sal Di Stefano:And so you see that enough times and you realize, okay, well, this isn't the end all be all. Yes, it's a good starting point or a great idea many times, or to give you some sort of direction. But I think you get yourself in trouble if you base all of your decisions based off of what the research and the science is. Yeah.

7:28Adam Schafer:So one of my favorite points, we'll start with kind of the first thing to consider with the data, is that oftentimes the people that are in the studies are not like you. I remember this years ago, I had this, she was a psychology professor and we were having conversations around behavior science and medical science. I loved asking her questions and I would bring up studies to her all the time. And she'd say, you know, Sal, she said, do you know what a majority of those studies are testing? And I said, no. She said, college-aged males. Yeah. Broke college-aged males. The vast majority of those studies that you quote, by the way, this isn't just fitness studies.

8:07Adam Schafer:This is all studies, all studies. If you were to look at all studies, let's say we're specifically reaching out to a particular demographic. The vast majority of studies that are done, especially on exercise, by the way, are done on college aged males because those are the people that sign up for studies. They're the ones that sign up for$25 a day so that we can beat you up with this workout routine or test out this new theory. And so if you're a 45 year old woman or you're a dad with a job and you're, you know, in kids, or if you're younger than that, or maybe you are a college aged male, but you're, you don't match like the sample size, those studies may not apply for you, to you.

8:48Adam Schafer:And so you have to be careful with that. This is especially true for women, by the way, especially perimenopausal and menopausal women who often don't get put in studies. There's very little representation. Very low representation. And so that's what I would see very often. I would see very often certain studies on things like intensity. And I'd try it to my clients. I'd be like, whoa, they did not get the result of the study show. In fact, it went in the opposite direction. What is going on? So look at the studies. And fitness studies are almost always, read them. And here's what you'll typically see.

9:18Adam Schafer:40 college-aged athletic males or 40 novice males. It's always these college-aged males that are in these studies. And, you know, that's a demographic whose body and life at that particular time in their life is just going to respond differently to exercise, to intensity, to rep ranges, to, you know, different movements. And you have to consider that when you're looking at a study, which when you train lots of people, you see that very clearly. Because I'll tell you what, the average client that you get as a trainer is not a college-age male. That's the least likely client that you get because they typically can't afford training.

9:51Sal Di Stefano:Well, and then your second point that you're about to make right now, which I think is the most important, is that these studies are ran in these short periods of time. Just windows. And I don't care. Even if your client fits the study group, we understand evolution and adaptation. And what happens over time is you evolve and you adapt. And so, therefore, it changes the variables of what went into that original study. So even the client who matches this person perfectly and this study shows that this is what happens or this is the best way to do X, Y, and Z, well, that's currently at the state where those people are all at that moment.

10:32Sal Di Stefano:Take that out nine months, a year, two years, and that changes a lot because of adaptation. And when we talk about training, since that whole process of building muscle and burning body fat is getting the body to adapt, that's such a key variable. Let's say, just to give people an example, we found out that we study these three groups of people and this rep range is the best for building muscle. Well, that's based off of where they're currently at. you take those same exact people extended out nine months and the, the, the rep range that was worse for them now becomes one of the best for them because their body's now adapted.

11:16Sal Di Stefano:And, and, and that, that works for a lot of different things. And so that's where the stuff like this is like really, really tough that you have to understand how to read between the lines.

11:24Adam Schafer:That's a great, a great example. A lot of studies, there's some studies that counter this now at this point, but at one point all the studies showed this and still I would say majority of studies show this, that the muscle building rep range, right? The hypertrophy rep range, they would call it, is between eight to 12. Now the problem with this is that just because of the way studies are funded, it's so challenging to run. It'd be so difficult to do a three-year study on workout programs. If you took three groups of people with 30 people each and you followed them for two years, that would cost so much money.

12:00Adam Schafer:It would just, it wouldn't be feasible. So they're 12-week studies. They're 16-week studies. And then they'll compare a rep range of 1 to 5, 8 to 12, and then let's say 20 to 30. And what they'll find in that study is, oh, 8 to 12 built the most muscle. Well, here's what we know, just to back you up, Adam. Stick to a rep range for too long. However great it is, at some point in your training, it stops working as well as it used to. You do. And one of the best ways to get out of it is to go in a different rep range. Right. But you wouldn't see that in a 12-week study. No. You would see that in a two-year study.

12:31again which they're not going to make because they can't get funding for something like that

12:35Sal Di Stefano:just it just it would be ridiculous well another great example of this also is when we see this comparison of like a leg press and a squat and in a short period of time the strength gains and the muscle building that you can see done in a leg press is really close to like what a squat is in a very small window extend that out over a year two year or three year and you would start to see that gap widen because of how difficult it is to perform a squat and all the variables that come with that versus sitting on this track that's very easy for someone to get good at. It takes longer

13:07Adam Schafer:to attain the skill. Right. In other words, you could sit, you could take somebody who no injuries, you know, college age male, whatever, and you can have them, uh, drive a leg press with good intensity very quickly. It's real fast. It's a real short learning. You can jump right in and go for it. A barbell squat, uh, is a very complex movement. Unless you've been practicing it for a couple of years, there's a long learning curve with the barbell squat. So in a short period of time, a leg press might actually outperform. In fact, there are studies that show that a hack squat will outperform a barbell squat for quad growth for over a 12-week period.

13:43Sal Di Stefano:And people in some of the fitness community get that confused that they think it's a superior movement because of a study like that. And that's not true. No. It's because you're looking at it in a six-week period of time.

13:54Adam Schafer:But you keep going, keep going, keep going. as your skill develops over a barbell squat, which requires far more skill, far more mobility, a better connection than a hack squat or a leg press, then you'll start to see the squat start to take off and continue to build and build and build, whereas the hack squat and leg press start to become more limited. But you won't see that in a study because, again, studies are done for 12 to 16 weeks. So, again, studies aren't run forever. So the only way to know this kind of information would be a trainer or coach who's trained lots of people for years and years and years.

14:30Adam Schafer:And this is what you see when you train people for years and years. I could throw a client on a leg press, we'll get some great results. But if I get that client to learn how to squat, which is going to take three months, maybe six months, and then we start squatting and then we keep squatting. I train that person for three years, that squat produces returns time and time again. Whereas that leg press have to move from that at some point because it stops producing those returns. Yep. Next up is they don't consider human psychology. This is, by the way, this is the most important thing to consider when it comes to exercise.

14:59Adam Schafer:The biggest problem with exercise is not the programming, the exercises, the reps. The biggest problem is adherence. Yep. Okay. It's how are you going to do this? That is literally the biggest thing. If we can solve that right there, we have solved the fitness epidemic, the problem with poor fitness and health. We've solved it. It's not, again, the programming. It's not the exercise. It's not what the best rep range is. How do we get people to keep doing this forever? When you sign up for a study, you're doing what they're telling you to do. You're there for 12 weeks. You're doing it. What they're not seeing is, are people going to do this?

15:35Adam Schafer:Do they like it? A good example is if a client asks me, Sal, what's the best form of activity if I just want to be active? I'm always going to follow it up with, what do you like doing the most? Yeah. Because cycling may be way more effective of an activity for fitness and health than, let's say, salsa dancing. But if you tell me, I hate cycling, I love salsa dancing, that's the one I'm going to tell you to do. Do the one that you love. And they just don't consider human psychology. And human psychology is very complex. And, again, you get a lot of insight into this when you train people for years and years and years.

16:11Adam Schafer:And I'll give a great example. when you first get a client, what they're really concerned with initially is results. I want to get results. But if I'm going to train this person for five to six years, are they going to get results for five or six years? Well, no, that's not how the body works. How do I keep that person consistent for five or six years? If I'm a trainer and I find stuck on results, trying to get your results for five to six years, I'm going to lose you after a year. Because what that's going to turn into is me hammering you. We trying to figure out a way to drive you and motivate you.

16:38Adam Schafer:What could you possibly do? It's just not going to happen for the average person. I can become a fitness fanatic in that sense. Most people won't. Human psychology is the most important thing to consider. And by the way, studies on human psychology, because someone may say, oh, well, let's look at studies on human psychology. Those are the least likely studies to be duplicated and replicated. So if you look at all the human psychology studies, about 80 % of them are never able to be replicated, which basically means you can throw them out the window because human psychology is so

17:07Sal Di Stefano:complex whenever i think about this point i always remember uh talking to clients about swimming swimming is like one of the best forms of cardio when you think of like the risk profile of it the amount of calories you burn it's amazing it is one of the best but it's like so and clients i'd had clients that would come to me because they read some article or they heard that and then ask is this true like yeah it's totally true but do you have a pool no but my local rec center does It's open from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. And like, does that fit your schedule? And is that it's like, I mean, yes, it is. But swimming occasionally is not better than you walking every day.

17:43Sal Di Stefano:That's right. 10 ,000 steps. And so you have to factor that part in. It's like it doesn't matter that that form of cardio burns a fraction more calories or is a little bit less risk or whatever the profile is that makes it superior. If they're if they can't adhere to it and can't do it consistently. So you have to always factor that in.

18:03Adam Schafer:That's right. Next up is that great science-based programming may simply be inappropriate for you. And I have a great example for this. If I were to look at all the studies on cardio for fat loss, for performance, for time invested in ROI, right? Return on investment. Period, end of story, on paper, high intensity interval training is superior. It's the most superior form of cardio on paper. now ask me how appropriate it is for me to apply high intensity interval training to the average client it's almost never appropriate it's almost never appropriate unless i have someone i've been training for a while who's already really fit they don't have any joint problems stress looks good then we're going to do high intensity interval training you know what's usually appropriate for most people walking walking on paper 20 minutes to hit cardio versus 20 minutes of walking hit cardio is going to blow it out of the water fat loss blow it out of the water for performance and stamina and endurance and muscle preservation, all that stuff.

19:00Adam Schafer:But for most people, HIIT cardio is way too stressful, way too hard, actually sends them back. Injury risk goes to the roof. It's just simply inappropriate.

19:09Sal Di Stefano:I always think about the studies that we have to show how great training to failure is. There's all kinds of research to show how much muscle gain you get by training to failure. But the truth is 90 % of my clients should almost never be training there if ever, and it's maybe a fraction of their time, yet everybody hears about that. And then what do they go do? They end up applying that. And again, it really depends on where that client is at that current moment. That client is, we're still working on their sleep patterns. We still aren't hitting macro, hitting our macros consistently. We're all over the board, calories up and down.

19:41Sal Di Stefano:It's just like, man, you trained a failure with all that stress and not getting what the body needs. Like what a terrible idea.

19:48Adam Schafer:You see this often on social media where you'll get the scientists, really smart people too. People that I really respect, I love their content. You just, they've never really trained a lot of people. Good example, Dr. Rhonda Patrick, love her, love her content. But when she starts talking about exercise, like immediately, I'm like, you have not trained a lot of people because she recommends high intensive internal training, train to failure, like intensity is what produces great results. And it's like, if you take a hundred everyday people who want to get fit, you're lucky if probably 20 or 10 of them can do that and it's appropriate for them.