2705: How to Quit Pornography with Sathiya Sam

24:01He gets the death sentence. And before he's about to be executed in the days leading up to it, he has thousands, literally thousands of media inquiries because it was the biggest story of the time. And he only agrees to one. And it's with a guy named Dr. James Dobson who ran a broadcast called Focus on the Family. You know who he is? Yeah, yeah, he's great. So, you know, so obviously everybody wants to know why. why did you, you know, 29 documented murders and, and rapes. He would, he would entice these women, he would rape them and then he would kill them. And so they asked, they asked him like, he asked him point blank.

24:38Why do you think, why do you think you, you wound up this way? He was a lawyer. Like he was a well-to-do guy as well educated. And he said, you can ask me and you can ask anybody in this maximum security prison. He said, well, I'll tell you the same thing. It all started with pornography. I didn't know that. Yeah. I don't know. He said that. Yeah. I know that. Yes. Yes, I saw the exact same clip. Wow. Crazy. Now, listen, here's what's going to happen. People are listening. People are going to freak out. People are going to freak out. You're going to become a serial killer if you watch porn. You just made that analogy, of course.

25:05Well, look. Calm the fuck down. Here's the connection. Calm down. Here's the connection. All right, so are people who watch pornography going to kill people? No. The vast, vast majority do not. However, here's the connection. It illustrates a point, right? When you're objectifying a body constantly, and it's an object. It's an object. It's an object. It's not a human. It's not a real person. Now you can see how you take a troubled individual like Ted Bundy for whatever reason. And you can see how now that's a direct humanizes. Yes, that's right. Now you can see how that can connect to, well, killing somebody.

25:40It's just an object. And it's a slow escalation, right? So I don't know if he detailed this in this particular interview, but it was not, it's not like he went from, oh, I watched a bit of pornography to I'm going to go kill people. but what he what he did say in that interview was eventually the thrill of pornography started to wear off yeah and so he needed to seek something else to get his thrill and that's that's when your mind can go to some darker places now today the reason that ted bundy's story doesn't get repeated is because people have way more options for sexual experiences online because in bundy's day it was it was magazines i'm trying to remember the timeline i mean maybe vhs videos i think it was pre-DVD.

26:20But now online, the stories that we get for people that are showing up to us, and not everybody's like this, but you get a lot of guys who say, yeah, it started soft core, then it was hardcore, and then it starts to become niche. We have lots of guys who are heterosexual men that watch homosexual pornography. They don't watch it because they're gay. They watch it because that was thrilling for them because eventually the other stuff fell like vanilla. So novelty. Novelty enhances the pleasure. And so I think today you have much more dangerous stuff much more niche content weird stuff things that you think oh i would i would never watch that that's disgusting and then a few years later well yeah what you used to watch kind of has worn off your brain became desensitized and so you needed to find the porn industry has data on that they actually report that they report the different you know top searches and it gets it gets harder and harder and harder core yeah and more and more niche and and strange and different yeah that's happened over the last 10 years are there are there common things that you see in let's say uh men that are uh doing it maybe just a couple times a week versus men that are doing it every day versus men that are going multiple times is there like common things that uh that are being impacted in their life based off of their frequency of doing that do you see stuff like that like typically to your point like oh the guy who does it a few times who doesn't think it's a big deal he may not notice huge things, but maybe his intimacy is off with his partner or he has a hard time to like, are there things like that, that you can connect the dots to like the level of frequency and how much they're addicted and how it's impacting their life?

27:49Yeah. Okay. So, um, so I would say across the spectrum, they all have one thing in common and I'll start with that. And then as you go up, there's two factors that escalate. Okay. So, um, the thing that every person who struggles with pornography to any extent has in common, it has nothing to do with race, socioeconomic status, income, upbringing, trauma, literally has nothing to do with that. The only thing they all have in common is they got exposed at a young age. Oh, wow. That's literally it. And it just goes to show you how important it is that we protect our kids. Like those, we'll get there, I'm sure, in the conversation today.

28:23It's very, very important. The two factors that determine the escalation, and this is Sathya's theory, just on working with a thousand plus guys personally and all that. it's not necessarily verified. Well, maybe some of it. There's some data behind this. The two factors are boredom and loneliness. So the more bored you are, and I'll translate that as the less purpose you have in your life, I think the more likely you are to escalate along that scale. And then loneliness, the more disconnection you have. Not loneliness like, oh, you're a loner and you have no friends. Loneliness like I'm in a crowd of my friends, but nobody knows what's really going on.

28:59That lack of personal connection. Or I've been married to this woman for 20 years, but she doesn't even know half of what's going on in my life because I've been so shelled off or so closed off. So those are the two things that I would say really escalated. The irony of what you just said is that pornography also contributes to both. Right. So I need some purpose and I feel kind of disconnected. Isn't that what he's saying right there? He's saying that there's a common thread in all of them that got introduced to it, but then that, what you're talking about, as the frequency comes that escalates i imagine it's the more you're doing it the more positive feedback loop yeah exactly yeah it's a positive feedback gap gets wider with the amount that's right for consuming yeah because if i have if i have a free friday night and i know i should probably go hang out with friends and they're inviting me out but you know i'm maybe i don't want to hang out with friends i'm tired whatever and i stay at home and i'm bored and i watch pornography well that now that that creates more boredom in my life because i'm i'm not forming those connections.

29:55I'm not really keeping any kind of quality of life in my relationships. So more boredom leads to more pornography and more pornography leads to more shame. Like we talked about earlier. And we know that shame tells you to hide and to isolate. And so intimacy, less, yeah, less connection. So again, you can see why this is actually a relatively slippery slope. Is there, is there a point where you see like you guys have unlocked? So for example, when we're training clients and you're trying to get them to say increase calories, but they want to lose body fat there's this like hurdle at the beginning of like yeah oh my god this is not what i want to do yeah and then you start to build some strength in them they eat they're eating more calories than they were before and they're actually starting to see their waste go in or some of that and then i know at that point i've got them i'm like yes okay i've taken that person who wasn't sure didn't trust me all the things i got them to follow the plan it took them about a month or two now they see this and now it's like they're bought in is there do you see similar like Like there's, okay, tell me what are the things that get them bought in?

30:53Yeah, so, well, we talked about it a little bit already, which was the optimizing your tech. And people do see benefits from that. It's a starting point. We have three pillars in our recovery process. So the first is building self-awareness. The second is healing your heart. And the third is shifting your identity. When we get to the second pillar, healing your heart, we're very fond of a modality called inner child work. I just think it's the most effective for helping guys heal from sexual issues. that that is where people go oh okay I think I get it now because when you start talking about trauma in this conversation people kind of tune you out because they're like I don't get I don't get how trauma from my childhood is why I watch pornography it's hard for people to connect those dots once you start talking about inner child work and they built some self-awareness usually it's at that point where people go okay I think I think I get it now and and again like you said Once they trust you and they see you know what you're talking about, then you can take them really, really far.

31:49You talked earlier about the younger that they were when they first exposed to it, the more that's connected to using it more often. Greatest predictor, for sure. More frequent. That probably has to do with just the way the brain molds and models itself. Your brain is very plastic. It's no different than the four-year-old kid that grew up in this screaming household and then what do they end up marrying? Whether they even remember it or not, it's been - Or they eat lots of candy. Right. And then growing up, it's like fruit is bland because my brain is kind of molded. Yeah. 100%. Well, yes. But the comparison there breaks down a bit because sexual stimulation is processed 20 % faster in the brain and body than anything else.

32:31Wow. Yeah. So think about – so even if we were to run with that and compare getting exposed to really sugary candy versus pornography, the wiring actually happens 20 % faster. the dependency, the dopamine hit, all of it comes faster from something that's sexual in nature. And so, yeah, I actually didn't know this. Like, I think I maybe learned this a year and a half ago. We had a sexual abuse specialist come and speak to our community. And he, you know, his name is Dr. Doug Carpenter. He's very well researched on this. He's the one that told me about it. And I had no idea. Yeah, it's interesting because both of them are connected to things that like eating and surviving would be the food one.

33:05Obviously reproducing would be the sex one. So they're both like animalistic means. They're innate for sure. Yeah, exactly. innate that we need it's interesting that the sexual one would be so much higher than the food one that's interesting yeah and i don't know any thoughts on that um i mean especially with men where it's visual so it's instant so you don't have to you don't have to eat savor feel whatever it's you see boom see boom yeah maybe i think process it quicker i think it's because um you can eat food and it not be pleasurable right right you can eat food and you know it's good for you but it's not necessarily giving you pleasure I don't think you can experience something sexual that's not pleasurable as well obviously again there's sexual abuse I know there's exceptions to that I'm just talking about a general experience where it's by your choice I think you have pleasure so tightly attached to it I think that's what makes the hardwiring faster nonetheless I mean that just highlights why it's so more addicting which is interesting which we know how much sugar and stuff like that can be addicting so imagine the power that has I think I was exposed right around the same age as you around 11 or 12 because I went to work with my dad in construction, which is, you know, you got a bunch of dudes working, whatever, and you're helping people.

34:16I mean, it's not a joke. People know this in construction. Port-a-potties would have on the inside of the door. No way the posters happened to me. There'd be a poster or something in there. So I'm a kid, and that's one of the first things that I saw. Or you find a magazine, and the helper says, hey, grab me the thing out of the truck, and you go in there. We work with military guys who say, like, in the bathrooms on base, yes you know there's magazines and whatever yeah so i was probably right around the same age as you when i first got i got to imagine what the and this is in the 90s so and in the 90s uh you didn't have uh pornhub no yeah you didn't have that has to be crazy i mean that's crazy i would imagine the average age of exposure is probably younger now yeah i mean um it used to be somewhere between 10 to 12 it's reported to be as young as eight now so yeah so again i mean again whether we're comparison candy or pornography or whatever, you're so plastic at that stage.

35:09You're so undeveloped. And again, I think we don't even realize what's on our hands because the next generation that are all tech natives that got exposed at a young age. And then it's not just that you got exposed at a young age, but then it's the volume, the volume of content that you're exposed to, the intensity of the content, what's considered mainstream now was considered extreme hardcore 10 years ago so all of that is programming right and then they're going to become adults and have all kinds of issues knowing what you just said about the younger you're exposed and how it wires your brain all that stuff this is a terrible question to ask but i have to ask it are predators online using this to their advantage are they purposely trying to expose children oh yeah to program them did did you see the documentary that was um what was the name of but I brought it up on the show not that long ago where they talked about these kids that are YouTube stars, that 80 % of their millions of followers are men between the age of like 45 and 60.

36:11Like 80%. You're talking about a kid who has 3 million followers and you're telling me that 2.3 million of them are 40-year-old men and it's a 13-year-old girl? That's how, of course. I mean, can't convince me why that dude is watching that content other than those types of reasons. No, for sure. No, I think pedophilia, all that stuff is through the roof because you can bait people online very, very easily. And to be honest, the biggest predator is the industry itself. Like kids don't get exposed to pornography at a young age by accident. They know what they're doing. So there's tons of that going on for sure.

36:50And I would say, again, we don't work with kids. We don't even really work with people that are that young. Usually people start working with us around early 20s at the youngest. Um, at that stage, the thing that we're seeing more now is people are getting duped online by bots and AI. So, well, I'll give you an example. So I worked with a guy beginning of this year. Uh, it's a, it's a really terrible story. He's, he's high, pretty high up in, um, management, hotel management, sorry, hospital management. And, um, you know, he has a good career from the outside looking in. He looks like he's kind of got it all together.

37:24Uh, his, his daughter walks in on him watching pornography. and I think she was maybe late teens, leaves the home, doesn't want anything to do with him. So he's already kind of in shambles, right? And so he comes to us, he's explaining all this. It's a really, really difficult story. And he goes, yeah, but he said that wasn't actually the worst of it. He said it got worse during COVID. So we're like, okay, what happened? He said, well, I was really stressed. You know, like he's in medical care. So obviously it was a really stressful time for them. He said, I didn't know how to cope. So I went to pornography.

37:56pornography was eventually not really cutting it for me so um i wound up having a few affairs we've heard this story before and so i said okay how many three um okay all the same time over the span of time he said no it's three separate they were all within the span of about a year and a half i said okay does your wife know yes she knows she's devastated you know whatever whatever um this is actually a really good example of what we were talking about earlier where he was telling everything he was telling me was true but i could just tell like there was more yeah like Like, I don't know. It was holding.

38:28It was disconnecting. Yeah. So I just said, okay, well, how did the first affair happen? How did it start? Well, it was, he's like, yeah, actually all three affairs were mostly online. They were emotional in nature. There wasn't really a, there was kind of a sexual element, but not a physical element. I'm like, okay, you know, all right, whatever. And he's like, yeah, after that first affair, I actually discovered I was talking to a bot the whole time. I was like, okay. and what about the second third he's like yeah same thing wow three affairs he had three three three emotional affairs online affairs and he was he was being contacted they were bots oh my god so that again we've been talking about this ai revolution what is the what is the desired outcome for the person who's controlling the bot to do that like what is he what are they getting what gain are they getting i mean he might have paid for something in there it wasn't necessarily a part of our that initial conversation interesting um and it wasn't really part of our focus to be honest.

39:24But yeah, but the other thing is, you know, even think about the thing about Pornhub, like Pornhub doesn't charge you. So what, how do they make their money? Your attention, right? Like if the product is free, you are the product. So it, yeah, those, those bots would all work the same way. They're probably getting your attention and somehow they're monetizing on the backend. If I recall, it's so funny now I'm thinking back, like a drug dealer, you go to your drug, your drug dealer, let's say you get your drug and he's always got something stronger. Hey, you want to try this thing right no i'm not interested i just like this whatever yeah but it's kind of like this little suggestion yes now that i recall um it always blew me away how porn sites would have the craziest suggestions or on the page i'm like what is this i'm not are they doing that because they know of course yeah because they know that's how they get more and more hooked yes push you so they're offering or or probably their algorithms are showing things that are more extreme or things that you're like that's weird and that's no i'm not cool with that on purpose, knowing that that's what's going to get you.

40:24For sure. That is very nefarious. They know the escalation, right? They know the path that happens here and they don't force it. They just present it like, hey, this is an option, right? And they know that eventually, again, it's like all good, it's really, it's like all good advertising. They know that eventually, if they just kind of stay top of mind long enough, you're probably going to make a decision, right? Because eventually your life circumstances will change. I mean, we kind of, to be fair, like we kind of do that on the opposite end. We release, you know, just like you guys, you know, four or five episodes a week on our podcast.

40:52We try to be really present because we know people listening to us. Sure. They're not going to listen to us and be like, oh, wow, I'm addicted to pornography. I need help right away. But we know that there's going to come those moments and we want to be there for them. And the industry just kind of does it on the other side of it. Right. They're just trying to they're just trying to push you further and further down that rabbit hole. How how important is working with a support group or putting this out in the open? You know, like the guy who's like, I got a problem. I'm going to deal with this on my own.

41:19versus the guy that's like, you know what? I'm going to go through your course and work with some people or talk to some people about this. Yeah, there's a great verse in the book of Proverbs. It says, he who conceals his sins will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will find mercy. And the research equivalent of that is the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. I don't know if you guys have ever heard that before. Yes, yes. So it all kind of dovetails into the same thing, which is that the more you try to do this alone, the less likely you are to succeed and the more likely you are to stay addicted.

41:52And I knew this because I studied the research and I knew this even just from like reading scripture and all that good stuff. But until we added a more communal element, like some group coaching, and now we have like a thriving online community of guys from around the world quitting, I did not realize actually how important that was. For guys to realize, number one, I'm not the only one. Number two, if I have a difficult day, there's somebody I can call. And number three, we're like, we're in this together. We're pursuing this goal collectively. It's very, very powerful. And it's probably more powerful than anything else.

42:24I mean, we stand by our system. We swear by it. I'm a big system guy. Our coaches are amazing. But I think the community is probably the best thing you get. And one thing I just wanted to clarify is, because I used to say, you know, if you're doing this alone, you got to find someone to talk to. But I had people, they'd message me on Instagram or we get people writing into our podcast and they'd say, hey, I told somebody, but they kind of judged me or they didn't get it. They looked at me weird. And I thought, shoot, I'm not being specific enough. You can't just tell anybody, but you have to tell somebody that you know isn't going to judge you.

42:55Or ideally you tell somebody else that you know is on that same journey as you. And I think that's why our community has had such success already is because people just know by being there, there's this understanding of we all have the struggle. So it de-shames, but also we're all on mission together. Can I just clarify too with judging? Because people get that not judging, they get that totally mixed up. Not judging doesn't mean you don't know what's right or wrong or good or bad. When people use the word judging the way you're using it, it means you're not being looked down upon. That's right.

43:24They'll see you differently. Right. So you have a really good friend that you trust. You tell them this issue. It's not like they're like, ah, it's not a big deal. You're fine. That's not what we're talking about. They're going to say, okay, man, that is an issue, but I'm here for you, bro. Yeah, they're going to treat you the exact same way after that conversation. That's right. Okay, so along those lines, and I know women suffer from this as well, but it's much more prevalent in men. This is a much bigger problem. Yeah, I mean, it's about two to one, the ratio of porn viewers. So there's a lot of women that have this issue.

43:52That much women, huh? Yeah, it was 36 % last year, and there was actually a country that had more female porn viewers than men. Wow. Interesting. That would not have been the case even a few years ago. So generally speaking, it's more men. And I'm imagining that the female rate is growing because they're getting exposed at young ages as well. So they're probably getting conditioned just like men are. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you said it earlier, right? Men are more visual. So I think it'll always be more men viewing than women. We have a lot of women that still reach out to us. Right now, we only work with men.

44:21But I think the reason is because at the core, people are viewing pornography for the things we talked about earlier. Connection, a sense of purpose or meaning, some way of feeling alive. And whether you're male or female, you'll have those desires. I can imagine, I almost feel like I've heard some women talk about pornography as being empowering for women, which is wild. What a wild message. Like, it's good, you know, know your body and it's like, whatever. That's such a crazy message to me. Yeah, well, yeah, because Trump actually passed a bill that banned revenge pornography and AI, I think it was AI generated pornography.

44:55Oh, good. Okay. Yeah. And then out of it was this uproar, like, obviously, you know, like, oh, Trump's anti-women. He's trying to suppress females. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. Because I guess the argument is that women earn a living through these things. And so you're robbing them of a chance to earn a living. Now for that particular bill, that the bill literally had nothing to do with that. It was a total misnomer. I have no idea why those arguments all came up. But even that argument in general is just fatally flawed. so strange yeah and now on the other flip side i would imagine that the fear of expressing pornography addiction or challenges from a woman have got to be higher because either a you could be viewed yourself uh and be objectified like if i talk about i have a porn issue now people are gonna think i'm like this hyper sexualized yeah whatever yeah or the shame because uh well oh my gosh i'm a you know i'm a woman so i can almost imagine this like divided either i feel like i'm empowered where I feel like this is way too embarrassing.

45:51It's tougher for women that are struggling for sure because of that additional layer of stigma, right? It's one thing to say, I have an addiction. It's another thing to say I'm addicted to pornography, but it's another thing to say I'm a woman addicted to pornography. And then there's just not as much help out there. So that like, we've had to work really hard to try to vet people, to find people that we trust to refer these women to that reach out to us because it's difficult. So here was where I was going though, cause it's still more men than women. Uh, but nonetheless, here's where I was going with it.

46:16A lot of these men are married. And I can imagine the fear and shame, potential shame they have of sharing with their partner. If a partner, if a wife or a girlfriend has a boyfriend or a husband who's talking about this, what's the best and worst thing they can do to help the situation? Yeah. Okay. Good question. Now, just to drive your point home a little bit, they did a survey of OnlyFans users. And I actually had a former OnlyFans, like she used to run an OnlyFans agency. She had like a radical conversion to Christianity and left the whole thing. But she was telling me some really interesting stats.

46:50And I think it's 89 % of OnlyFans users are married men. Do you guys know that? Yeah, I did. Yeah. So this is a really, really pertinent question for our time in our day and age right now. If you're, okay, if you're married, so I'll backtrack a little bit. We believe heavily in this concept called the relationship bank account, which is that in a marriage, you are always either depositing or withdrawing from the account. There's only two ways, right? So, you know, you do something sweet for your wife, you put a deposit in, right? And then, you know, you say something you shouldn't have said, you said something dumb, okay, a bit of a withdrawal.

47:23So obviously you always want there to be a surplus in the balance. When you are a man in a relationship with someone else and you are struggling with pornography and she's not aware, you only have two options. You either confess or you get caught. Both are a withdrawal. Only one is a deposit. So she's going to be hurt either way, whether she catches you or whether you confess. But if you confess, it signals a degree of integrity and a degree of, hey, I'm willing to come clean. I'm willing to do something about this. And so it simultaneously puts a little bit of a deposit. Oh, interesting. Great way of saying that.

48:05Yes. And so it's so important that you take the first step. If you really care about your loved one, if you really want that relationship to last, the only, the, the way you stack the odds that it's actually going to make it through is that you come clean about what's going on. You know, there's, there's, there's another selling point to this that we haven't really touched on that I thought was really fascinating. Something that Katrina and I like unpacked in our own relationship. And this has never been, I told Sal before we've, when we, he was going through his thing like i've never really had like a a good addiction to it in fact last time was a month ago time before that months before that so it's like really infrequent but part of the reason why it's that infrequent is because it was a couple more times than that than than before we came over here and met yeah i remember katrina and i talking about where we had like a week or two where there was no no outside i'm gonna go further than i probably should here we're talking about masturbation at all okay and the level of intimacy that was increased in that quick of a short amount of time it was like this hack that we we hacked into yeah to the point where my wife and i communicate all the time and we know that if we abstain from that yeah the level of intimacy that we have is on another planet and we already had great intimacy and and that was always good yeah but by abstaining from that better it's incredible what it does for your relationship.

49:24And we always said, we always justified the infrequent pornography and stuff like that. And because it was like, we already had great sex. So it's just, it's fun. It's different. It's unique every now and then it's like, Oh, we haven't done something like that in months. Let's do that. But when we don't, and we abstain from both the pornography and masturbation, holy shit, does the, our sex life crazy better. And so to me, I think that's a big selling point for a lot of people that are in relationships that are also dating pornography is like, uh, you want your sex life to be 10 times better than that.

49:59Get to that place where you can abstain from that because that goes through the roof. Yeah. I mean, how could it not, you know, if you think about it, because you only have so much sexual energy in one person. And if all of that is reserved simply for intimacy with your partner, it's going to be through the roof. But we are such a sexualized culture that we don't even know what that is. Because like you said, there are people like this who, you know, you view pornography infrequently or whatever. There's little behaviors, little things that you kind of do here and there. And they're just little drains, little sucks of your sexual energy.

50:32And it can really limit your relationship. So I do think you're right. I think that's a huge selling point. And longevity. Longevity in a relationship is way higher when you're not watching pornography and you don't have any of these other kinds of things going on because not only is the sex itself really good, but we know that in addition to sex being a physical experience, it's also emotional. And so people are much more emotionally engaged. That's one thing we hear back from the spouses of our clients is, I don't know what you did to, you know, I don't know what you did to Steve, but he opens up more.

51:06He talks more. He's more present in the relationship. He's, he's there when, when we're having a conversation and obviously she feels more connected to him emotionally, she's going to be way more engaged when they engage sexually. Now, I imagine what I'm talking about impacted me so fast because there wasn't really a level of addiction there. And so I saw it real quick just by measuring, oh, wow, this is two weeks and none of that. This is what happens. Does it take more time for somebody who probably has? And maybe that's why that's not enough of a selling point is because maybe if that person who's addicted every week, they do it a handful of times or more, goes to one or two weeks in a row of not and then having sex with a partner they don't see enough of an increase right away you think or do they right away is it good really they could i mean the hardest clients for us to work with are the people that watch pornography infrequently oh interesting because the yeah well there's a couple of justification of it maybe no you just have less data to play with okay because their their temptation cycles are longer um they're there's not there's not as much going on in between that you can pull on so you have to wait longer yeah this is something that again we get a lot of pushback on this, but this has been like the thing that's made us so successful.

52:15We don't believe in street counting. So we don't really ask how long it's been. I mean, we do ask how long it's been, but it's not really a focus. Um, we believe in tracking trends. Did I talk about this last time? No, no, no, I don't think so. Okay. So this, I think it actually has relevance for diet and stuff too, but you guys could argue me on this. Um, if you're trying to count streaks and you go 30 days and day 31, you watch pornography. If you're street counting, that's a failure. You're back to the drawing board again. You start all over again. But what I observed, and I discovered this very early on working with clients, is they had made so much progress in that 30 days.

52:50And if we could reframe that slip as, yeah, it was a mistake, but it's just a bump in the road. Look at your trend. Yeah. Look at your trend instead. We talk like that all the time. Trend perspective, you've only watched pornography once in the last 31 days. That's actually pretty damn good. Yeah. Right. And all of a sudden it's a reframe. And now we can actually learn from this. We call it leveraging relapses. Not that you have to have slips, but if you do, let's learn from it and then let's keep moving forward. So backing up the question I'd asked, I'd love to get into this. What's the best thing and the worst thing a partner can do when their partner comes up to them and says, yeah, I don't want to circle back to that.

53:27Okay. So sorry, you're asking the best thing for the partner. Yeah. So you go tell your wife, Hey, I've been watching pornography. What's the best thing she could do based off what you've seen? And then what's the worst thing she could do? So I think, um, I can say what the best thing is, but I don't want somebody to, to feel pressure to reply a certain way because it's very painful. Generally, it's very painful for a woman to hear this. So, um, the best thing I would say to a partner is however, whatever you feel, if you feel really upset or you feel whatever it's, it's fair. You don't need to feel bad about feeling upset about it.

54:00Um, if I'm talking purely from the lens of the person who's sharing the news, what's the best thing they can get? The best thing they can get is acceptance. Hey, thanks for telling me. And like, I'm still here. And also a little bit of like, but you got to get your crap together. Because we have guys who are like, yeah, you know, my wife doesn't really care, but I can see it's like ruining his life. And I know that if his wife cared a little bit more, he would care a bit more and he'd get his life back on track. So the compassion part is good. Like some understanding and some like, I'm here with you.

54:34that's amazing. But also like, I think it's okay to communicate. This is really serious and you need to take this seriously or else X, Y, Z. Right. So it's, it's, so it's what it sounds to me like is grace and then, uh, real love and real love is not like, yeah, it's fine. It's like, Hey, look, I get it. Thanks for coming to me. Like let's, let's, I'll help you with this. This is something that I think we need to work on. Is it, is it common for, uh, men to turn to pornography because they're not getting any sex in their, in their marriage and life? Is that Very common. Okay. So how do you deal with that?

55:04Cause that's gotta be a challenge. It is a challenge, especially when, okay, so sure. You have, you have a sexless marriage for whatever reason, but then sometimes you just have like natural bouts where you're not having sex as much like a pregnancy. Right. Right. Or your wife has just delivered a child. So, um, that's actually when a lot of guys start to fall off the deep end. It's a major life transition or especially having kids. We hear this one a lot. So I think those are actually really good opportunities to figure out what is really the most fundamental question of this whole conversation, which is what is porn offering me?

55:35What is porn offering me? Because if you can answer that question, you can come up with a superior alternative. It's offering me connection. So you find other ways to connect. It's offering me a sense of purpose and meaning in life. Okay. Like if you don't know what pornography is offering you, that's when you're very blind and this can become a really hopeless situation. So, um, I mean, you know, my wife and I, we just had a kid, we just had our second, He's seven weeks old. So much less sexual activity right now. And so for me, number one, I prepared for it a little bit. I'm aware of it. But number two, it's actually a great opportunity for me to be like, okay, what are the needs that are coming up?

56:09Because sometimes we do use sex, even in a marriage, we can still use sex sometimes to meet needs. And there's a healthy part of it and there can be an unhealthy part of that. And so it's just a good opportunity to see, okay, what's coming up? Where are my needs? Where are my desires? And so we just encourage people, leverage those moments when they happen. Now, if somebody's in a sexless marriage because the wife does not want to have sex, she's withholding sex because of trauma, she doesn't trust, whatever it might be. We have a lot more, obviously, like a lot more empathy for those guys. It's very, very difficult.

56:38That's where our first pillar of recovery is really valuable, building self-awareness. Because typically what we found is if there's one thing that is going to unlock that barrier, it's going to be emotional connection. And most guys that are struggling with pornography don't know how to foster that. So that's something we teach. We help them build skills to foster emotional connections so that if there is something traumatic going on that's causing her to withhold sex, she's at least willing to talk about it now. And if she's talking about it, then you can actually go somewhere with it. Or if she doesn't trust you, because maybe you did something and she's not telling you what you did, but you know you did something.

57:13Again, if you're showing her love, you're showing her care, you're showing her that it's safe for her to be herself, eventually those things will surface and you can start working through them. How important is it to understand your triggers? uh for example uh could be social media could be a friend you know a group of friends yes different conversations yes and again this is like uh this is what you would do with an alcohol with a recovering alcoholic it's like hey one of your triggers is these two guys you go out with all the time you guys always drink yeah maybe don't go out with them or maybe don't you know hang out you know next door to the bar where there's easy access or whatever that's such a that's actually a really common one alcohol alcohol is also another like kind of gateway drug quote unquote in this because your inhibitions are lowered, right?

57:54So you make worse decisions. Yeah, I'm imagining more slip-ups happen after a few drinks than they would. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 100%. Interestingly enough, because like I said, I was going through files of people that had come to our program through Mind Pump. And one thing that I observed actually in a lot of their, we do like, you know, we kind of do an intake process just to understand their stories a bit better. And one thing that was very common was girls at the gym. Girls at the gym is a really common trigger, which was really interesting. So triggers, we have an exercise called, we call them trigger diggers.

58:24And I believe that triggers can actually give you very clear data on what your root issues are. Because that's what we're always after is what's actually underneath the surface? What's the root of this? And people don't like the sounds of that because it sounds very arduous. It sounds like so much work and it's very kind of ethereal and you got your root issues, but you know, you got to pay for 25 sessions with me before we can really get to it. Like that's what everybody's kind of used to hearing, right? But this is in the second video of the course. We teach trigger diggers. And trigger diggers is just basically, hey, give us some of your more recent triggers.

58:56And through a series of a couple of really pointed questions, we can start to get to some of the more root issues. Your triggers tell you so much. They tell you so, so much. And no two people are, how do I say this? No two people have the same trigger profile. As in, you and I could both experience the same thing. I'm really triggered by it and you walk away like it was just ordinary because they're not always sexual. Like, you know, maybe somebody at the gym who's dressed a little bit more provocatively or whatever that that's obvious. But I mentioned there's ones like stress from work and so exactly there's sometimes someone feeling a lot of overwhelming and then they're going to chase that dopamine from something else.

59:31Exactly. Exactly. So knowing your triggers is really, really important because it's actually it's empowering. So we have like we have this thing called a progress tracker. You you track every single day. Were you clean? Yes or no. And then what were your internal and your external triggers? External triggers is somebody at the gym. It's a project at work. Internal triggers is I'm stressed. I don't feel like I'm good enough. I'm worried about my performance. Like it's, it's those kinds of more, you know, deeper inner stuff. What happens after a while is you start to see some patterns emerging. I was actually just going through a client's trigger progress tracker last week.

1:00:06I was looking at his triggers and he, there's a lot of different things on it, but I just observed, I just said, it seems like every single day before a couple of days leading up to a slip, you're always really tired. So I said, like, what's going on there? Now he's got some medical stuff going on. I actually referred him over here. I said, you should listen to these guys. They'll help you. But he's got some health issues going on. He's feeling a lot of fatigue. And that's a really good example of you wouldn't really expect it. But then it kind of makes sense because when you're tired, your inhibitions are lower and maybe you can fight it for a day.

1:00:36Maybe you can even fight it for two days. But if it lingers long enough eventually you're going to give in and now because he knows that now he can figure out the next time he feels tired he can't let that go a day right he's got to figure out something to get his energy back to be sharp again because he knows where it's going to lead otherwise i mean this is so similar to how we coach people oh yeah when we coach people with oh yeah when someone goes and binges a bowl of ice cream it's there's something else there and many times it's that trigger and they they're not they're just not aware of it they just think it's the ice cream it's like no there was something that happened yes in your day that's a good point and same type of stuff it could be stress related like it could be celebration that triggers it because there's like you make a connection to things yeah yeah could be a lot of different things but finding making uh getting into a level of awareness where you understand that is step one and then being ahead of it going like okay maybe this is where i'll go take that walk instead of what i normally do go to the refrigerator and hit the ice cream but becoming aware of it because we talk a lot about this.

1:01:35I'll just give a personal account because I think identifying your triggers is so important. And for me, one of the most powerful, there was a story in Genesis and I had to look it up to make sure it was in the right book where Joseph goes to his boss's, essentially he's hanging out with his boss's wife. She's approaching him and coming after him and he runs away. He literally doesn't stay there and be like, no, he knows himself well enough to be like, I'm going to run away. And so for me, it was immediately averting my eyes. And so this could be on social media. And you know what happens with human nature is that we like to play with temptation.

1:02:13So it's like, well, you know, I'm not really doing the thing, but I like to kind of tiptoe in this temptation a little bit. And so what I did early on was I would immediately avert my eyes. So if I noticed that there was a trigger, I'll use the example of a gym. This didn't happen to me, but let's say I'm in the gym and I noticed something. I'm going to go on the opposite side of the gym and not look. Yeah. Literally avert my eyes knowing. To set yourself up for success. Exactly. Knowing that this is a trigger, just like with a client who's like, oh, you have these issues with food. I'll be like, don't have it in the house.

1:02:39Yes. Right. Because if it's in the house and you see it, you're kind of playing with that temptation a little bit. Good luck, you know, avoiding it entirely. Or you're just going to make it really difficult and terrible for yourself. No, it's such a good point. And it doesn't take a lot. Like this is why the tech stuff you were asking about earlier, Justin, is so valuable because it just sets up your environment to make the choices that you want to make. Yes. Right. The same way that clearing the junk food out of your house goes. And I think, yeah, I just think those are easy wins. And that's where the community is really valuable as well.

1:03:07Right. Like somebody can, even your programs would be another example. Somebody can buy the program and some people will be able to do it on their own. But a little bit of accountability can go a really, really long way. I did, I did anabolic a few years ago. And I remember every time I did a workout, I would put you guys on. because I just, I wanted to have the, like I wanted to have the voice in my head reminding me to do, like don't have fast the exercise, do it all the way through. Yeah, you got five sets of calves, just do it anyways, like whatever it is, you know? Like just, you need those voices reminding you, you can't do this alone.

1:03:40And I think that's why that's such a big deal. And one last thing I'll add with just with social, I think it's a great idea to turn it off, but let's say you don't, you have to, you really have to consciously change your algorithm. So what I would did, and now my algorithm is different, but what I did early on, was if there was something, an ad or a post that I felt was like a little too triggering for me, I would click, and most, I think all social media outlets offer this, you can point at the top right and say, I don't want to see this or I want to see less of this. That's right, yeah. And I made a conscious effort every single time.

1:04:12Oh, wow. And it's still to this day, if I get an ad and it's for something, and I'm like, oh, that's a little, I'll click on, I want to see less of this, take it off. And what it does is it keeps my algorithm. They don't want you to know about that feature. yeah they tuck it away right yeah it's there though before you noticed like the content that was showing up was definitely it changes pretty quick oh yeah however i didn't do it that way i just did it by purely liking all the things i want like i i shifted my entire oh i did both i did both so i said want to see less of this want to see less of this it's a good one yeah now it changes the algorithm quickly here's the kicker though this is how crazy these algorithms are they adjust on the fly yeah so if you if you stop doing that it'll slowly hey what do you think about this why because you'll see a post that okay it's kind of fitnessy maybe slightly but when that's not a big deal and you hover on it for a split second longer than you would on another post yeah algorithm picks it up before you know it so i do it every time to this day now i have to do it a lot less because i did it early on but anytime i see anything like that i go see less of this i consciously do it well think about we're drawing these parallels to pornography and addiction and so with that to what people struggle with nutrition and eating and binging and all those things like that literally this is like a person with pornography addiction is like a person with food addiction walking around with unlimited groceries in their pocket at all times yeah like imagine that you have a client that binges on sweets and snacks like at all times they are literally a reaching into their pocket and they can have whatever they want i mean that's what or different uh don't walk through the aisles that have the stuff that's gonna you know that's gonna play with this yeah but with the phone it's on you 24 7 so i mean i would i would imagine i I still do that.

1:05:52Completely disconnecting has to be the best route at first. I think so. It is crazy how the algorithm will start to move in the opposite direction. And I don't even know how sometimes. I'm like, what's going on here? And it'll be a news thing. Because they use sex to get your attention. Of course. Everybody does it. Yes. So I don't care what news outlet it is, what political content, whatever fitness content it is. Fitness content is rife with sexual imagery. Yeah. I will consciously be like, less, see less. Don't see this. I don't want to see this. And you have to do it constantly. constantly.

1:06:20Yeah, that's really, that's a great piece of advice. Because one thing we tell our clients is the first 30 minutes, go the first 30 minutes without your phone at all when you wake up in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. It just shifts your brain chemistry significantly. And actually another thing. So 91 % of people watch pornography on their phone. And the most popular time to view pornography is from 10 o 'clock at night to midnight. So if you charge your phone outside your bedroom, you literally just stack the odds back in your favor again of just having a good night's sleep and not falling into any temptations late at night.

1:06:51So how long is your, do you have different courses or do you have one standard one? Like how long are they and what does it typically affect? Yeah. So the inner circle is our, um, our community based, uh, kind of model. And so those are for, it's from people around the world. Um, it's less than$2 a day and you get our system, you get the community and you get coaching from us. Um, that's a great starting point for people who just kind of want to get a taste of what it's like to work with us. And I think for people that are either in a more serious situation or they want this resolved and they don't, you They don't want to cut any corners.

1:07:20We have a program called Signature, and that's our coaching package. Not specifically, we've had 1 ,000 guys go through it. Well, more than 1 ,000 now. Okay, good. That's so cool. And I just want to encourage men listening right now that may feel some shame around this. Throughout history, some of the most powerful, successful men have fallen due to lust. Presidents, emperors, the great heroes of the Bible, David, God's chosen one, lust got him. so this is something that i think a man needs to uh face and deal with because i don't care how great you are this is an achilles heel for a lot of men and if you face it um then you can reach your full potential yeah i'd love to hear from you because you said it's uh been around two years something like that what have you noticed and like what's changing your life oh so much oh so much so i mean it's uh dramatically improved the intimacy uh with my we had great intimate you know sex life before way better now what's better about it oh just it just it's um the the act of it is better it's more intimate uh my wife was i always found her very attractive now she's like irresistibly attractive um i feel more respectful in general less object you know objectifying other people yeah um it's changed uh just just quite a bit i mean it's it's profoundly different yeah i would Yeah.

1:08:40Yeah. I was curious because I think when I was here last time, you were around six, seven months. And it's cool. Like I know I've been kind of following a bit of your, like even your faith journey and some of that kind of stuff. Cause it, it happened at the same time, right? Like you, you gave your life to Jesus and. It was shortly afterwards. Yeah. It was shortly afterwards. I just, that became quite aware. I knew this was an issue before, like I said, through the secular data, I was like, okay, I need to stop this. Not good for my brain. It's not healthy. I know what the data is showing. And that was really hard to do.

1:09:06It's so accessible. So whatever. And then through prayer. It was actually Lent. Now I don't necessarily practice Lent, but I'm like, I'm going to give something up. Like, oh my God, am I going to give, this is going to be a tough one for 40 days. And I prayed and I prayed just very humbly and like, I need help or whatever. And praise God, he took it from me. That's amazing. Yeah. So that was like an overnight kind of thing. And I know it doesn't happen like that for most men, but I think he saw in me that there's no way. He's like, I'm going to take this from me, bro. Cause you're screwed. That's at least what i think so at what point did you tell the other guys oh right away no you goes before oh i did yeah even before he was even before he was christian he he talked about it openly we would we've all i mean one thing that's been so such a blessing and i think this is so important back to your point with community is that not a lot of men in their 40s plus have uh relationships with other men that they can share vulnerable things like that definitely yeah we've selfishly it's one of my favorite parts of what we've created here.

1:10:07It's great. We have this business, but we also have this ability to share with each other what we're all going through. And so he would, he would talk about that. He, you know, he was working on it. And I remember even before that, when he would go for a little bit, like, ah, shit, you know, and he was talking about it. And then once he made that switch, like, yeah, it was literally overnight, overnight. Yeah. Different. So it was pretty cool. I'm glad you said that, Adam. I think men need, uh, you know, what's that, uh, iron sharpens iron as one man, sharpens another. There's a myth that men tend to believe, people in general believe this, that I can do anything, I can handle anything.

1:10:42But for men, it's amplified. It's like, I'm weak if I share. I'm weak if I, I gotta do this, I can do this, I can handle anything or whatever. You need other men in your life. And so find good men you can trust who can call you out on your stuff, but at the same time, don't look down on you and support you. And it's incredibly powerful when you have that. Yeah, yeah, it is. And it shows you the power of connection too, right? Because obviously like you had that connection with God, gives more purpose in life. I mean, it's one of the best things we see when guys quit pornography is they start that business they always wanted to start.

1:11:14They asked that girl out they always had a crush on. Like you start to take some of those risks in life because it's very confidence building actually, right? I have had the speculation that what we're seeing in young men in particular, like we grew up in the 90s, pornography existed, but it was hard to get by. It was not like as easy it is now. Yeah. I think that drive, especially when you're becoming a teenager, 14, 15, 16, I feel like that drive forces you to get out of your comfort zone, get out of the house, present yourself to some girls and talk to them, which is not something small. Women have way more discernment than men.

1:11:50So you got to kind of put yourself together. You can't be a loser. You got to learn how to be funny, show some charisma, going to get turned down. All right, pick myself back up. Like that's a great learning process. And I feel like now you got 14, 15 year old young man who are zapped of that. They're neutered because they're at home on pornography. So they don't go out and take those risks. And I know this because we have young, we, we, I remember we had this young guy worked for us a while ago and he talked about going to a party and Adam was like, Oh, you know, how do you talk to girls or whatever?

1:12:19He's like, Oh, well first you find her social media profile. Then you add her. Yeah. If she adds you back, then you say hi. if she says hi back then you can go over go time it's like they're they're not developing the skill of going up and this for a man is a big deal the ability to because you know we go out into the world we're supposed to lead our families we got to do these things like the early stages that I got to go out and present myself to a group of girls and I got to kind of put myself I can't look I can't be a loser I got to kind of like and you you you forego that because you're in your room watching pornography and it's absent energy so you don't have that drive.

1:12:56I'd love to see the data on what you're saying with young men and pornography and video games. I think the combination of just the evolution of that and I know every time we say that guys get mad with the video games. I was a gamer. I played video games but the video games in the 80s compared today is so different. The science that has now gone into gaming and understanding how to keep people addicted to playing for hours and hours is just so far advanced than when I was a kid. And so the combination of that with pornography, it's just like - You just can't win, right? Like I had John Deloney on my podcast.

1:13:36Yeah, he's amazing. Yeah, and he just said, it doesn't matter whether it's video games, whether it's social media, it's your phone. He said, you just can't win. Like you just can't win. Like you really have to guard against or you have to just abstain. They are saying though that what is Gen Z, right? is the generation coming up. They seem to be more aware. They're more aware for sure. There's also revival happening. A huge percentage of them are turning to faith, which is pretty remarkable. It is really cool. It's exciting to see. Yeah, it is. I wanted to go back to something that you said a minute ago.

1:14:06So talked about like a young man being able to present himself, pursue a woman. Have you guys ever heard about the eye tracking study? This is, it's a little bit, it's like eight or nine years old now. This is specifically guys watching pornography. They track the eye movements to see what do guys pay attention to the most when they're watching pornography? Any guesses? The dick. I didn't even think twice about that. Was I right? So that was second. Very close. We knew this because we read an article on this. And we talked about this before. Yeah, a lot of dudes are like, no, it's like, well, that's what's happening.

1:14:40And well, interesting, because this is a fitness podcast. There's a study that showed men who viewed pornography were more likely to have eating disorders and exhibit eating disorder behavior. And I believe it's because of that. It's the body dysmorphia of like, oh, that's what a guy's supposed to look like? I can't compare to that. And I think that could fuel some of what we're talking about of like, oh, these women are expecting perfectly sculpted body with a 12 inch, you know what? And I just can't compare. So, you know, we play it safe or like they kind of go the digital avenue. But the first thing that was the most viewed was the woman's face.

1:15:16Oh, interesting. Not her body. Interesting. the face. So it just goes to show you face pizza. The brains do it goes face. Oh no. I don't know if I could get it with that.

1:15:29Well, I haven't watched pornography in 10 years, but most videos I watched ended with something that showed both of those at the same time. Right. So again, there's science behind that because they know that's what guys are looking for. Interesting. But the face, I thought that was so fascinating that it wasn't the woman's body because that's what you would think. Cause you think this is such a physical sexual thing, but where do you actually experience someone's emotions or where do you actually experience connection well that or you're or you're you're measuring both your brain is saying like is this something someone i'd be attracted to which i think is typical we would look at someone someone's face and then the next thing is comparing yours to theirs if you measure up and it's all subconscious right of course any dude goes into a thing like oh i'm gonna watch this so i can watch some dick i think you watch it but subconsciously your brain looks at the girl right away and goes am i attracted to her or not yes and then the very next thing is comparing the dude yeah do i measure Who gets her?

1:16:17Yeah. Do I measure up? Am I like him? Could I do this? Yeah. I mean, I'm not proud to say this, but like I got so obsessed about like size and all the things that were presented there that I would measure myself because I had to like, I didn't know if I added up or compared. I was an insecure teenager and, you know, like it plays into that stuff big time. Yeah, it does. It distorts things quite a bit. It's quite poisonous. And I think it's understated just how poisonous it is. It's the most accessible, damaging thing that we have right now in society. It's just absolutely crazy, which brings me to the next thing, which is do you feel – my view on this has changed radically.

1:16:57Do you feel that it should be regulated so that only adults have access? Yeah. I mean 100 percent I believe that. Yeah, because of everything we talked about earlier on how this affects minors, how minors are more likely to be targeted and just the simple the simple science that just shows, you know, somebody who watches pornography at a young age, especially with the kind of stuff they're watching right now, the way it positions them for relationship, quality of life. I think it's a no brainer. So there's lots of states now that are passing more age verification laws, which I think is good. It's not a perfect step, but I think it's a really good step in the right direction.

1:17:34I'd definitely like to see more. The porn industry hates it because every time they pass an age verification law, porn use goes down. Of course. And they hate that. Oh, I can imagine. I mean, I'm all for that. I think you should have to put your driver's license in to be able to even access the website. And I think that right away would, it's not going to stop and porn's not going to fall off, but it absolutely would keep the 11-year-old kid. At least a barrier, yeah. It's a barrier, exactly. Yeah, no, I would definitely be for that. Is there even a possibility that really getting enough traction to go the entire country?

1:18:08Some states did it. And then what happens is the largest porn sites will lobby against it. No, not only lobby. What's it called? They'll be like, fine, we're not going to allow. Yeah, they retracted it from the state. Yeah, they did that with Texas, I think, right? Fine, you can't see us in Texas then. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, to which Texas was like, perfect. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. You can't see, wait, you can't see porn in Texas? Pornhub. Well, that's like the site. Yeah, but there's so many others. But the point is that that was their way of, they boycotted like, fine, you're going to ask people for ID.

1:18:41That's them leveraging and trying to get like - They were trying to piss off the adults. The people that are making the decision, like the judges and the people are like, that's right. They're trying to piss them off. Yeah, exactly. And I don't think it worked. I actually don't know where that one landed. But I think, again, we have an obligation as the adults of our society to protect the minors. 100%. So I just think it's a no brainer, especially, like I said, it's literally the greatest predictor that somebody would develop a sex addiction or a porn addiction is early childhood exposure. Sophia, it's also connected.

1:19:09I'm sure you know the data. It's also connected to violence, drug abuse. Yes. It's connected to all metrics of dysfunction in society are connected to pornography, exposure, and use. Yes. And they don't want to talk about that. No. Well, this goes back to how he started this, the controversial interview with Ted Bundy, right? Exactly. That's why he said that, is that obviously all those guys in prison aren't in prison for the same thing. You know, they're all, the one thing they probably had in common is that. That's interesting. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I would like to see more, I'd like to see more, more legislation for sure.

1:19:42But I really do believe the best education happens in the home. Of course. And I love to see parents talking about it more, understanding it more. We were talking about this before we hit record. You know, I, when I, when we were pregnant with our first kid, I didn't explain this fully off air. When we were pregnant with our first kid, everybody said we were having a girl. and for some reason I was like, yeah, I think we're having a girl. I was really excited about it. And then, you know, we had the gender reveal and it turned out we were having a boy. Now I was really excited about having a boy as well.

1:20:12And then probably, I don't know, the next day I woke up and I had this like, oh, this pit in my stomach, like, oh, I'm having a son. I have, again, I don't know exactly what was going on at the time, but as I thought about it more, I realized my dad meant so much to me as a kid growing up that I felt way more pressure having a son. Oh, wow. Because I felt like he was so important to me. I need to be like that for my kid. I was kind of feeling the pressure. And that's something I really had to pray through and talk to God about and kind of work through and be like, okay, I'm going to do my part.

1:20:40And I have done my part to, you know, become a healthy man. And then when we were pregnant with our second, I remember thinking, oh, I've already worked through this. Whether it's a boy or girl, like I'm good to go. And we didn't do a gender reveal. We just found out in the delivery room, we had another boy and I felt it again. And I thought, what is this? I've worked through all this before, but I just realized you can fool one set of eyes. But once you have another set of eyes on you, the more kids, you know, or the more people that are watching you, the more, to me, the more the call there is to be upright, to be a standard.

1:21:12Because, and this is something that I really try to drive home with my clients. I really do believe for fathers in particular, you are the template that your sons will copy and that your daughters will marry. 100%. And so there's a responsibility there when you're having kids. And so I, again, And I love the legislation. I really, my heart is, I want to see the father step up and not just say, hey, there's this stuff online. It's not good. If you find it, let me know. You won't be in trouble. Like those are all good conversations to have when your kids are young. But I want to see fathers who are saying, hey, I struggled with this.

1:21:44I got over it. It was the best thing I ever did to myself. And I don't want you to fall into the same thing. That's what gets me up in the morning and why we do everything we do to help guys quit porn. That's great motivation. I think another piece is that, I think, and men know this intuitively, be the man that you know you would respect the most. And I think if you had a man that was leading you, a boss or a coach or whatever, the man that dedicates himself to one woman who doesn't watch pornography and doesn't, like, that's the guy that you're more likely to respect that man than this, say everything else being equal, but he has issues with those things.

1:22:19And so it's like, you want to be that guy. 100%. Yeah. And again, I think that's why what you guys do is so important. And it's why I said earlier, people that come from MindPub, generally, we know they're going to get great outcomes in what we do because they want to better themselves. They understand how to follow a process. And they generally, you have that deeper sense of, I'm not just in this world to make money and to have a nice car and whatever. Once you're more purpose-driven, you understand the importance of the quality of your relationships. That's the quality of your life anyway. And that, yeah, your kids only get one dad that they're going to really look up to and emulate your your wife only has one husband that she's looking to for safety and trust and everything else to me i just can't think of any greater motivating factor to quit pornography and to really be above board that's awesome you're doing a great job uh the site is deep clean coaching.com forward slash mind pump and we've partnered with you so super excited to be partnering with you yeah dude yeah that's right and i think people that join um through there can get mass 15 yeah thank you guys yeah they get coaching from you they get mass 15 for free that's really cool and i'll just add really quickly sorry i know you're trying to wrap this, but there's a scripture in, in first Corinthians, it says he who sins sexually sins against his body.

1:23:30And again, that's, I think why when people are struggling with this stuff, they fall into erectile dysfunction or even just bad eating habits and some of the stuff we were talking about earlier. But on the flip side, we have so many stories of guys who quit porn. And then like, we have one guy who he always wanted to run an ultra marathon. And when he quit porn, it gave him the confidence to actually train for it. And so, you know, a year later he He ran an ultra marathon. So many stories like that of guys who take better care of their bodies. I was talking with another guy who, you know, he never really wanted to lift weights.

1:23:57He never really got it. But once he quit porn, he like, yeah, he wants to go to the gym and he started lifting weights, taking better care of himself. And now he's got all these opportunities to date and all that kind of stuff. So that's why I'm excited about offering Mass 15. It's not just like a cool, it's an honor to partner with you guys. You guys are so amazing. But I really do believe like there's so much value there because for somebody who's listening that is struggling with this, that wants to get free, yeah this is now a great resource for somebody to not just get free but to better their lives better themselves and really step in everything that god has for them that's awesome man thank you so much and again we're excited to work with you brother thanks for having me guys thank you for listening to mind pump if your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance check out our discounted rgb super bundle at mindpumpmedia.com the rgb super bundle includes maps anabolic mass performance and MAPS Aesthetic.

1:24:50Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a 5-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family.

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