2912: SS-31 Peptide Benefits: Why Ben Pakulski Says This Is the Most Exciting Peptide Right Now

14:22Mind Pump Team:It doesn't make me anything different other than like, oh, maybe I look different in the mirror. Confidence is built through challenge. It's built through struggle. It's built through overcoming obstacles. So if the reason we're trying to build muscle is because we want to be more confident, we want to be, I don't know, look better, well, go do the work, right? If we're building muscle because we want a longevity benefit, go do the work, you know? Like I don't know that just muscle is what we're after. Yeah.

14:45Ben Pakulski:How do you communicate that well because or effectively because we know this, we've all been working out for years and we train people for years and I know you've done the same. And if I had to list all the benefits that came from the fitness journey, very little of those benefits are actually the physical end result. So many of the benefits are just the whole process. Person and becoming in the process. Yeah, I mean, you know, fitness is such a microcosm of, I guess, life. Very simplified, you know, like it's hard. It hurts. I suck. I got to get better. You know, I got to show up. I got to be disciplined.

15:22Ben Pakulski:And the carryover to everything else is profound. But how do you sell that to somebody when someone just is what's sold to them so much is the benefits are that you look good?

15:32Mind Pump Team:Yeah. Well, I can go a lot of different directions and it depends on how long you got. But I would say the society we live in is extremely difficult mentally, cognitively, emotionally. A lot of emotional stress, a lot of mental challenge, but physically very, very easy. So evolutionarily, we had a lot of physical stress and not a lot of psychological stress, right? Some psychological stress. But even if there was psychological stress, it was always coupled with physical stress. So what's happened is there's a disconnect, like an evolutionary disconnect, where now we're having so much psychological stress and no physical challenge.

16:06Mind Pump Team:So the body becomes this metabolically disconnected organism where the brain is constantly in a state of fight or flight and the body sitting on the couch or sitting in the car, you know, reacting to someone cutting you off. And so we have to intentionally curate hard things for our body. Otherwise, the body will break down. I think that that's my stance. It's like we have to intentionally curate challenges. We have to intentionally curate struggle to make sure the body and the mind can be in harmony. So when I'm stressed, whether it be from work or from driving the car and getting cut off or whatever, moving my body is the fastest and most effective way out of that stressful state.

16:43Mind Pump Team:So if people learn that and they can operationalize that, that's what changes your life. So most people who are trying to change a psychological state, maybe it's inadequacy, maybe it's insecurity, they're trying to change that by changing the way they look. It's not the way you look. It's the movement to get the way you look that changes the psychological state.

17:01Ben Pakulski:right we're trying to out think our way out of can't do it no no you can't think your way out of that those types of things it's interesting i i've been really digging deep into a lot of that data on anxiety and stress and i have kids and i have two older kids one's 20 one's 16 so it's been interesting for me for a little while and when you look at it and you know i've heard people say this like oh we're just uh we're so stressed today or the stress is different today and i've heard that argument before, but then when I think back to previous generations, like, you know, you're living through the great depression or world war one or world war two, like, like that's way more stressful.

17:37Ben Pakulski:That's way more stressful. I don't have enough.

17:39Mind Pump Team:We're just less resilient.

17:40Ben Pakulski:Or yeah, like what's the difference. And so what, what it brought me to was, was research on what is protective against stress. And, uh, what I keep coming up to is, uh, is there a purpose behind the stress? Do you feel a mean, you feel meaning behind it? Because if you're, uh, if you're doing something stressful and you feel like it's worthless stress, it's very stressful on the body. But if you're doing something like look at volunteers, I love looking at research on volunteer workers who go out and get poor sleep and they're out there serving people, helping people and they're doing it for free and they just feel good.

18:14Ben Pakulski:And it's like, those people are under a lot of objective stress, but they don't, they're not reporting lots of stress because they feel a lot, a high sense of purpose behind what they're doing. Man, you nailed it.

18:23Mind Pump Team:So that's where I was going to go. And I think the best example, maybe the most extreme example, maybe the best example is Elon. Elon Musk wakes up every day and like, how do you CEO three companies at the highest level in the world, sleep four or five hours a night and still wake up and do it every day? And you're like, that's, it's remarkable, right? So he's driven by purpose. You know, it could be some pain because I know he had some, some trauma as a child, but like, it's gotta be a deep purpose. Right. So yeah, you nailed it, man and my i have a 19 year old stepson and he's going through some stuff right now and i'm like man you just need something bigger than yourself like he's like i have anxiety i have this i'm like every man has anxiety at some point in their life maybe at all points in their life but they're willing to outwork that they're willing to realize like hey i have no choice i have to get up and do the work i have to get up and grind i have to have a re i have to have a reason to get up otherwise i'm just gonna sit in my anxiety i was i figured it was i think it was um either mark twain somebody was writing recently or I was reading about it recently and they were saying something like literally every man is living with anxiety living with inner torment but you just get up and go about your life and then you find the things that are important and then the anxiety fades away because you start filling in all those gaps and deficiencies that are causing the anxiety if you're anxious because your health is bad well we have to fix that if you're anxious because you're broke we'll fix that by making money if you're anxious because I don't know your relationship status is bad or you're insecure you're insecure like you start fixing those problems if you're willing to do the work whereas my uh my stepson's just sort of like sitting at home waiting for it to fix it itself I'm like man you got to get up it's a tough one

19:55Ben Pakulski:yeah as a father and and seeing that in your 19 year old stepson are there things that you have implemented or you communicate to the younger ones like are there's like this you do you think about that a lot I think about stuff like this a lot like yeah as my kids grow up them face

20:09Mind Pump Team:challenges and hard situations now because they just have to realize that they're just don't rescue them.

20:15Ben Pakulski:Yeah, exactly.

20:16Mind Pump Team:They have to figure out that they can do it on their own.

20:18Ben Pakulski:Is there an example you can think of that you can draw on though? That's happened recently where it's just like, there was an opportunity for you to do that. Like, are you seeking out and putting in those situations? Are you just aware of the opportunity of, Oh, here's a time where I can.

20:30Mind Pump Team:Well, so the example that stands out to me with my kids is sports. So like they don't always win and sometimes they don't always get the call. Sports are so good for that. So good for that. I think every kid should play sports. You're like, hey, man, you didn't make the team. Or you didn't get – my son right now has just started in football, and he didn't get the starting job as a quarterback. And you're like, how are you going to deal with that? Like, how are you going to react? And so the natural inclination is like, ah, you know, put the other guy down. I'm like, no, no, man, he did great. He pushed you hard.

20:58Mind Pump Team:Honor that. Respect that. Shake his hand. Next year, come back. Beat him. How are you going to do that? You know? I have to get better. So my son's doing his sprint training every day, and he's doing – like, you know, he's doing all the things. And I'm like, that's his decision, not mine, right? I'm not going to be the one who's like the angry dad yelling at my son to do the work. I was like, no, man, that's not me. Like my job is to facilitate what you want to do, but you have to make the decision to move toward the growth.

21:20Ben Pakulski:Yeah.

21:20Mind Pump Team:Yeah.

21:21Ben Pakulski:You don't want to steal it from him. You know what's interesting about that? Almost like one of the worst things that could happen to your kid when you put him in sports is he's excellent at them right out the gates and is always super good. Like how do you – that's actually not a blessing. could potentially be a big curse that they just go in and crush all the thing that changed my

21:41Mind Pump Team:athletic career as a young one i got cut from the 12 year old all-star team baseball team and they're like sorry you know you're not good enough to make this team i was like okay thank you and i was hurt and they brought me back as the last taxi player which basically meant i had to be on the practice team and i was like okay i'll do it i'll take it and within a couple weeks into the season i was like i was hitting lead off most hits on the team ended up mvp of teams. Like that's cool. I was cut and I was dejected and they gave me an opportunity. And I was like, I'm never going to, I never want to experience that again.

22:12Mind Pump Team:And that took, like, I was a pretty solid baseball player from 12 to 17 when I gave it up for bodybuilding. But that was it. It was that event. And I remember it clearly. Cause I was like, I'm never going to let these coaches down. Those coaches were hard on me. I was 12 and I was like, go keep going. I'll take it. And ever since then, I'm the most coachable guy in the world when it comes to interacting with coaches because I remember that. Like nobody could be harder on me than those four guys where it was four coaches on that team. They beat me into the ground. I was like, I don't care. I'll keep going.

22:41Mind Pump Team:So that was a good learning lesson.

22:43Ben Pakulski:I don't think there's anything better than sports for kids for that reason. I mean, the reason why I bring that up and ask that is I've got a seven-year-old who has no interest in sports whatsoever. And it's so crazy for my wife and I who sports are on 24-7. We play sports all the time. Like it's a part of our life. and he's just Legos, puzzles, reading, you know, all the, he's such a great kid. And like, but we, and I just slowly try and introduce it. Now I know we both were late bloomers. So as far as getting into sports, so there's this hope that eventually, but I think about this a lot because I know what it did for me.

23:15Ben Pakulski:And I know what a great, it's such every day from practice to games, to cut, to, there's so many lessons within it. And if you, as a dad, if you're aware of that and you see, it's like, it just presents these great opportunities. So I always think like, what am I going to do if he does it? Like if there's a possibility that he's just.

23:32Mind Pump Team:I would just create some, some man standards in the house. Like, Hey man, men can defend themselves or, you know, our, our Schaefer men defend themselves. And we'll do jujitsu and we, we run, you know, or like we lift or something, you know, create standards that like, this is an interesting thing that maybe you guys haven't thought about. You probably, I don't know anyone beyond my grandfather. I don't know their names. I don't know anything about them. Right. Anything older than my grandfather. Um, but think about our kids. Like we are going to be the first generation where there's going to be a time capsule for the rest of time.

24:04Mind Pump Team:We're going to have a digital fingerprint for the rest of time. So it's your opportunity now to sit back and go, what legacy do I want to create for the name of the back of the Jersey? You're the start, man. Like there may be guys who've come before you. And I always think like, I come from a very strong line of men. I don't know who they are, but I know where they were the strongest of their generation or their strongest of, of the species, right? Cause they had to survive. so like you get to be intentional about what you start now as a legacy for your family it's like what traditions do i want to create what standards do i want to create for my kids and like so you know i want my kids to play sports but it's not just like hey pick any sport you want i'm like hey we gotta have standards we have to have daily standards around we're gonna do this every day and so i have i have what i call four master skills and they have to study and do something for their four master skills every day and that started you know as soon as they're sort of able i'm happy to share those but it's basically like i'll share what they are really quickly.

24:54Mind Pump Team:So it's master your body, master your finances, master communication, and master your emotions. Because I believe those are the four most important things for young people. Now you can make an argument, there's other stuff, but master your body, master your finances, master communication, and master emotions. And so all of my kids are focusing at some level on doing some stuff for that. And it could be little, it could be like, hey, did you do 10 push-ups today? Or like, whatever, but like, we're gonna do something every day. Why? Because I want in the back of their mind when they don't know what to do with themselves, when they don't like, I'm bored.

25:25Mind Pump Team:Have you done your master skills? So we just have a low level standard, but you got to do something.

25:29Ben Pakulski:I want to, I know it's been a little while since you transitioned out of pro bodybuilding, but you've been one of the more successful people to do so. And I can't imagine the challenge that a, well, any pro athlete, but a pro bodybuilder in particular would have having to change their identity, I guess, to go from this really huge muscular, or whatever guy competing to switch into something else. And I see that often as a very difficult transition for people, but you seem to have no problem doing it. Like what, talk about that a little bit and changing your identity to going from bodybuilder guy, competing on stage, you know, getting big, strong, shredded, you know, prep, you know, all that stuff to moving out of it to like what you do now.

26:15Mind Pump Team:Yeah, I know what comes up for me as you say that is bodybuilding was always something I did. it wasn't something that I am. And I know a lot of people have themselves, their identity wrapped up in what they do. And for me, it just never was. So, you know, even until I was a pro bodybuilder and past being a pro body for many years, I never told people I was a bodybuilder. I love to train. I love to grow. I love to work hard. Like I didn't see myself as a bodybuilder, you know, and maybe that's some version of inadequacy. Maybe it's some version of like, I just never was my identity. So leaving bodybuilding almost felt like a relief for me.

26:51Mind Pump Team:Oh, okay.

26:52Ben Pakulski:Yeah.

26:52Mind Pump Team:Yeah. So bodybuilding is something that I needed. You know, I had a pretty rough childhood. Bodybuilding gave me a lot. Bodybuilding gave me everything, to be honest. Everything I have to this day, bodybuilding has given me. So leaving bodybuilding felt more like I could go back to being who I truly am rather than the armor that I have to grow to overcome my deep level inadequacy, deep level insecurity. So yeah, depending on how deep you want to go.

27:15Ben Pakulski:Well, do you feel like you had a good relationship with it all the way through? Or do you think that this is mature? Why is you talking back about it?

27:23Mind Pump Team:You know what I'm saying? In the beginning, I don't know that I ever had a bad relationship with bodybuilding. I just wanted to be better. Bodybuilding for me was about, the contest was a pageant. It was about who am I becoming? How much am I growing between each contest? How can I improve? So by the time I was 17, I went to the Olympia in 98, which was Ronnie's first win. And I was 160 pounds. And I was like, this is all I want to do. And from that point on, the standard for me was like, I want to look like Flex Wheeler. I want to look like Jay Cutler. I want to look like Doreen Ace. And until I'm there, I'm nothing.

27:56Mind Pump Team:So it wasn't anything other than this pursuit of I'm going there to the top of that mountain. And I was never worried about my placing in a show. I was never worried about anyone else's feedback. Like, oh, you got big arms, small arms, small calves. I don't care. Until I look like that, I'm not there. So I was so goal-driven. that it was just like consumed me. So I don't think I had a negative, like a lot of people talk about having body dysmorphia and bodybuilding. I'm like, I don't think I had that. I think I was just like obsessed on achieving my goal and obsessed with being the best version of myself in the gym.

28:30Mind Pump Team:And you could say that comes from, so when I talk about my childhood, I come from a family of obese alcoholics. Everyone was lazy. Nobody ever finished high school. They just blamed everyone outside of themselves. And I hated that. And I felt like I was never like them. I feel like I just don't feel like I'm like these people. And I didn't want to be like those people. So it became part of my identity to move away from that. I'm like, I don't want to be like them. So I'm going to do the exact opposite of what they would do. And that drove me. So like, maybe that's why I set this goal. I'm like, that's the exact opposite of what my family is.

29:01Mind Pump Team:Yeah. So when I left bodybuilding, to be honest, even now, I feel more myself now than I ever have in my entire life. Even as a young kid, imagine like feeling like you're part of this, this family of obese alcoholics, you know, drug addicts, gambling addicts, and not feeling like you belong there. Like I can't be myself because I was very judged. My mom had a problem with alcoholism. So I was always sort of mistreated, treated like the step, you know, the stepchild. And yeah, so I was never able to be myself. So going through bodybuilding earned, I think I earned my place in this world in bodybuilding.

29:34Mind Pump Team:That's why I wanted to be the best. I'm like, I'm going to go here because I'm going to make something of myself.

29:38Ben Pakulski:yeah i'd argue that it was part of you finding your identity and it's more of a which makes sense to why to sal's point why you seem to have this kind of almost easy transition out of it because you didn't wrap your identity around it right it was more so i proved to myself i'm not that other thing yeah and you've already proven that yeah and it was probably some sense of relief of like well i've done i'm done proving it i don't need to prove anything anymore and so i want to back up so you you were you you went to the olympia 98 and 160 pounds first of all what

30:07Mind Pump Team:brought you to the olympia so i didn't have a good relationship with my dad growing up like my dad uh looking back on it he's my dad's a wonderful man um but my parents had separated and uh didn't have we didn't have a lot of contact um so when i was 15 i wanted to play sports so i moved high schools to go live with my dad because i had to be in the in the location i had to be close to the school so i'm living with my dad just him and i and uh we didn't really talk we didn't know my dad I was not a very good communicator. So I started training. And I was like, hey, Dad, I'm going to train at this gym just up the road.

30:42Mind Pump Team:Can you sign me up? He's like, yep, I'll pay for it. No problem. So I'm training at this gym. And I didn't want to be a bodybuilder at all. No interest. I just wanted to train because I was being recruited to play D1 baseball. But when I get to this gym, there's a lot of bodybuilders there. And I still was at this point, didn't want to be a bodybuilder. I opened up a magazine one day. I think it was Muscle & Fitness, Mid-Up & Flex. And I saw an ad for the Olympia. And it was in like six weeks. and I was like, hey, you want to go? I left it open on the kitchen table. He's like, you want to go to this?

31:09Mind Pump Team:He goes, sure, let's go. And it was six weeks later and I went and we drove down. It was a 10-hour drive from Toronto. And I was like, this is all I want to do. I just knew.

31:19Ben Pakulski:That's so random. How did you know? Because 160 pounds is way different than eventually what you became. That's wild that you could even see that I want to do that. You're looking at that at 160, thinking that's even possible. And you're focused on baseball too. So how did that just shift for you all of a sudden? I don't know, man.

31:36Mind Pump Team:I was in the gym for six months, maybe 12 months at that point. I think I have a bit of obsessive personality. So I was training twice a day before school and after school. I just wanted to be the best. And I just wanted to be fast. So like what I found in baseball, and I was stupid. I didn't have any coaches or anything. I was just like, if I do this stuff, I feel faster. So I went to the gym twice a day and the same thing every day. I was like, I'm going to go to this because it makes me faster. I was like, great. So I was making decent progress starting to see some some changes in my body and then i don't know man when i got to i can remember it as clear as it was yesterday like exactly who i who i was looking at well you know ronnie coleman they were wearing these suits ronnie coleman was wearing a blue suit and he was imagine a bodybuilding a blue suit bigger than life that's back when they had them

32:21Ben Pakulski:all tailored to be yeah ridiculous and it was so small right like the olympia now is this big event

32:30Mind Pump Team:Back then it was like this little hall. It was a joke. Was it in Vegas? No, it was in New York City. The next year it was in Vegas. 99 was in Vegas. Oh, wow. I went to that one too. So there's a funny story. In 98, I went to, it was in New York and I was 160 pounds. And the next year I went back and I was 230.

32:49Ben Pakulski:Whoa, you went from 160 to 230 as a kid in the first year? How old were you?

32:54Mind Pump Team:17.

32:54Ben Pakulski:Holy shit. How did I not know that? So you're obviously still natural at that time. Natural, yeah. Okay, so this is when you knew you had genetics. for eating maybe. So you were 230 in fat? No.

33:06Mind Pump Team:Yeah, I was probably, I was under 20%. I was probably 16, 18%.

33:10Ben Pakulski:Yeah, that's a lot of, a massive amount of muscle. 50 pounds at that age? That's insane. 70. 70 pounds at that age. Did you know, did you know as you're training and gaining all that size in a year? Because that's insane. Because I think that's how much muscle I gained my whole life. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Were you like, oh I think I'm good at this I think I have genetics did anybody say anything to you like hey dude

33:35Mind Pump Team:so here's a funny story at the 99 Olympia some man comes up to me and he says hey I'd like to write an article for you on you I write for one of the magazines on you and you're just some kid as one of the future mass monsters of the sport

33:51Ben Pakulski:now my red flags will be going up hold on a second you want to talk to a kid so we did a little interview

33:57Mind Pump Team:I never saw that article, but like that was sort of the first validation for me. Like, oh, maybe I'm on the right track. Cause in one year I was.

34:04Ben Pakulski:Did he recognize you from the previous year or something? No, he just saw me. He just saw some jacked young kid probably. Yeah. I'm sure. Wow. And you had no, and so at that point, did you think, well, I got good genetics or.

34:16Mind Pump Team:I didn't care, man. I just, I, so, you know, call me stupid. When I started this quest from like the 17 year old one 60 kid, I just didn't have any doubt that that's what I was going to do. So I was like, I'm going to do whatever it takes. There's no like, maybe I'll do it. Maybe I won't. I'm like, I'll train six times a day if I have to. I'll eat fucking dog food if you tell me I need to. That's where I'm going. So I didn't care for anyone's validation. I wasn't looking for anyone's validation. And then the next year, I think it was early 2000. I was walking around one of the first shows I ever went to locally in Canada.

34:51Mind Pump Team:And I got my first bodybuilding contract. I got a contract with MuscleTech. Is it before you competed? Way before I competed. What? Because you were just walking around.

34:59Ben Pakulski:You have to look crazy if people are doing this to you, dude. Yeah. Well, how did that happen? So you're walking around.

35:04Mind Pump Team:It's like a supplement expo or something? No, it's like a bodybuilding show, you know, like a local show where they have like some exhibitors set up. Yeah, yeah. And because MuscleTech was a Canadian company, they were based there. So this is either late 99 or early 2000.

35:15Ben Pakulski:Is this when they had, what's his name? Celltech. Greg Kovex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Greg Kovex. You guys know who that was? Who, who? He was giant. Remind me?

35:22Mind Pump Team:400 pounds, Greg Kovex.

35:24Ben Pakulski:Ooh. This guy's behind the neck pressing four plates. If I see him, I'll know. I know. Oh, fuck. Yeah, if I see him, I'm sure I see him. He was in all the muscle tech. Well, as I say, I mean, I was taking cell tech around those years, so I know I'm taking all that stuff. Yeah, so this is Greg Kovacs, K-O-V-A-C. I have a feeling. The name already is ringing a bell. He was just a giant. He was like a giant human being. Was that their first big signing? Was he the first big face of them? Yep.

35:50Mind Pump Team:And then were you to follow? No, I was a kid. but like I was very happy to be getting free supplements I was going to say what was the contract just free supplements whatever I wanted because the company was new so I would literally just pull up whenever I wanted you remember when

36:02Ben Pakulski:that was such a big deal though we talk about this all the time if you would have asked us way back in the days if like we could just get free subs we would have probably done that so imagine how that was the year

36:10Mind Pump Team:before I went to university for the first year and so when I went to university I had this muscle tech contract I had the muscle tech team athlete jacket and I had closets full of cell tech and they used to have mesotech bars and mesotech protein that closet's full. So I would trade. So like, that's how I got through college, man. I was like, yeah, I'll trade you. I got some, I got some.

36:28Ben Pakulski:Totally. Oh yeah. I totally remember. See him on the right there next to Cutler. Yeah. I remember him. Yeah. He was, he passed away, right? Yeah, I did. Yeah. But he was, I mean, he was so strong. I mean, he benched six, seven plates and just insane.

36:43Mind Pump Team:Yeah. It was absurd. Yeah.

36:45Ben Pakulski:Insane. Okay. So you got, you get this contract. You never competed. You didn't even look for it. You're just walking around. And you're how old at this point? 19. 19? Yeah. And do you remember how big you were at this point? Probably 240. Okay. Do you, at what point is someone coming up to you and saying, was it them or they're like, you got to compete? Or are they more interested in like, no, we just want this jack kid? They just want the jack kid.

37:07Mind Pump Team:Because I was going to university. I was like, yeah, I got to go to school for four years. So, yeah, I never made any commitments to competing.

37:13Ben Pakulski:When you look back at those two years of training, what were you doing right and what were you not doing right?

37:20Mind Pump Team:Taking advantage of newbie gains, I think. And I was just training all the time. And I was very blessed. I'll say like, circumstantially, I went into the, I just happened to be within walking distance of the only bodybuilding gym in Toronto. I could walk there in 15 minutes. Winter, sun, summer, doesn't matter. I'd walk, you know, twice a day. And I met these two guys, brothers, who were way further ahead. they were much farther ahead than me in bodybuilding. They didn't necessarily teach me how to train. They taught me what hard work was. And these guys are still friends to this day. And without those guys, I wouldn't have been the man I am.

37:56Mind Pump Team:Like they just set the standard. They're only a couple of years older, but they were just so much bigger and they worked. So when I moved to the US, and I tell this story often on my podcast, when I went to Venice, I was expecting professional bodybuilders to be really hardworking people.

38:11Ben Pakulski:I'm laughing because I've heard so many stories of - Dude, I was ready to go. With the Southern California bodybuilders. I'm ready to go to war, man.

38:16Mind Pump Team:I'm like, let's fucking go. I'm going to kill these guys. And I'm like, what was that? I'm not going to call it names, but I was like, this is a workout? I was like, what are these guys doing? Is this a joke? So these guys, these two brothers, Vic and Dan, they taught me everything. They taught me what hard work was. And they used to just destroy me and destroy each other. And so we were not right sometimes. We were doing crazy stuff. so like when i went to the u.s i was like oh like i can hang with these guys i'm better than these guys i would do two sets to everyone for everyone i was training against so that was always a real point of it was really an advantage for me like psychological advantage for sure but physical advantage my conditioning was way better my strength was way better because like that that was my standard i just like like nobody would keep up you know there's a couple bodybuilders throughout my career that kept up but not many who are the ones that you that you branch train guys like that i never have to train branch i call them on so many times i never want to do it oh really no you know because we had that like public conflict which is sort of contrived but i was like dude come do one work out of my gym we'll do my style then we'll go to your gym all the year style whenever you want didn't want to come that's okay um i didn't know that yeah i didn't know that um roly winkler okay fucking freak really yeah well i know he looks like he's

39:30Ben Pakulski:got crazy genetics but he trains like like a maniac stupid strong and ridiculous endurance okay ridiculous endurance okay yeah um i don't think he trains like a maniac because he'll take

39:40Mind Pump Team:10 15 minutes between a set but like when he gets going like that guy's output is nuts wow yeah he

39:46Ben Pakulski:probably has the greatest output you ever train with cutler i know he also he had a fast pace

39:50Mind Pump Team:okay um yeah those that really is the only bodybuilder i was like like i had to work to beat him usually i didn't have to work to beat people i could like goof around a little bit and be a be a cocky prick yeah there's a couple bodybuilders you watch them you watch training

40:07Ben Pakulski:videos of them and you just see there's certain like gaspari isn't one like just crazy work ethic he's just a maniac in there uh platts like just absolute i think platts was i mean i don't take

40:17Mind Pump Team:anything away from because he was like my early eye looking back at it i think it was a show like watching those videos i'm like i could do that like the output and the the escapades i'm like i'm not sure if he was actually thinking he was working hard or if it was actually just like and putting on a show because I'm filming. I don't want to take anything away from the guy. But watching it, I was like, it's a bit of an exhibition, you know? Well, because if you watch Dorian Train, who I have the utmost respect for, it's crazy, but it's not this exhibition where I'm trying to like scream at the camera.

40:50Mind Pump Team:I'm like, just chill out, man. Like, do the work, you know?

40:53Ben Pakulski:Dorian's impressive because his gym was, it was just this basement. It was like a, like small. It was like a small little junkie. Have you been there? I'd never been there. Yeah, it's a shithole. It's perfect. It's like dark.

41:05Mind Pump Team:The gym I started training at was also a shithole. Where was? So the one I started training at that I don't want to say I used to walk to. Yeah. It was called Mac's Gym in Toronto. And the guy was an 87-year-old Japanese man who owned the gym. His name is Mac. And he had welded all the equipment personally. So nothing was personally welded. Wow. Yep.

41:22Ben Pakulski:That's like one of your dreams. Talk a little bit about the culture because we brought this up on the show. So we love to communicate to average person. Like, you know, as trainers, like I'm not speaking to the fitness fanatic. I love fitness fanatics. We could talk science all day, the hardcore stuff. But I like talking to the average person because they need help. And one of the fears that people have, especially women, and it's less these days than it used to be, but still, is the intimidation factor of going to the gym. And what I try to communicate to these people is like, the more hardcore the gym, the better the culture.

41:55Ben Pakulski:Like, you'll walk in. You could be a total beginner. You could be a 65-year-old woman. You could be 300 pounds, and you walk in, and you put out some effort, and you'll get experienced people coming over just trying to help you and coach you for free. Talk a little bit about the culture because I think we're missing that, and I think it's such an important aspect of fitness. I think it's one of the most valuable aspects of gyms.

42:17Mind Pump Team:Yeah, it's a great thought, man. So my gym is like that. My gym is an amazing culture where, like, everyone knows your name, and you're trying to meet the same people all the time, and we're trying to make each other better. I was blessed in the beginning, exactly as you say, to be like the kid who was dumb and like a deer in headlights. And I just had some old dudes be like, hey, man, don't do it like that. Do it like this. Try this way. I'm like, okay. You want to laugh? You guys will laugh at this. My first nickname in the gym, Little Screamer Boy. True story. Who gave you that? True story.

42:47Mind Pump Team:Guys at the gym. Oh, my God. Because you're just a screamer boy. I just would go and work hard. Yeah, that's my first name. And they loved you. I bet they love you for it. Like this kid over here is killing himself. He's awesome. So man, my habit was, you know, I go to failure on the bench press, but you get stuck. So what do you do? You roll it off. And I'm like, what are you doing, man? Ask for a spot. I'm like, I didn't want to bother anybody. So I'd roll it off. Roll it off your chest. Stupid.

43:13Ben Pakulski:But those are great. That's such great, man. I was just, literally, I've been talking about this recently on the show because, you know, we worked in big box gyms and we've been in the gym industry. We were in the gym industry for a long time. And so you start to see trends in the gym industry, and you see these trends where they seem to come out of nowhere. You're like, what is it about this trend or what's going on? Why is it attracting so many people? And what's going on? What's happening here? And CrossFit was one of these. CrossFit came out of nowhere. And these are crap hole gyms. They have barely any equipment.

43:45Ben Pakulski:They're typically don't even have AC. The programming isn't great, but super popular. And it's not that they're deadlifting and squatting. I know that they kind of brought those back into popularity. They're partially to credit for that. It's the community. They understood community. And it's so funny because it wasn't that long ago I was watching. I've seen pumping iron at least a million times. But I was watching it. And one of the things I like to do when I watch it when I was a kid is I would watch the background. Because you've seen it so many times. I know what Arnold's going to say. I know what's happening with Lou.

44:16Ben Pakulski:But I'd watch the background. The weird dude in the back doing the funny curls when Lou's working out and this guy over here doing this thing. and I realized like there's no music playing there's no music in the back they didn't even play music in the gyms Joe Gold wouldn't allow music in the gyms he wouldn't allow music in the gym oh interesting I didn't know that no

44:33Mind Pump Team:so Joe Gold started Gold's gym sold it to someone and then to Ed Connors and then he started World Gym never allowed music in the gym

44:39Ben Pakulski:that's right it was about the culture well we've talked about that but I never knew if that was like a rule or just wouldn't want

44:48Mind Pump Team:oh interesting if you did anything crazy kick you out like he kick everybody you've got terrible temper yeah yeah yeah but so you know

44:57Ben Pakulski:when i'm as i'm watching this i'm like thinking about it i'm like one of the worst things i think and i know people are gonna hate this because fitness fanatics don't care but i think one of the worst things that we've done is wear headphones in the gym we're in our own little bubble by

45:11Mind Pump Team:ourselves you're right and people won't talk to you because you have the headphones on nobody's

45:14Ben Pakulski:talking to each other i'm in my own space now i get it if you're like super hardcore fitness fanatic, you know, cause that's your thing. That's me. When I go in there, I don't care. But most people are not fitness fanatics and most people need to develop a relationship with fitness that lasts forever. And it's the community that does that. And there's no opportunity for that when we're all isolated in our own little bubble and what used to be a culture thing. Yeah.

45:39Mind Pump Team:I hear you, man. I would say that if you and I trained together, for example, I would hope that the conversation, the dialogue that we have between sets would be the thing that makes you better in life and in the set, you know? Spoken like a trainer, bro.

45:53Ben Pakulski:Right. So many people are trying to like,

45:55Mind Pump Team:you know, block everything out. The dynamic you create should be the thing that makes you better. Yeah, I think that's important. Like, again, maybe not everyone's training with other people, but I think everyone should aspire to have at least one training partner. What a gift.

46:08Ben Pakulski:When you look back at all the guys that you trained with, Was there anybody that you hit it off so much with that you trained consistently with for a while? I had some great ones.

46:15Mind Pump Team:No pros, man. No pros. Oh, no pros. No. I didn't have any great pro bodybuilder training partners.

46:20Ben Pakulski:Was that just because they didn't live up to what you thought?

46:23Mind Pump Team:I didn't get along well with any of the open bodybuilding guys. That's so funny to me that you don't. You have such a likable eating over. The 212s. Were you more of an asshole before we hung out?

46:32Ben Pakulski:Were you a prick? You probably were. Be honest. You probably realized how much harder you trained than everybody else, then you lost respect for everybody and then you wore that on your sleeves.

46:41Mind Pump Team:I wouldn't disrespect anybody. In fact, I would love to train with anybody. Yeah. But if I'm training with you, I'm going to make you know that you're inferior.

46:52Ben Pakulski:Okay. By any means necessary, right? By any means necessary.

46:56Mind Pump Team:So I think that may have come across in a way. A little intimidating, a little bit. But yeah, by any means necessary. So yeah, no, I think I just, I think, you know, when you're interacting with 10 to 12 or 15 of like really alpha men who are competing for each other's salary and competing for each other's trophies, you're not going to be friendly, man. So I was close to Cedric. I was close to Sean Roden. I was close to Brandon. But because we traveled together later in the career, I was close to Dexter. But I am close to Dexter. We traveled together a lot, you know? But like as far as training in the gym, I don't think I trained

47:37Ben Pakulski:So who, so like, who was the first guy that obviously wasn't a pro bodybuilder that like you were lifting and you went, oh, this, this is someone I want to latch on to or that I would work out more with like, who, who, who was that to you? So I'll say this.

47:51Mind Pump Team:If any of my old training partners are listening, I wasn't always nice in the gym because it was all businessman. And like, if anyone slowed me down, they weren't going to last very long. So training partners were the people who are willing to show up, do the work and not fucking complain. and there wasn't a lot of those i would burn through those pretty quickly so throughout my career i had four guys total who like were long-term training partners yeah and it would be like hey man you want to do lunges yep hey man you want to do extensions yep hey man like all they would say the whole fucking workout is yep yep i was like perfect because i don't want to hear about your fucking problems i don't want to hear about your life i don't want to hear about what you ate i don't want to hear about your knees being sore if you can't show up the train don't show up.

48:34Mind Pump Team:Yeah. Um, so I was all business and that wasn't always received very well by men who have giant egos. Yeah. So, um, yeah, there's a couple of guys, man. So like Vic, the early guy who's, uh, you know, massive influence on my intensity early. Um, there's another amazing story behind that one. I'll share this story cause it's worth sharing. So 2013, I got second at the Arnold classic. I don't know if you guys would remember that, but Dexter beat me the night before. Uh, yeah, night before 6 PM, uh, Chad Nichols was coaching me for the show. He comes in my room. He's like, dude, nobody's beating you in the show.

49:06Mind Pump Team:He's like, you're fucking dialed in. You're so dry. You're going to crush everybody. So, you know, Chad leaves. I think it was like 830 or 9 p.m. I start cramping. And my lower body starts cramping. You know, my abs start cramping. My throat start cramping. So you're like, okay, this is bad. So I take quinine, which is anti-cramping, quinine sulfate. and cramping starts to come down but then i started vomiting and then i start diarrhea and then vomiting and diarrhea at the same time every 45 minutes through the night so it started at 9 p.m this is the night before night before every 45 minutes and i would try to sleep i couldn't eat anything because i throw it up so literally every 45 minutes on on the clock every four of them it's either diarrhea or vomiting and so i'm you know i'm like fuck i'm My tan's all fucked up because by that point you're all tanned, you know, tans all, because I'm sweating in the night and I'm cold and it's just a disaster.

50:07Mind Pump Team:And then it's like, uh, I think 10 30 the next morning. And I'm like, I haven't eaten anything since six the night before. And I was like, I can't do the show, man. I'm sitting laying in bed. I'm like, can't stand up. I'm dizzy. I'm like, what do I do? Should I start drinking water? I'm like, Chad, what do I do? He goes, oh man, like, I don't know. Like, see how he feels. Cause I couldn't even eat banana. I couldn't eat anything. And then I get a call at 10 30, uh, from maybe it was 11 from Vic, who actually was from his wife. This guy was my earliest training partner. And she's like, hey, she's talking to my wife.

50:35Mind Pump Team:And she's like, hey, don't tell Ben, but Vic can't make it for the show. He's going in for testicular cancer. He's got testicular cancer. He had to go in and have his testicle removed on Monday. So I didn't know that. I wasn't on the phone. I meant my wife was on the phone. And so I'm laying in bed. And I'm like, what's going on? She's like, Vic can't come. I'm like, tell me why. And so she's like, he's got to go in for testicular cancer to get his testicle removed. And so I'm like, in that moment, I was like, fuck it. Let's go. I'm like, I'm sitting here complaining about a sore belly. My best friend's about to fucking lose his testicles.

51:06Mind Pump Team:I'm like, let's go. I'm like, call the tanning lady. Let's put on a tan. Pull my hat over my eyes. Walk down. I'm like, let's go. We're going on. And I was like, Chad, stand behind the judges. If I pass out, let them know what's going on. I didn't eat the whole day. I got fucking second that show. Like most people don't know that. Like the night before. Even after the night show. So I did the morning show and the night show. Even after the night show, I went to dinner. I couldn't eat. It's like the whole day I went to that show. So you see me at that show, I'm like, I got second. So I just looked OK.

51:33Mind Pump Team:But imagine not eating for all the time, not drinking water. Not filling up.

51:36Ben Pakulski:It's a disaster. Now, what caused that? Was it just the -

51:39Mind Pump Team:I have no idea. OK. So the last thing I ate had a burger and fries at 6 PM. So you could say it was diuretics. You could say it was because I was cramping. You could say it was the food. Like, I don't know, man. Wow. I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. It was a rough night. And I just remember going on stage. I would walk off stage. I'd put my head down. and everyone's like, you all right? I'm like, fine. Like, leave me alone. But if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have gone on stage.

52:01Ben Pakulski:Oh, man. To take second and to be that probably flat is crazy.

52:05Mind Pump Team:I tried to eat a banana. I couldn't eat a banana.

52:08Ben Pakulski:Wow. I believe, wasn't it Jay Cutler who won, he won one of his shows. It's the famous quad stomp photo. And I think he had like the flu the day before. Something. And it made him shredded. Like he came in real dry. I think you found a mistake here. Sure, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Yeah, that's what happened. That's a sick photo. When you're working out with these guys, are they ever leading? No. As I say. So are they really a workout partner? No, this is business for you. This is your job. That's what I mean. I mean, I think we're all like that, too. Nobody's leading my workout. Is anybody leading your workout?

52:39Ben Pakulski:No, no. If I'm working out with someone. I don't want to work out with somebody that gets something to work out. I know what I do. That's what I meant.

52:45Mind Pump Team:I think if you had someone you trusted, you would.

52:47Ben Pakulski:Yeah, maybe a coach or someone was coaching me. If I hired you and you were coaching me through it, then you could. That's what I mean. I think with fitness fanatics, it's not so important. I think culture is still important, but it's less than it would be for like the average person shows up and they're consistent because they're part of this community. And I think we've totally lost that in gyms. Can you, like all these crazy workout partners and situations where you've pushed like that, are there workouts when you think back, because what, thousands, tens of thousands now? Yeah, what's the dumbest workout you've ever seen?

53:21Ben Pakulski:What I was going to say, are there workouts that stand out? like that one. Definitive. Do you have like workout?

53:27Mind Pump Team:Of course I do.

53:28Ben Pakulski:Oh my God. So there was a period

53:30Mind Pump Team:where I had two training partners, one for the first hour, one for the second hour. I did that for about three months. To trade out?

53:35Ben Pakulski:Yeah. So I would literally

53:36Mind Pump Team:walk into the change room. Tag, bro.

53:39Ben Pakulski:It's your turn, dog. He's on one today, just so you know. Holy shit. Give him some water. Did you imagine that?

53:46Mind Pump Team:I'd walk into the change room, change my t-shirt, come back out for round two, so I had a dry t-shirt, ready for the second workout.

53:51Ben Pakulski:Oh my God.

53:51Mind Pump Team:That was pretty intense. I would, I don't know, frequently, I would often do 20 sets of one-arm dumbbell rows for a workout. Just when I go and do 20 sets of one-arm, like heavy as I could, like, you know, 200, 220-pound dumbbells, just like 20, 21.

54:07Ben Pakulski:Was this because back was like an emphasis for you and back thickness or whatever? So you're like, I got to hit this?

54:11Mind Pump Team:You know, man, I learned too late, again, maybe right at the right time, but had I learned how to train earlier, I don't think weak body parts would have been a thing I just I fell into the dogma of like you know if Dorian Yates look at his back and look at the exercises he does you should do those too or like Ronnie Coleman does this so you should do that too so I got really strong and I was dead lifting 800 pounds I was doing bent rows of five plates I was very strong and I didn't grow my back and then all of a sudden somebody said to me like hey man you're just doing the wrong exercises for your body your body structure is different than these people why don't we find the ones that actually direct tension to the lats instead of just mindlessly moving weights and when i finally found the things that worked everything started to grow wow so that was just a big paradigm shift for me that's where the whole business that i run came from it's like i went through this entire learning phase of like how do i actually understand what this muscle is supposed to do for my mechanics that's the difference in what i do now versus what most people do it's like your body's extremely different than mine which means you're you're set up your exercise selection should be different so that's what the whole business is based on once i I figured out the exercise that actually fit my body.

55:18Mind Pump Team:My body started to go up. So that, okay.

55:20Ben Pakulski:That ties back to what I asked you earlier that I didn't feel like we got to finish was you looking back those first two years, you build all this muscle. We talked about some of the things you did right. What would you say you did wrong? Like, so knowing what you know now, if you could go back and tell 17 year old kid, Hey, train more like this or less or more. Hard to say, man.

55:38Mind Pump Team:Cause, cause I, the thing that I did really well was I learned how to train hard and you could argue that training hard is should be first or you could argue that training well should be first you know training hard for me was great it caused some injuries um caused some challenges um but i managed to get through them um yeah so like i'm not sure if i would have said change anything looking back on it like hindsight it's hard to change because it played such an important role

56:04Ben Pakulski:right so like maybe you were doing everything the right way but but the character yeah say what you from that still played such a massive role in it. At what point, because obviously you've got crazy genetics at an early age, at what point do you incorporate performance-enhancing substances like anabolics? So I did my first cycle probably going in the summer

56:27Mind Pump Team:before university because I was about to do a show. So I would have been 19. I was about to do a show. So I was dieting for a show. I hired my first bodybuilding coach.

56:36Ben Pakulski:So up to this point, you haven't actually done a show yet. You've just been training to get bigger. So you're like 240 or something like that.

56:42Mind Pump Team:So going into university, my first university, I was 260 with abs.

56:47Ben Pakulski:You know what? This is so good to communicate because people think steroids do what they don't. And this is just not the case. Look, we've worked in gyms long enough. You put 70 pounds on before taking it. I know more than that. I was 260 there. There's people that can take all the steroids in their life, and they'll never eat it. Dude, I knew a guy. I'll tell you a funny story, dude. I used to own, I was part owner of a gym down in Palm Desert for about a year. And it's relatively close to Mexico. So I'd have trainers that would drive down there, come back with a bunch of gear or whatever. And I had the sales guy that worked for me.

57:23Ben Pakulski:I won't say his name, but I had the sales guy that worked for me that was just taking, I mean, he was kamikaze, dude. He was taking so much stuff. It was just whatever he can get his hands on. And he just looked unhealthy. I mean, he might have gained 10 pounds of muscle. I'm not exaggerating. But he just didn't look good. And he was doing all, and people are like, is it fake? Well, no, I know it's not fake because I use some of the stuff, and I know other people use some of the stuff, and it was totally different.

57:47Mind Pump Team:There's one guy that you guys would know in the fitness industry who's the same idea. I went and met him probably 2012 or 13. I'm like, that's your fucking stack? He brings out his notebook, and he shows me. He's like, this is what I'm taking. I was like, what? I'm like, you're taking this, and you look like that? I'm like, geez, something. I don't know. That was the first time I got it. This isn't for you, dude.

58:07Ben Pakulski:give it up man so you did your first cycle you're 260 what was the cycle and what did it do to you i got really strong um i think i was taking 400 megs of test 400 megs of eq

58:24Mind Pump Team:i was on it for probably 12 weeks maybe a little longer than that and so i know the the foundation of it was testing eq i think the first six weeks was eq or no the first week week is test in DECA, second six week is test in EQ, and I would have rotated through something else on top of that, whether it meant Diana Ball or it would have been... There was another monkey, which I forget. But yeah, 12 weeks, maybe 1 ,000 milligrams in total. Just because I had a coach at the time, he was like, hey, take this. I was like, all right. Yeah, I remember this sounds nuts. But I remember Skull Crushers with the straight bar with two plates.

59:08Mind Pump Team:Nuts. I was very strong, very strong. Like I couldn't even, even during my highest level of bodybuilding, I wouldn't do that.

59:16Ben Pakulski:but that first cycle was nuts i can't imagine you at that peak with d-ball because i know what i know the first time i did d-ball it was the most insane thing that every time i came back to a body part i was lifting 10 20 pounds more yeah every time my first cycle of trend was like that i was like this is not right yeah it was i scared i remember scaring myself being like this is way too fast Like I'm this strong already. From what I've read about Tremolone, because in the early days, people were using Tremolone at like 170 milligrams a week, 200 milligrams. And I'm seeing people online, 600 milligrams, 1 ,000 milligrams.

59:54Ben Pakulski:That's fucking nuts. And they're talking about all these psychiatric issues from it. Is that true? Were you guys using that little back then versus?

1:00:02Mind Pump Team:I remember it was 30 milligrams per milliliter. And I was either doing, I started off with half a milligram, excuse me half a milliliter three times a week so 15 milligrams three times a week that was my starting dose so 45 milligrams 45 milligrams a week yep or i may i think i probably would have gone up to like one ml three times a week that was my that but that was like i was by that point i was um competing i would have been 24 25 at that point uh-huh yeah yeah how's the first show go so we do that you do the stack i won huh i won yeah yeah i won um it's funny because I just never thought, I never doubted I was going to win, man.

1:00:39Mind Pump Team:I just always knew that if I did what I needed to do, I would win. Yeah, so I won my first show, and I had a mentor early on, and he passed six weeks after my first show. I had a heart attack. And so I was scheduled to do another show six weeks after, and I was like, fuck it, I'm not doing it. I felt like I had lost my mentor in the sport. I was like, I don't know that I want to do it. And then three weeks before, maybe it was like two weeks before, I was like, ah, let's just jump in, do it anyways. So that qualified me for the provincials, which is the same as a state show. That was the next year.

1:01:11Mind Pump Team:Won that one. Next year, skip a year, I went and did the Canadian Nationals. I lost by one point. I also did the North Americans. Lost by three points.

1:01:20Ben Pakulski:You actually break that long between shows early on? A year.

1:01:23Mind Pump Team:Oh, wow. Yep.

1:01:24Ben Pakulski:Because that's not really common. Normally early on when you're kind of climbing the ladder, you're doing shows like it's -

1:01:28Mind Pump Team:I just had no desire to do shows. I just wanted to win. So if I'm not ready to go do that show and win, I'm like, I'm like, go on. Yeah, yeah. I get that. Yeah, I'm not going. So, yeah.

1:01:37Ben Pakulski:How was, like, one of the hardest things, I say that even, so I only ended up doing six total shows in my career. And I still, to this day, don't think I ever brought the best version of me to stage. Peeking. It's hard. It's harder than what people realize. Like, there's many times where a day before or two days later, so I'm looking at myself going, whoa, this is what I wanted. It's hard to do. Did you hit that out the park right away? or did you feel the same way where it took a long time to really dial that in?

1:02:06Mind Pump Team:I think still to this day.

1:02:07Ben Pakulski:Okay, so you feel the same way too. I feel like I've never, no one's ever seen the best, like on stage, the best physical.

1:02:13Mind Pump Team:Yeah, I had some good ones, but not like. Yeah, I think, you know, I had kids in 2012 and 13, so I started hitting my peak in 2012 probably would have been, 2012 and 13 would have been like as I was just coming into my peak. Yeah. That's where my son and my daughter were born. Yeah. So like had I continued, I would hopefully keep getting better. looking back at now man i think the absence of peaking is just stupidity like you're just like doing dumb shit like looking back at what i know now i'm like if you just stay consistent and you're actually in shape it's so easy yeah to you know now i peak guys it's very easy yeah uh because what i tried to do in the past like oh you got a salt load and then you got a water deplete and you got a carb load and you're like ah man just like keep it the same like keep it simple a carb load is fine but i think people are at least i over complicated it yeah um because you get so many different pieces of advice.

1:02:59Mind Pump Team:You're not sure, like, am I ready? Am I not ready? Should I take this diuretic? Should I do this water load? I'm like, I don't know. So you're just always trying new things, you know?

1:03:06Ben Pakulski:Yeah.

1:03:07Mind Pump Team:So it's great to learn, but not great to get the, get the consistent outcome. Yeah.

1:03:11Ben Pakulski:How common are the GLPs now in bodybuilding? I got to imagine that they're using them in pre-contest for dieting.

1:03:19Mind Pump Team:I don't know. I don't really keep in touch with a lot of bodybuilders. I'm honest, I haven't been to a show in, I went to the Olympia a couple of times, but not much.

1:03:27Ben Pakulski:A guy like you, would you look at because you know i know this this is for everybody's always look back and go we were so much you know uh hard you know it was so much harder for us but i mean uh looking now if you saw a bodybuilder using glp in a pre-contest would you be like pussy well because that's like the hardest part dude is like you're starving yourself yeah but i love that

1:03:50Mind Pump Team:right so i think i think the thing that bodybuilders miss is like the hard work is the surprise man sure the the discomfort you like the pre-contest diet i love i agree with that i

1:04:00Ben Pakulski:agree there's something there's something to be said about knowing that most can't do this you can't do this yeah i just i there's there's something about i mean this is the the people that scoff at bodybuilding as a sport because oh it's not a sport the fact that it's there's never a day off you compare that that's the thing that it makes it like a sport is that name me another sport where you don't get a day off like it's the every thing that you intake is accounted for every workout can't be missed and there's something about knowing that most people can't do that it's just i feel like um if i wasn't suffering i wasn't enjoying it like i always like i was either

1:04:39Mind Pump Team:suffering in the gym or suffering because of the diet like i wanted i wanted to suffer i loved it yeah it's yeah you could say something about my mental well-being

1:04:49Ben Pakulski:yeah but i think that's i think that there's something about that's what makes you successful at it is that you versus being the person who complains about it yeah you have to lean into that you have to i don't know how you would make it in a sport like bodybuilding without you wouldn't make it very far i wouldn't think unless you find a way to enjoy that place all that intensity now like as you're well he's zen now yeah i know you're the zen guy you're so chilling

1:05:12Mind Pump Team:You learn that it's a tool. So I had a lot of aggression as a young kid. I had a lot of, yeah, I guess just aggression is the right word. I had a lot of energy. And I was told that that was bad. I was told that you're a bad kid. You're misbehaving. You end up in jail. And I didn't realize it was just a part of me. It wasn't all of me. It was just a part of me. And so I sort of put it away. I thought I was a bad person. I compartmentalized it. And I was like, oh, I'm a bad person. I made it about me. and what I realized is that was my gift, but nobody ever told me that. Man, when you learn to use that, nobody else, not a lot of other people in the world have that level of intensity, that level of commitment, that level of compulsion to move towards something, and if you learn to wield that tool, that weapon, it'll take you far.

1:06:00Mind Pump Team:If it controls you, you'll go in the wrong direction, you know? So I learned through my bodybuilding years, through many other years, whether it be meditation or plant medicines, that that's just an amazing part of me that I don't want to deny, but I don't need to let it come out every day. You know, it's still there. If I want to access it, it's still there. And I think it's a superpower, but it's not useful if I'm having a conversation. It's not useful if I'm, you know, reading to my kids at night. Like that's, that's not, so I just always think of like these different versions of myself and this different level of arousal that I get to kind of play with.

1:06:32Mind Pump Team:You know, I get to be really intense what I need to be, but I get to be really calm and centered in what I need to be. That's the premise of my business. The business is sort of taking the shape of what I call the warrior and the monk. So obviously the warrior, self-explanatory, is like I want to be able to run, jump, play, fight, all of it when I need to at the highest level. And then I want to be able to be the lighthouse in the storm and be calm.

1:06:55Ben Pakulski:So do you do martial arts now for those bursts of intensity? No, just training.

1:07:01Mind Pump Team:So it's funny. I would love to do martial arts. I actually did a lot of Muay Thai after retiring and I love it. But just finding time in my day now. So like my kids are my top priority. So like I'm taking to every sporting event that I can. So it takes up time. It takes up time. So I still got my workouts in. I still get my cardios in. But trying to make time, like, you know, I feel like I had 20 years of selfishness. Now it's time that I'm no longer the top priority. But once my kids are off to university, I'm sure I'll go back and do something like that.

1:07:30Ben Pakulski:Tell us about your gym. How's that going? And you mentioned the culture of your gym a little bit earlier. So let's talk about that.

1:07:39Mind Pump Team:So when I'm there, I know everyone's name. I know what they're working out that day. I probably know what their wife's name is or their husband's name is. I know what their dog's name is. I know what their kid's name are. So it's a culture of making everybody better. Like I want to understand you. I want to understand why you're in the gym. I understand why you're struggling. I want to understand what your mental challenges are. And I want to make you better. And because I've done it at a high level, most people will give me the time and be like, hey, I'd love to take some advice or ask me a question.

1:08:13Mind Pump Team:So that creates a standard. So like everyone sees me doing it for them and it lets the guard down, right? No one comes in with a big ego because they know they're not the top of the totem pole. Like some people are, but there's people, you guys know this, the people at the top of the totem pole generally aren't the ones with the big egos. It's the ones sort of like - Totally. try to fight fighting to be there so i'm very blessed to have a lot of really great athletes in the gym and we kind of just keep this culture of uh you know supporting each other caring for each other and making everybody better as as a common value have you had to bury anybody in a

1:08:45Ben Pakulski:workout in there as i can there it is have you had to humble any members as often as i can because i would imagine so what happens too when you're that guy right he has that reputation i I imagine there's always somebody who wants to challenge that. It's funny.

1:09:00Mind Pump Team:So two years ago, I think it was two years ago in June, I tore my labrum in my hip, my left hip. I did it during a leg workout. And ever since then, that's the worst bodybuilding injury I've ever had. That sounds horrible. It's horrible. And ever since then, I can squat and I can deadlift, but I suffer for three or four days. I limp for three or four days afterwards. So my squatting and deadlifting, since I did that, I'm like, ah. So I'm like, I've asked about, should I do surgery? should I not do surgery? Because I don't want to stop the training. But like, yeah, I love to go, man. But if I go literally any amount of deadlift, any amount of hard deadlift, I just limp.

1:09:36Mind Pump Team:I look like an old man. So my training in the last two years, I'll have to admit reluctantly, it's taken a bit of a backseat. It's not the same as it was before. But ironically, I shifted into doing a little more sprinting. And sprinting feels great. It doesn't hurt my liver. So you can sprint and your hip's okay. My hip's okay. But if I load a deadlift, even if I put a bar, like a plate on a bar, my hip's gonna hurt the next day wow so how'd you hurt it what were you doing leg press i was trying again leg press bearing somebody yeah oh god really how much weight do you have on there yeah but going too deep or going too deep right like my gosh shit a little uncontrolled you know just getting getting stupid because you're training with somebody's got to be you oh you

1:10:16Ben Pakulski:got to show them up damn it you're not 25 anymore right you're at 25 anymore and i even went and got

1:10:21Mind Pump Team:stem cells injected into my hip and didn't make it like I have no pain, but unless you do certain things, how often are you able to go in there to your gym? Oh, well, most days.

1:10:33Ben Pakulski:Oh, awesome. So you're in there all the time. Yeah.

1:10:35Mind Pump Team:Most days.

1:10:35Ben Pakulski:Oh, that's great. That's gotta be so awesome. I feel like, uh, at some point I want to own a gym. Just, you know, if we ever retire, which I don't know if that'll ever,

1:10:43Mind Pump Team:no better name than sales. I think it's a pizzeria. Come on in.

1:10:51Ben Pakulski:Take a page out of Planet Fitness. But no, it's just the environment. I mean, we actually have trainers here now that train clients. They're so good. And I love walking out and seeing people working out and training together. And it's just the vibe, dude. I just love it. Absolutely love it. So it's got to be so great to be in there.

1:11:11Mind Pump Team:Yeah. It's good and bad, right? So for the first four or five years, people weren't allowed in there. And we had trainers, but no public. Yeah. so now you know like imagine somebody came into your office and like used something fucked it up and then left what are these people doing man they don't respect my so sometimes they're a little pissed off but that i usually run a pretty tight ship most people in there are pretty good i have a very strict no asshole policy so uh anyone breaks anything kick them out or if they at least they you know act

1:11:37Ben Pakulski:negligently and kick them out i would imagine because you keep it so limited that you could almost do like an application process for we did we did well so we have a waiting list oh you do

1:11:45Mind Pump Team:So, okay. Yeah, we do have waiting lists.

1:11:46Ben Pakulski:Oh, so that's kind of cool. So then you can start to - Or we can kick someone off. Yeah, yeah, sparse people out there.

1:11:51Mind Pump Team:And I don't need your money, right? I'm like at the point where I'm like, I need your 300 bucks. I'm like, fucking take it and get out, man. Leave me alone. I'd rather have my peace and my sanity than your fucking$300.

1:12:01Ben Pakulski:You've been remarkably consistent with who you are on social media. It's been a long time now. And there's always the allure of the algorithm pulling you in a different direction and maybe slightly compromising who you are integrity but you've been you've remained incredibly consistent uh talk about that a little bit because i know a lot of people try to build their business through social media and i've seen this you know so many we've been doing this for a long time too and you just see this you just see how people change because the algorithm you know is going to reward a certain way of communicating or style or whatever yeah my team's trying to get me to do it i just i just have no desire of course they are because that's their job like hey here's what you got to do

1:12:40Mind Pump Team:clicks yeah i have no desire to be anything other than myself man and like i've had relative success thank goodness by being myself um so for me to change to do something else or be someone else just like this doesn't make sense to me like i don't want to play someone else's game i want to play my game and i think when i'm authentically myself generally comes across pretty well most people react pretty well so i guess because i've had some version of success i'm not chasing anything at this point. Yeah, I think I chase education. I chase knowledge. I chase wisdom. I chase results. And if I just exude those things effectively and I'm myself and I love solving problems.

1:13:20Mind Pump Team:I think that's why I shifted into coaching people is I basically look at a body the same way I look at a business. I'm like, there's just complex problems to solve. So you're like, how do I solve this problem in the most efficient way? So I just take those values that to live by and speak them online.

1:13:35Ben Pakulski:When we met each other almost eight years ago, I think it was, you were already successful. So what has, over the late eight years that we've been friends, what has the business looked like for you as far as like, has it been this even coast? Did you have some tough years that went down? Did you have to pivot a lot? Like, what is that kind of journey been like since we've known each other? Yeah.

1:13:57Mind Pump Team:So prior to COVID, I was doing very well in exactly Look what you guys are doing, actually, like the digital programs. That's right. I remember that. That's right. Yep. So we're doing really well on that. And I was mentoring some coaches. I had, you know, a couple times a year I'd take on 30 coaches and mentor them. And that was going really well. So the digital programs are always, you know, great revenue, easy to do at the gym. So that was, you know, easy. And then COVID happened and everyone stopped working out. So I was like, well, I got to pivot. So I pivoted into more mentoring of coaches and then taking online clients.

1:14:34Mind Pump Team:And it wasn't even an intentional, I wasn't like, oh, I got to like rebuild myself. Or it's like, well, that income is going to go away. I'm just going to offer this coaching thing, which I had been doing anyways. I just sort of ramped it up. And that just went really well. And because I'd been mentoring coaches online, I just plucked the best ones out of the cohort. I'm like, hey, you want to come work for me? And I pay better than anyone else in the industry. So I was able to retain the best coaches who've still been with me for five years. So that's been sort of the business. Just the COVID pivot because nobody knew how long it was going to last.

1:15:06Mind Pump Team:Nobody knew if we were going to have gyms are opening again. So that was sort of the biggest pivot and it was a blessing. You know, like while I would love to go back to the e-books and programs and stuff like that, the interpersonal connection that I get from working with clients is remarkable. So like the income was easy. Not easy. It was consistent when I was doing the digital programs. But I lost connection. Like I wasn't hugely in touch with clients. And because I wasn't doing bodybuilding anymore, I wasn't really wanting to build muscle. I wasn't trying to like get out there and be aggressive in muscle building.

1:15:42Mind Pump Team:So it was like beautiful opportunity to transition into like mentoring men over 40, coaching men over 40 to, you know, whether it be performance focused or longevity focused.

1:15:51Ben Pakulski:You know, when we first met too, you were also on this lose a hundred pounds journey. I did.

1:15:56Mind Pump Team:Yeah. I got down to 225, but I felt like ET. I felt very skinny.

1:16:00Ben Pakulski:Was that the lowest? So the lowest you got down was? That's like my biggest size, dude. 225. I have a big structure. Where are you hovering right now?

1:16:08Mind Pump Team:235, really.

1:16:09Ben Pakulski:Okay, only 10 pounds higher than that. And how much have you had to scale volume and eating, all that?

1:16:16Mind Pump Team:It's very low. Like, man, if I go back to the gym for three weeks consistently, I get bigger again.

1:16:21Ben Pakulski:Oh, I imagine. Yeah. Do you ever play with that every once in a while? Of course. Okay, as I said, you ramp it up.

1:16:25Mind Pump Team:I get some meathead, comes to the gym, wants to train, and I'll end up being 260.

1:16:32Ben Pakulski:Okay, so this is something that, you know, I'm approaching 45, and so, you know, I never heard anybody communicate this to me when I was in my 20s or teens. I always heard, oh, it gets so much harder when you get older. And so I just always thought that, man, you know, being fit and being strong and having muscle as you get older is so difficult. I think that comes from the, if you didn't start until you were, one of the things that I've noticed as I've gotten older is actually how easy it is to stay fit. Keeping muscles easy. Yeah. The amount of training I have to do today, and I don't know if that's a testament to those crazy three, four years of bodybuilding for me or what, but it is wild how little, the kid, the 20-year-old kid that used to train double days to just gain an extra five or 10 pounds.

1:17:19Ben Pakulski:I mean I think now it's like god I I touch a weight you know every few days and I'll hang on to a lot of my muscle like how has that been for you and do you communicate that to people like that's one of the things I try and talk to people about like man just it's a sewing point yeah stick with it right now because it actually gets easier if you keep building on it for years yeah um it's

1:17:41Mind Pump Team:it actually surprises me how much strength I've been able to keep and how much muscle that if I want to turn it on it comes back um yeah much more than i would have expected considering how

1:17:52Ben Pakulski:little i have to do way yeah way muscle memory is crazy yeah it's actually remarkable i know and we all heard that get thrown around but i don't think i don't know i don't know if people explain it well enough because i didn't think it was going to be like that not like to the to the level to just like you're saying like the effort that i have to put towards just to maintain and if i want to turn it on and i i struggle to gain i did was not a i didn't put no 50 pounds on in a year or

1:18:17Mind Pump Team:two like so let me ask you this question huh is it the same for mobility or does mobility go away

1:18:23Ben Pakulski:faster that's an interesting question so because i have an interesting mobility journey um fact when we first met i was on my kick of like really getting working on my mobility because it sucked right before that and one of the things i also talked to these guys i actually uh don't have to put nearly in the work for mobility to keep what I put all the hard work in to get it. But what I do have to do is there's certain things, for example, really deep range of motion squats and sit like now when I play with my son, I sit in that position, which I couldn't do that 10 years. Yeah. 10 years ago, I couldn't do that.

1:18:59Ben Pakulski:So as long as I do things like that, I don't have to get down and do the 90 90s and a lot of the mobility work that I had to do to get to there. So in a sense, I am still training that mobile. I'm keeping myself, but I'm not having to put, I used to have to dedicate time. Like I'm going to spend 30 minutes of just mobility work every day for a couple of years to get to that place. But I still don't have to. There's certain exercises I just have to do occasionally that maintain that stability, strength, and mobility, and range of motion. And it maintains. I don't find myself having to put that much effort either there.

1:19:33Mind Pump Team:I think it's because you probably train. Like I find, I don't know if you guys agree with this, but I find training has always been exponentially more effective for improving range of motion than any mobility workouts. Like doing training with great ranges is so much more effective.

1:19:46Ben Pakulski:Well, because real mobility is the strength. Yeah, it's range of motion with strength. It's supported. You can't have one of those. And that's what I mean. So as long as I do some movements that encourage that that I couldn't do before, I'm good. Muscle memory is just, it's also remarkable. When you look at just what we know about it, it's crazy. you build 10 pounds of muscle it could take you a year to be average person it's gonna be a year to build it they could lose it all and then gain it back in a month i mean it's just crazy how well you remember when i did i did a thing last last year two years ago now two years ago i i did a

1:20:21Mind Pump Team:glp one thing so i intentionally took glp one for how long uh for six months somewhere on there

1:20:27Ben Pakulski:three to six months yeah three six months and the my goal was to take my trainer brain out of it so i wasn't gonna go try and hit my protein intake train really hard like i was like i'm gonna do this normie yes i want to be a normie and if i'm not hungry i'm not gonna eat if i don't feel like training i'm not gonna try i'm just gonna take this thing and let and boy was it i don't know if you've messed with glp ones at all but i did 30 days cool bro i mean i could go a day or two and not eat right and just not think about it but then i was mpick or what'd you do uh i did Trisepatide. Trisepatide.

1:20:59Ben Pakulski:Yeah. But I tell you what, like the fatigue and I mean, there was days where I had to choose like either to get a couple exercises in or help my wife around the house because I couldn't do both. I didn't have enough fuel and energy to do both. Anyways, lost a ton of weight. Damn near half of it was muscle. So I think I lost a total of 25 or 30 pounds somewhere around there. Half muscle, half fat.

1:21:23Mind Pump Team:Yeah.

1:21:23Ben Pakulski:And then I documented on YouTube training to get it back. And, of course, everybody thought I was lying. I mean, I did the DEXA scan before to show everything like that. But, I mean, I put on 25 pounds of muscle or 22. What was it, Dylan? 22 in the first month? 30 days? 22 pounds of muscle? And not even a muscle memory. And not training crazy, like slowly scaling. Totally. I mean, I was like doing two lifts a day, moderate intensity volume. I scaled the intensity volume over time, but with not training like an animal like that, and I put on 20-something pounds of muscle in 30 days and changed no other variables.

1:22:02Ben Pakulski:I mean, obviously I'm eating because I was hungry and off of it. But, I mean, it was a cool experiment.

1:22:08Mind Pump Team:Yeah, I ran low-dose redidru type for 30 days just because I wouldn't like have an opinion without, like I got to see what this actually feels like. It's crazy. It's crazy. You don't even think about food. I have a client who's a surgeon who uses it as a focus aid because he's like, you know, I didn't realize how much talk I have in the back of my mind thinking about food or whatever. It just goes away. So now in surgery, I can just be completely focused. It's like a nootropic. It's like it's interesting insight.

1:22:35Ben Pakulski:Yeah. There's studies right now on GLP-like peptides, so this is in the class of that for alcohol abuse. for quitting too many. It works. Yeah. Yeah. But, and so it's really interesting. It's a very interesting space to look at right now. Yeah. That's pretty well.

1:22:56Mind Pump Team:There's also been some feedback though, that people are becoming, I forget the name of the word exactly, but it's, they basically lose sexual desire as well. Yeah. Oh yeah. You seen that? Yeah.

1:23:04Ben Pakulski:We talked about that. I've heard of that. So here's what I wanted. Here's what I would want. Passion in general sort of. Right. Yeah. So here's what I would want to like parse out. Cause I know it acts on the, however we perceive, you know, hedonistic value in our brain. So there's definitely that part of it. But I want to know, I want to separate people who are eating adequately and people who are just way under eating. Because you just eat no calories. You're going to lose your desire for sex. You're not going to be as happy. That's the argument that I think. That's the argument that I would make too, Sal, because this is what I mean by what I felt.

1:23:39Ben Pakulski:I remember vividly many, many days of being so depleted and coming home from just podcasting. I don't think we do anything backwards. right come home and be like i know i need to get a lift in and all you gotta do is get in the garage do a couple of this and it's like but also i want to play with my kid and i want to help my wife and it was just like i had to choose it might be one of those things where it's not the glp but the fact that you're just eating nothing so uh but i'd like to see that i'd like to see people it's like uh when people do the keto flu it's like well it's not keto flu you just need sodium and then suddenly it goes away like uh i'd like to see when people actually eat adequately on a glp if you still see people who are like, I'm losing desire for things.

1:24:17Ben Pakulski:My guess is that it's mostly that. We actually trained a group, 50 people on GLPs. And one thing that was crazy was how many of them would plateau? Oh my God, almost all of them. They'd lose a lot of weight, but their calories got so low that they'd say, where are you gonna go? You got 1 ,200 calories and you got 30 pounds to go.

1:24:37Mind Pump Team:Man, so I had a client been with me for maybe two months. He messaged me three days ago. He goes, hey, just want to let you know that I've been ramping up my retitrutide dose. I'm now at 10 milligrams twice a week. And I was like, whoa. And he's like, but I'm still getting some more cravings. Can I go higher? And I was like, whoa, man, that's crazy. It's like people are using it. Like this guy specifically is using it to like eradicate any thought of food. I was like, man, what about just like, you know, he won't eat. He'll eat once a day, maybe. and like it's crazy how people are just um sort of stuck in this rut or this this belief system like this is going to solve all my problems and if it's not doing it adequately i need to take more like hold on man that's not how this stuff how i would categorize this stuff for sure the other

1:25:20Ben Pakulski:side too i share this on the podcast with the guys so i have some people in close to me that are taking it too now even though i took my trainer brain out of my whole experiment i what i didn't taken account for is just, I've still got years of, of good, healthy behaviors around food, exercise. And so when I would taste something that wasn't healthy for me, I would like, yeah, it was bland. I didn't like it. And I realized, I recognized that, man, I'm eating so low that a nutritious plate sounded good to me. And so I craved actually the better foods. And I, and I, you know, so even though I wasn't doing anything going on my way, I still actually preferred chicken and rice and like real like healthy stuff when i see other people who don't have that connection at all i literally they're just eating less yeah they're eating twice a day but it's fire cheetos and then they're on their toilet just fucked up and not connecting the dots are like you know that that's what's doing that right they don't get it they still don't and so and they're losing weight because they're only eating you know 800 calories of fire cheetos right and they're paying for it on the toilet all day long and then still going back to it it's like whoa that's crazy that this thing is working it's keeping them from eating hardly anything but even the signal of you are effed up every time you do that is not a reward right i'm doing good so i'm going to reward myself with cheetos and while the i was asking him because i remember i'm like because i remember also doing this ice cream has always been my uh kryptonite and uh i had some in the freezer doing the glp one and katrina would be asking me she's like um do you not even want i'm like no i have no desire for it and she's like have you tried it i'm like no i haven't because i haven't wanted she's like well i wonder if you tried it if you feel different i'm like okay you know i'll try it one day so i decided to go in there and i took a bite of it i'm like wow that's the first time in my life i ever took a bite of ice cream and i didn't desire it didn't taste good and i had no desire for another bite so which and i asked this person the same thing i'm like does it does it taste good to you when you have and she's like no and i'm like and you're still doing it so there's not even the reward system of this tastes good it's more that they just have a habit of that shit that i still gravitate towards that even though it doesn't have those it's not hitting those pleasure signals the same way i think we're going to do a glp one just because people are just the way that they're going to be used they're just going to take them uh and i think what we're going to do is come out of uh an obesity epidemic and just go face first into a frailty epidemic that's what i think is going to happen because you're seeing people reporting issues yeah because you're starting to see people reporting osteopenia you know because they're just they're not strength training they're not eating enough their protein intakes low and they're just they're just losing weight uh and they didn't have uh and they're losing muscle and they didn't have a lot of muscle to lose to begin with and so the big thing that i'm seeing

1:28:03Mind Pump Team:is uh digestive issues like people's microbiome being dysfunctional like motility slows way down way down right so like that's going to be a huge problem that's going to lead to like a whole slew whether it be small intestinal bacterial overgrowth whether it be autoimmunity like there's gonna be some issues coming out of digestive tract well and it ties back to what

1:28:20Ben Pakulski:so part of why slowing it down like that those foods like fire shooters don't digest well and then they get that feedback what i found quickly was like man if when i was eating good food i didn't have any of that issue as soon as i ate out of bounds like oh just back to the thing a lot of people aren't talking about either is the uh rising um resting heart rate uh that 25 i saw that was a zempic which is extremely high yeah uh and it's higher with uh redditrutide it looks like Really? Yeah, because of the triple agonism. And so what some people are reporting is insomnia, elevated heart rate, a little bit of anxiety from it.

1:28:55Ben Pakulski:So that'll be interesting as more people use it to see what's going on. But you can predictably, based on the data, get a rise in resting heart rate just from going on one.

1:29:05Mind Pump Team:Yeah, I saw that in Ozempic. I haven't seen it in a red or true data. But to be honest, I haven't been looking. So I'll look more closely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, fascinating stuff.

1:29:12Ben Pakulski:Yeah, we'll see what happens.

1:29:13Mind Pump Team:Have you looked at genetic considerations, whether it be around GLPs or specifically how, and this is interesting to speak about your friend with the Cheetos. There's a lot of different genetic considerations on how people perceive food at a level of the brain, the level of the palate, the level of the digestive tract. There's a whole different number of levels. So if you run somebody's genetic panel, you can see how they're going to respond to food. You can see levels of impulsivity. You can see they may have low leptin levels. You can see very specific things. And so I think that's going to be the next level of, of, um, you know, precision when it comes to these GLPs, we're going to start looking at your genes and like, Hey, this is the exact mechanism by which you're going to fail.

1:29:54Mind Pump Team:So if I look at somebody's genetic profile, I can see, um, you know, maybe this person has a lower sensitive palate to fats. So when, when they eat cashews or peanut butter, they're going to want to eat more of it. Cause you know, we have a different level of, of satiation in the mouth. Some people get a little bit and they're good. Some people are going to wait all of it. And you can literally see the genes for that. So like, okay. And then you ask the question like, hey, do you have a tendency to overeat when you eat fats? Yes, I do. Great. We can see that happen genetically. And we can say like, okay, this is where this person's most likely to break down.

1:30:25Mind Pump Team:Yeah. That's the next level of precision. That's we're not far off. Like, I think we can get a pretty good insight.

1:30:30Ben Pakulski:I mean, imagine that for coaching, how cool that would be just to know to have that insight.

1:30:33Mind Pump Team:So we do that now that we shifted to coaching about 18, maybe 24 months ago now. So we work with a team of geneticists and everyone, and the insights are remarkable because it just allows you to be so much more effective.

1:30:43Ben Pakulski:Yeah, no, of course. I mean, we teach our trainers this. One of the keys of being a great coach and trainer is the ability to forecast for your client. Right. You know, can you tell them the hurdles and challenges that they're going to have before they have it? Right. Huge difference versus -

1:30:59Mind Pump Team:Explain their challenges they've been having. Right. Without them telling you. Right, right.

1:31:02Ben Pakulski:Because, I mean, otherwise, you just start training this person, then they have those things, and then it's like, oh, they're blaming the not lack of results or the struggles they're having on you. It's like, whereas if I tell my client that, hey, listen, this is what's going to happen. Week four, you're going to feel like this. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to increase calories initially, and you're going to feel this way. You're going to be holding a little bit more water. Scale's going to go up. That's all normal. And then you're going to see. So if you can tell them what's going to happen before it happens, your ability to coach them through that process.

1:31:30Mind Pump Team:Yeah, genetics allow you to identify the constraint. So like everyone, you know, Sal's going to diet. You're going to diet. Justin's going to diet. I'm going to diet. we're going to feel a different constraint along the way, right? Constraint may be I'm hungry. Constraint may be I don't want to eat. Maybe the constraint is I have cravings. And there's a wide different array of how we would be constrained in a diet or any type of approach to a fitness plan. So looking at your genes, I can literally look at everyone's genes and go, this is going to be your constraint. This is where you're going to struggle.

1:31:57Mind Pump Team:And if we can identify in advance, we can also change it. We can also plan for it. So like, oh, I don't know exactly where Adam's going to struggle, right? And so some people are going to be prone to anxiety. Some people are going to have high-level baseline adrenaline, so they're going to be fidgety, and they're going to want to cheat on their diet to compensate for the adrenaline. We can literally see so much at the level of the genes. It's very cool. Very, very cool.

1:32:17Ben Pakulski:Very interesting. It's always a good time having you on the show, dude. It's always a lot of fun, my friend. It's been too long. Yeah, it's good to see you. We've got to do this again soon, not wait eight years. I'm going to drag you guys down to Tampa. Yeah, I know. You're so far. That's the thing. We're safe. I know. It's shorter when you come over here. It is. I want to come train at your gym dude that was one of my favorite gyms I'd ever train in I thought it was just one of the best ones if you want to put on some muscle you let me know don't encourage this guy dude don't encourage this guy

1:32:45Mind Pump Team:tell me why are you doing this what's going on with you what's your goal nothing just

1:32:50Ben Pakulski:oh no it's an addiction dog well of course it is he openly admits it there were two big big things that made a big impact one of them which was big was I finally figured out what was wrong with my gut health I finally fixed I had struggled with gut health for so long and done so many things and it was just there was a certain amount of food I could eat and then I ended up getting problems and it was like I don't know uh maybe uh 10 years of just on and off on and off and in the way that I would solve it when you get real bags I'd have to fast and then have to do all these other things and so it was just very limited by it you can never believe what it was I had I had to treat myself for parasites.

1:33:30Ben Pakulski:And once I did the treatment for parasites, uh, it fixed, uh, my gut issues. So when that got better, um, I mean, I was able to absorb what I could eat and I could eat normally. That made a huge difference. Um, and then hormone replacement therapy on top of it made a big difference. We got tested. Somebody offered to, to, to test us for free because they want to work with us. My testosterone came back in the floor and I didn't know it was in the floor. Um, but But once I got that up, it was great. That's right. You weren't on hormone therapy when we all first met him, huh? No. I had gut health issues and maybe low testosterone back then.

1:34:03Ben Pakulski:I had no idea. So hormone therapy, fix my gut, and then anadryl. Those are the three things that I... 600 milligrams per train a week. That's it. That's it. It made a huge difference. The gut health thing alone, probably 15 pounds of muscle. Just for my gut health alone. It was such a big deal. That's it. And where'd you get parasites? Huh? Did you, like traveling? Who knows, dude? You know, I think, you know, that's a great topic. I think, I don't think it's, obviously, it's not super common in the sense that you're not going to eat. I thought it is if you eat sushi on a regular basis. Well, what I was going to say is, look, you live in a modern society and you've been eating raw vegetables or sushi for 20 years.

1:34:45Ben Pakulski:The odds are you've probably got a parasite at some point. So I don't think you need to do a, I don't think you need to treat yourself for parasites every six months or every year. but I think the average person encountered parasites at some point. Yeah, of course. And so I - Did you test it or you just took the protocol

1:35:00Mind Pump Team:and you felt better?

1:35:00Ben Pakulski:So my wife got tested. She had a parasite and they're like, well, you guys are married so you probably got the parasite too. So I went on a protocol with her and it was like, that was like miraculous. It was crazy. There was a period of healing afterwards so it wasn't like right away I'm better but I could tell I was a lot better and then the months afterwards it was like, oh man, huge difference. And that easily account for 13 to 15 pounds of muscle, no problem. Wow. Just from that. Yeah. Now he eats eight times a day and trains like crazy. No, my train's not crazy. He's got the bodybuilder mindset, man.

1:35:32Mind Pump Team:But is it specifically goal-oriented or you're just sort of doing it to have fun?

1:35:36Ben Pakulski:I love it. I love it. But I'm mental. So it doesn't matter what direction I'm going. It's going to get mental sometimes. So if I'm trying to get big, I'm going to get obsessed. If I'm trying to get shredded, I'm going to get obsessed. If I'm trying to get strong, I'll get obsessed. So I think I'll toggle between the three of those. Keep myself in check a little bit. Why not?

1:35:53Mind Pump Team:For the rest of your life.

1:35:54Ben Pakulski:You know what I mean? And then I have access to peptides all day long. I'm the worst guy to have access to peptides. I mean, he's the best and the worst. He's the best and the worst because he's our guinea pig.

1:36:06Mind Pump Team:Who are you guys using for peptides?

1:36:08Ben Pakulski:He's used everything. What am I using right now? What am I using for peptides? Ask what he has not used. What have you not used? I've tried them all. I've tried most of them. I love BPC. I saw your name on the Seeds website. I was like, oh, fellow. I'm going to be speeding there. I'm going to be speaking. Excuse me. Are you going to be going? No. I'll be speaking there. I love BPC and thymus and beta. Love those. Combine those together. Just for like inflammation? You know, I get a different quality of the way my muscles look. I recover better. Maybe the upregulation of growth hormone receptors.

1:36:34Ben Pakulski:I'm not sure. You're not taking growth hormone? Are you taking testosterone? No, I'm on all the hormone optimization. So growth hormone, testosterone, thyroid. Testosterone is the max that they'll allow me to take, which is 200. growth hormone is one to two IUs a day thyroid 120 milligrams 120 of the armor every morning so it's like the whatever you know the optimization

1:36:56Mind Pump Team:did you guys ever have Dr. Thierry Hurtog on the podcast? No. So he's the head of International Hormone Society he's been on my show he's a great authority on hormones he's the same he's in his mid-60s and he says every man should be taking testosterone, growth hormone, thyroid at least he said probably oxytocin as well every man he's like otherwise why why are you living yeah wow part of the problem i feel like i feel like dr c

1:37:21Ben Pakulski:doesn't concur that yeah i mean it's it improves the quality of your life i think if you're not look i'll give you an example of someone who doesn't need testosterone doug comes back his testosterone levels come back 11 1200 naturally wow yeah naturally so animal yeah total animal and he's almost 85 beast back so he's uh yeah the healthiest one out of all of us and he doesn't to get any of that stuff. But one of the issues too is I'll get blood work done and it comes back and the doctor's like, man, you've got the best looking blood work I've ever seen. So that just makes me go, cool, I just take more peptides then I guess I'm okay.

1:37:52Ben Pakulski:I'll wait till something comes back, red flag, and then I'll change it. That's good, man. That's good stuff. Good shit, dude. All right. Yeah, good having you, bro. Thanks, boys. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, Check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs.

1:38:31Ben Pakulski:With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos,

1:38:34Mind Pump Team:The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price.

1:38:42Ben Pakulski:The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mind Pump.