2946: 5 Things Bodybuilders Figured Out Before Everyone Else (That Everyone Should Know)

17:15Sal Di Stefano:And you're like, you know, it's like, yeah, that dude literally did not just wake up and get to that point. Like he built that over time on top of what you said.

17:22Adam Schafer:And I got to say this and just again, to give them credit. Cause again, they were the ones that really talked about this the most to the point where you have Mr. Olympia's that would train for 30 minutes. I mean, Dorian Yates would do like two sets or three sets in a workout, very intense. but he was Mr. Olympia because they considered recovery a lot more than almost any other strength sport. Now the, when it comes to like Olympic lifting, they started to figure this out, but it wasn't the athletes that figured this out. This is what's unique about bodybuilding. They had no governing body with scientists that were like, you're competing for us.

17:58Adam Schafer:So we're going to study you. And they were like figuring this out on their own and rest became something that they talked about, and recovery is what they talked about quite a bit. In Olympic lifting, the Soviets figured this out because they had scientists that were watching the athletes and going, no, you're not going to train anymore. We're going to train at this intensity. Well, that was what was interesting, too, to watch is, like, everybody kind of had different modalities that they were testing out on themselves, and they'd get benefits, and then it's like they're kind of, like, communicating with each other what's working, what's not working, and it's like the best recipe sort of rises at the top.

18:29Totally.

18:30Adam Schafer:Here's another one, protein. bodybuilders have been talking about a protein they were talking about it first they were talking about it the most they were promoting it across the board they were ridiculed for it for a long time and guess what the world is catching up the bodybuilders were right you know who benefits from eating high protein every athlete everybody I remember when the endurance community scoffed at this high protein we need carbs we need lots of carbs I was like, what are you talking about? Guess what, everybody? Endurance athletes also benefit from eating more protein than is typically recommended.

19:06Sal Di Stefano:Old people, young people, endurance athletes, strength athletes, you name it, longevity people, everybody benefits. The body breaks down. Fat loss people, people that need to lose a bunch of body fat. I mean, it's something that, and I think we've been screaming from the rooftop since we started this thing. Every client that I ever trained, no matter the goal, the weight, the age, the sex, didn't matter. When I assessed diet, we're under eating protein. It was either they were under eating by a little bit or grossly under eating protein. And one of the first easiest fixes to show them great results in whatever their endeavor was, was just flipping the way they ate and focusing on why we repeat it so much.

19:52Adam Schafer:That's right. And I'm going to say this. This is just a little sidebar for this particular point here. The supplement industry is because of bodybuilders. The entire good, bad, and the ugly, and a lot of us like supplements, and I think the supplement industry does do a lot of good. There's a lot of craziness out there as well. It came from bodybuilders. They were the ones that were the first ones to create supplements. They were the first ones to take supplements. Protein powders were some of the first supplements that were ever created, and it was created for muscle building. Desiccated liver tablets.

20:24Adam Schafer:That's it. That was for bodybuilders. And it was because it started with protein. And then lastly, sleep. Bodybuilders sleep a lot. This is funny. People don't know this about pro bodybuilders. Pro bodybuilders sleep a lot. They're like big babies. They go to bed. They get nine hours of sleep. They take a nap in the day. They know the value of sleep for building muscle. And of all athletes, of all athletes, they have known the value of sleep the most. than they continue to. Athletes in general. Now, these days, I think everybody knows that sleep is something that's really important. But in general, when you're working with high-level athletes, this is the one that they tend to go, eh, I'm cool.

21:04Adam Schafer:I'm all right. I get enough sleep. Bodybuilders really made this a focus. So now that we have all the science and the data supporting, like why you need to get sleep and the effects of bad sleep and not optimal sleep, you can think bodybuilders. They were the first ones to talk about that.

21:17Sal Di Stefano:You know, I actually don't think a lot of, I think that sleep is said and thrown around so much that we all kind of nod our head like, oh, yeah, I know. But I don't think we really know. And why I say that, maybe this is top of mind for me right now. I've got two of our good friends, one of our mutual friends, Jason and my other buddy, Justin, that are in a group thread with me right now. And I've been recently inspired to just kind of coach them, but coach them through sharing what I do every day and how I make the decision. right? So I started this thread last week and, uh, you know, I, I, I, I've been telling the

21:53Adam Schafer:thread, huh? What's the title?

21:54Sal Di Stefano:I haven't named it yet. I will eventually name it something inappropriate. Yeah. I'll name it. So, so what it looks like just to give the audience is like, uh, I, I go, I literally, I text after the day because I don't know what, what, what, what's going to entail. Um, yesterday was, um, got a 60 sleep score, toss and turn all night, skipping the workout today gonna do a 30-minute walk keep the diet tight that was what i what i said today uh so jason chimes in this is we've been doing this for days now right and one of the things that i noticed about both of them is just the over application of the intensity and volume and pushing it right now uh and not enough balance of understanding sleep and stress and all these other factors and it was when he told me what he was doing like he he listed out his workout he's an hour and a half of the gym 36 sets of stuff i'm like what are you doing bro what are you doing you have three girls in school you're uh you know you're 45 years old like he's doing what he can get away with yeah yeah and he's on every peptide and hrt so he and he looks really good but he's deceived by that like he thinks that like and he's doing a great job but he could be doing so much better with so much less and that was the communication so i'm like over here, like, you know, weighted pull-ups and four sets of squats.

23:15Sal Di Stefano:That was like the day before. And so he's like, man, I need to cut my volume way down, at least in half. And so his half now still looks ridiculous. And yesterday he tells me, oh, I got really poor sleep also, so I need to cut back too today. Should I not work out at all or cut back? I said, well, either reduce it way down or what you would normally do today is just go through the motions, monitor and so then he goes okay and then he sends me what he does you know and it still ends up being like 16 sets which is half of what he was doing before so he's thinking it's better than what was yeah and he still is you know two or three the movements he was doing he was still pushing really heavy load on himself with that i said way too much no there was today was a day you could have taken off if you were going to go there you should just went through the mode there was no reason to push that on those two exercises or, or either, or do that much volume.

24:11Adam Schafer:You could have done way less. You know why that's so hard, Adam? It's like, you know what it reminds me of? And I won't get too specific, but sometimes they'll pass like some kind of government policy. That's obviously anti, you know, classically anti job growth. So they'll pass it. Then they'll come back a report and be like, Oh yeah. Well, since we passed that report, we've added a thousand new jobs and it's like well yeah but we would have added 3 000 you know had you not done it right the challenge with what with with what you're talking about adam is he's getting some progress oh yeah because he was doing nothing before right and now he's doing something but what he doesn't know is what he's missing yes you know so he you know he gained five pounds of muscle like dude he

24:49Sal Di Stefano:could have gained 10 and this is what i'm trying to convey right now and then i'm also trying to convey and understand let to my whole how this conversation started just to bring it full circle that I think someone like him, if you asked him, if you quizzed him, what are some of the most important things, he would definitely put sleep at one of the top three. But it still doesn't register that when you get a really poor night of sleep, like I had yesterday night, my stress bucket is already really close to tipping over already. It fills it up really high, especially at my age, with all the other things I have on my plate, having a kid.

25:22Sal Di Stefano:Totally. So a day where I have this big wide open bucket to train hard and do all the things and handle work is now already right there. And so the workout, if I'm going to do it, I got to be very mindful that it's just going to take very little to spill that stress bucket over. And once that stress bucket is spilled over, now I'm wasting a lot of energy and effort because I'm not going to reap the benefits for that added stress. And so that's what I'm trying to communicate to them is like, yeah, there would have been way better off not working out, focusing more on recovery, diet, other things that could improve your health.

25:57Sal Di Stefano:Or if you're going to go to the gym because you like the consistency, I'm not against that. But then it should go way easy. Go through the motions. Yeah.

26:04Adam Schafer:You know why it's hard too is because it's doing nothing. Yeah. You're just sleeping, which seems so wild. Wait, you want me to do more of nothing to get better results? What I immediately think about is, and I remember when we interviewed Ben Pikulski. So Ben Pikulski is a friend of ours, pro bodybuilder, high, high level, you know, 10 years ago. He was like one of the top bodybuilders. And I couldn't wait to talk with them because at that time, you had all these pro bodybuilders who were going to the Middle East and they were gaining like 10 to 15 pounds of muscle.

26:36Sal Di Stefano:Yeah, we were all speculating off air, like it's myostatin blockers they have over there.

26:40Adam Schafer:They got some new drug. Here's why that's so crazy. When you're 280 pounds shredded bodybuilder, to gain another 10 pounds of muscle is like a miracle. It's like getting a car that does a four second quarter mile to go down to three seconds.

26:55Sal Di Stefano:And what we were seeing, Sal, to add to what you're saying, is that we were seeing it across the board. Everybody that was going over. Everybody that went there. So it raised all these flags that they must be doing something.

27:04Adam Schafer:They'd spend three months there and gain like 15 pounds of muscle. Everybody would come back huge. And because they're already pros, because they're already taking every drug, because they already live and have lived for a long time to build muscle, I'm like, it must be some special new drug that they have out there. And I remember when Ben came in and I'm like, dude, you've got to tell me. Because he knows. He lives in that space. He's very honest. Well, he's been there. And he's been there. He's like, no, there's nothing special. He's like, do you know why they're all building muscle? He's like, what are they doing?

27:31Adam Schafer:He goes, they don't do anything but lift weights, eat, and sleep. There's nothing to do with it. Yeah, yeah. They literally lift weights, go back to their apartment they play video games they take a nap they eat all day then they lift weights again and they go to sleep that's all they're doing and that's why they're getting all this muscle and then I'm like of course of course that's what it is because it'll do that that rest will do that

27:50Sal Di Stefano:oh it made so much sense after this but I mean that just shows you how like to your point like you have somebody who is the already checking every box to the highest level and it's not like those guys were abusing sleep either they just got a little more optimal rest recovery and sleep and boom and that's what i'm trying to convey to my buddies is this like and and so today i scored an 80 great rest so i can't wait to go get a nice lift but even when i go get a nice lift it's not i'm not gonna go crazy either it's just like now's the day i'll i'm gonna probably do weighted weighted pull-ups is something that i'll do i'll either do loaded heavy lunges i'll do something like that because i'm now rested i'm now recovered this is the day that i'll push a

28:31Adam Schafer:little bit in the workout yeah speaking of supplements and stuff i i you know i got i want to just, uh, I want to be clear about probiotics right now, because if you had asked me five years ago, what would be like tier one supplements? In other words, what are supplements that you recommend to everybody that everybody should take? I would have said multivitamin and creatine. Those have been the two, but I'm now moving probiotics to that level. So we work with a company called Seed. Their probiotics are the best in the world. They have a delivery process. That's just their, their light years ahead of everyone else.

29:05Adam Schafer:But the reason why I now put probiotics in that category where I'm like, everybody should take them. The amount of data and studies on their benefits is now overwhelming. In other words, to put it differently, it benefits everything they test. Anything they test, when they give them a probiotic, it's better. Fat loss, better. Muscle growth, better. Skin, better. Mental health, better. Digestive health, of course, better. Hormone health, better. It doesn't matter what they test. When they take probiotics, it's better. So it's now, in my opinion, like everybody should take it.

29:39Sal Di Stefano:Do you think there's something there that's more than just a probiotic? Like societal, like there's something that like today we have so many gut issues in people. Huge. That it's more to do with that we're so messed up there that this is showing this improvement. improvement? Or do you think if you took, you actually teased out some of these studies and gave it to people that were 100 % healthy, no gut issues, no nothing, and then you compared against a group that weren't, that were. So say we have 20 athletes or we need a bigger than 100 athletes, 50 of them with incredible health, no gut issues, no nothing, and then 50 of them with gut issues going on, stuff like that.

30:23Sal Di Stefano:Now, obviously, the ones with issues, we already know for sure they're going to see huge improvement. Would we still see improvement, you think, in the other ones?

30:29Adam Schafer:Well, in the studies that I'm looking at, many of them are not picking volunteers with gut health issues. These are people, normal, healthy people. They're just testing it for fat loss, or they're testing it for muscle gain and strength, or they're testing it for anxiety or depression or skin health. So they're not coming in with any reported issues. Now, that being said, I think it's probably like this. Like if you look at the data on walking 8 ,000 steps a day, profound health benefits, I don't think it's necessarily because walking is magical, but rather because we don't walk at all. We never move.

31:06Adam Schafer:So you get all these benefits because you're moving. I don't know, 5 ,000 years ago, we were probably, our microbiome probably was way more diverse. This probably wouldn't, I don't know if this would be as essential. Just like multivitamins, I think are more important today than ever. Although the argument can be made that it would be important a long time ago, too, because of nutrient deficiency. So I don't know. But what I do know is when I'm looking at the studies on probiotics, it's hard to find one that doesn't show a benefit. Well, we keep seeing all the, I mean, how, you know, the microbiome plays so many roles in the body.

31:39And, like, to just add that little bit of extra to benefit the culture there, like, should, you know, have a massive difference. You know, just like mitochondria, like, we're addressing that, right? like the function of the cell. Like if we improve that, you're going to see, you know, this cascading effect, I would assume just because -

31:58Adam Schafer:Probiotics. Yeah, the bacteria plays such a big role in so many things. Probiotics help mitochondrial health. There's another one. There it is. There's another one. It's just one of those things. Yeah. Speaking of supplements and stuff, Kate, so GLP drugs, right? So semaglutide, trisepitide, ozempic, right? They just took the world by storm. We've talked about them on the show. Lots of people are using them now. A huge amount of people are on them now. And I predict it's going to be like probably two-thirds of all of America will be on a GLP at some point because of how effective they are for weight loss and that stuff.

32:36So RETA is still like gray market. It hasn't really come to like consumers yet. RETA is not FDA approved. RETA trutide.

32:43Adam Schafer:Only trisepatide, semaglutide, the two other big ones. um so when that first started happening okay remember when glp really started hit the market there were a lot of there was a lot of fear among trainers and people in the fitness industry oh my god no one's gonna hire a trainer why would anybody go to a gym yeah why would anybody go to a gym when they can just inject this thing and lose weight and we uh predicted the opposite at what happened. Yeah. And you could listen to old episodes. We say, no, I think this will actually increase interest in fitness for two reasons. One, strength training is recommended and so people are more aware that they can lift weights.

33:27Adam Schafer:But two, losing weight is motivating for people to go work out oftentimes. So now that they're seeing themselves lose weight, they're like, cool, now I'm going to go work out a little bit now that I'm starting to lose weight by using this GLP. For your average person, I really think it's just absolutely necessary to have a coach. if you're going to pursue that at all. For sure. So we predicted GLPs would increase business for the fitness industry. A lot of people in our space were scared. In fact, many of them were anti it, saying it's going to hurt business in the industry. Guess who was right?

33:57Adam Schafer:Yeah. We were. Do you want to see what the data looks like? They've done it. So they've actually figured out or looked at how much the GLP-1 user spends on fitness versus the average person. the average GLP user spends four times more on fitness. Wow. Four times, 400 % more almost on fitness. So the average GLP user spends on average$449 per month on fitness, whereas the non-users about$120 per month in fitness. So like we said, and we have a course that we put together for coaches and trainers. We also have a fitness podcast that our trainers run called the Elite Trainer Podcast. We told all of our trainers in this course, which we created a while ago, we told trainers, do not embrace this because you're going to get more clients or we're going to be on it because it's going to bring more people to us.

34:52Adam Schafer:Yeah. And that seems to be the case.

34:53Sal Di Stefano:I mean, I would argue that GLP-1s make the weight loss part easier but more complex. so easier because you've got this incredible tool that just cuts out all the food noise and for somebody who's struggled with weight their whole life food noise typically is really loud really challenging cravings and food noise uh is one of the greatest hurdles and habits and behaviors that are attached to that and so this tool allows it just completely crushes that complex because it does such a good job of that. And we know historically, we've always struggled getting our clients to eat enough protein and be consistent with lifting weights.

35:40Sal Di Stefano:It makes those two things - More important and harder. Yes. Makes it more difficult. Your low energy to the point that I made when I went through it. So the drive to go to the gym is going to be even less than what it was when you were probably overweight. And if you were already somebody like most people who didn't eat enough protein as it is, it's even harder when you're eating half the calories you're eating. So easy, but more complex. And that is a perfect recipe for trainers and coaches to support and help that person. Because that person, obviously, to your point, is willing to spend four times the money.

36:16Sal Di Stefano:So it's not a matter of, are they not willing to invest in themselves in that area. So they're willing to invest and more often or more now than ever need to invest in someone to help them and support them. A hundred percent.

36:29Adam Schafer:I think one of the, from a business perspective, because I think we got to do this the right way because there's, there's, there are risks with GLPs, not the ones that you see the fear mongering risks, but you know, if you just go on one and usually weigh less, you're going to lose muscle, a lot of muscle as well, which can cause other problems. But I believe from a business perspective, GLPs are the best thing to happen in the fitness industry in a long time. I think it's going to bring more people to gyms. It's going to bring more people to personal trainers, more people to coaches, almost any other thing that I can think of.

37:04Adam Schafer:And the data is now starting to support that. I think we're going to walk into, and I'm not even talking about the tech boom, which I think is going to fuel this as well. I think AI and all that stuff is probably going to fuel this as well. But let's just pretend that doesn't exist. I think we're walking into one of the largest fitness booms that, if not the largest one that we've ever experienced in our experience. I mean, we were part of a kind of a fitness boom because gym, you know, mega gyms or the big box gyms became popular during our time running them. But I think GLPs are going to take it to the next level because it's making people want to work out and it's making people aware that they need to lift weights, that they need to work out.

37:42Adam Schafer:And their doctors are telling them for the first time, they're literally saying to them lift weights yeah they never said that before first time mainstream doctors never said that lift weights now they're telling them yeah it'd be interesting

37:52Sal Di Stefano:to see a cool graph i i don't i don't know if we're technically in like a hockey stick moment or it's just been since we've been a part of this 25 years it's just been this and we're feeling it maybe ramp up that's what i think you know like we're going through you know it like if we if you graph this out it probably kind of looks like this over the last 25 years and we're probably on a one of these right now on a pretty steep climb.

38:15Adam Schafer:I think trainers are going to see a big boom. You know what's interesting about, as I think back to the times of fitness where I felt it really grow, one of those times was a period of time where we thought the fitness industry was going to get hit the hardest. COVID. COVID was interesting. Trainers did very well during COVID. Virtual trainers and coaches. Gyms didn't do well. The ones that were flexible, yeah. But gym equipment did really well. Do you guys remember what it was like trying to buy home gym equipment from Facebook Marketplace? Oh, yeah. He was selling it. It was crazy.

38:46Sal Di Stefano:I thought about selling my dumbbells just to make some extra money. I know. They're going for like four times the price. He couldn't get weights. He couldn't get bicycles either. No. He couldn't get anything. Everybody was outside, like, biking. It was crazy. Yeah. I also think, you know, there's a lot of different things that are at play here. GLP ones are definitely one of the things that are at play. We're in this crisis, too, of loneliness. and you know we had a live caller just recently that we're talking about community and this and that and you know some people have hobbies right some people are into pickleball or sports or have things that that that naturally organically have built-in communities to them but not a lot not everybody has that and i think that the gym uh like you you pitch church a lot i think church is another good example of that.

39:32Sal Di Stefano:I think gym is another one. For sure. It's just an easy built-in, I'm going to this place like a church to better myself. So I'm surrounded by people

39:42Adam Schafer:who want to get better. I'm surrounded by other like-minded people.

39:45Sal Di Stefano:It's a built-in community. So it's such a great place for somebody. And I think that's also at play here. I think that we have got...

39:55Adam Schafer:No, you're right, because the money that's going into gyms right now, if you look at the way the money's changing, the footprints of gyms are changing but also the amenities are moving more towards socializing so gyms now are starting to be they're seeing that people go they're going there to socialize and to meet up with people so I think we're entering into a great era yeah we're centering us hanging out around fitness and around healthy things

40:24Sal Di Stefano:it's exciting too because you know and I like to think that we're part of this movement and narrative too of like the i need to kind of full circle talk about how you you brought this all up with like bodybuilding and stuff like that like fitness is actually so much different than bodybuilding as far as like what it takes to be healthy longevity and fit like it's very it's very minimal what doesn't take a ton yeah and so if these if these gyms start building to be more like these cool social like cool social clubs where you can go over and lift a couple weights. You know what I'm saying? That's kind of like the vibe that I feel is going.

41:00Adam Schafer:Yeah, you work out, you eat a little, you hang out. Yeah.

41:03Sal Di Stefano:I mean, it's really, even what I'm designing right now at my house, it's really the thought that I have. And I can't wait till it's all done at my place because I'm going to lift different than I've ever lifted before. I'm going to really attempt to lift the way I tell the story of the trainer who worked for me a long time ago. Or where you do a little bit all day. Yeah, where I like just, I have, there is no routine or format. It's just that I go back. I'm in my backyard multiple times a day all day, and I'm just going to walk over there and go do two sets, and then I'm going to walk away. You know, you're going to get so strong.

41:36Sal Di Stefano:I really want to see what happens.

41:37Adam Schafer:I've experimented with that, and it makes me strong.

41:39Sal Di Stefano:I really want to see what happens.

41:41Adam Schafer:I think Justin does that the most. I do that a lot, yeah. Are you good about that? Yeah. He does it all the time. Every now and then, just go do an exercise if I'm walking past weights. Yeah, I love doing that.

41:52Sal Di Stefano:Yeah, I'm going to really discipline myself to kind of try and embrace that and be that guy and see how that is. And I think that's the – I just don't think people thought of that before. In fact, I still have friends to this day that they look at my physique and they think that I – I would never want to do that. I don't want to spend six days a week in the gym for hours at a time. I have a life. I have other things I'm into. And it's just like, dude, I don't –

42:20Adam Schafer:Six hours a month. Yeah, it ain't got to be that.

42:24Sal Di Stefano:You know, it's nothing like that, actually. And so I think as that narrative changes and people realize that when you live, that's so awesome about lifting weights as your main modality towards your pursuit of health and longevity, it's actually very minimal effort toward that. And if you can go to this place now where they build these gyms that have got pools and live DJs and lounge areas and little restaurants in them. And man, it's actually kind of like this healthy club that you hang out at. And then, oh, maybe I'll make it over there and do a couple of sets while I'm here and I get out of here.

42:58Sal Di Stefano:And man, I think it really could shift culture and how we do things.

43:03Adam Schafer:So I just, it's funny you said that because I have this saved. There's this diagram that explains, based off of the data, what we know in the data, on how long it takes to lose like strength or endurance or whatever. So let's say you work out and then you stop. How long does it stick around, right? When do you start to lose it? So they have this picture of a dude. It's this little diagram, whatever. And so it's like 48 hours later, pretty much nothing has changed. Blood volume is down a little bit by about 5%. So this is just 48 hours after working out and he's doing nothing. Okay. You get a week later, strength is unchanged, muscles unchanged, blood volume still kind of going down.

43:44Adam Schafer:Now we start to see mitochondria producing a little bit less energy. That's a week later. Okay. Then we get to two weeks later, VO2 max down 5 % to 10%. So this is like stamina and endurance. Motor unit recruitment down 13%. Force output unchanged, strength unchanged. Four weeks later, okay, blood volume is down by as much as 12%. VO2 max is down by about 10%. Strength unchanged, muscle size unchanged. Wow, still? Eight weeks later, two months later, muscle size barely has changed. Strength is finally starting to drop. VO2 max down almost 20%. 12 weeks later is when you start to see some measurable size differences in muscle.

44:32Adam Schafer:So what's cool about this is muscle and strength stick around. They stick. They're very resilient forms of adaptation.

44:40Sal Di Stefano:So just to add to that because - Endurance goes quickly. So it's interesting that you have that. It's so cool to actually see, because I'll tell you what I've experienced that I noticed myself, just because I've watched and been super analytical of all the data, the numbers, what I look like, all this stuff, like to probably an obsessive level, right? Because of what I've done. And there'll be times where, you know, a week or two, more often two is normally about where I would be called, I would say I'd push it, but a week goes by and I have it lifted weights. and I feel like I can start to see a visible difference but what that confirms with me which I feel like this is so true is that most of that is just blood volume in the muscles yeah because as soon as I go get my first workout back from the same like oh there it is yeah like there I am like I still got it you know and it and I'm reminded of that consistently and it's just like how minimal you have to do to maintain that that's what's so cool about one of the things that's why

45:39Adam Schafer:strength training is such a wonderful form of exercise for modern life because you miss workouts. So you get to keep a lot of the gains. You get to keep the metabolic boost. You get to keep the look. The, the, the one thing I would say, the one caveat I would say is the more extreme you are with your development and strength, the faster you'll probably notice some declines because you're already at such a high level. In other words, someone who is like a top strength athlete, top power lifter, or you're really strong in the gym, you take three weeks off of doing that lift, you might notice a difference, but it's not because your muscles aren't stronger or weaker, I should say, themselves, but rather the motor recruitment patterns haven't been trained or practiced.

46:21Adam Schafer:Because I know some people listening were like, that's not true. When I take three weeks off, like my bench goes from 450 to 425.

46:26Sal Di Stefano:Well, I'm going to push back on that a little bit because, and I know I feel like if Ben Pakulski was here, he would push back also a tiny bit and what i've experienced which is yes uh i am not squatting 420 and i'm not dead lifting 550 right now at all but there is this kind of my floor is yes is way higher yes and that stays

46:52Adam Schafer:around like it feels like i can't lose it that's right so yes you're right like if i if i was like

46:58Sal Di Stefano:at peak me, you know, hitting PR, like hovering my numbers and I take three weeks off, I'm probably not able to be right at peak. You're going to notice some. Yeah, I'll notice some. And if I continue not doing anything for say another week or month, let's say even a month, I might drop down. But then all of a sudden I kind of hit this like floor and that floor is still way stronger than the average person.

47:21Adam Schafer:Muscles, it's interesting. It sticks around, especially the longer you keep it. I don't know if you guys have ever seen like older people who obviously way less muscle than they had when they were really muscular, but that you could still tell that they used to lift almost, you know, like an old football player or whatever. Old competitive strongman. I remember, yeah, there was this older guy who's like, I don't know, 70 years old.

47:43Sal Di Stefano:So that old man strength comes from. Well, you had to have been some kind of athlete back in the day. And he, I haven't even lifted in, you know, over a decade really. Like he just does like everyday activity. You tell you he was jacked. You tell your story about your dad who just walked over and grab a kettlebell and pick it up.

47:59Adam Schafer:Dude, I remember when I used to have my studio, there was a breakfast place next to it. And so people would line up on Sundays, especially Saturdays, Sundays, and I'd work on those days. And this little old guy walked in and I think he was 80. I believe he was 80 or late 70s. And he was a little guy. He was a little kind of short dude. And he walks in and he's looking around and I'm with a client. So I walk over him and introduce myself. And I immediately noticed his forearms. so he's this little dude with these little like ball yeah kind of muscle forearms so right away i noticed and i kind of looked at him and he looked at my kettlebells he goes can i can i uh go look at those i said yeah go ahead i'm like you familiar with them oh yeah he goes i used to use them in russia so he had an accent russian guy so he goes over and he presses one up i don't remember what it was like 50 or 70 pounds he has a lot of weight for an 80 year old dude and i'm like you still got some muscle on you he goes i haven't i don't work out i'm like when's the last time you worked out he's like i haven't worked out in a very long time i was a young man i still work up but he had you could tell by looking at those yeah so there's uh so that was my point of

48:58Sal Di Stefano:pushing back is like yeah i mean there's gonna be and let me tell you too the guy who says that too i think because i would have probably said that um some of that is psychological and a lot of it's the blood the blood volume yeah that's the pump yeah because there's definitely there's definitely this part of me that goes like oh man i i feel like i can tell i haven't worked out in a week or two and you're right there's all all that blood and fluid isn't pumped into those muscles as soon as I go to the gym and go pump it all back in, it's like, oh, okay. I'm not far off from where I thought I was.

49:27Sal Di Stefano:I still got something. Yeah, and so, man, that's such a cool, cool thing. It's the thing that I've been kind of talking about for the last couple of years on this podcast that not a lot of older guys communicated that to me. At least I don't remember ever hearing that from anybody. Everyone, in fact, the men.

49:43Adam Schafer:Yeah, because what was usually communicated is, oh, if you stop working out, you lose it all, which is true, but what they should have said is, you don't need to do a lot to keep it, dude. No. Yes. It's interesting you talk about that baseline. I totally feel like because it gives me that confidence. Like even when I was like, you know, I'm going to try to do like a PR. Like I just I knew that like at least I'm starting from a good place.

50:03Sal Di Stefano:Way higher than you were in your 20s. Yeah. Where you were probably a strong kid. But yeah, it's like if I could, you know, just refine my efforts in one direction for a specific amount of time. and be really judicious about how I use my time recovery-wise, fueling that. I feel like I could get pretty far,

50:23Adam Schafer:but I like to know that my base is still right here. It took me so long as a kid to deadlift 400 pounds. 400 pounds now, I can not work out for a while, and I'll pull four plates off the floor.

50:34Sal Di Stefano:That's what I mean. Your floor is -

50:36Adam Schafer:Whatever it takes to get there is not what it takes to keep it. No, not - It's way less. When it comes to strength training.

50:40Sal Di Stefano:Not even close. The stuff that was communicated to me was like what you said. oh when you get old well you get older if you stop you you lose it all um or and people used to say to me when i was a trainer in my 20s like well what are you gonna do when you get older like you can't possibly like be in the gym all the time and do a good guy it's more important when you're older to work well you know what i what i get though is like because you know the way we all train so radically in our 20s and crazy and the volume and intensity it's like so of course somebody in their 50s looking at me in my 20s going like you ain't gonna be doing that and they're right I ain't doing that stuff anymore it evolves but it's like I don't gotta do nearly nearly like that to look 10 times better than that kid

51:18Adam Schafer:that kid what he had to do do you remember how hard it was to get over 200 pounds

51:21Sal Di Stefano:yes yes

51:22Adam Schafer:all the lifting and eating and now it's like

51:24Sal Di Stefano:yes and now in order to get under 200 I'd have to lose a bunch of muscle to get under that you'd have to starve yourself yeah I mean that to me is it's such if you're listening to this podcast and you're young that's one of the most exciting things about getting older that nobody ever said to me is just like dude it just gets easier I know. It gets easy. And that sounds kind of - All the work you're putting in right now matters. Yeah. Long term. Yes. Joint pain and stress and all the other things that we talk about that we fearmonger about aging. I'm going to name it.

51:52Adam Schafer:It's called muscle wisdom. That's what I'm going to call it. Your muscles become wiser. Yeah. They've been down this road before. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That's it. We'll call it that. All right. I'm going to change directions because I wanted to talk about our partner Z-Biotics. So people aren't familiar. Z-Biotics is a pre-alcohol drink and it's a genetically modified probiotic. meaning it's a unique probiotic that breaks down something called acetaldehyde in the gut. And acetaldehyde is this negative byproduct of alcohol. So it's a good idea to break it down. So I did some more reading today on acetaldehyde and what it really does in the body.

52:26Adam Schafer:And is there any amount that's okay to have in the body? And the answer is no. No benefit to it? No. No extra acetaldehyde is considered healthy. it is a reactive genotoxic compound that the body really works hard to keep at low levels. It is not good for you at all. When people get an extra load of it, it comes from alcohol. Even moderate drinking produces more acetaldehyde than the body normally handles, especially, and here's where Z-biotics is important, locally in the mouth, saliva, and upper GI tract. So your liver does a good job of detoxifying acetaldehyde. Okay, so when the alcohol gets to the liver, unless you drink way too much, your liver does a good job of eliminating it.

53:15Adam Schafer:But some acetaldehyde's in the gut and that doesn't get filtered by the liver. It goes into your bloodstream. What Z-biotics does is the bacteria that they modified breaks it down. So when you drink Z-biotics for about 36 hours, you've got this bacteria in your body that breaks down the extra acetaldehyde that doesn't make it to the liver breaks it down so you don't get the text the toxicity from it and that's why it works

53:39Sal Di Stefano:so damn well is there anything else that we consume that does that negligible from food

53:45Adam Schafer:smoking smoking is the other yeah other way you get acetaldehyde interesting yeah i wonder if there's any benefits of of that taking it like pre-smoking yeah or pre-smoking i don't know I don't know. That's a good question. I'm wondering if the asthma, well, no, maybe not, because the Z-Biotics, some of it in your mouth, but most of it in your gut. When you smoke, it's inhaled. So I don't know. It's in your lungs. That's funny, because some things that don't benefit your body, you could make an argument that a really small dose has a hormetic effect to it, but there's no benefit to this. No, no.

54:20The data shows it's all bad for you. Yeah.

54:21Adam Schafer:It's all bad for you. Interesting. So no matter how much you drink, Z-Biotics is a good idea.

54:27Sal Di Stefano:So interesting. that cigarettes and alcohol would be the thing that does it. All the things that we do to our body.

54:33Adam Schafer:The two worst offenders. Pretty much. Come on. Party poopers. Did you guys see the changes that In-N-Out is making?

54:43Sal Di Stefano:Yes. Isn't that cool? Did you see it just then? All the dyes, changing the seed oils they're cooking in. They're not going to have cheese anymore. Right after they left California. Yeah, it's like, oh, hey.

54:56Adam Schafer:No, no. Well, you remember the first move.

54:58Sal Di Stefano:You announced on the podcast when the founder pushed back on trying to get rid of all the Bible verses and everything like that. And so they stood their ground with that. And then now they're making the move with all the different - Well, check this out.

55:09Adam Schafer:So yellow number five is going to be replaced with turmeric. Red number 40 is going to be replaced with beta carotene or vegetable juice. High fructose corn syrup. Sugar. They're now getting rid of high fructose corn syrup. Wow. Cotton seed oil has been removed from the buns. Calcium propionate is now natural enzymes in the buns. No more artificial vanilla in their shakes. Now it's going to be natural vanilla. And they're also, so they've upgraded their ketchup to have real sugar instead of high fructose corn syrup. And their fries, they're actually investigating and researching other oil options for better fries.

55:47Adam Schafer:I don't know what oil they use right now. I don't think it's peanut oil. I think it might be.

55:50Sal Di Stefano:It's not peanut oil. that's for uh that's five guys yeah can i say that i i i am i don't like and it annoys me the fitness people that dunk on this because with that because like when when you know the whole uh make america healthy again it made movements towards changing the oils and everyone's just attacking seed oil like seed oil is the thing that's making everybody fat and it's like yeah they just scoff at it and that's their answer yeah and i just i don't again this is another area where it's like okay listen i don't disagree that you know uh french fries and any oil is not an ideal every little step's good exactly it's it's moving us it's less crap yeah encourage

56:34Adam Schafer:companies to think about these things really yeah it's like it's like a trainer options scoffing at a client because they you know they walk i just walk because they walk that's not a

56:42Sal Di Stefano:workout that's exactly what exactly that's why it bothers me it comes to mind is this like a lot of fitness yes you're right if someone just walked uh they could still be obese and they could still not have muscle and all those things but hey it's a it's a it's a positive step in a better direction yeah and so if companies are getting rid of these dyes and they're changing the oils that they're cooking food in for a better version of that i don't like fitness people that dunk on that it's just not choose a choose something else to go down my kids this is just personal stupid algorithm content.

57:16Adam Schafer:Yeah. This is my, so my kids, uh, fall in this category. Um, so again, this is my own anecdote, but my kids, when they have red number 40 in particular, it's like I gave them, uh, it's like I gave them a, like a Fedra. It's like I gave them ADHD. Yeah. Literally. Like when I, when they have red number 40, they act different. And if it's too close to bed, they can't sleep. And I noticed this, the first time I picked up on this, we were in Arkansas visiting Jessica's mom. And we were all, we had gotten all these trailers. So she had a little bit of land. So we had all these trailers. We're sleeping out there.

57:52Adam Schafer:And my daughter got a fever. And she was real young at the time. She was like maybe two, maybe one and a half, two. And we gave her Tylenol. And Tylenol, unless you get dye-free, it's got red number 40 in it because they make it cherry flavor. So it's red. Anyway, we gave her Tylenol, which helps her fever. and all night she was up all night and she was weird she was like giggly and then cry and then i'm like man is it her fever like what's going on second night same thing happened wasn't until i started kind of putting it together we gave her the die free and she was totally fine and since then we've tested if they have like gummy bears or anything with red number 40 especially if it's in a decent amount it makes them like they have adhd like really bad it affects their cns and i know other parents that this is the case as well.

58:40Adam Schafer:So I'm glad they're getting rid of it.

58:42Sal Di Stefano:There's an effect there, yeah. Yeah, nonetheless, again, I just think it's a terrible thing to go pick something else to hammer and stuff like that. Because then again, it gets - Not good enough. You know, that's fine. Okay, dude. Yeah, yeah.

58:54Adam Schafer:Better than nothing. Dom. Oh, yeah, yeah. Keon aminos are the part of protein your body uses to build and repair muscle without anything else. No digestion load. No tons of calories. 40 % leucine-enriched formula like Keon's aminos is required to stimulate whole body protein synthesis. What's that? It's muscle building. After 30 dieting GLP-1s, your body gets less efficient at using protein for food. Keon aminos bypass that problem. They're clinically validated at 40 % leucine threshold. In other words, if you're taking essential amino acids, it needs to be 40 % leucine. that's the threshold for muscle building for protein synthesis if you're taking essential amino acids and the leucine is too low you're not utilizing all of it so Keon aminos are the best one go check them out go to getkeon.com slash mind pump that link will get you 20 off back to the show our first caller is Patricia from Utah hi Patricia how you doing hey oh first of all I I mean, the usual, thank you guys for everything you do.

1:00:02I've been listening for about a year and you guys rock.

1:00:05Adam Schafer:Oh, thank you. Yeah. I'll go ahead and kind of like summarize my background and then come in with my question. But I'm currently 23 years old, female, about 145, 150 pounds, five foot seven. I haven't done a full body scan in a while, but around like 15 % body fat is I think what I'm usually getting. I grew up a competitive soccer player and then got into weightlifting in college with my boyfriend and he showed me how to do everything and got really into all the newbie gains. Those were very exciting. I graduated college about a year ago and have since moved to Utah and have been doing all the hiking and skiing and kind of just random things.

1:00:46I've done Spartan races, Tough Mudders, Marathon, Triathlon. And the past two months I've kind of taken a break and just done like the free summer yoga classes. But I think I'm ready to kind of get into like more of a routine. And now that I'm in my adult life, kind of building up to just like a strong foundation, I guess. So my question really for you guys is being a young female, kind of what should I do next? Yeah.

1:01:12Adam Schafer:Good question. So how did you tell me about grad school, by the way, what are you going to school for? Sources and shoes. Thank you. This horse is engineering. Okay, cool. Okay, so you're kind of, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're kind of a go-getter. So, like, you make a goal, you get after it, which is great, but it could also be a challenge, like, just because you're past competitive soccer, lots of hard competitions, lots of getting after it with your workouts. Probably, I don't think you're someone that's challenged with being consistent. You're probably challenged with not working out, like, need to take breaks.

1:01:50Adam Schafer:how has the last two months felt for you since you've done that? Um, it's been good. I've enjoyed yoga, but I definitely miss the gym. I feel like I'm not really doing anything, which I'm not the biggest fan of.

1:02:04Sal Di Stefano:You're also hiking and skiing. Is that right? Or is that going on? Give me, give me also outside of lifting weights. What else are you also doing? Um, the hike, we hike in the summer and then skiing in the winter. So going to the national parks, road trips on the weekends, um, I think I've done five or six hikes this summer. It's not every weekend, but pretty active all the time, I would say.

1:02:28Adam Schafer:Okay, good. You know, if you want a goal, the best goal that I could point you in the direction of that I think would help with a lot of other things would be strength. It's not perfect because you can go too far with that too. But it might give you kind of what you're looking for in terms of like something to chase. but I also think it would, it would point you in a kind of healthy direction. The only challenges, uh, is going to be all the other stuff you're doing on top of it. So, and I need to know like more specifics. So like how many days a week would you say you're doing something very active?

1:03:01Um, right now two to three, I think I do two yoga classes during the week and then maybe a hike on the weekends if we're not super busy with.

1:03:09Adam Schafer:Oh, that's fine. Yeah. That's okay. And yoga is what? Is it power yoga or are you doing like yin yoga? Um, I think it's one of each. It really depends on the week. It's just the free. Okay. Like classes or whatever. How do you feel about getting really strong at like the core lifts, like power lifting? I would love to. I think it would be really fun. I would just be kind of worried about form and stuff since I'm not used to it. I haven't really done it before and I definitely don't want to get hurt. Yeah. So be very careful with technique and smart, which I think you will be. uh, but maps power lift will be a really fun program for someone like you to get like PRS with your deadlift or squat and your bench.

1:03:44Adam Schafer:Now, the other side of that is, is diet. And I'm, I'm looking at what you wrote and you have some food intolerance issues and stuff like that. Is that prevent, is that preventing you from eating enough? Um, I don't think so. It's just, I know protein's a big deal and I know you guys talk about it and I hear it and I try very, very hard, but like the protein shakes, I just can't get it down. And sometimes I struggle to just eat enough chicken or eat enough beef to hit the goals. And so I just, I don't know any tips or advice on that would be very helpful.

1:04:17Sal Di Stefano:Yeah. We have some tips. Um, do you have a regular menstrual cycle? Okay, cool. I'll just care. You have 15%, uh, and maybe low on some of the healthy fats and, and, and proteins would concern me a little bit, but if you have a healthy menstrual cycle, That's a good sign. Have you tried different types of protein shakes too? Like, you know, sometimes like I'm not a big fan of like really thick and like type of shakes. So things like Paleo Valley's bone broth is almost like drinking chocolate milk. It's so thin and easy to kind of pound. And so that's a strategy. I love things like Greek yogurt and they make brands that have like 20 grams in like a small cup.

1:04:58Sal Di Stefano:and so something real quick and easy with berries uh that i can eat or do um you've probably heard if you listen to the show long enough uh making a whatever you have for dinner whatever meat that is carrying it over into the morning with like a scrambled like you know scramble a couple eggs with it those are good strategies uh most my clients that struggle with hitting protein and that's hard for them it's the breakfast breakfast so i always talk to them about when the morning and it sets the day up. And so focusing really on making sure that you start the day with a good 30 to 45 grams of protein really sets you up for success.

1:05:37Sal Di Stefano:Otherwise it's tough. You're playing catch up the rest of the day.

1:05:40Adam Schafer:Have you ever tracked to see kind of what you're average with your calories? I haven't in a long time. I did probably sophomore year of college just when I was first getting into it. And then I kept forgetting to track it. Okay. Can I ask you more personal questions? Yeah. uh do you have any do you ever have a history of like restricting or maybe a challenging relationship with food so you don't have a problem eating no i've always been pretty good i'll always clean my plate it's just getting big enough i think yeah so so you're gonna schedule your meals uh and you're gonna have to kind of make it like every three hours yeah more frequency and meal prep and and eat that'll make a big difference you do that with power lift and you're going to get real strong.

1:06:21Adam Schafer:Intimidating. Yeah. No, you'll love it. Listen, you'll love it. The video demos in there are really, really good. Um, you're, I mean, you have an analytical brain, obviously. So you just watch technique, perfect it. Technique plays a huge role in powerlifting. So powerlifting is very technique focused. Like if I want somebody to learn how to squat deadlift and bench press better than anybody else, I'm going to send them to a powerlifting coach because they know how to do those better than anybody else. So, so it's very, very technique heavy.

1:06:46Sal Di Stefano:You might be a great candidate, too, for our concierge program where you just check in with a coach once a month and then you can send videos of your technique and form. So, like, video yourself squatting, doing those movements, and they'll coach you, even virtually. Yeah. So, and it's a lot more reasonable than, I mean, hiring a personal trainer one-on-one would be awesome. Sometimes that's out of a lot of people's budget to have a coach one-on-one. That would be ideal when you're trying to get good at this. But at the very least, doing like our concierge with our trainers, they can help coach you through that process and get you good at it.

1:07:21Yeah. And I mean, there's master class in there as well. So, you know, really go through some of those videos. It'll, you know, spell out a lot of the details. Sometimes that helps, you know, people to really dive into a lot of those details and apply them. And, you know, and you don't have to be intimidated by adding a lot of weight in the beginning, you know, keeping it light and just, you know, really form in mechanics. focused uh and then yeah having another set of eyes would be you know a really good idea would power lift be something that i guess once i finish the whole program to just kind of

1:07:53Adam Schafer:restart and just keep building off of you could uh although i like following that up with symmetry

1:07:59Sal Di Stefano:yeah i mean yes and i mean i if it's her first time through a lot of times i like to run it twice she could because you're kind of getting used to building it yeah you're still building it so you I would run it twice and then go to symmetry, like you're saying. Since you're kind of new to those lifts and getting good at those lifts, the practice of going through it twice. We typically will tell someone symmetry or performance because you're doing all these sagittal plane movements, and if you get really, really strong in just the sagittal plane and you don't address unilateral work, then that's where the joints and stuff starts on you.

1:08:31Sal Di Stefano:But somebody who's just getting started in it, I'm picturing you going through it the first time more cautiously, really working on technique and not loading it that much the second time around kind of pushing the strength and pushing the technique and pushing the weight a little more and then go to symmetry i think would be ideal gotcha but again too this is also stuff that if you do the concierge with their coach they'll they'll coach you through that process on what that looks like too

1:08:57Adam Schafer:okay sweet yeah so we're gonna send that to you go get strong yeah my best yeah keep us fun with it yeah yeah sure yeah we'd love to have your hair out goes okay we'll do all right thank you yeah thank you guys so much bye-bye that'll be fun for her it'll put a pointer in a good direction um you know the one thing that and i'm glad she said she would do that because the one thing i'd be worried about for someone like her just based off her email is that she just do too much too much stuff all the time uh but you know getting

1:09:29Sal Di Stefano:stronger is hard to do when you're doing too much she's got some serious muscle on her 150 pounds and 15 body fat on a chick is like legit very well she played competitive soccer and she yeah she's probably so uh probably has some serious muscle building potential so if that's she's if she's anywhere even if she's north or south of that she'll probably be good immediately yeah yeah she's gonna she's gonna build some muscle dude 15 body fat 150 that's just some serious muscle already. Our next caller is Vanessa from Colorado.

1:10:02Adam Schafer:Hi, Vanessa. Hey guys. Wow. Surreal. So amazing to get some advice from you guys. Thanks for just being there, like in my journey, you've really helped to motivate me. So thank you so much. I wrote everything down just cause I'll get off track and I added a question. So hopefully that's okay. I'm 43 years old. I currently weigh like anywhere between 161, 165, 5-4. And the biggest thing I think that might be impacting me is last year, I found out that I was in postmenopause, so low testosterone and estrogen. So I think I don't know if that's impacting my journey or not. I've yo-yo dieted, I've done everything in the book, took GLP last year, lost like 20 pounds, gained it back, listened to your advice and kind of weaned myself off that.

1:10:52And then this year I started really like doing a four day a week program, upper lower body since like February. And I'm very consistent. So super motivated there. Right now though, I've only lost like 2 % body fat on the journey there. I've probably put about eight pounds of muscle on and I've reversed dieted from 1850 calories. And then in June, I went up to 2 ,400 and I've been right around there and keeping it there. Um, I step about 8 ,000 to 12 ,000 steps a day. And, um, I'm just wondering, like right now I have been working with a trainer and the upper lower body, I jumped into your guys's upper lower body, um, six weeks ago.

1:11:39And, um, that feels great. Just everything's a little bit different. So I feel like I'm really seen like just changes in my muscle in different ways. So that's good progress there. But I feel like I'm in a plateau when it comes to like fat loss. I don't know if I'm eating too much or like, like I said, my weight gain is just, it kind of stays between that five pound range. And let's see, I also don't eat too much on days that I work well that I don't work out. And then I eat more on the days that I do. And then also just wondering if maybe peptides is something I should consider.

1:12:14Adam Schafer:Okay. Well, thanks for calling in. So you're averaging 2 ,400 calories a day when you average out the high and low days. Yep. Okay. Well, no, cause I guess if you put it that way, probably around like 22 to 23. Okay. So what's a low day and what's a high day? Low day, maybe 2000 high day 24. Okay. I see. Okay. So that's good. Um, and then you said your post-menopause, this was based off of just hormone profile. Do you mind if I ask your age? shit 43 yeah 43 okay oh wow you look a lot younger okay okay so all right so so i think you're doing everything right you're doing a great job you're doing really what you came from

1:12:49Sal Di Stefano:on uh the reverse diet and the amount of muscle you built and body fat percentage changes is phenomenal especially a post-menopausal that's phenomenal it's phenomenal that's you've done a really good job just so you know eight pound muscle gain is incredible and two percent body Yeah, and the reverse diet, all the things, and being post-menopausal. It's not easy when your hormone profile is off like that. It does make everything exponentially more difficult. I mean, I've openly discussed this on the podcast many times. My most challenging clients as a young trainer was helping women through menopause, especially back then 20 years ago when we had way less tools, I feel, or communication around it.

1:13:29Sal Di Stefano:So I was lost as a young trainer many times trying to help someone. It's very, very difficult. are you uh are you taking anything right now they have you on thyroid or testosterone or anything yeah i'm just doing like a testosterone estrogen cream and it's pretty low um and then i'm on like amino acids and stuff like that just after like a powder that i got at lifetime that i'm that's

1:13:52Adam Schafer:the gym that i go to so so you're doing great uh i think you're doing a lot of things right in fact everything i've heard so far i haven't heard anything that i would say you're doing wrong you're on hormones so that's going to help with that and you have a past of going up and down the yo-yoing so what we want to do is stay away from that we don't want to yo-yo anymore and I think that's kind of what you're communicating like I'm out of that phase I don't want to keep doing that I don't want to do that anymore so what that essentially means is you got to be patient because you're doing all the right stuff now if we push you in a cut averaging 2200 calories we will run the risk of doing the yo-yo thing um and your calories really aren't that low to do uh kind of an effective cut i mean we'd have to bring you down like you mean high yeah not high enough sorry so we'd have to bring you down to like 1600 calories with uh which wouldn't feel that good you would see some weight loss on the scale but then you plateau and then we kind of be you know uh in a worse position honestly i mean you're doing eight to twelve thousand steps a day your strength training, hormones are getting balanced.

1:14:57Adam Schafer:You've built eight pounds of muscle. You're, you're, I honestly, you should slowly reverse diet.

1:15:03Sal Di Stefano:Keep going on the reverse diet. Keep trying to get, keep trying to get stronger and add calories would be ideal. I was wondering, like, should I go higher? Yes, absolutely. Keep, keep adding strength, keep adding calories, keep going that direction. And you don't end the cut though. That's well, I mean, so it's different for everybody. generic answer someone your age height weight all the things I want about 2800 or above but if you were at let's say we're at 2800 and you are telling me you still have an appetite I would keep pushing you now let's say you're at 2800 and you're like Adam this feels like so much food okay then I'll probably start to bring you back down so I think you can easily support working up to 20 based off your activity level strength all the things you 2800 calories or more is where I'd be taking you.

1:15:54Sal Di Stefano:And more would be, I would love to get you at 2 ,800. We haven't seen much movement on the scale. You've probably hovered around the same, even if we put a couple of pounds on the scale, not really worried. Like I'd want you kind of hovering around within five pounds of where you're at and all the way up to 2 ,800. And then in a perfect world, you're telling me I could eat more. And then I just, great, let's keep going that way. Until finally you look at me and you go like, okay, this is a lot of food out of this. Now it's becoming like a lot of work to eat this much. And now we have runway. And yeah, now that's typically a good place because it feels very comfortable to go, you know what, just knock one of those meals off or cut your portion size on this, these two meals in half.

1:16:30Sal Di Stefano:And like, you feel comfortable eating that much, you still feel satisfied and it's now putting you in a deficit. And now you're just leaning out nicely and you find this kind of beautiful, comfortable place to stay and you achieve the goal you're looking for.

1:16:43Adam Schafer:Yeah. Vanessa, are you open to working with a mind pump coach for the nutrition part? I know you're working with a trainer for your workouts, but are you open to working with one of our coaches? Yeah, I've always had an issue with nutrition and what's the right thing to eat. So yeah, I would consider that. Okay. Let me have someone call you because they'll coach you through that process and it'll be very individualized. Yes. So you'll meet with them, but then also you'll be able to message them and be like, I feel like this. Is this right? Should I, what direction should I go? And then they can modify the whole way through to individualize it because a reverse diet is scary it's a scary process it's also it's been like way too easy that's the problem oh yeah that on i don't want that that's that's the scary part right and so the coach will walk you through that he'll guide

1:17:30Sal Di Stefano:you through that that's right yeah it's a it's a it's a weekly type of conversation of like how we feel and how you doing talking that's why too when you ask me how far it's hard to answer that because that could change. And I have this sometimes with the client. You'll get this with your coach. You guys are going along, reverse diet, and you're adding calories, adding calories. And then all of a sudden we get to a place where you don't feel good, you're discouraged, you're frustrated. And then sometimes I have to bring the client back down for a little bit. Okay, this is what we're going to do, Vanessa, for the next two weeks.

1:17:56Sal Di Stefano:I'm going to put you down to 23, 2400 calories. Then you see some results, you feel good. And then you're like, okay, let's go back up. And so a lot of that, that's the individual part that the coach will do with you. And through that process, you'll really learn how to control that yourself going forward. So very, very worthwhile to go through with the coach to give you that. Okay. And then I guess the other question was just, I did the upper lower body for so long that I jumped into your guys's. Should I have jumped into something else?

1:18:26Adam Schafer:Not necessarily. Yeah, that's a good program. PPL is a good program. Symmetry would be a good program. But since you're open to working with a coach, they're going to give you maps, Vanessa. Yeah, they can modify it. They're going to modify it specifically for you. And that'll be the best thing. That'll be better than any mass program that we could, you know, template we can give you. Okay. All right. Well, then that's positive news. Thank you. Awesome. Good job. You're doing great. Great job. Yeah. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I didn't catch her age when she was talking, so she said postmenopausal.

1:19:00Adam Schafer:I'm like, how did you get postmenopausal? Yeah, yeah.

1:19:03Sal Di Stefano:I mean, I heard her say it right away because I couldn't believe it. I saw it. I saw 43. Yeah, she's about 43.

1:19:07Adam Schafer:But yeah, she's doing everything right. At this point, and people, I know, I understand how frustrating this is to hear. Like, oh, be patient. Like, you know, just like, I'm going to pull your hair out. But that is a big part of this process is being patient. You have to communicate that. And focusing on what's happened so far. What's happened so far, she's bumped her calories. Her weight hasn't really changed. She's gained eight pounds of lean body mass. Yeah. Phenomenal. That's great. Phenomenal. Our next caller is Kaylee from Arizona. Hi, Kaylee.

1:19:32Sal Di Stefano:Hi, Kaylee. Hi, guys. How are you? Good.

1:19:34Adam Schafer:Good. How are you doing? Good. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to speak with me. How can we help you? I work full time. I'm getting ready to go back to school. From a logging perspective, I usually average about 1 ,800 to 2 ,200 calories per day, typically 130 to 160 grams if I'm doing really well on protein. I've been working out four to five days a week, but I realize that's probably going to drop down. And I'm just scared of losing essentially the muscle mass that I've gained in this two years impressively and kind of reverting backwards either by not feeding myself well enough or my training frequency going down with all of this high stress and movement that I'm about to go through.

1:20:14So just kind of wanting your guidance on how, one, I can preserve what I've achieved, but also continue to see growth and increase and factoring in all that stress and change.

1:20:23Adam Schafer:Oh, perfect. Okay. And I see you're, I'm going to be looking, I'm looking at your email right now. So you've been working out for about seven years and the last two years, really good workout programming. You train at home, but you also do Peloton strength classes and some barre classes on the weekend. Yes. And then you work through the week and on the weekend, it says you also bartend. So you're working a lot.

1:20:44Sal Di Stefano:Yeah.

1:20:45Adam Schafer:Okay. And now tell me about your, your, uh, workout, all of the workouts you do. So how many days a week are you doing some kind of a workout, whether it's Peloton bar or lifting weights? Um, typically I've been trying to practice your guys' recommendation on trying an upper and lower. So I've been doing consecutively, like Tuesday through Friday, upper and lower. And then if my energy permits, that's when I'm doing the bar classes on the weekend. So it can be four days a week. It can be six. It kind of just depends. Okay. And then how's your sleep? From the Oura Ring perspective, it says good.

1:21:17I'm averaging like 88 as my sleep score. And sometimes I get like 96. But I don't know, sometimes I still feel like I don't fully feel rested. And I know stress plays a role in that too. I think even in my email, I mentioned like some digestive stress, obviously, from trying to increase my feeding window or my protein, but also trying to optimize pre-feed and post-feed and not eat too close to bedtime and all of that.

1:21:43Sal Di Stefano:So I got, I'll tell you exactly why you feel that way. It's not, and the fact that you're scoring that high on sleep is you just, you do a lot and don't eat a lot for someone who does as much as you do. yeah that's why I figured it was that's why you feel that way because like you're getting great the fact that you're scoring 80s and 90s on your aura means you are doing a good job and you're probably exhausted while you're crashing out like that and why you probably still feel even after good great nights of sleep like that still feel like man I feel like I'm still it's because you're you're low calorie for the amount of training volume and activity on and then that's not even factoring like outside stress of just work and all the things pressures and whatever like you are physically doing a lot for somebody who's only eating 2 ,000 or so calories.

1:22:27Sal Di Stefano:That's really low.

1:22:28Adam Schafer:Yeah, so the good news is this, Kaylee. Reducing your training volume is not going to make you lose muscle. You'll probably be better. You'll probably get stronger. In fact, I would do that right now. I'll put her on Mass 15. Right now, you're going to get better results by doing that. So redlining, or kind of doing what you can tolerate, which sounds like that's kind of where you live, increases inflammation inflammation and contributes to digestive issues. Okay. So, uh, the fact that you're doing so much and eating not enough to support that, uh, you're putting yourself kind of in this place.

1:23:03If you cut your training way down, bumped your calories, you would see a strength gain happen

1:23:08Adam Schafer:within week or two, week one or two within week, within the first couple of weeks you see strength go up and that's how you know, you're moving in the right direction. Yeah. It's interesting. Like this, I think you guys did an episode. I want to say a couple months ago where you referred to a study of like how one week off from a typical four week training can actually like double time your muscle retention just because of the recovery. And so I'm like three days into a recovery and like, I almost feel like I've been working out harder just because I feel like my body's like, ow, like you haven't listened to any of the recovery stuff.

1:23:38So now you need a foam roll and red light and all this stuff. So it's so funny. I could literally hear you guys saying this to me and it's, but it's nice to hear it reinforced.

1:23:47Adam Schafer:What's your three day recovery? What are you doing? As of late, it's just been really like stretching, just kind of like rolling into the motion of where my body will let me go. Kind of just not like forcing myself to do anything tense, like even housework where you can like really zone into the stress of the movement. So kind of just like sitting there, breathing exercises. I do have a foam roller as well, but mostly just stretching, trying to work out some kinks. Okay, good. So do that for the full week. okay so no workouts for a full week just kind of make yourself feel better i'm going to send you so if you really want to blow your mind i'm going to send you max 15 take a week off so continue on this because we got four more days off start maps 15 see if you can get your calories up 200 a day so uh from 18 to 22 let's just let's aim for 23 to 2400 calories a day okay by the third by probably by the third workout you're going to be stronger okay okay okay and then you know like oh this is working.

1:24:46Yeah. Okay. And knowing that with the, uh, calorie increase, like I'm kind of averaging like five to six meals a day, like three large, and then obviously some snacks. Um, I guess what is your guys' more formal opinion on how to time that around a workout? Like I know I put in my email, I was kind of concerned with doing evening workouts because it was like, you know, ramping my heart rate up too close to sleep, but then eating all obviously also does the same thing are you guys like really strict on that like feeding time that's what you just said

1:25:16Sal Di Stefano:matters more than anything else how is it affecting my sleep how's it affecting my digestion as far as the protein calories around the workout that weren't that doesn't it's so irrelevant yeah so so like you need your body needs what it needs macro wise as far as protein and so that so that becomes a priority but sleep and digestion are one and two yeah are you familiar with the the the best data on like timing meal timing uh not as of the like the best or most recent it's it's

1:25:46Adam Schafer:it's literally it's like splitting hairs on splitting hairs yeah okay it matters here's when it matters when you have a a professional athlete who's going to train twice a day what this is all they do this is their job and so that the meal timing helps with the second workout okay okay it for you it's not going to make a difference at all yeah so don't even worry about it. You just eat, uh, you know, hit your calories, uh, follow math 15 and don't worry about meal. Like literally don't even worry about mealtime. It doesn't make a difference. Okay. Okay. I'm excited. It's just good to hear validated now.

1:26:22Adam Schafer:Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And you know, don't get caught up in the, in the little minutiae of all the little hacks and stuff like that, which, you know, uh, and I can see, uh, you know, that you, your, your normal job, it's, it's like, you know, a lot probably about supplements, uh you're you know into pharmacinetics you know so it's really fun to get into the details but they really don't make that big of a difference like they just don't so don't worry too much about it yeah uh and you'll like i said you'll know by the by the second week of following mass 15 and bumping your calories you you'll see strength difference it's going to trip you out for sure yep okay lean into that that's exciting and is maps 15 like more home friendly or should i have more access to a gym as well.

1:27:02Adam Schafer:Very home friendly. Oh, beautiful. Okay. What do you have at home? Awesome. Do you have a barbell, dumbbells, bench? What do you got? Yeah, I have eight pounds up to 42 pounds and then two barbell with 25 pound plates. So I just do a lot of like plane of motion, free weight stuff. Oh, you're good. You're good. Yeah, you got plenty. Okay. Yeah, you'll do great. Okay. Awesome. I really appreciate you guys. Thank you so much. You got it. Thank you. Thank you. The irony is she's afraid of losing muscle. She's going to gain muscle. I know. Yeah.

1:27:29Sal Di Stefano:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right away was like so glaring when she said her sleep scores were so good. She still felt tired. It's like you're crushing. You're definitely hitting. You're doing a good job in sleep. But you feel that way because your calories are so low. And you could do it a lot. I mean, can you not sense her energy? She's a go-getter. Yeah. Right? Like she's. She powers. She's working. She's getting ready to start school. She's also bartending on the side. She takes bar and Peloton and she hits four workouts a week. And doing all that on 2 ,000 calories is just not enough.

1:28:02Adam Schafer:What happens with, she's young, right? And you'll see this sometimes with 20-something-year-olds. She can handle it. They just push everything. These are the women that end up with really bad HPA axis dysfunction once they get into their mid to late 30s. It catches up. And they're like, what is going on? And it's because, yeah, you've been redlining for a long time. But doing what we said, she's going to blow her mind. Our next caller is Gabby from Australia. Hi, Gabby. Hi, Gabby. Hi. How are you? How can we help you? I'm good, thank you. I've been listening to you guys for about a year now, and you've really changed my perspective on fitness and health.

1:28:43I struggled with an eating disorder for 12 years. I've been a fashion model, and I've worked from age 17. Now I'm 31. so my story is quite complicated when it comes to food and health and yeah and I have yeah I've wanted to get stronger over the last two years I'm a mom of two kids and when I When my daughter was born, I have been completely free of my eating disorder tendencies, which has been wild. And I never thought that it would happen. And I'm eating more than ever and lifting weights. Before, I was so afraid to lift weights just to gain any sort of size as a fashion model. Yeah, so I'm here because I'm wanting a little bit more consistency with food mainly.

1:30:00Like obviously my relationship with food has been an interesting turbulent one. And I would love to have a little bit more input and advice in that. And I've built so much muscle in the last like three years has been wild. I'm so much stronger than I ever have been before. and my metabolism feels really like fiery. So I'm almost like, I feel like I'm eating too much, but I will then like have a day where I'm so hungry where I can't stop eating. Yeah, that's where I'm at now. All right.

1:30:48Adam Schafer:Well, thank you so much for calling in, Gabby. So when I read your email and you mentioned this, um you it was after having your your your child things your daughter where you felt this kind of lift would you mind if it's okay would you mind explaining what that felt like what what was it with that experience uh that that that brought that away from you what was that like for you yeah um I don't know I've probably been in recovery for so many years prior I've wanted to change. I've wanted to, I've wanted to be different. So I've done all the steps. And then as soon as my daughter was born, there was just this thing in me that was almost like, no more, I can't do this anymore.

1:31:39This can't happen anymore. And like, I'm a Christian, I believe in God. And it was like a divine moment of freedom when she was born.

1:31:53Adam Schafer:That's wonderful. Awesome. Yeah. I'm so glad you shared that. Um, I've, so I've, I've trained clients who've had a similar experience, uh, to what you're describing. I've also had clients that have gone in the opposite direction. So the feeling of, uh, and you know this cause you're a mom, the feeling that your body's not yours. So now suddenly I can't control everything. It can either push people in the direction of trying to control even more, or it can push people in the direction of like, I can't control this. I'm going to surrender to this. And then you have the added benefit of having a baby that you just fall in love with.

1:32:26Adam Schafer:And so I've had people have a similar experience. I do want to say and add to this, first off, you're doing a great job, that because you lived in that way for so long and you did it during during formidable years, so your teenage years, that is a default pattern that's going to rear itself potentially when things get very difficult or stressful. So the challenge isn't, oh God, I got to worry about this thing. That's not what I'm saying. But keep in your mind when you start to feel those old feelings back, don't be ashamed and say, I thought I defeated this. because that could also, that can make things feel a lot worse.

1:33:07Adam Schafer:The best thing you can do around that, and I'll get more detailed with diet and stuff like that, but the best thing you can do around that is always bring it to the light. Yeah. So always, so you're a Christian, I'm assuming you go to a church. Yeah, I do. You want to share that with the people that you're close to at church as soon as it starts to come up. Yeah. There's a biblical backing for that. It's about confession. And then psychologically, when you bring it to the light, it's like putting, you know, it's like taking bacteria and shining light on it. It can't survive. In the dark, it grows.

1:33:43Adam Schafer:And so you may feel like this thing's coming up. And I told all these people I've defeated it. It's part of my testimony, but now it's coming up. I don't want to tell them. I don't want to share that I'm struggling with this thing. I think I can do this on my own. I feel ashamed because I told everybody I got over it. That's the worst thing you could do. The best thing you could do is bring it to those people. And that right there is going to help you the most. It's going to help you the most with this process. As far as diet is concerned, getting stronger is the best possible thing you could do.

1:34:17Adam Schafer:And I think if you focus on moving in that direction, the nutrition is going to support that. The nutrition is going to support that the whole time. Yeah, absolutely. And so it's going to be eating regularly. So there's a couple of things that can trigger dysfunctional eating. The obvious stuff is like focusing on body all the time. So studying yourself in the mirror, studying pictures of yourself, like that could trigger it. Stress, like feeling out of control can kind of trigger it. So be aware with that kind of stuff. But also what can trigger it is going for long periods of time without food and then following it up with periods of time where you're eating so quickly that it feels like a binge.

1:34:56Adam Schafer:Okay. So eating regularly, staying on a schedule is one of the things you can do, uh, that'll help with that. Uh, so try not to skip meals. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I've been, yeah, I've been doing that and it really does definitely help. Yes. Um, and I'm, so you're probably eating good protein and supporting strength gains because you're talking about all the muscle that you've gained. Yes. Okay, that's good. And then do you coach anybody? No, I don't at the moment. That is very helpful for people. To coach other people can oftentimes be very helpful for the stuff for yourself. So obviously you work out, you look like you work out, you're part of a community, you volunteer and offer to help other people.

1:35:52Adam Schafer:That's another great way to kind of keep you in the right place with all of this. Yeah. Great. Yeah. But I mean, great success story. Yeah. It's been, it's been a wild one. Talk about how different it must feel. How different does it feel for you being strong and healthy versus, cause I know I've trained some fashion models And I know that that space really, it's very normal to feel tired, weak, to restrict yourself. So it's got to be such a drastic difference in how you feel. Yeah, absolutely. I have energy all day, which is wild. I'm not tired and hungry every afternoon. but just like and just the food focus is so different and that's the being the biggest thing like my husband is like our life is completely different now and he's like I can't even remember what it was like before but it was really hard and I'm like yeah yeah it was really really hard like I was a very young mom at 23 and um I was dealing with all of this when I had my son for for years and years and trying in the depth of an eating disorder while trying to parent while trying to work while trying to manage all these different things was like I was drowning I was completely drowning.

1:37:31And now to be a mom for the second time and actually able to give my child the attention and my family the attention without this heavy thing all consuming my mind is such an incredible, like, such an incredible experience.

1:37:55Adam Schafer:That's so awesome. So good. So what you just did by talking about the differences between the two is so powerful for future Gabby. So one thing you can do, and I don't know if you've done this, is write a letter or write down the ways I used to feel and how I feel now. And you write it out. And so the power of this is when you feel like, uh-oh, I'm feeling those old feelings start to creep up. you go back and you read this letter you go oh yeah that's why that's why i don't want to go back that's why i want to stay the course it's very it's a very it could be a very powerful tool for future gabby if those old uh you know feelings start to pop up again yeah absolutely yeah i had a client once do that uh with some substance abuse and he said that whenever he wanted to go back he would read this letter that he wrote uh while he was going through withdrawal.

1:38:56Adam Schafer:And so he wrote it when he was in withdrawal. So he read it and he's like, man, that kept me away, uh, like several times just reading that letter I wrote to myself. So it's just, just another idea. Yeah, absolutely. I really liked that idea. I do a lot of journaling. So that kind of goes hand in hand with that.

1:39:14Sal Di Stefano:That's so awesome. Gary, are you following one of our programs? I'd like to set you up with one if you're not. Um, I'm not at the moment. No.

1:39:21Adam Schafer:Okay. How many days a week are you working out? But I would love to, I would love to, um i'm probably around three times a week oh good but i have like some kettlebells and stuff at home to play around with so i can do little bits whenever do you want uh do you want to try to get really strong that kind of scares me so i come from a family my husband's family they're like all competitive lifters um his sister is ranked number one and holds record holds for like olympic lifting and stuff like that so i'm completely surrounded by that all the time and it terrifies me but but yes i i i understand the benefits and i i do want to be strong forever okay is it an exciting scary like okay i want to do this because if you if you are Yeah, like every time I lift heavier, I am excited.

1:40:28And I'm like, wow, this is amazing what my body can now do.

1:40:32Adam Schafer:All right, good. I'm going to send you math. So yes, yes. I'm going to send you math power lift. Let's get you to hit some PRs. Okay, amazing. Yeah, let's do that. And keep us posted. Let us know how it goes. Yeah, thank you so much. You got it. And I really appreciate you calling in. I think your call is going to help a lot of other people. Yes. no thank you this has been a really cool experience awesome great job gabby gabby we'll send that thank you bye-bye oh that's a nice that's a nice story what a tough world i don't know if you guys ever trained somebody that works in that space yeah so restrictive dude i man i had a client who was like smoking cigarettes so she it's it's extremely rare for

1:41:15Sal Di Stefano:someone to go through that, especially anyone you've trained that's been there for four years or more to not come out with an eating disorder. Are you kidding me?

1:41:25Adam Schafer:That's the standard. It's promoted, yeah. It's all eating disorders. It's all dysfunctional. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's Mind Pump Media. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs.

1:42:03With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mind Pump.