2867: Groundbreaking Technology for Pain, Sleep, Athletic Performance & More Jay Dhaliwal - Super Patch

28:10I'm like possibly. but this is, I go, my question is what if? Right? So it's that much time and energy into it. And then the question is, so now what? The question is, how do I still help my mom? So then I go back to the first premise. If these waves are responsible for the physical response, right? Can I move those waves in her network into normative function? And then what will that do? And what will happen then? Yeah. so now the question is how do you move those how do you move those waves okay so where does that take you so then you're like how do i do this right so i mean my first thought is pharmacology that's what i'm thinking but we've i've tried it that's right that's right yeah we've tried it yeah you guys we tried it for 25 years so you can't i've tried nerve conduction i've looked at it and it didn't it didn't cross the chasm it didn't it didn't the light at the end of the tunnel was always a train like do you know how many times my mom and i felt like wile coyote You're going down that train track.

29:08You think it's daylight, but it's a train. You're like, okay, this is not going to work. You've got to come back. Right? So now what? So the question is, how can you change waves? Right? So first principle says, how are they getting there now? How are waves – put the word brain side to a second. How are waves getting into our central nervous system now? Photons go through our eyes. They hit our optic nerve and they become a wave. Right? There's no projector in our head. Sound waves go through our ears, hit the audio nerves, then become waves. No subwoofers, no mics, nothing in our head. What we're experiencing right now are just brainwaves.

29:55Right? You might be there physically, but for my reality, you're existing in here as a wave. Sure. Okay? How else? Touch. Touch. Yeah. touch. And I don't know if you guys get it, but stuff comes into my head and I can't shake it. Sometimes you get a song in your head or something and it just percolates. And the thing that's renting space in my head is how do blind people read? So that right out the gates came to you. It was a download. It was like, bang. How do blind people read? Braille. How? 200 years old. They're getting the waves to the touch. Braille's 200 years old. It's 200 years old. Oh, I didn't know that.

30:35It's 200 years old. And it's reliable. I mean, they read very quickly. Consistent and reliable. Yeah. How's that working? So then I go down that rabbit hole. How does this work? Right? And lucky for me, in 2010, these guys published a paper out of California, Dr. Julius and Dr. Pupian. they discovered for the first time the ion channels that actually generate that micro electrical current from touch and texture and pressure. And they term it piezo two. So we've known forever that our skin is sending information to our brain. We know this. Yeah. And the cool thing about Braille that you just said is 200 years old.

31:17We've got to have a lot of data on Braille. We have none. You're kidding me. No, no, no, no, no. The exact underlying mechanisms are unknown. Wow. For 200 years. Because it works. Because we're like, who cares? Because it works. Yeah, so who cares, right? Like, do you care how it works? No. Okay, that's my point. Wow. Okay, good point. That's all we need to know. Right? This is the reality of it. Okay. Right? But I'm curious. Like, how is that happening? And there's so much research coming in from all over the world about Piezo II. These guys are just top-tier people. And these things, over the now and last 17 years, I'm going to jump forward.

31:54So piezo2s are proving to be the primary communicators in our body that generate electrical signals, but they're saying they're also responsible for now for also intracellular communication. Like these things are super critical. So any piece of tissue in our body that doesn't have piezo2 is pretty much an unsensitized piece of flesh. If it doesn't have piezo2, it's dead. So piezo2? Yeah, piezo2. So these are ion channels. And this is basically communicating to the brain what's happening. So what the PST2 is, so as soon as we touch, that sensation you're feeling. What are crystals being associated with that?

32:36Is that part of it? A PST2 is just a channel, right? So it sparks because of touch, pressure, vibration. Okay. Right? So they surround the different receptors in our skin. And what are they using, calcium? Are they calcium? Yeah, potassium, calcium. Okay, all the electrons. But it's a microcurrent. Okay. okay and and this is what's generous i'm like this is very curious so at least now i know the mechanisms that are going to eventually send some signal to our mind do you go down the rabbit hole of like uh acupuncture and massage all of it i've studied all of it so gotta be a lot of connection along this way because i'm reading everything right so i read a study coming out of the university of uh british columbia two doctors uh kennedy and english smart guys and they've been mapping the mechanics now i'm studying we're skin receptors right this is where we're at now this is the next thing and they published a study now done in 2002 and they mapped out receptors on the bottom of the feet and their conclusion is this that these receptors play some role in postural stability and balance oh i'm like what's this oh so you see balance you see these receptors Yeah.

33:48I go, I'm on track. Something's happening here. So more research needs to be done. That's the famous line in all research, right? But more research. So I find one of these diagers, he's gone on to something else. And I said, hey, Doc, my name is Jay. I'm trying to do this thing. I read your research paper. You said more research needs to be done. Do you have any more research? Hey, Jay, thanks for calling. We couldn't get any more funding on this scope. So we didn't do any more research on it. They were knocking on heaven's door as far as I was concerned. You see, academia is completely driven by funding for research.

34:24Right. If they don't get the funding, the research stops. Yeah. Why? And not to speak, because I think it's important work with it is very important, but they're driven by the need to publish. Yeah. Not solve a problem. Engineers have a different mindset. We're like, okay, there's a problem. Solve it. Solve it. Right? So I'm going to try to find all the variables as a part of the solution, the equation that's going to lead to an answer that I need. So I'm like, so now I went from brain waves to receptors, and now I've condensed it down to the bottom of the feet. So I'm just going with the wave, right?

34:59I'm not fighting anything. I'm not resisting. I'm saying, okay, wherever this leads, I'm going to go. So now I end up at the bottom of the feet. I'm like, what's here? And the first thing that I deduce is I combine different receptors on the bottom of the feet because that's where the research was. It wasn't that I was so brilliant and said, oh, I'm going to start there. So the first product or the first iteration of the tech was actually stimulating the metatarsal area of the bottom of the foot. Okay. And it was isolated to that. And the first thing that I made was a pad that would go into an insole or a pair of socks that could stimulate that metatarsal spot.

35:37How did it work? And it worked. Wow. What do you mean it worked? How? We could see improvements in balance stability. The first product I made was a pair of socks. And you tried this on mom and other people? Yeah, we have a study on it. Wow. 31 % improvement. So people with issues with balance. With gait, balanced ability, put the socks on and it improves. By 31%. Wow. But more than that, I said, no, no, no, no, no. This is not enough. I need to see the neurological connection, right? So you would think that you're wearing socks, I'm wearing socks. I don't know if you're wearing socks, but we're always socks.

36:09is that this shouldn't be registering as anything consistent in our somatosensory cortex because that's where all peripheral stimulation ends up when we process it first. That's where the signal goes, right? So I reach out to the foremost EEG, QEG expert in the world. His name is Dr. Robert Thatcher. He's retired now. He's in Tampa, Florida. He's written the literal textbook on QEG analysis. And I went down to Tampa and I said, Bob, these socks are going to register a consistent signal on your software. Forget about my software because I can't use my software to validate, right? Because people say, well, this is your software.

36:50You could jerry-rig the software and say whatever you want. So I need to go to an FDA-registered product software that's used by the Pentagon and NIS and all these other amazing places, and he's the guy. I go he's like that's not going to happen Jay just save your money I'm like entertainment you know like I'm willing because this is the resistance I've had you talk about skepticism bro nobody wants to put their name beside it because what I'm proposing is so radical so it's this relentlessness of pushing pushing pushing saying try it try it I'll pay for it try it i'll pay for it try it so he agrees we brain map 35 40 people it's that pattern on the bottom of the feet is consistently registering wow on the somatosensory cortex that's cool statistically significant he's like this is impossible why does he think it's impossible because it's not something that you you don't feel your socks do you no okay it's not registering it's just noise okay he goes this is a very discreet and he goes and it's he goes and it's isolating to the bottom of the feet because the somatic sensory cortex has different regions that speak to different parts of the body that's where the sensation he goes he goes this is impossible i go i know but it's happening that's cool consistently so how did you design the socks like i'm so this is so this is the thing so now it's just math and iteration and why it costs so much damn money because you have to try it you have to make it and try it again and run the eeg and test it again and test it again and test it again and again and again you're literally i mean literally approaching this like an engineer yeah how deep are we right into the socks uh i'm eight now i'm eight now right you gotta make like a cool timeline it's about eight now right there's There's a timeline and there's the casualty.

38:47And my parents think I've lost my mind. My siblings think I have lost my mind. My in-laws think I've lost my mind. The person that I give so much credit for supporting me is my wife. And she's like, you do you. Because she's seen me do crazy things in my life. She goes, if you put your head to it, there's nothing you can't do. She goes, if you want to do this, she goes, I'm with you. That's great. Right? Otherwise, if she said, no, we're done, then I would have stopped. Yeah. Wow. So you're creating these socks. You're changing them a little bit. You're testing with EEGs. You're changing it a little bit.

39:19And it's literally like an engineer does with a product. There's no choice. I mean, how is that not a super profitable product by itself? It is. We sold 7 million pairs globally. Oh, shit. At$40 million a pair. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So we're couping some of this money. Yeah, a little bit. Okay, good. Okay, good. After the fact. After the fact. Then we were like, hey, 10 in. By the time I sold the first one, we were 10 in. wow that's cool because it doesn't

39:49I couldn't let go of the idea yeah I couldn't let go because I knew that if we could do it we'd change it well yeah well you got to be excited you're getting closer and closer now at this point and every day you're getting a little bit closer so you make a pattern and people say how did you figure out the pattern so there's a couple of things. Number one, it's iterative. It's completely unintuitive how this thing works. You think it is the way it is, but it's not. And it's also completely proprietary, right? I mean, there's a lot of time, energy, money to figure out that algorithmic relationship between every sensor in our body has a complex relationship with all the sensors around it.

40:31Right. Nothing happens in isolation. Nothing happens in isolation. And it's happening in real time. And our mind is so brilliant that you got to just get it close. Because what are we doing? All we're doing is calibrating a skin sensation. It's like a tuning fork that reminds the central nervous system what it's supposed to be, right? So if I have a tuning fork that's tuned to 440 hertz, and you have one that's 440 hertz, but yours is 500 hertz, and yours is 300 hertz, if I bang mine, only yours is going to vibrate. Yours is not going to vibrate, and yours is not going to vibrate. That's harmonic resonance.

41:11So all the patch does is when we put those ridges against our skin, is we're creating a tension field around that area of the skin. Those receptors are firing. That's it. It harmonizes it? And it sends that, it collaborates that signal. And our mind, we're not teaching anything to our mind. It already knows it. It's already there. It's pre-programmed. That's what the database told us. That this is normative. It wants to get here anyway. How did you go from socks to patches that you can wear anywhere on your body? Great question. Because you would think, I would think, oh, bottom of the foot makes sense.

41:44You stand on your feet. Of course that has to do with balance. Are you thinking like, are there different parts of the body that are associated? No, no, no, no. But also the 35 people you were testing this with, was this consistent across the board? All of them. Every single one. 35, 100%. Same experience. Same experience. All red string. I'm like, okay, cool. This works. This is great. But what else can I find? The question is, what else, what other patterns exist? So the socks is going. It's great. Mom loves the socks. Her energy levels are higher. I can't get her out of the wheelchair because of entropy over time.

42:20It's just one of those things. But what else can I improve? So I just start finding new neuro patterns. From all this data. From all this data. You're using your software to look for it. I'm using the software. Okay, we have this one. What else is there? Then you say, oh, here's a pattern. It registers a neural network. What does it do? Then you have to go out there and look at mainstream medicine and other research saying, okay, what could this likely be doing? Somebody gives you the answer. It's like, okay, what possible thing could this be? So then you got to work backwards. Okay, these Brodman areas relate to this.

42:53This frequency typically relates to this. Could it be this? This is why this thing is so iterative and so damn expensive because you don't know what you have until you get into it. Right? So then you have these complex patterns that to stimulate it, it's going to require very complex stimulation on the skin to do it. And I know the bottom of the feet is not going to offer me that. It's like, okay, where can I do that? Is it even possible to do it on our larger dermis over our arms or our legs? And this is completely investigation. 2017, right before Christmas, a study comes out of Japan. This is mind-blowing.

43:30these guys published that if there's a sensation on our body and our skin it's permanently imprinted on our somatosensory cortex and it will recall it if that sensation is ever felt again meaning there's a memory there's a permanent memory in the somatosensory cortex of skin sensation not my findings and all of a sudden light bulbs like bing bing bing bing whoa whoa whoa what do you mean and then I'm like and then you have another down but of course when you were kids you ever draw something on your siblings back and ask them what it was yeah how does that work yeah how does that work think about it we take all this stuff for granted but our skin is in real time communicating messaging and memory and recall all the time of course right I'm like okay so what does this mean that means our all it doesn't matter where it is, all I have to do is generate that signal.

44:31How do I do it? Then you go deeper. And then you spend some more money and some more time and some more energy to see how we can collaborate it. And there's no way to knit these complex patterns into the socks, number one. It's not possible to do it. Second thing is suppose we could. When you put the socks on the washer and the dryer and they come out, how are you going to match them? Oh, yeah. There's a practical issue. Yeah. There's a product. Practical doesn't make any sense. Like the average person can't tell the difference between one pattern and another pattern. So how do I do that? So the second thing that we looked for was that came out with sleep and then pain that we could see clearly networks.

45:15Because there's so much research done in the neural matrix of pain. I was just going to say there's a lot. There's so much. There's so much. And the sleep networks are so well studied. so we can triangulate a lot more closely. Yeah. Yeah, this is likely sleep. This is likely the pain matrix. Right. So we just build on that and we start eliminating and start codifying and then we get to where we are today. So that's been the development process of this thing. But completely, and the thing that saved us ultimately was 3D printing. Because when we went to the patch, now I could just 3D print it out and test a lot quicker.

45:45But the first five patches, I had to do with micro tooling. Oh, you're kidding me. The first patch I made, the first patch I made, 1 ,200 iterations of micro-tooling to get it right. Oh, my God. 1 ,200. 1 ,200 iterations of micro-tooling. Because what has it got to do? It's got to work no matter which way you put it. Yeah. So upside down, left, right, yeah. So the complexity of over-engineering is incredible. They go, why don't you – I should have to put it a certain way. I go, nobody will use it. If it had to be directional or located in a certain place, this is dead. Stick to the socks. So the thing, the reason it's so complex, it has to be over-engineered to work no matter where you put it in whichever direction you put it.

46:38That's the complexity of it. Got it. right but that complexity to make requires really precise micro tooling that you have to go over i know because of it because you're not going to know until you make it now so for people listening these are small patches that there's no chemical element it's literally just stick it on and you can see and kind of feel it's almost like looks like braille it's almost like tiny tiny bit braille looks like braille on it's micro ridges yeah it looks like braille on a band-aid and that's what's creating the signal so you know but those so sorry to interrupt but the correction is the patch is not creating the signal the skin sensors are creating the signal the signal is endogenous meaning our body is creating it all the all that the patch is doing is creating tension on our skin and the receptors by putting it against it right and then people ask well yeah i can see you putting in the first time but how's it still keeps working yeah every movement I'm wearing one right now I've already admitted how much I notice a difference in the pain have you done tests or have you done studies where if I were to just push my finger there instead would it do something different or would it do anything so surprisingly there's a lot of research on that acupuncture, massage, acupuncture all of it so the natural thing is when we get hurt we rub our arm we're interfering with that signal That's all we're doing.

48:04That's all we're doing. We're causing another signal just to cause static on it, right? That's why Icy Hot works, by the way. Same thing. It's just confusing. Well, even when you say right now, that's such a, I mean, we do it with my son. Like he hits some, oh, just rub it, rub it, rub it, rub it. But of course. It's not like you're fixing. No, no, but this is, but we take it for granted, right? Yeah, exactly. It's not like someone. What is the mechanism? I didn't read a research paper on that. I was like, you just do that. You've learned innately to do that. Here's another thing. So you guys might be aware.

48:30Something called stochastic resonance, right? Meaning that if you put noise against a faint signal, the signal becomes clearer. It's mind-blowing. It's the stuff we use in signal processing all the time. So if you don't know – if the signal is too faint, put more noise into it in the surrounding area, the signal becomes clearer, right? So imagine – here's an analogy. I don't know if it's right. If you have a piece of white paper and you take a glue stick and you write the letter A on it, you might not be able to see it because it's so faint. But if you put sand on it, you're going to see it. Right?

49:06Very similar. So the more noise you add to any signal, it's going to become clear. I didn't figure this out. This has been around a long time. Right? So that iterative process to that point, yeah, there's been a lot of research that's been done on confusing the signal or entering a new signal. Right? And this is what neural implants do. What do neural implants do? They put them in your spinal column or they put them – attach them to your vagus nerve and they're just zapping the nervous. They're trying to interrupt a signal, right? The concept with the patch is so simple, right? Because what we know is the skin can read.

49:45Braille proved that. So all that matters is what you're writing on it, right? And the evidence says, yeah, it's reading it and the output is there. We can see it in the EEGs. We can see it in the QEGs. And we can see it in the functional output of the studies that we do of what is the actual effect of this thing. Did I know it was going to do this? I had no idea. Because I didn't know what the end result was going to be. It led here by just following what the body was responding to. right there's a natural science to our body that if we listen to it and we agree with it it's like this is what it ends up at people say well what if you're wrong i go then i'm wrong when you did the first studies on actual outcome in other words i see that this is changing the eeg from more pain to less pain yeah but does this actually translate to the person saying i feel less pain when did you start first start that was so getting see eegs are easy to do relatively speaking, right?

50:49Because it's harmless. You can do it. You can measure different EEG readings. You can run analysis on it. But to actually study a live patient base, you need to work with a CRO. You need to work with a pain specialist. Somebody understands how pain works and how it's measured and how it's regulated. And it was next to impossible to get somebody to work with us. Why? Because what I'm proposing is so ridiculous. Nobody wants to put their name to it. So I'm like, okay, this is not going to work. I'm going to pay you more about that. No, it didn't work. I tried that. We tried everything, right? So I'm like, okay, how do we solve this problem?

51:29So again, it's first principles. Who else is doing this? So there's a menthol patch company. It's the largest pain patch company in the world. It's owned by a Japanese pharmaceutical company. And I said, who did their study? and I found their study. Then I found out who the CRO was of that study, and I called him. Called Peter Hurwitz at Clarity Research, and I said, hey, Peter, my name's Jay. I made a topical patch. It's non-transdermal, helps with pain, sleep, da-da-da-da. He listens. He's like, send me something. He goes, I don't know. He goes, send me some product. I sent him the pain patch, the sleep patch.

52:08He calls me two weeks later. He goes, I tried your sleep patch. I'm interested. He goes, but I need to meet you. Are you real? He comes to Toronto. So he's on the East Coast, comes and he visits. We spend the day together. He goes, I can't guarantee it. He goes, but we're going to call Jeff Gooden right now. Jeff Gooden is a professor of anesthesiology at the University of Miami. He did that other study. He was a lead investigator. And I go, who do you want to – I go, that guy. The guy who is the known expert is the guy that I want to do the study. I'm not going to go to some guy who doesn't know anything about this.

52:40He knows the category and he's a professor of anesthesiology at the Miller School of Medicine. I go, yeah, that's the guy.

52:50He calls Dr. Gooden from my office. He says, Jeff, I'm with a prospective new client. We want to do a pain study. He goes, high level explains what it is. and Jeff Gooden says to him, let him know that no matter what the findings are, if I do the study, I'm publishing it. It's going to cost them money. Big risk. It's going to cost them money, but we're going to publish whatever we find. And Peter goes, he says he's going to publish whatever he finds. I go, I hope so. I go, I'm in. And that's how it started. And that was the first study. Was it on pain or sleep? It was on pain and sleep. And how much – talk about how much studies cost to run because people – I've got 16 peer-reviewed studies published, six indexed on PubMed, another three coming this year.

53:39We're about$9 million in since 2023. Now talk about the first results you had in the first study, which was pain and sleep. What did you see? 50 % reduction in perceived pain.

53:55A 70 % reduction in interference scores. is how much is the pain interference in your quality of life? That was the first study. We saw, and this was pain that was over four. Baseline is going down to two, two in a bit. On the sleep study, we saw people reduce their time to fall asleep by about 50 % and sleeping 25 % longer, waking up refreshed. The part that really changed the quality of life issue in the sleep study was this. these are all people that had bad or horrible sleep. At the end of the two-week studies, 85 % have good or great sleep. 85%. 85%. Wow. Before the study, 85 % were waking up three times during the night.

54:40At the end of the study, 85 % are only waking up one time during the night. Wow. Complete change in quality of life. Crazy. Right? And we're like, oh, this is exciting. How pumped was he after he did this? Yeah. He's got to be blown away. He goes, you want to go public? I'm like, no. Because, listen, and not in a bad way. It's like you need to talk to my friends at Big Pharma. I go, no, no, no, no, no, no. I go, this is a whole different deal. I go, this is the path before the pill. This isn't a deal to sell out to Big Pharma. That's not the plan, right? Because that's not aligned with what I'm trying to do.

55:22And I don't have anything against Big Pharma. they solve a lot of problems for a lot of people, but it's not the road that I'm on. People are like, oh, you want to pick a fight with Fibon Karmagos? No. I want to give people options. Drug-free options. So this data, which is crazy, by the way, 50 % reduction, that's pharmaceutical territory. Just for people who aren't familiar. Yeah, it's a big deal. Big deal. Sleep, that's a big deal. And so the first one was observational. And this is what got me on the phone with you, by the way. I mean, Doug pulled this up. What is the reduction on the studies on Advil?

55:54It's not more than that. No. No, it's similar. Yeah, I was going to say, it's better than the menthol patch. That's for sure. Yeah. And this is 24-hour relief. Oh, by the way, the relief is 24 hours. Yeah, it doesn't wear off. And this is not pharmaceutical. There's no drug. And it doesn't contradict with anything you're doing. So here's the impact. 400 milligrams of Advil provides at least 50 % pain relief. Yeah, you're talking about in the same wheelhouse. And you can't keep popping Advils for 24 hours. No. Right. I'm just saying. Yeah. Yeah. Right? So this is the impact, right? We talk about impact.

56:27For me, it's all about impact. How many lives can we impact in a positive way? People that drive heavy machinery for a living, they can't take pain pills. It makes them drowsy. We all know what it does to your kidneys. We all know what it does to your liver. This is not new. This is not data that I'm making up, right? So, but people need relief. And the reason we have an opioid crisis is because people had pain. That's how it started. Right? We will do anything to get out of pain. Right? Because it's the great thief of life. So we do that. Then you take a look at sleep. There's a melatonin crisis in this country right now that no one is talking about.

57:05There will be a melatonin epidemic in the coming months, coming years as big as the opioid crisis. People are giving it to kids. Yeah. And the doses are crazy. It's out of hand, man. You know this, right? Yeah, it's crazy. But why? Because, oh, can't put the kid down. And I'm like, really? That's the answer? Dose your kid with melatonin? That's not the plan. So first is pain. Then you go and sleep. What is the next? Okay. So then we said, okay, it's great. We have the observation study. Then we have to do a control study. Okay. Then we didn't say, no, no. So now you got to pay for a study with a placebo versus - With a control.

57:39Okay. That's done. Okay. Great. Then we did stress. We did the Peace Patch study. 33 % reduction in perceived stress and a 24 % improvement in mental health factors without a pill. Yeah. Big. I was like, okay, great. Then we did that control on that. And then we did a complete RCT study with actual functional movement with a pain patch again. So another, okay. Another one. Right. Because, you know, God forbid the two were a fluke. Right, right, right. And these are all p-values at 001, which is the gold standard of research. That's right. They're like, why do you have to do it? I go, because I'm going uphill.

58:22If I was given the same leeway as nutrition, as supplementation, I wouldn't have to do what I do. Yeah. Right? But because the world is completely unfamiliar with what I'm proposing, the evidence of proof is – and I don't – listen, this is what I chose to do. Jay, it's the only way – Right? It's the only way, right? I would have had you on the show. No, but this is what you're going to do. If you had no studies – No chance. I would have totally blown you off. I'm just being totally honest. because it's so out there and so wild sounding. But you forget that I'm an engineer. Yeah. Right? You're the same way.

58:52I'm like, yeah, don't feed me shit. I'm sorry, but I don't. I'm the hardest person to get over on the math. Which makes you the perfect person to do this. People give me some stuff. This is not real. I see problems in Excel spreadsheets and production. I'm like, yeah, that's wrong. How do you know? I go, this is what I do. That's wrong. You can put a spreadsheet the size of this table in front of me. I look at it for 30 seconds and go, yeah, see that data, that number there? It's off. They go, why? I go, I don't know. You wrote it, but that's off. So I got to ask you this because this is totally radical, totally different from anything else.

59:32The data is wild, and you have six published studies now? No, no, 16 published studies. 16, excuse me. Six on PubMed, three more coming. So reviewed. And so this is all? All peer-reviewed, published, but this is actually better. Sure. So we've presented our research at 25 of the leading medical congresses in the world. I was just going to ask you, because this is a totally new, brand new area of research, medicine, science. But it's growing. Okay. So because of you now, are lots of people now investing time and energy? Yeah, so many. Really? So many. We get calls for collaborations from big pharma, from universities.

1:00:08There's a lot of things happening in the background. and I said, listen, my job and my role is impact. What I'm not going to do is give away our IP. Because like, well, you have to, I go, listen, there's things we'll do and things we won't do. Right? I got here without you. I'm going to get there without you. Plus you're 40 million in. You got to make your money back. There's an economic engine to this, right? But this is the thing. The impact is real because of the response we've had with the product. We have millions of users across the world. The product's available in 35 countries. I tell you what, if it wasn't, because when you sent us, when you guys sent us the patches, I put on focus first because I just think it's fun.

1:00:43So let's see if I get more focus. And I thought I felt something. I'm like, ah, more focus. But you get in your own head. Is it placebo? It's all in your head. Yeah, is it all in your head? But literally, it's all in your head. Right, right, right. And then Adam's trying out the pain one. And I try the sleep one out. And I come back. I'm like, I'm telling you guys, I think this is crazy. And then I look at the study. I'm like, this is wild. Because it's not like a little bit of a difference. No. It's significant. It's a really big difference. It's statistically significant and it's clinically significant.

1:01:13That's where the rubber hits the road. Explain the difference. So statistical significance is a math thing. Yeah, it's like, is it more than 4 %? Is it this? It's with a p-value. So statistical significance is p-value. Do you have enough people to get you a p-value that's strong? And I told the guys, I go, listen, we've got to get 0.005 is what's required, but I want 001. Why? For me, again, it's detached from the outcome. If I don't get the result I want, that just means I've got to go back and redesign it to make it better. People say, what if the study doesn't come back? I go, that's just the answer that this, I didn't design it right.

1:01:45I know that this is possible because of what the EEGs and kids, I know I can get it there. I just designed the right stimulation. So I got to go back and I got to do a better job, right? Or a newer job. And that gives me so much freedom to not worry about what the outcome of the study is going to be. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I'll just do, I'll go make a better mouse trap and you do it again, right? But if I was a public company or I took investments from people, all of a sudden it's a different game. Now you're answering to different stakeholders. I need to make my money back. Just because we have a fitness – because you guys have a lot of different patches.

1:02:22Talk about the athletic performance. So that's the last study that just dropped, the victory patch. Okay. So explain – what does the study show on that? Because it's obviously a fitness audience. So we did this at the University of Arizona with the athletic teams done by Dr. Mark Saker, who's head of – the medical director of athletics at University of Arizona. So we went, okay, where would it be cool to do this study? So now we're getting traction because we have studies, right? Now we're getting people that want to do studies. It's weird how that happened. Right? I'm excited about it, yeah. Yeah.

1:02:49Well, because he was skeptical too. He's like, I go, Mark, but what if you're the guy that brings this to the world with me? He goes, yeah, because I'm not interested. He goes, talk to me. So I spent days with him, walking him through step by step. He goes, this makes logical sense. I go, if it makes logical sense, there's no harm. We're going to get the IRB. Everything's done. We do this. So this is what we found with our D1 athletes. A 5 % to 8 % performance improvement in lower extremity power, knee extension, power output. Wow. And we see a statistically significant improvement in body symmetry, meaning weak side becoming as balanced as the dominant side.

1:03:31Right. We're talking about 5 % to 8 % in elite athletes. Just for people listening. Get this, like, to let that settle in. The best supplement ever would produce, like, 4%, like, if you're lucky, of some kind of a difference. Like, that's like a big, for a D1 athlete, it's a big deal. These guys are, they're already checking all the boxes. They're peak. Best training, best nutrition, best coaching, and the best genetics. I mean, it is what it is. You don't get to Arizona University of Arizona playing on their team if you suck. That's right. You're in the program, right? They're already doing all the big rocks.

1:04:03They're doing everything. and they have for a long time. You can't walk off out of your bedroom and say, I'm going to go play for University of Arizona. That doesn't happen. There's a decade before that of commitment. If we can see the change there, I know it's going to be a much bigger change for the average person. People say, why? I go, it's real simple. We adapt downwards with our neurology because we can't consciously speak to those systems. Right? Who taught us coping mechanisms when we were kids? Yeah. Anybody? Yeah. No. Nobody? And stress is the number one performance robber there is. Yeah.

1:04:43And it's the number one health issue, and by the way, in collegiate sports. Right. It's everything. Stressed out. Right? But if we want to take a sheer performance, this is what we saw. So we've taken this. We've presented it to all the teams in the NFL. Half the teams are on the product. Really? Yeah. we've taken it to dozens of teams in the NBA, dozens of teams in Major League Baseball. We will be in every locker room by the end of the year. Can you stack patches? Yes, absolutely. And there's no, it doesn't take away from the other patch? No, no, because remember, all these networks are firing at the same time anyways.

1:05:20Oh, true. They're all different highways. They're all different. They're all, so. So I'm thinking for an athlete, it's like peace, pain. Focus. You know, focus, ignite. And you're just like, let's go. So the stack that, you know, because you know my friend Jordan, he talks to a lot of elite athletes, right, like yourselves and everybody else. And I go, you want to start your day and physical performance is your thing, put on the boost patch for energy, slap on the victory patch. And if you have a cerebral role to play, put on the focus patch, right? If you're just hitting people, maybe you don't need it.

1:05:50Have you done? I'm sure you have. I mean, I don't know if you've done these yet, but have you done studies on stacking these to see if there's a cumulative effect? There is. There is a cumulative effect. Okay. Why? because neuroplasticity is real. When I started this, everybody thought neuroplasticity was voodoo. Yeah. So, but when you get your neural network into a better baseline, it holds longer because that's the new normal. So over time, what you find is your baseline is higher even without the patch, which is the beauty. That's cool. Right? What we're working against though is life. Injury, illness, stress, our environment is always compromising our neural networks.

1:06:26So what the patch is, is a good restore mechanism. Bring it back to normal, bring it back to normal when we start building on that new baseline that becomes our new baseline over time that's cool yeah it's great that's really cool when i was thinking about this um something came to mind uh did you look into any of the studies with like kinesio tape and like the yeah all of it yes so there's no i don't want anybody to get mad but there is no study that shows any efficacy for kinesio tape wow athletic performance yeah but you still feel something because I believe they're not looking at the right things but this is the analogy that I give you when I talk to sports medicine people sports chiropractors sports physios is kinesio tape has been around 30 years how does it work well kinesio tape is general stimulation general signaling because it's flat we've taken the same contact and had a very specific signaling to it it's the same pathways it's the same receptors it's much more fine tuned this is just specific honed in on that it's more honed in on it like oh Like, okay, now I get it.

1:07:27Like I said, this is so elegantly simple that we try to overcomplicate it and we get – it's not that hard. What's the response since you – how long have you guys been to market? We launched January 14th, 23. Okay, so it's only been a few years. Three years. What's the response been like? It's been phenomenal. It's been phenomenal. Part of it has got to be just convincing knuckleheads like us. Yeah, exactly. That's got to be the – to get in the door has got to be the worst part. But listen, so use your words. to get to the knuckleheads like you, I needed the 9 million in studies. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:07:58Yep, yep, yep. But this is, everything's a roadmap, right? I flow chart everything. Step by step by step by step by step, right? So we launched two studies. First year, we did 60 million. Second year, we almost doubled to 100. You mean sales? Sales. Third year, 200. We'll touch half a billion dollars this year. Wow. And so great repurchase rate. It's phenomenal. Yeah. Listen, if something that doesn't interfere with your lifestyle, it's easy to use. No side effects. No side effects. Damaging the internal organs. You can put it in your bag. It doesn't matter. Take it out. It doesn't expire. You can travel with it.

1:08:39Anywhere you want to go. Yeah. No issues. So talk about the ones you have. You have pain, sleep, athletic performance. What else? Stress. So stress. Mood. Mood. We have immune support. Okay. We have men's health support. So that's like what? Libido, sexual performance? Okay. What did we cover off? There's 15 different solutions. We have Zen, which is Flow State. Zen's like one of our last products and probably one of our best-selling products now. Okay. It gets you into flow in 15 minutes. Really? That's cool. Wow. Yeah, the golfers are losing their mind. God, how cool would that be to do that with Brain FM?

1:09:13Yeah. Oh, yeah. Listen. Oh, the combo, yeah. So my friend Jordan was at this crazy golf tournament this past weekend, and just given the Zen patch I told the call first, they're like, dude, I'm in flow. I'm in zone. That's great. In 15 minutes, it's epic, right? The Assure patch for motion sickness and nausea. There's also, I can also imagine there's no issues with giving this, like with age issues. So yes and no. Oh, good. Okay, tell me. Yes and no. There's no issue, but kids are stupid. They put everything in their mouth. Okay. Don't let them eat it. Yeah, it's a problem. I mean, stick it in the middle of the back.

1:09:49I got a one-year-old granddaughter. Rosie, no. So I'm like, okay, let's just keep it 12 and up. But even 12 and up, what else do we have there? We talk to large sports organizations who are working with young kids, right? Yeah. Supplementation, there's risk. Yep. There's dosage risk. Yep. Obviously medication. Medication. There's a lot of things, right? So here's something that you can actually give to somebody to use. The worst that's going to happen, two things. They're not going to get a benefit. So we have a 95 % efficacy rate. So there's 5 % of people that don't see a response. And then we'll talk about why that is.

1:10:24And some people are allergic to the adhesive. Nothing I can do with that. Yeah, sure. Right? So let's talk about that 5 % and why some people don't see as a good result as somebody else. There's three things from my experience in building this thing that I've noticed. First is where is anybody's baseline? Where are they in their health and wellness journey? Right? What are they dealing with? Right? Are they barely surviving? Are they thriving? or somewhere in between. That plays a role. The second thing that plays a role is something that I call neuro potential. What is the potential of their neurology, of their central nervous system combined with their peripheral nervous system?

1:10:57Got it. How well can it perform? Okay. And the third thing is neuro efficiency. How efficient is their nervous system stimulation? Those three things combined together generally dictates the response somebody is going to get. Got it. And we're like, well, that's logical. I go, I know. But if I don't tell them, then they go, oh, I didn't get the same, response says, Sal did. Well, yeah, well, look at you. Look at Sal. I mean, there's two different people. 95 % efficacy is like you can't expect. Yeah, that's true. So is it more or less common that somebody who is really unhealthy is going to feel the difference or not feel the difference?

1:11:32So the healthier you are, the more likely you are? Or like, what's the correlation? It depends. Oh, it depends. It depends, right? So we don't talk about conditions, right? So we're classified as a medical, as a class one medical device. Okay. Right? So which means general health and wellness for the large part. We could talk about the thing that's changing. So the study shows pain relief. The study shows sleep. But you can't say this is for this disease. Migraine or this is for. No. Right. Right. Why? Because now we're getting into classification of a condition and a disease, which we don't want to be into.

1:12:05Right? So people say, look, what are you dealing with? I always ask, what are you dealing with? Aches and pains? Try the Freedom Patch. Got it. You're not sleeping. Well, sleep is not a disease, right? But if you need better sleep, do this. Stress is not a disease. Right. You can have stress. It's not a disease. We all have stress in one way or another, right? So we're very – because I don't want to cause problems for myself or the company by going down roads that I don't take down. Have you thought about looking at appetite suppression? Yeah, looking at it right now. Yeah. So we know – Because that's huge.

1:12:30Ignite Patch does it. But the study is on right now. So we did a small pilot. It hasn't published. We saw about a 20 % improvement in RMR with the Ignite Patch. And we see – Wait, wait, wait. 20 % improvement with resting metabolic rate? Yeah. so someone's metabolism got faster yeah by 20 percent yeah in in the about hundreds of calories in a study it's it's on right now wow wow yeah yeah that's fascinating that's crazy it's it's nuts and in in part of the the feedback we're getting from the people that study is they're not hungry also yeah wow well that's wild but again until it's published yep we uh we keep going It never ends, right?

1:13:12For me, it never ends. Like when we started, the patch were two inches by two inches. And I found they were too big. So we spent another$6 million to make them inch and a half by an inch and a half. So the money goes fast. It goes really fast. Because, listen, if you commit to something, you have to commit to the innovation. Right? There's an inflection point in every business. There's an inflection point in any industry. And the only thing that fixes an inflection point is solving two issues. The only way to do it is either give new value to your current customers or create new value for a new base of customers.

1:13:45Right. What that involves is innovation. Right. There's a reason there's a new iPhone every year. And everybody buys one. Right. Right. We're all suckers. But the reality is there's some feature there that people want. That's right. Right. And they brilliantly designed it that way for sure. But listen. But even what you guys gentlemen do, right? the iteration of your production, of your messaging, of your commitment to yourself. There's a transformation. I saw those pictures outside, right? You're different dudes now than you were when you started. Smarter, wiser, better. I mean, look at this place.

1:14:24This is a million-dollar studio. Well, it's so fascinating, so interesting. If it wasn't for all the studies, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But the studies are real. People can look them up, you guys. They're on the website. You can find them. They're real studies. The results are legit and they're repeated. We've experienced the effects. And I mean, it works. It's really wild. It's crazy. It's a completely different category. You've invented a total maverick here. Thank you for saying that. And so the last person, so for me, it's always about the best. Make the best thing. I focus on that.

1:15:05Work with the best people. hire the best people, make the best product, right? And so in health and wellness, the last percentile is physicians. That's where people go to get better. So my goal was to be the number one drug-free wellness solution recommended by doctors. So as of this morning, we're over 5 ,000 MDs in America recommending our product from their offices. That's great. Wow. That's cool. That's awesome. Why? Steady, Sal. What you said is the reference point, right? Without that, none of that happens. No, no. True. Right? It doesn't work. Yeah. But you've just created a completely new category that I'm sure other people are going to try.

1:15:44Yeah, they're going to try. They try. No, they come and they try and then it doesn't work. But you've patented your stuff. We've protected ourselves really well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like maniacally well. Okay. And then so they try to copy. If they don't copy, they try to buy us. And so we're not for sale. Will you remain private? Always. That's cool. This is a legacy. That's cool. Yeah, my son and my daughter both work with me. so they're well in tune in terms of what needs to happen here. The goal is to bring drug-free wellness to the world, right? What the world has experienced five years ago, four years ago.

1:16:18I'm not down with that. People need a choice, right? Yeah, definitely. Do what you want, but give me a choice. Just give me a choice, and then we'll go from there. It's the no choice part that I don't roll with. Same. Yeah, I know. No choice. We have a hard time. What are we talking about right now? Well, Jay, this has been awesome. Thank you, man. And I think our audience is going to be convinced like we are remarkable. Thank you. The amount of energy, time, and money you spent to do this really blows me away. That's so impressive. Lots of dedication. That's crazy. It's a lot of time. You're talking years and years and years, tens of millions of dollars.

1:16:53Studies alone are super expensive. But you've literally created a completely new category of treating issues. and symptoms. This is a complete new category. Well, listen, you're so kind to say that and thank you. And it is a category of one. There's nothing like it. This is the reality. 85 % of people in any doctor's office in America are there for one of three reasons. Some kind of aches and pain, poor sleep, low energy. Let's solve that. Let's make impact, right? And so meeting all of you guys and Sal Taddy on the phone, I mean, this is you guys are the cohorts that we want on our side, right?

1:17:31To bring this message to the world because it's all education yeah it's all awareness and education right so well let's do it man let's get it out i appreciate you coming on and i and i know that i told you you come on and i question you and have you talk about the study but you know like when we talked on the phone you were able to provide all that stuff and it wasn't like i made it easy but you showed me all the stuff yeah no fluff man yeah dude so great job well thanks but for me it's like listen it's just like let's talk about it yeah yeah right because i don't know why does that do that i go i don't know yeah but you're You're not BSing.

1:18:02This is legit. You've got the stuff to back it up, the data to back it up. That's the part that people don't understand, is you've got to do that. Yeah. Right? You've got to do that, especially when you're thinking, well, here's this magic patch. Yeah. And by the way, there's nothing in it. By the way, it's like, oh, shit, here we go. Yeah. Like, you know, people are like, oh, this is not a Harry Potter patch. Like, this is science. There's no hocus pocus here. And, like, read the research. Nobody reads it, by the way. Yeah. No, that was the first thing I looked at. Yeah, we do. No, you do. But the majority of people ask me, they go, how does this magnet thing work?

1:18:35I go, I don't know. I didn't make that. I made this. Actually, I wrote this. Just this. But the category is blowing up. So did you hear, would Nike launch that shoe, the mind shoe? No. Oh, yeah. They got those little stimulators. Yeah. I did that 15 years ago. You guys are so old. Right? Dinosaur. But they still don't get it down. And you know what they don't have? Research. Do you still sell the socks or do you sell it off? Absolutely. Oh, so you do still sell socks. We do great. Yeah, I think that's cool. That's awesome. Yeah, it's awesome socks. It's really, I just love seeing the change on people.

1:19:07For me, that's the thing, right? It'd be like, you know, he goes, oh, you must be, you know, made so much money. And I go, we put it right back in the business. Yeah. There's no other choice. Yeah. Right? If we want to get this to where we believe it can be. I mean, you pioneered something is what you've done. You really pioneered something. Well, the first guy through the door always has a bloody nose. So I got that too. Well, hey, man. Very cool. Thanks for coming on. This was really, really awesome. Really appreciate what you're doing. You guys. And like I said, one of my favorite things about what we do, regardless of how stubborn I can be, is I love getting my paradigm shattered.

1:19:42I love getting my mind changed. You totally did it. Thank you. So, yeah. Great job, dude. Thank you, dude. Great job. Appreciate you guys all. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs.

1:20:18With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support. And until next time, this is Mind Pump. Tired of your car insurance rate going up, even with a clean driving record?

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