2667: The Truth About New "Magical" Muscle Building Drugs & More With Dr. William Seeds

28:09But it's a symptom you're treating. Yes. The serotonin, the dopamine, the norepinephrine. that's downstream of what's happening yeah there if you're working upstream you're gonna fix all those problems and what we haven't talked about is as all this stuff is happening there's structural problems that happen too in the cell walls phospholipids fatty acids cosmologens all these things start changing and so you lose fluid you you lose the the fluid state of the cell membrane

28:42Dr. William Seeds:which um that means that you can't get things in and out of a cell quite well yeah and receptors don't work as well wow um but exercise increases like the production of plasmologens um it's just it's just interesting that exercise you go back to exercise and it does all of these things to work in to have everything work in concert and like you said like you brought up creatine And creatine is the most misunderstood supplement, I think, that's out there that is so valuable. Oh, yeah. Because it's a real buffer. It's a metabolic buffer that, you know, creatine is basically making, you're taking creatine to build up your phosphocreatine.

29:32Right. So that your phosphocreatine is like the battery waiting to be used because that phosphocreatine can be broken down into creatine. Right. I mean, you can transfer that phosphate group to an ADP to produce ATP. So it's a really quick way when dysfunction's happening, you know, why you can build up your ATP reserves real fast when you need them. And it's an essential thing that you have to have built up and available to be used. And that's something people don't understand, and I don't think they understand that in states of issues with the brain, that may be where – that is an area where you want to use higher levels of creatin, you know, because you're going to be having bigger demands for it because of the ATP changes.

30:35And you can go up significantly. But the other thing people don't understand is the importance of creatine and methylation. And that's the, so your body. Is it a methyl donor or is it just reduce the amount of methylation that needs to happen because it's. It's not a methyl donor. So creatine, when you make creatine in your body, you make usually like one to two grams a day of creatine.

31:04Dr. William Seeds:Just from amino acid. Yeah, from arginine and glycine, you make creatine. Right. And so when you're making creatine in the body, you make it through the kidney and the liver. And to do that, that takes up half of your methylation possibilities. You use up half of your methylation to make creatine. So when you supplement, you've got all this available for other products. Available, exactly, to use for your neurotransmitters, for your detoxification. This is why all the brain benefits you hear talk about now. Especially for people with the MTFHR gene variant. I think I'm saying it right. Is that right?

31:53Okay. So I have that. Well, it doesn't necessarily mean, so that's the other thing. When people say they have a mutation, it it's very it it's only when you're met when you're in a bad state that it may be a problem got it it's like everybody says well you all need to be methylated you need to take all these things you don't need to do that it's a very small percentage but but it is there and you have to recognize that in people that let's say you were you had you were metabolically challenged or you had some viral infection or you got a head injury. Or a head surgery or something like that. Yeah.

32:35Well, then you got to pay attention to it because it could be affected. So could you do some things to make methylation better to protect yourself?

32:44Dr. William Seeds:Yes. Yeah. It's funny because I've been taking creatine nonstop since I was 16. Not for the longevity benefits. I was going to say, I thought you were like, no. No, no. 16-year-old Sal was not thinking about longevity. He was just thinking about getting big. well it does it has that aspect for muscle for energy right yeah but it also is an osmotic yeah um a player as far as it it pulls water into the cell yeah and makes the cell more swollen where it's more effective yeah yeah yeah that's a big thing yeah so i have a question uh with peptides that i've been thinking about for a little while because we produce and make a lot of these peptides.

33:24Dr. William Seeds:Now I know what happens with a lot of things that the body naturally makes. If you were to supplement, uh, or use exogenously, you tend to have a negative feedback loop, right? If I take testosterone, my body produces less testosterone. Correct. If I take thyroid, I produce less thyroid. Correct. Is there that risk with peptides? If I take BPC, will my body stopped making its own BPC and am I okay no there is no wow no there's no negative feedback from uh there the only thing there potentially can be our receptor desensitization okay so down regulation of receptors yeah with certain with certain peptides but no that doesn't that's that's one of the issues the body's going to use it or it isn't if it needs it got it it's it's like it's like okay good I've got the signaling I'm gonna the cell's gonna decide how much do I need to take to get back to what?

34:20It's that cellular intelligence of homeostasis, the yin and yang. That's the beauty of peptides. Is there a difference, in your opinion, then from either between the naturally occurring peptide and then what we do sometimes, which is we take a fragment of it, and I guess you would call it a synthetic peptide. An example I would give would be like thymus and beta versus TB500. TB-500 being a fraction of the whole thymus and beta peptide. Is there a difference? Is one better than the other? Or is it just based off of application, what I need it for? I don't know where to start with that. One of my, how do I say?

35:08An old friend made that name up. TB-500? Yeah. You know the guy that made it up? Yeah. You know everybody. And then gave it to a fragment so that it could be, it was first using horses and then.

35:22Dr. William Seeds:Oh, well then of course we're going to use it. But so the fragments, the thymosin beta four, there's a couple of them. They don't have the same effect as the true peptide itself, the full sequence like thymosin beta four. So it may be more, and it's an immune metabolism type of peptide, thymazin beta-4. That's why it's so effective.

35:55Why a peptide is effective is because it has many pathways. Now, by taking a fragment of it that may be more anti-inflammatory, I have nothing to do with modulating the immune system. Got it. So you get less of the effect. Well, that's not the purpose of what thymus and beta 4 was for. It's to make them work together so that you can control more of the tissue healing or the appropriate laying down of collagen in a parallel fashion. and not in a parallel fashion with the cross-bridging that you needed to have appropriately to mimic anatomical collagen in tendons and ligaments. So you're really, you're not, and the other question is how well do these fragments work?

37:02you know and i'm not gonna i don't be careful with what i say but thymus and beta 4 is the is the real deal okay quite uh so personal question uh-oh i've used i've used the combination of bpc 157 and thymus and beta many times yes uh in the in the in the muscle building space

37:23Dr. William Seeds:they call it the wolverine stack that's a great a great way to sell it oh my god i know you know Now, here's what I noticed. This is what I was going to ask you. Yes. I expected better healing, maybe faster recovery, gut health improvements. I expected all that. But what I also saw was I got leaner, it felt like. And this is a bodybuilding term. Muscle quality looked different. I had this grainier, harder look to my muscles and a little bit leaner. Is this because of upregulation of growth hormone receptors? Is it because I'm recovering faster from my workouts? Or am I just imagining this? No, there's synergistic effects of both of those.

38:12But remember, thymus and beta-4 is also an immune modulator too, as I mentioned. And it's also a senomodulator, meaning we have senescent cells that build up in all of us. And depending on how you're, and especially after injury, you need senescence to stop inflammation when it needs to stop. But if you have too much inflammation or if you have too much senescence, then it alters how muscle can rebuild after training and so forth. And so thymusin beta-4 plays a really great role in how it works on modulating senescence and the inflammatory type of responses to interleukin-1 beta, the tumor intercosis factor alpha, and some other, some MCP1 and some other signaling agents that work against, that everybody has, but work against appropriate muscle building and satellite cell activation.

39:22And so by understanding why you knew you were using it for senescence and for all these other things, you were producing, you were responding better to your training.

39:36Dr. William Seeds:That's right. Okay. And there are some other epigenetic issues that you're going through that have a, and that do have an effect on methylation, on histone and DNA methylation and demethylation, but that's a lot further. It goes further. Yeah, no, that's one of my favorite peptide combinations for just athletic performance. It's amazing. All right, I want to bring up the monkey study. Oh my God, we're going all over the place. Yes, we are. No, I got to bring this up. because this exploded. We only get you every once in a while. You know what I'm saying? This is all built up for us. This exploded on the fitness scene.

40:18Dr. William Seeds:So I'll go over the kind of what they did in the study. They took four groups of monkeys. I think they were chimpanzees. And the first group was natural, nothing. The second group, they put on some agglutide, a brain named Ozempic for people who aren't familiar. The third group went on Ozempic plus a myostatin inhibitor. And the fourth group went on Ozempic plus a myostatin and active in A inhibitor. And here's what they found. All of them in a calorie deficit. Sure. The first group lost 400 grams of fat, but also 15 grams of muscle expected, right? The metabolic adaptation is your, in a calorie deficit, your body will pare some muscle down.

40:57Dr. William Seeds:Yeah. The second group that just took the Ozempic lost 700 grams of fat. So almost double fat, but also lost 100 grams of muscle. Now, of course, they're measuring lean body mass, so there could be some fluid loss with that. but lost a lot more fat. The third group, this is where it starts to get weird. Yeah. Ozempic plus myostatin inhibitor. 1300 grams of fat. Yeah. So more than three times as much as the natural group. Gained, no, only lost 15 grams of muscle. So they only lost as much muscle as that first group. Here's where it gets really weird. The fourth group lost 1400 grams of fat. So a little more fat.

41:36Dr. William Seeds:Gained 400 grams of muscle. Sure. And none of these monkeys were lifting weights. So the fourth group - And in a deficit. All in a deficit. So they put them on this, they put them on semaglutide, myostatin blocker, active and a blocker, and they literally lost the most fat, but simultaneously, which is almost impossible to do, gained a tremendous amount of muscle. This is measured in grams, but this is huge considering the study. is this the miracle drug combination is this the fitness in a pill uh or is there more to this is there something that we need to be careful for around you put me on the spot um that these are major i mean those are amazing changes those those are you know to me just hearing that i'd say if I didn't maybe know some of the things I know, I'd say that really is that that's groundbreaking.

42:36And there's so many other places that could go, right? It's not only in that the world of retaining muscle, but with with people who want to just improve muscle instead of, you know, using steroids, things like that. And so I could see how that could be very compelling. But I don't want to be the bearer of bad news. I just want to give people maybe some other things to think about. Could I approach it that way? Yeah. So we have to be careful. We've been studying myostatin inhibitors for a long time. Yeah, at least 20 years. For more focused on disease states like muscular dystrophy and things that we really need to, we're trying to help.

43:27And what we've, I think first you have to understand, you know, myostatin is something that over time we lose the control of as we age. We have less ability to inhibit it. Like the way we can inhibit myostatin right now is with exercise.

43:52Dr. William Seeds:Right. That inhibits myostatin. It's a controlled way. It's a way to intermittently turn off myostatin and have effects on active NA and what it does to the active in a actually works, um, on a, what is it? It works on an active in, uh, active in type receptor receptor type to be is, is what it works on. And, and so there's kind of two ways to go about really inhibiting the effects of what you think myostatin does. There's two ways to go. That's why that increase was so significant because they used two different compounds, right? There were probably monoclonal antibodies or something directed towards that.

44:57But so I guess the point I want to get to is maybe the easiest way to think about this too is to make people who are unfamiliar with this myostatin myostatin thing i i think everybody's seen those uh those belgian cattle that are dog they call them the double muscle cattle belgian blue bull i think what's it called i think it's a blue bull belgian blue bull belgian blue yeah and if you haven't seen i mean if people haven't seen the

45:27Dr. William Seeds:pictures of them it looks like a bowl on it looks like a pro bodybuilder bull well they have so those cattle have a, they have a mutation in their myostatin gene. Yeah. Genetic mutation. This is through breeding or whatever we've done. And the only reason that they're still around is because we are helped. We're actually, man has gotten involved in keeping them alive and letting them continue to evolve or else they probably wouldn't be around because of this. There's so many problems associated with that type of muscle. God, what do you mean by that? Because obviously we're making them because they're making more meat.

46:10Exactly. So it's like, oh, cool. Here's a bowl with twice as much meat. So imagine, well, so this is, let's, let's just start with, this is muscle that is inefficient. This is muscle that is made that is, you're making so much muscle that let's say you build muscle up. I think you could go back and look. Statistically, I think it's like a 20 to 40 % increase in muscle mass. But what you don't see is you don't see a 20 to 40 % increase in strength or efficiency of the muscle, meaning you'd expect more muscle mass, you'd expect to have that same increase in strength, just like you would build - And metabolism and other things too, right?

46:58Absolutely. Let me add to that real quick. I'm just gonna just real quick insert this. The data on strength and its relationship to longevity or mortality, like a grip strength test. whenever we connect muscle to health, what we're really looking at is function because strength is actually a stronger correlate. Not muscle, not how much muscle you have, but strength. So when we see more muscle, the reason why that typically relates to better health is because it means more function. Correct. Yes. So in other words, this is just more, but not the same. It's like dumb muscle. It's like weight. So what it's doing is, So when you, do you want me to get technical?

47:41Go for it. I'll stop you if it gets too weird. All right. There's so many places to go. So if you're losing, if you're all of a sudden adding muscle without any mechanical stress or load, and it just becomes muscle, you've lost the evolutionary aspects of how we build muscle. So what is that all about? Well, that's about how you have to also improve mitochondrial function. You have to increase mitochondrial biogenesis. You have to have mitochondria that correlate with increased muscle. That's why working out is so important because we're improving mitochondrial biogenesis. We're improving cytochrome function of the mitochondria.

48:36We're improving ATP production for that added muscle. So imagine you're putting in all this muscle, but you're not producing the energy that muscle should be producing. Is this going to produce bigger, more muscular people who have more symptoms and ailments closer related to obesity? Absolutely. Of course. The way we started this conversation was talking about things like anxiety health and how much exercise helps. Imagine you give people the ability to put the muscle, which is most what people are going to the gym for. They're looking for the side effect of the... Right. But they're not going to reap any of the benefits of all those things that we started this conversation about.

49:17Dr. William Seeds:30 pounds of muscle this way, it's like you're 30 pounds of obesity in essence. That's a great way to look at it. And it's absolutely true. It's nice looking fat. Well, it looks good and it's supposed to be good, but it's actually not good. And it's actually, it's putting demands now on the body that it didn't have before that it has to meet. Your body didn't adapt to - Without more efficiency. Well, what happens, so you have two muscle types. You have type 1 muscle, which is the endurance muscle that has a lot of mitochondria. Well, when you actually inhibit myostatin and chronically inhibit it, because that's what you're doing with these studies is you're chronically inhibiting myostatin, you're actually also affecting even that type 1 muscle.

50:10You're decreasing its oxidative ability. Wow. Absolutely. We were, this has already been proven aspects of, this is all cellular medicine that's already known. Okay. So, so number one, that's occurring. Number two, you're, the only thing you're really doing is, is you're building more type 2B and type 2X type of fast twitch muscle, which is more glycolytic. So you're producing more glycolytic muscle when what do we want with mitochondrial efficiencies and what do we want with real good training? We want more aerobic type of muscle that isn't glycolytic, meaning It's only using glucose and producing lactate and increasing lactate production because that's all it's going to be utilizing.

51:09It's not going to use oxidative phosphorylation. So you're not getting fatty oxidation of fat, beta oxidation of fat. You're not getting efficiencies that training does, that real strength training builds more of that type 2A fiber. You're converting type. The key to efficiency and training is converting type 2B to type 2A, where you get more mitochondria, you get more endurance, you get more resilience, you get less fatigue. So this type of muscle you're making is less resilient, more fatigue-creating. It doesn't produce as much ATP because it's got this inefficient way of—it can only use glucose.

51:55It can't use oxidative phosphorylation. So you've built this inefficient muscle that's working against you that creates what? It leads to insulin resistance. It leads to all of these - We're going to have obese, muscular people. Well, we already know it. It's what's going to happen if you're - This is so crazy. Well, these are pathways. These are things I don't have to, you don't have to speculate. this is real stuff. I mean, this is real science. So you got to really start thinking about, here's the other thing. Oh my gosh, we should bring this up. So myostatin, the question should be, well, how do they make this muscle so fast and so much?

52:46It's because it activates the satellite cells like massively to go in and start, you know, which you have, the only way you can activate your satellite cells is between the sarcoloma and the basal lamina in the muscle fiber, you know, to then transform into new myotubules or myofibers, right? So myostatin inhibition causes this massive release of satellite cells, which you utilize every time you train, right? And so imagine with this massive release, you're depleting yourself of the satellite cells because you only got so many, okay? So you're depleting yourself. So moving on from that, continuing to train or injury more so injuries you're going to have a a blunted response because you're not going to have that status satellite cell activation that you you need to have downstream cast effects of this is going to be wild the the the example i'll give is when you look at because we've had belgium blue bulls for a while we bred them this way we didn't know what was happening we just bred them this way belgium blue bulls are not stronger and they're not used for work because they fatigue faster.

54:11This is a fact. You can look it up. I'm just telling you the basics. If Belgian blue bulls with that much muscle were so much stronger with more work, we would use them for those jobs. Instead, what we do is we just use them for meat. Correct. Because it's more muscle. Like I said, we're keeping them around because evolutionarily, they wouldn't survive. They would just go. Wow. But the satellite thing, I'm just thinking about this. The satellite cell stuff is really significant because you need that. So satellite cells are very important in also self-renewing. Okay. They need to be quiescent, meaning they need to be in a metabolically, if really good state.

54:54And that's how then they can replenish. When you work out, you have some that go and make more muscle and then you have some that replenish. So you're replenishing. When you're on a myostatin inhibitor, you're not renewing satellite cells. Doesn't happen. That's significant. That would be in my mind, it would be like, okay, how does this make sense that I'm doing something that I'm depleting myself of these satellite cells that I'm eventually, as I get injured or I'm still working. Let's say we're talking about people that aren't even training right now. Let's say you go into training. Watch out because you're going to get hurt.

55:37You're going to have lots of problems. And that's what happens.

55:41Dr. William Seeds:Well, I was just going to ask you, because I'm trying to put myself in the mind, which isn't hard for me, of the meathead listening right now. I was like, I just want to get bigger. I just want to get bigger. Now you're saying all this. Sure. And I understand that. Here's my response to you. Okay, well then, what if I took them and then worked out? That way I could train that new muscle and make it healthy. Would that offset what we're talking about? And that's a great question, and the answer is absolutely not. Wow. No way around it. You can't get around it. You can't, let's say I even wanted to use peptides to, so let's back up with that and just understand.

56:24This is even a worse problem than as I start thinking about it and we start talking more, I think further and thinking, look, look at the people that are going to be utilizing these, this combination of whatever. And or people that are most people already have some compromise of the mitochondria to some degree as they're aging. And is there, especially if you're trying to use that to build muscle in older people or, but even people that are younger that are going to use these, they, you know, let's say they have some compromise somewhere. You're in a worse state already with the mitochondria and you're going to put it into another, you're going to put it into a worse state with that.

57:10Now, but, but can you, can you make the mitochondria better and then be ready for this? The answer is you can't.

57:17Dr. William Seeds:Wow. So it's like, okay, I'm in this compromised state. I've got extra weight on my body that is muscle, but it's not really. Now I'm going to go stress it with exercise to try to offset it. But the problem is my body can't adapt to the stress very well now. Correct, because you've got something that's so phenotypically strong. I mean, you've just changed the dynamics of the satellite cell that you're not going to change back. You've lost the ability to produce things like PGC-1 alpha efficiently.

57:53and you've lost the ability also to bring back that homeostasis of AMPK and mTOR. You're going to stay in this mTOR dominant state that you don't want to be in. You want it to be pulsed.

58:11Dr. William Seeds:Could this be, because mTOR is an interesting signaler. Yeah. It's often implicated. Or pro-cancer? Yeah, I was just going to say, it's implicated in cancer. A lot of people misunderstand it, right? Done healthy, raising mTOR through exercise. But in an artificial way like this, I would think it would put you in a more vulnerable state. Would this increase risk of cancer, potentially? So anytime you have an offset of AMPK and more mTOR, the answer is absolutely it can. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but can it happen? Absolutely it can, depending on you can have mutations of certain genes.

58:49So, oh, no, this brings up something really important, actually. Let me back up a little again. What this also does is what myostatin inhibitors do is they increase the P53, P16, P21, which are cell cycle controllers that will force a cell into senescence. So actually myostatin inhibitors, they force more cells to be senescent cells.

59:26Dr. William Seeds:Oh. Yes, absolutely true. So cancer risk goes up. Well, yeah, so you can get, so senescence can lead to oncogenic senescence. So that can be there, but you can get muscle cells. So you can get muscle cells and satellite cells that turn into senescent cells in muscle. I mean, it's endless here. if we go down all these pathways, if I keep talking to you guys, you're going to keep bringing us. It makes me think of like, I'm just thinking of a future where it looks like people are wearing muscle suits. Like if you put on a fake muscle suit that looks real, it's like, oh, you look jacked. In reality, no, you're just walking around with 30 pounds of extra dead weight, except worse, this is actually, again, probably going to be more like obesity than it is having more muscle as a result.

1:00:14Dr. William Seeds:Purely cosmetic. It just doesn't make sense to me. The reason why I was so excited to talk to you about this today is because a lot of the things you're talking about is going to take time for it to unfold in people's books. Oh, my God. So the studies you're talking about right now are probably going, there's probably some in clinical studies right now, I'm sure there are, that have looked. I can't recall the data there. I try to stay up with it. But I kind of when I saw that, I just ignored it and said, this can't go very far because they're going to figure this out. But it hasn't. It's actually escalated.

1:00:54And I think, you know, and I mean, I'll listen to anybody if they can explain to me why I'm wrong. And I don't think, I just don't think that's possible with what we understand. And if you just take the example of those double muscled Belgian cattle, they're just perfect example of what's happening, you know, with myostatin inhibition. And then if you, so what I don't like what you said is that's super powerful is when you take an active A inhibitor and a myostatin inhibitor together. Well, that just raises the game.

1:01:42Dr. William Seeds:You've just taken the brakes off completely. Oh, my gosh. You're blunting injury repair. You're creating a mitochondrial dysfunction beyond that you're never going to get away from. I mean, these are all... Now, the interest in these compounds has exploded because you're right. We've known about... I remember first reading about myostatin inhibitors in bodybuilding magazines 20 years ago. the interest has exploded recently because of the just the amount of investment that has gone into glp1s yeah because of what they do for things with like obesity in particular one of the side effects being obviously if you don't eat a lot of protein if you don't lift weights you're going to see muscle loss and so of course predictable they're like well how do we fix this other symptom of using a glp1 now you're seeing lots of interest in these myostatin inhibitors i think that's probably why there's so much interest now or maybe money being invested.

1:02:39Yeah. And I think they've jumped a little ahead of themselves because you got to be, I think they got it. I mean, I've got, I'd have so many questions for them that you'd have to, no matter how good you make that look at the beginning. Um, there's just so many things that aren't, that don't make sense. I mean, I don't want, you know, another thing people don't realize that on a GLP one muscle, the first muscle you lose anyways is inefficient muscle. I mean, that's something people don't realize. Interesting. So sometimes that's a good thing, like to get rid of that inefficient muscle. And remember, you're working on metabolism.

1:03:25You're working on efficiencies and flexibility of the cell. You're making that cell better at making muscle eventually. And so some of it you may lose, which is inefficient. And then, but it's the approach you take. That's why I've always said, I mean, people just haven't really utilized this peptide right in how you can actually keep people. you can do a pretty damn good job in maintaining pretty good muscle mass and still building muscle.

1:04:05Dr. William Seeds:Yeah, and this is why, again, you talk about inefficient muscle. This is why strength is so much of a stronger correlate to longevity than just muscle. Well, what if I told you this too, that on a myostatin inhibitor, I just don't, this is not a, this is also fact. Your VO2 max is going to be lower. So what are the two things? strength vo2 max that predict health span right now you've got less efficient muscle not not stronger and less and more demands less so i've just given you two of the big things everybody talks about and i've said now does this make sense yeah it's like a fake engine in a car it's wild that it's gotten even this far with the i mean we had a few ideas of the downstream effects of how bad this could be but listening to you it's like it's endless of all the bad it's weird that it would even give me enough time i could write a book yeah that's what it sounds are there also risks of because when i look at some of these studies in the animals i'm speculating uh but they're like low calorie uh is there a risk and they're building muscle right and we know that building muscle in a low calorie environment under normal circumstances very difficult sure is there a risk of when you knock out myostatin active in a that you're also potentially robbing other organs of nutrients because everything's being driven toward building this other tissue.

1:05:29Are you robbing the body of other? Yes. So under normal circumstances, I would need to be in somewhat of a calorie surplus to build muscle. But in this, these are deficits in their building muscle.

1:05:40Dr. William Seeds:Is your body like, yeah, we're just going to take these nutrients, these calories, put it towards building muscle when they might need to go to other functions of the body. Well, so that's another thing. So that's something else we haven't talked about too that I'd have to think more about, but myostatin. So just imagine that it's going to make it more difficult, the muscle to be, you're not going to get that AMBK response where you translocate the GLUT4 receptors to pull in more glucose. You're actually going to have a harder job of getting glucose into the cell over time, for sure. And there's insulin resistance right there.

1:06:22Yeah. And you're going to be producing more insulin to try to get that pulled in. And it's not working. And even exercise, it's going to be, you know, exercise can overcome. Strength training can overcome most, you know, type 2 diabetes can overcome things to get that GLUT4 to transfer. but you've actually got this myostatin inhibitor that's working against that GLUT4. So I don't know where that goes with that, but that's just something to keep in mind.

1:06:53Dr. William Seeds:Something that you have said a few times now during this podcast is you use the word modulate with peptides. When you say modulate, just for listeners, basically what you mean is, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you can look at a function of a cell and increase it or decrease it. And modulating essentially means you're just going to make it go in a better place. Sometimes that means, for example, for the immune system, you want the immune system to not be so vigilant. Other times we need to boost the immune system. Too much immune system, autoimmune issues. Too low, infections and disease. Modulation just means these peptides are putting it in the right place.

1:07:35Correct. Whereas pharmaceuticals are either trying to bump it or depress it. And that brings, I'm sorry, I keep adding things. No. I didn't even get into the immune system with myostatin inhibitors. It influences your immune system. It will decrease its ability to be effective because you're affecting metabolism. That's a real statement. um so there's and and imagine i mean so imagine this muscle that you put on like that too um i just i have some questions in my mind always when i used to see these things about myostatin is you put on this muscle mass that actually then even though it's not as strong it's more muscle mass that puts some more demands on like joints it puts you're obese but you look muscular essentially well you're i think you're setting yourself up for more more joint injuries more you know more more auto we'll get into the aspects i'll just call it degenerative arthritis over time i think you're going to get into those type of things um i i think it could just go on if i

1:08:46Dr. William Seeds:if i could keep thinking about it back to glp ones uh we saw some aglutide terzepatide was next uh you know we have we are jumping around yes we are well you got my brain going you have your single agonist your double agonist terzepatide now there's retatutride did i say that right retatutride retatutride which is a triple agonist yes uh better worse better much better why better because it adds so it's a glp1 it's a gip and it's a and it has glucagon which is another peptide and what's what's what's really what i love about this combination is now you have glucagon's anabolic glucagon is is it's that extra step that i think can help so many people stay away from more significant muscle wasting number right off the bat and and i i know that it you that's gonna work like it's a muscle building glp1 I wouldn't call it a muscle.

1:09:53I'd say it's a more efficient way of cell efficiency, flexibility, which means absolutely building more muscle. better at imagine if you have so glucagon works in a way of being there on demand when it's needed so you can train you know how people train sometimes with some of these GLP-1s and they may say they're getting hypoglycemic but they're probably not it's just there's a lot of things that are happening but you've got glucagon now that can meet certain energy demands when you're training. That's what I really like about that with a GLP-1. And the fact that you don't, it's the, I think what you're going to see, just my, it's my prediction is that you're not going to need as much of that GLP-1 triple agonist to utilize its function in helping

1:10:59with improving metabolism and using even smaller doses. Like we like to say micro doses and stuff, but it's always been when you work with smaller doses that can be effective in achieving -

1:11:13Dr. William Seeds:The result you're looking for. Yeah, or just, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I tell you, can I share with you what's happening in the bodybuilding world with these things? Because the thing I love about the bodybuilding space is that these are like the cosmonauts of all this stuff. They're the first ones to experiment and use stuff. Can I tell you what they're saying about ratatutride? Because this is what they're using now pre-contest. And they've experienced trisepatide and semaglutide. Here's what they're saying. Typically, when bodybuilders diet, they'll do what's called carb cycling. They'll go real low carb and then bump the carbs.

1:11:50And when you bump the carbs, you get some water retention. you feel a little lethargic yeah i need this many carbs to fill out my muscle bellies this gives you energy this is what they're saying yeah uh i i can eat more carbs hold less water

1:12:04Dr. William Seeds:and get fuller muscles and i feel better while taking this besides the appetite suppressing effects which of course is what they were originally looking for they're like oh this feels like it's a little anabolic that's the addition of glucocon wow wow yeah wow i was just talking to a friend of mine i'm not gonna say too much i'm gonna rat him out but he's he's in pre-contest he's a pro and he's telling me all about it and he's like yeah dude he goes uh i'm not using as much t3 and clembuterole and all this stuff i was using before he's like i'm sleeping at night normally pre-contest i'm having a tough time sleeping i sleep like a baby it's like a well he big difference yeah and the and they're also he's he's he or who whoever are utilizing them um they're doing things that are more metabolically um are better for their cells because they're doing other things that aren't good for them to do that this is something that is is actually making their training more effective that's what that's they're saying and um wow yeah we could go into depth on that actually but it's um that's interesting i didn't know that that's where it was with that oh yeah yeah if you ever want to see how people experiment with these things and do crazy stuff well i would tell i would tell them also that they don't need to do significant dosing of it either i mean especially i think he said he was using one milligram three days a week or something like that i may be wrong that very possible okay absolutely very possible okay yeah all right i want to ask you about a since we're talking about peptides uh a category of peptides i guess that i've been reading a lot about based off of a russian scientist's studies uh the the the scientist that i think believe this was Soviet era studies where he was trying to look at making soldiers more effective.

1:14:06Dr. William Seeds:It should have been. Would have been Kevinison probably. I think it starts with a V if I'm not mistaken. His last name. Maybe, maybe that's who it is. Kevinison. Bioregulators. Like what are they? Are they just hype? Are they good to work with? I see you smiling. So I'm assuming you have something juicy to tell us about these. No, I'm, I'm not. i can't i put myself in um so wow uh my opinion is it's a big marketing ploy really to make your piss more expensive that's that's all i would say but i i think it's i'm so kevin isan was the was one of the originators so yeah so he based it off of um first starting with epitalon which is something that can be used orally but you got to use a lot of it and and then try to veer off into making all of these um these are what you're talking about are oral peptides yeah so it's vladimir kivis yeah you're right okay good was that right yeah you are 100 yeah um we had differences of opinions but he was a smart dude i mean that guy really he really knew his stuff Did you know him?

1:15:21I've talked to him. He was kind enough to, I've had a few conversations. Okay. I was, I'm that American guy. But he's not around anymore. But he is, so he started that, those bioregulators that ended up, it didn't work. It didn't go anywhere because they're only certain peptides that can handle the peptidases and the proteases and things that are going to eventually just break down anything oral and make it useless. Wait a second. I thought I saw last time people already talked about strips of BPC-157 that you can use. So BPC-157 is one of the few. okay that does because it's it's made in the gut yeah you can take it so it so it's got it's got the resilience of you can take it so that would be one of the exceptions that actually okay okay two of them three of them uh bbc 157 kpv and lorazotide are the pretty much the three that can be can tolerate the harshness of the gastric going through the stomach and into the intestine and so forth but going through the liver the whole deal so the but getting to the the bioregulators i mean it was brilliant at the beginning to try to do this or it it made sense where he was going with it but it just it just didn't work and and there it was like this deal and so then some marketing group or some group bought the whole rights to it and just they've been around for like a long time decades yeah long time so if they really did anything you we would have known

1:17:17Dr. William Seeds:about this back 20 years ago because you can find his research but it's only his yes uh it hasn't been replicated you can't find any research outside of of that that shows any efficacy they don't work okay they're they're anybody says they're an expert on bioregulators i want to talk to them. I mean, I see it. I see that stuff and it drives me insane. And then it's like, and they'll give you anecdotal. Well, I had this with a patient I had, and it's like, that's not how science works. It's just not, it's a placebo effect. And that's what I'm going to tell you. It's not, but it, it's, it's, I think it's a big, it's my opinion, right?

1:18:00Right. It's a it's a big marketing deal that's been now brought over to the U.S. It's they made the rounds in Europe. They're now here in the U.S. with a bigger budget of marketing. And and that's what you're going to see. I mean, and you're going to and then they're going to you're going to see some people that are going to fall into that fray and and be their expert. Right. And I always say be wary of an expert who's trying to sell you something.

1:18:30Dr. William Seeds:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Could it be, because some people will use certain peptides and get this profound effect, and other people will use it and go, ah, I don't know if I noticed much. Yeah. I'll use the example of MOTC. Sure. I used MOTC, and I felt great. Sure. I mean, I really could tell that I was taking something. I felt good. Yes. I had great energy. Yeah. I know other people that have taken it. I don't notice anything. Sure. Is it the case with peptides that some people need that peptide and other people maybe not so much? And that may be why you might get more of an effect than someone else? I would tell you that it has to do with, again, efficiencies of the cell.

1:19:16And I consider MOTSC and the mitochondrial peptides as second stage, third stage processes of where you don't start there to make the mitochondria better. That means you got a lot of, if MOTSC is working for you, it means you got a lot of things working pretty well. Oh, I see. And it means your oxidative phosphorylation is good. It means your proton motive force is good. And you're just taking advantage of now kind of working more to up, not to upgrade, but to enhance the mitochondria to some degree. Or, so let me go back again and just say, I don't even think about those peptides with most people until I've built a foundation of where I know I've improved oxidative phosphorylation, beta oxidation of fat.

1:20:20Got it. Then they're way more effective. So a healthy person, fit, MOTC, great. It could be. Could be. I mean, there are a lot of people who think they're healthy and in great shape and they're not. I mean, I see it all the time. I see people like people who overtrain.

1:20:37Dr. William Seeds:Oh, yeah. That's a very, you guys probably, you see that all the time. The people who aren't responding, right? You're just like, and even you think they may, you know, this guy is in great shape. And then maybe you got to sit down and you go, you know what? This guy, we're doing too much. Way too much. You know, it's. Super common. Yeah, it's overtraining. It's not going to help you much. You got to get, it's why peptides are great tools, but you have to know how to use them. And you have to know when to use them, why you're using them. For some people, you can't, you know, going after metabolism may be the right step.

1:21:21but maybe maybe before you do that you have to get their immune modulation better this is why

1:21:27Dr. William Seeds:you said at the beginning of the podcast doctors need to learn uh these processes in the cells in the body because if you don't know that 100 then uh you could have all these peptides not use them right not know how to apply it which in what order or which one the person may need and or understand why that application isn't working it's like it's somebody who says yeah you need to strength train, but they don't know exercise technique, form programming. They don't know the right application of intensity. It's just the biggest problem I see. Yeah. And, and I see really smart people. Like I see them in my, uh, in my groups where I do, I do these things called grand rounds where we have people bring their cases in because I want to hear how they think I want to hear.

1:22:12Interesting. I, I, we bring them in with a, with the context of, Hey, I'm not going to tell you how to do something. I'm just going to tell you how I think through it. And you take out of this, what's valuable or not. And I see what I see are really smart people who are like thinking, right. But they got way too many peptides, people taking too much shit together. It's like, Whoa, where, where are you working? You got to start thinking first of all. And their, their, their intention is correct because, Oh, oh, well, this does recovery and repair, and this improves mitochondrial function, and this improves BDNF production, or we could just go on and on.

1:23:03But it's interesting to hear how people want to go out of everything. You can't do that. Why? You're wasting time? Yeah, you're wasting time. I mean, it's funny. It's very similar to how we approach people getting in shape and finished, too. You try to throw the whole kitchen sink at it at one time. You know you can't do it.

1:23:22Dr. William Seeds:So you're telling me if I take a lot of peptides, I'm wasting my time? Cracker Seeds? It all depends on how you work up to it. Okay. You got to build a foundation first. You got to work on whatever that patient's seeing you for. you've got to get some traction of improving either metabolism or the immune aspects or improving senescence or whatever. You've got to get some things that are right without, even though you know the microbiome's involved or you know the immune and metabolism are involved, you can't go after everything. You've got to - There's an order of operations. Yeah, you've got to hit pieces so you're building momentum and you're building a cell that wants to be responsive because it's not going to want to get all of these signals and go, what the fuck is happening?

1:24:18It's like if you threw somebody into training, just like you said, they're going to lose that. Oh, I just thought of another thought here. You're going to lose that neuroadaption, right? You're going to over-sympathetically stimulate them and they're done, right? They're burnt. Yeah, right. one other thing I just thought of with myostatin inhibitors and this muscle, the one thing we know about that is the neuroadaption also, that you're not getting that motor neuron unit.

1:24:50Dr. William Seeds:Oh, yeah. Dumb muscle. Yes. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's another one. If I keep talking here, I'll keep coming up. We are going to get, what you're going to see are heavily muscled people that resemble or more closely resemble obese people. From a function and health standpoint, it just looks different. That's scary. You know why that's scary to me? It's true. Because people will do it. People don't care. People will sign up for it. They don't care. I look better, so here we go. And it's going to be weird. It's also going to be weird seeing jacked dudes that are weak, which is what you're going to also see.

1:25:27Dr. William Seeds:This is going to be wild. Yeah, I've had some people that have gone. so this goes into other types of of these type of therapies that are actually out there i'm going to talk a little bit more about it because i have a little more knowledge of some things that are going out on outside of the country where there are different programs of of exact of using some different technologies to just achieve the same thing and and they're older people going looking for longevity. And I've, I've had a few of my patients that have all the resources in the world and, um, and they get caught in that, that, um, frenzy of something new and somebody that's doing something that is, um, phenomenal.

1:26:24Right. And, and this was, these are some things that I should have spent more time on discussing, like these aspects of what we're just talking about right now. I just didn't think they'd do it because they were my patient. I said, don't pay attention to that. I was wrong. They went and did it and didn't get far with it. But it's just interesting that I think the social media aspect of all of this is hard to fight.

1:26:55Dr. William Seeds:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Do you have an education course? Do you have an actual course that doctors and practitioners can take to learn? About? About these processes and how to use peptides. Oh my gosh, yeah. That's what you were at, that event, the SSRP. That's my - Are there digital education courses? Oh yeah. Okay, good. So someone listening right now - We have the most robust education in this area than anywhere in the world. Wow. And in fact, we're doing some really, I can't say it now, but we're on the verge of partnering with some significant academic institutions and some other people in other areas of the world where we're putting our stamp on people being educated and understanding what they're doing if they really want to go down this road.

1:27:50Dr. William Seeds:I think this is great, mainly because as a consumer, if I'm listening to this, I'm like, how do I know the person I'm talking to is going to know this stuff like Dr. Seeds? And I'll be able to ask them, are you certified in his courses or have you taken it? Correct. Wonderful. And gosh, you got to have me back when this is official. We will. Because I'm going to blow the – It's good that you do want to do this because I actually was going to bring up today that I've seen recently, and it's becoming a trend because of peptides being so popular, of just random Instagram people and trainers creating their own peptide courses.

1:28:33Which probably have this much depth of knowledge around it, but obviously know the opportunity to sell people on that. What a bunch of bullshit. I know. It's popping up all over right now. It is. and it's, you know, I guess you can look at it in a couple ways. I mean, look at all the attention it's getting, which I think is awesome. And eventually everybody gets, like we're that top tier. Everybody gets to us eventually. That's right, the cream rises to the top. I think so. It's like, I don't want the people that want just a protocol. It's like, if you want a protocol, then go, you're going to go nowhere with that.

1:29:10But if you really want to understand it, And in fact, we're trying to meet those needs of education for not just the physician, not just the NP, just not the PA, but also for the trainers, strength trainers and trainers too. We're trying to do that type of education at every level. So we're trying to be responsive to what people want. And it's a big task, but I want people to want to know it. Right. You know, because I think anybody can know, if they have the desire, you know, you can know these molecular pathways. You can know this information. You can read the studies. And you can be just as smart as me.

1:30:05It's just because I have a doctor behind my name doesn't mean shit. It means that I got a degree to be a physician to take care of people. And I've got some, hopefully I've got the right ethics to do what's appropriate for people. And I'm going to continue to learn. It doesn't mean anybody else can't learn what I want to learn, what I've learned. And that's what we're trying to do with. That's why you see, you know, why you guys, why have you there presenting and you did a wonderful job. and physicians want to listen to that because they have no training in that. They have no understanding of physical exercise and the importance and the role it plays.

1:30:45And so you bring a real dynamic to learning what we all should be learning and that's everything, right? So why can't it be both sides?

1:30:56Dr. William Seeds:Excellent. Well, God bless you. I'm glad you're doing this. Really glad. You're one of my favorite, favorite people to talk to. Always enjoy talking. Yeah, so, and I appreciate your - You got me in trouble probably today a little bit. I feel like I always learn something every time we sit down and talk. And we have to get ahead of this. We have to get ahead of this, get the right information out. And so I learned a lot. I hope our audience, I know our audience did. And I hope this episode goes viral so people don't get so excited about this, you know, muscle in a bottle, fat loss in a bottle combination type deal.

1:31:25I think it's a great thought and it's a great idea, but you got to look at this. you know there's a reason some of this didn't go anywhere and really become on its own something because of the issues that we just discussed and and to think you know i think one other thing that people may think well okay wait i'm going to combine this with a glp1 because a glp1 is going to do what it's truly uh working on metabolic efficiency and flexibility of the cell So if I'm doing that part, that's going to offset the part of the myoset. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way at all.

1:32:06Dr. William Seeds:Yeah. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Always a great time. Appreciate you. Thank you, guys. Look forward to, we'll, I'm really excited. If I know this is all happening, I just can't say it. But when you guys hear this, I think you'll be really excited where this is going. We'll have you back on for sure. For sure. Thank you. Awesome. All right. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com.

1:32:39The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. if you enjoy this show please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on itunes and by introducing mind pump to your friends and family we thank you for your support and until next time this is mind pump